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The Forum > Article Comments > Afghanistan's ugly truth > Comments

Afghanistan's ugly truth : Comments

By Mariam Rawi, published 24/5/2006

A country where women are not counted as human beings and are treated worse than cattle.

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It is somewhat frightening that we have here in Australia moslems with the same mind-set. It is somewhat frightening that we have here in Australia those who would impose the stinking, foul, obscene, misogynistic sharia law. It is somewhat frightening that we have here in Australia those who preach that democracy and pagan islam cannot co-exist. Please I ask that all readers of this story about Afghan women GO TO THE HOME PAGE [RAWA] and be enlightened about the true aims of this brutal, death-loving, foul, pagan religion. Remember as I have stated in previous posts moslems are allowed and encouraged to lie to all unbelievers, it's stated in their miserable lying koran,it even has a name/title it's "al-taqiyya" I add this because there will be moslems who say they are moderates and they decry this shown brutality against (Afghan) women. Then there's the flamin 'bleeding hearts' who will see me as a hater of islamics. When of course as I have stated I only hate their murderous, lying, despicable religion. numbat
Posted by numbat, Wednesday, 24 May 2006 10:12:34 AM
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In Afghanistan, we see the modern version of the world of the Old Testament.

On a tribal level it is....

'Rule or be Ruled'
'Kill or be killed'

It is impossible to understand the situation in Afghanistan through western eyes or values.

Mariam is looking for some light it seems.. something to give more freedom to Afghan women.

Mariam, ask yourself this "If the US cannot or WILL not destroy the power of the warlords, and force them to change their cultural (enslaving women) and agricultural (growing drugs) practices... then who can or will ?

If you want freedom of the kind you speak, LEAVE the place. You would have to emmigrate, but are unlikely to be accepted as a refugee, just a normal migrant.

Another possibility, (see next paragraph) is embrace Christ as your Savior and Lord, as you indicated this brought INSTANT and WORLD WIDE attention to the region in the case of the Muslim convert.

I would never suggest embracing Christ for any other reason that that he is Lord, Savior, forgiver of sin, and coming again.

Perhaps in Him, you will find what you are looking for, the true freedom of the soul.

I've got a few reservations on your terminology "Revolutionary" ? huh ? that is sounding rather left wing/marxist to me.

I regret to have to inform you, that a) that is a failed ideology, and b) There is no country these days willing or interested in sponsoring such movements.

So, I conclude that Afghanistan is basically a basket case.

Stalin might have a few ideas.. exiling every last man woman and child as he did for the Chechens and viola.. no more Chechen problem.
Since they have been allowed to return,... voila.. ANOTHER Chechen problem.

The is as much likelihood of WarLords listening to yelling screaming activists as a snowflake suriving the fires of hell.

They exist by power, and status, and have no interest in seeing that undermined by noisy women.

You have 2 choices. War on the Warlords and change the culture,- or get out of the place.
Posted by BOAZ_David, Wednesday, 24 May 2006 11:58:27 AM
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Isn't RAWA a Maoist organisation? Who said communism is dead?

It is true that many women are treated worse than cattle in Afghanistan. But I doubt a Maoist group would have much to offer other than outdated revolutionary slogans.
Posted by Irfan, Wednesday, 24 May 2006 12:37:04 PM
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Oh dear, another tirade against the Koran from Numbat when the topic goes far deeper.

I'm not trying to justify what's in the Koran but you should remember women aren't treated any better in the Bible.

Second-class citizens whose opinions are valueless and should not be heard, to be considered untrustworthy and not holy to God and so on.

I think women get short-shrift from most religions, one way or another.

Oh and just for the record, I don't hate brocolli.

I just hate the way it looks and how it smells, feels and tastes.
Posted by wobbles, Wednesday, 24 May 2006 1:20:27 PM
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Miriam

'Good on ya'. You have great courage. No doubt you are muslim. I think we all understand the religion of Islam has been twisted and used by the misogynists, warlords, fundamentalists and others.

Women in the west agitated for exactly the freedoms you are wanting, just over a hundred years ago. Their cause and battle was not against a society dominated by religious fanatic's however they faced, as you face, a culture dominated by men.
They won their equality of rights with the support of their husbands, brothers and fathers.

Irfan

I am sure if maoism or communism had existed in those times many women would have become members...just as my forefathers and mothers were founding members of the labour movement. That movement, before it was reduced to the empty and deceptive shell it is today, saw decent working conditions and standards introduced and enforced across our society. Most of us today reject the labor movement in much the same way communism and maoism have been rejected. However at some point all those movements had a contribution and were an effective catalyist to change or at least were of some influence in changing existing ideas and norms.

How is your criticism relevant? Do you wish to see circumstances change for the women of Afghaqnistan? Don't you think all or any agitative and positive endeavours in achieving equality for Afghan women worthwhile?

David

I don't think public championing of any religion is any sort of reasonable answer. The Islamists and Islamic fundamentalists are absolute proof of that.
Posted by keith, Wednesday, 24 May 2006 2:08:26 PM
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Women are treated better in the West because of the triumph of modern secular humanism over the fundamentalist forces of Christianity, The Islamic world is having a simular battle. The problem is many "good intended western Governments are empowering the fundamentalist rather then the moderates and secularist. This is the great problem, you can not force democracy on people they have to want it for themselves. But until they win their own freedom what freedom loving person can not want to help them win it. It’s a bit like bulling at school there really is no painless answer.

ps Numbat and BD have not so much seen the light but been blinded by it and now hide in the dark.
Posted by Kenny, Wednesday, 24 May 2006 2:10:17 PM
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Wobbles we are discussing Afghanistan TODAY not Biblical times. Such an obtuse statement points to a weak argument.
I think that no one but Afghans can change Afghanistan, no one but Iraqis can change Iraq .Certainly no European or American country or any one else at all has the right. Anymore than any Arab or any other country has the right to change us.
It is only through education and/or seeing the freedom that comes with democracy that will light a slow burning fuse and send the tyrannical war lord oppression to extinction.
For the sake of everybody every where, I hope it is soon.
Posted by mickijo, Wednesday, 24 May 2006 2:13:53 PM
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Hey,look at Australia before the Koran's treatment towards females.

I believe that Muslims got to the Aborigianl peoples of Australia long ago as the males are circumcised haven't got to cicumcising femles yet as Muslims do so that females cannot enjoy God given sexual feelings.
But the women of indigenous Australians are down trodden,abused ,have to walk behind the men,(as Muslims do) get the wood,have sex anytime anywhere.
They are beaten black and blue ,hit with iron bars ,killed , maimed ,treated worse that the mangy dogs that they keep, and are not allowed to speak out for fear of a curse or death by witchdoctors or gaddichee man.
These poor things, as are Muslim women just live in fear and humiliation daily as the do -gooders say leave them alone to work it out which never happens .
Same with Muslims women and kids in Afghanistan.
Where are the UN sanctions towards this evil relgion and ignored Aboriginal females and kids who are sexually,verbally and phsyically abuse 24/7?
Posted by dobbadan, Wednesday, 24 May 2006 2:14:58 PM
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Wobbles.. grrrr that comment about 'They were not treated any better in Biblical times' is plain wrong, its even a tad malicous.

Lets take an example from the book of SAMUEL

Regarding Hannah Elkanah's wife, [She said to her husband, "After the boy is weaned, I will take him and present him before the LORD, and he will live there always."
23 "Do what seems best to you," Elkanah her husband told her.]

Hmmmm did her opinion matter ?

Deborah.. was a judge and a ruler and military leader of Israel

Paul regarded Priscilla and Aquila as servants in the gospel.

OOPs.. he must have made a mistake there..he MENTIONED the woman.. Don't worry Wobbles I'll refer Paul to YOU for counselling so he can from this time on have the 'correct' low regard for women as you stipulate, and I'll speak to the editorial committee for the New Testament so they remove the verse mentioning the woman....

Puh-LEASE get out more in your reading and actually SEE what is there, rather than just regurgitating sorry over used myths and cliches.
Posted by BOAZ_David, Wednesday, 24 May 2006 2:31:12 PM
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Do we have any impartial data on the organisations for which this lady is speaking? One comment implies communist influence. On the other hand, what she claims does sound credible. But if so, Australian money is being poured down the drain, and the lives of Australian service personnel are being put at risk for no purpose. Overall, this is a very sad and depressing statement.
Posted by oldpro5, Wednesday, 24 May 2006 3:23:41 PM
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irfan: What in blue blazes do maoists have to do with the topic unless - Oh yeh they are also brutal, unmerciful pagans is that what you are saying?
Wobbles: 'I am not trying to justify what's in the koran' - OH YES and pigs fly!

I say again "I do not hate anyone from any other religion, I do not hate non-believers, I do not hate poor mis-guided, mis-led pagan moslems either". Yet I hate what they are doing I hate what they plan to do I hate that they want to make Australia a pagan moslem country with all that that means. numbat
Posted by numbat, Wednesday, 24 May 2006 3:50:24 PM
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Surely the issue is the treatment of women and how those who would treat them as second rate citizens can be brought into contemporary thinking. As a Lutheran Christian I fail to see how slagging other beliefs is going to prove particularly enlightening. It seems to me that that basically problems are caused by fundamentalist beliefs coming from all quarters. On reflection, sitting in a comfortable environment in a pleasant home whilst typing this is OK but if I were at the coal face either facing abuse or trying to stem it I might much stronger views about those perpetrating the abuse and how they might be prevented from doing so. How one changes a culture is a perplexing problem with no easy answers
Posted by schu46, Thursday, 25 May 2006 8:29:29 AM
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It seems that most people confuse religion with a combination of culture and fundamentalism.

Indonesia is the world's largest Muslim country whose former PM was a woman and I never once saw her in a burkha.

All countries whose governments are controlled by religious zealots are repressive.

As for the Biblical references against women here are a few to start -

Corinthians 14:34-35 : (women should not speak in Church. They should ask their husbands to explain things to them)

Timothy 2:11-14 (Women should not be teachers)

Colossians 3:18 and Ephesians 5:22-24 - (Women should always obey their husbands)

Leviticus 27:1-7 - (Men are worth more than women)

Timothy 5:5-6 - (Widows should pray all day and all night)

Timothy 2:9 and Corinthians 11:15 (Women should dress modestly and have long hair)

Ecclesiastes 7:26 and Numbers 30:12 (You can't trust a woman's promises)

Deuteronomy 22:23-27 and Leviticus 19:20 (Being raped is not punishable by death unless the woman is a slave or if it occurs outside the city)

Deuteronomy 20:13-16 and 21:10-13 (In war, women can be taken as slaves except in places the Lord gives His chosen people as an inheritance, where they are to be killed along with every other living thing.)

Timothy 5:9-15 (You should only help a widow under certain circumstances)

Luke 2:23 (Males are holy to God, not females)

Proverbs 7:5-27 (A woman that seduces a man is evil -- the man is just an innocent victim)

Exodus 21:7-10 (Rules for selling your daughter into slavery)

And so on.

The problem for women in places such as Afghanistan come from the implementation of social structures that are based primarily on religious interpretation rather than along humanist values.

It wasn't always the case in the Middle East. The concept of chivalry was introduced to the West by knights returning from the Crusades, who saw how much better the Muslims treated women.

I wonder when it all started to go wrong?
Posted by wobbles, Thursday, 25 May 2006 9:48:11 AM
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The Americans are blamed for all the failures in both Afghanistan and Iraq. Imagine the prevailing conditions in these countries if the Americans stood back with the rest of us and did nothing. It would be nice if we could retreat to the time when the Russians were in Afghanistan and have the US support the Russians rather than undermine them by supporting the Tali ban and its precursor the Mujahadeen.

What we seem to have are two destabilised countries on either side of a fanatical and crazed Iran with nuclear ambition and zeal to cleanse the world with their great firestick.

If Mariam and her RAWA group can bring some positives to this mess they deserve support.
Posted by SILLE, Thursday, 25 May 2006 10:22:02 AM
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SILLE,
Since the Americans were using the Mujahadeen to fight and bankrupt the Russians on their behalf it's unlikely they would have supported the Russians.
It was the US betrayal of the Afghans after the war plus the continuing military presence of the USA in Saudi Arabia (plus some Fundamentist thinking) that are the main cause of Islamic terrorism.
Imagine if the Russians used the same UN WMD excuse to invade Iraq before the Americans. I don't think they would be cheering them on from the sidelines.

Fundamentalism got a foothold in Iran when the USA, who put the Shah back into power and kept him there so long after his use-by date that by the time he left he had literally killed off all the moderate opposition. The only ones left to fill the void were the Ayatolla Khomeini and his buddies.
Strangely, while the Ayatolla was living in exile in France (after Saddam kicked him out of Iraq) his rent was being paid by the CIA.

The resulting weapons-for-hostages crisis gave encouragement to some of the other Arab states with a grudge against the US to try it on.

I think all this trouble is the result of the USA meddling in the affairs of other countries (from Central America to the Middle East) for their own self-interest.

Terrorism is now used as the excuse to implement their global strategy.

Sadly, everybody now suffers the consequences, including Afghani women.
Posted by rache, Thursday, 25 May 2006 11:30:16 AM
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wobbles: You know as much about pagan islam as you do about the Holy Bible. It's one thing being ignorant but to exhibit your ignorance is a little silly. numbat
Posted by numbat, Thursday, 25 May 2006 2:08:55 PM
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I don't know about the ideological connection to which Irfan refers above, however, I think his is a valid comment because he is raising one of a variety of international agendas or sympathies possibly at play over there.
Posted by Ro, Thursday, 25 May 2006 2:31:37 PM
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All these men who know it all wow. I was actually at Mariam's talk and actually heard her and saw her and watched her video of horrors being inflicted on Afghan women even today.

Here is the thing for all the chauvinists who think they know better - an Afghan family has just been "arrested" in the Torres Strait seeking protection in Australia. They have been told they will be shipped off to Nauru to be "processed" - there is a woman and a 9 year old child and to send them to Nauru will actually break Australian law.

Australia locked up hundreds of Afghan women in places like Woomera, forced them to beg for sanitary ware, forced them to answer to adult white men which is not something they had ever done before, they had never even seen white men before except as Russian soldiers.

I can tell you that Mariam is passionate, decent, caring and commendable - and I am a woman who actually knows dozens of Afghan women. Imagine sitting on the floor talking to a woman who was sold at the age of 12 and then locked up in Woomera and think about Roqia Bakhtiyari sold to her much older cousin at 15 - and then sent back with three girls aged 7, 10 and 13.
Posted by Marilyn Shepherd, Thursday, 25 May 2006 3:41:39 PM
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Wobbles

It all started to go wrong after the end of the Caliphate which coincided with the breakup of the Arab Empire and a return to the fundamental ideas of the Koran and the Teachings of the Prophet. About the time of the 11th century. Which of course was the approximate time of the first Crusades.

History lesson over :-)
Posted by keith, Thursday, 25 May 2006 5:07:55 PM
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Oh dear, Rache,

You've totally ignored the previous 1000 odd years. Terrorism has been undertaken by the Islamists and other assorted fundamentalists periodically during that time and it has always been aimed at groups or movements who held views opposed to their cock-eyed view of how everyone else should live and behave.

Not only that but generations of Afghan women have been suffering mistreatment for probably all those previous 1000 odd years. That didn't start with the Americans...
Posted by keith, Thursday, 25 May 2006 5:30:08 PM
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Numbat, as you have repeated the reference to Muslims as pagans I feel compelled to nitpick. Pagan is generally used by monotheists as a perjorative against polytheists, animists, atheists etc. To refer to Muslims as pagans is a nonsense. I'd suggest you find some other term of abuse.

Sadly, once again, this debate has once again gone so far off-topic as to be irrelevant.

Re RAWA: check the Wikipedia entry http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revolutionary_Association_of_the_Women_of_Afghanistan which summarises the arguments regarding RAWA's supposed Maoist origins. I don't know enough to judge, but it seems to me that any organisation that supports women's rights in Afghanistan has got to be a good thing.
Posted by Johnj, Thursday, 25 May 2006 8:16:55 PM
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Johnh, that's been tried before but numbat loves those adjectives (in between telling us how much he does not hate the dirty rotten pagan muslims). There is some interesting stuff on wikipedia which suggests that one of the meanings is "Non Christian" (or if you like the latin bit about civilian, non militant) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paganism also see the note at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paganism#_note-0
If you use the non christain meaning then numbat is spot on with that bit, if you use the non militant then correct for many but not others. One of the alternate meanings suggested in the earlier discussion was as a generalised slur which seems to fit the usage as well. As someone once said "By their fruits you shall know them".

Keith, good point, regardless of what the American's have done some of this stuff predates their activities.

Marilyn, I'm not sure if you noticed but Australia has also been locking up men and children of both genders. Not just women. Likewise I suspect that some of the Afgan men might have had some concerns about taking orders from women (whatever their colour). If they choose to come here then part of the reality of this country is that we have officials of a both genders and from a variety of races. That is a reality that anybody hoping to make their home in this country really needs to learn to deal with fast. Maybe a bit less thinking of these issues as womens issues and more as human issues might help (or have I misunderstood your post?).

R0bert
Posted by R0bert, Thursday, 25 May 2006 10:01:27 PM
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The quickest way to be TOTALLY ostracized from being considered a reasonable debating participant (for me) is when someone tells me that on Australian soil, we have to cow tow to someone elses culture when they roll up on our shores !

"Women..not used to answering to strange adult men".. err. SO WHAT ! ?

It matters not one scrap or iota that cultural traits of assylum seekers is thus and so, what matters is that they have come HERE, and newsflash.. the culture here is OURS.. so they adapt without question.

Marilyn.. you have this habit of alienating those you seem to want to persuade.. and abusing them... there is some neuronic disfunction there mate....its like "man approaches with a knife" reaction "pick up a book and read it".

I mean, your approach to being part of Australian life is about as reasonable as that.

As I've said now at least 3 times.. STAND BACK and take a breather.. your emotional closeness to these people has made you irrational in respect of your own culture. I'm not trying to insult you there.. nor abuse you...I'm assessing the facts as I see them in you.

People come here in desperation.. and we have to adjust to THEIR culture ? the mind truly boggles. How about... they come here, and immediately begin learning how to adapt and assimilate to ours hmmm ?

Perhaps I missed something in Marilyns post.. misunderstood.. maybe others can help me here and give me guidance .. thanx
Posted by BOAZ_David, Friday, 26 May 2006 2:42:06 PM
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BD that is distressing when we find ourselves in a level of agreement - stop it.

Seriously though while Marilyn's post appear to be fairly sexist there is scope for helping people through cultural transition (especially if they are genuine refugees). Fleeing your homeland and going to a country with a different culture, language, religious attitudes etc must be a very difficult process for the most capable of people. I'd hope that if it ever became necessary for me to flee (family first get control of the government) that I would be cut some slack as I arrived.

No space for refugees to demand that we change but there is opportunity for us to show some grace in helping them with the transition (while making it clear that to be part of this country the onus is on them to make any necessary changes not on the existing population).

R0bert
Posted by R0bert, Friday, 26 May 2006 3:11:50 PM
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BOAZ_David: Your a bit hard on Marilyn mate, yes though not pleased with asylum seekers coming here,I do agree with her. For an Afhgan woman to confront strange males would be daunting. Don't forget where they come from they are treated worse than dogs by their own, so-called, men. Apparently it's the -HERE IT COMES FOLKS!- pagan moslem way. Not only in this 'age' either, big al did say that not many women would make it to paradise. It seems that they can not be as thoroughly decent as the pagan - another naughty name - moslem males. I mean how many women have sawn/hacked a captives head off? So you see they are lacking in common humanity and moslem righteousness. numbat
Posted by numbat, Friday, 26 May 2006 3:22:27 PM
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Show me absolute evidence not distortions that muslim people in Australia have forced us to change our culture.

And then show me absolute evidence that white invaders changed their culture to that of the indigenous people.

For heavens' sake there is a strange disconnect with reality in much of this anti-muslim ranting.

There are only 300,000 muslims in Australia, they have been here initially since the 1830's - where is the evidence that women in OZ are forced to wear Burkhas, or attend the local mosque, or are being slaughtered in their beds.

Good grief, i am so tired of this tripe you guys write without a trace of evidence any of it is happening here.

Tell me how many of you know any Afghan women? Come on.

Why are you so wary of facts instead of hysteria? Maybe it escaped your notice - Mariam is an Afghan woman.
Posted by Marilyn Shepherd, Friday, 26 May 2006 4:40:02 PM
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Marilyn: Moslems have been here for yonks, but not in the numbers we have today. Years ago they did not propose to change our laws, today sharia law is preached for Australia. Also preached is that democracy is not islamic. Now Marilyn have a look at TV news, read a newspaper, go to web sites and you tell us without a smirk should we be wary of these death-loving, brutal, misogynistic pagan moslems? After hearing about Afghan women would you like to live under moslem rule with their brutal bloodsoaked inhumane stinking sharia law? If not please wake up dear! numbat
Posted by numbat, Friday, 26 May 2006 5:51:26 PM
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Marilyn one of your posts implied a lack of acceptance to our ways by some migrants, my comments were in response to that.

I think that BD and others have posted enough references to comments by Kaiser Trad etc to show that there are some muslims living in Australia who despise our western culture. Likewise the behaviour of what appear to be mostly Lebanese muslim gangs around Sydney over a number of years provides fairly strong evidence that some just don't get it.

For my part I think that most "mossies" accept the realities of living in this culture and try and find ways of living their faith without imposing it on others. As with the christain church some refuse to accept that others do not see things the way they do and try and force their own taboo's on others. Sitting at a distance that type of approach seems to be a much bigger issue in Sydney than in SE Qld.

European settlers clearly did not addapt too or respect the local culture when they arrived here. There were things thay could have learned from the locals and things the locals could have learned from them. I was not amongst those settlers (I'm not as old as that).

Should we never try and do stuff better than it was done in the past?

Western culture has changed massively since that time, hopefuuly in many ways for the better.

R0bert
Posted by R0bert, Saturday, 27 May 2006 12:41:09 PM
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Numbat, what a tirade. Every single muslim person is a murdering thug and criminal are they? Should I tell that to my dear friend Amin whose greatest joy was getting his 5 year old stepdaughter a full scholarship at a catholic school so she would grow up tough and smart in her new country?

Or how about my beautiful girl Fatima, the only girl with 5 brothers, whose murdering thug of a dad wept with me when he explained that his only girl was the most important person in the world to him - we had locked this beautiful girl in a cell in Port Hedland with dysentery for 5 months without proper medical care and her family of 8 shared one room . Fatima is now studying law after doing 12 years education in 4.

How about Firoozeh, an educated girl from Iran, who nearly died of cold and para-typhoid in Woomera while she was pregnant with her baby girl? Was it a murdering muslim who put this young muslim girl there? No it was our deranged government.

I suggest numbat that you develop a bit of common sense before I say something stupid like "all catholic priests are raving pedophiles".
Posted by Marilyn Shepherd, Saturday, 27 May 2006 3:09:45 PM
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As a postscript to this article, I recently noticed that a line in that pig Zarqawi's "CV" actually credited him with being a local journalist in Afghanistan many years ago.

What a great service of accurate and unbiased reporting the pig must have brought RAWA and the women of Afghanistan. He was not only a foreigner but if that was an example, and not an aberration, of the kind of "Man" occupying jobs in their Afghani "media" (we know there were no women), no wonder the world failed to hear accurately and early about the misogyny and racism of jihadism and compatible primitive tribal customs. We do not create pigs of this kind in this country so it takes all our powers of belief to comprehend that such animals exist elsewhere. But now we know.

In a situation where an imported islamist enemy is narrating the history of one's own country, well, to paraphrase Marian, "Surely you will agree with me and my people that such a country cannot be considered truly free and liberated."
Posted by Ro, Monday, 12 June 2006 3:45:03 PM
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