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The Forum > Article Comments > Desperate enough to come to Australia > Comments

Desperate enough to come to Australia : Comments

By Howard Glenn, published 11/5/2006

The use of Nauru and Manus Island from 2001 to 2005 as processing centres for asylum seekers was a horrible experience for all involved and should not be repeated.

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Howard Glenn is the one doing the “distorting”. “Sustained mistreatment”, after escaping from horrors Glenn and company claim these illegals suffered in their own countries? Come on! Being housed, fed, medically treated and educated while claims are investigated is mistreatment?

Howard Glenn pulls out the old “human rights” chestnut, as usual. There is no human “right” allowing people to choose where they wish to live. Human rights have lost meaning because everyone and his dog misuses the concept to suit their own ends. In any case, Glenn claims that “our obligations under human rights treaties were abandoned”, and that action was upheld by the High Court. He needs to accept that that Australia and the High Court does not agree with him, stop banging his head against that wall, and come up with new arguments – if there are any.

Like all people who claim to be morally and intellectually superior to the rest of us, Glenn knows, before these people “desperate’ to come to Australia even leave their country, just how much danger they are in, and how great their need is. He also knows what a “horrible experience” it was for those poor dears on Nauru and Manus, without ever having experienced it himself.

Howard Glenn can offer all the options to the Government’s plan he wishes to. He has only his own, his cronies and illegals interests in mind; whereas, the Government has the responsibility of taking action on behalf of the country it was elected to serve and protect.
Posted by Leigh, Thursday, 11 May 2006 1:12:23 PM
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Another piece of canting from Howard Glenn, Executive Director of Rights Australia Inc.

Let's deal with the Hazara people of Afghanistan. The Hazara people suffered persecution in Afghanistan and so must be admitted to Australia should they land on our shores according to Howard. Yet Ahmad Shayeq Qassem, First Secretary Embassy of Afghanistan told us that 400 Hazara people who returned to Afghanistan from Australia suffered no abuse because of their ethnic background. Mr Qassem also informed us that several of the highest ranking officials, including one vice-president and several key ministers, in the present Afghan cabinet are from the Hazara community.

Howard would no doubt applaud the practice of rewriting history and inventing neologisms to force the agenda of the clerisy so may I use that same approach? If all cultures are equal - the latest mantra of the clerisy - isn't oppression and deprivation now reduced to the mundane? Why should we be shocked. Why wouldn't Hazaras celebrate living side-by-side with those who persecute them? If all cultures are equal the Hazaras wouldn't have any grounds for fleeing. And if all cultures are equal how can we criticise the Afghans, the Indonesians and even ourselves? Shouldn't our 'cold-hearted' approach be the equal of every other country?

Under Howard's plan all we would do is sow dragon's teeth if we let in without question disparate groups who have nothing in common except their love of ancient feuds.
Posted by Sage, Thursday, 11 May 2006 2:10:18 PM
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Well! Another bleeding heart saying that Australia MUST have open migration to suit all the misfit,desperate,discontented country shoppers who wish to walk in here because it will satisfy their desires to live in a free,generous,weak society where anything goes.And they can still live by their tribal,unAustralian laws and cultural horrors because no one has the right to tell them to behave differently. That would be RACIST!
There is too much ghettoism now, too many enclaves of people who despise Australian culture but not the money handed out.
There are millions of sad, displaced or just discontented people awash in this world.We should take them all in?
Posted by mickijo, Thursday, 11 May 2006 2:11:00 PM
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Mr Shayeq is a Tajik Afghan and Tajik Afghans have been killing and slauthering and maiming Hazara for centuries.

He is a sunni muslim and the Hazara are shi'ite. Get a grip on reality some of you people. The people sent home from Nauru "voluntarily" were given two choices. Stay on a stinking hot little mound of birdpoo for the rest of their lives or go back to Afghanistan. In recent travels the signs of persecution of the Hazara people are as strong as ever and many who went back to Afghanistan have had to run away again. Pashtun's slaughter Hazara. Does that compute with any of the ill-informed?

Now to human rights - let me tell you guys this. If you were stuck in a place where your human rights were being abused, where you faced trauma or persecution or torture who do you think would help you? What if you were stuck in prison for years without trial or charge? It can happen in Australia today and vilification can put you there.

Would it be Howard and Ruddock do you think? I can tell you for sure that it would be Howard Glenn, Julian Burnside and me.

In 1992 the Australian government enshrined the refugee convention into Australian law and deleted all offences for entering or being in Australia without a visa. No charge, no crime, just permanent detention.
Posted by Marilyn Shepherd, Thursday, 11 May 2006 2:20:28 PM
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Marilyn Sheperd not you again.
I know everybody is entiled to have their say but as you posted on Andrews Bartletts dairy[one million times] You are a person living on welfare who clearly is capable of getting a job even if its typing on posts.
We have a small amount of tax payers carrying a country. We have a lack of water and problems with our public hospitals and all health dep.
Then we have trouble with child care schools and our farmers are not getting as much as these people from the government.
We are flooded with imports and our jobs are sold off overseas.
When the price of food goes up we will have to import more to feed everyone.
Have you looked in the super markets at the home brand lables lately > Made in UAE.
Your bagging of Australians while you live off the Australian welfare makes me ill.

Get a job and try paying taxes before you tell the rest of us how awful we are.
Posted by Wendy Lewthwaite, Thursday, 11 May 2006 6:54:59 PM
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I am sick to death of this stream of usless, worthles people getting entry to Australia. If they were worth their salt, they would stay at home & build a descent society in the land of their birth. May be, like us, some of them would have to die to achieve that goal. So what, many of us have had to die for our society.
If we apply your version of logic any further you will have us giving refugee status to ex Taliban militia, just in case they are now in danger.
The type of people who want to run away to some where else, to live on the results of someone else's effort, are the last ones we should ever let in.
Posted by Hasbeen, Thursday, 11 May 2006 8:39:29 PM
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Wendy,

Thanks for the information on Marilyn Shepherd. I have often wondered about her vicious obsession for undermining Australia. If what you say is true, she is a person embittered by own shortcomings rather than someone who has a legitimate point of view.

Thankfully, someone like you can keep an eye on such people through technology; and exercise your right to expose them through the volunteers enabling OLO without fear of favour.

Marilyn has, in her most recent post, demonstrated her illusions of grandeur by suggesting that she is in the same league as people such as Howard Glenn and Julian Burnside and is, therefore, somehow entitled to the martyrdom of imprisonment.

I live within 10-15 minutes drive of Marilyn Shepherd, and would be prepared to have a personal chat with her if she so desired
Posted by Leigh, Thursday, 11 May 2006 8:57:45 PM
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Hmm, stupidity, ignorance and hatred, always so appealing. Why are you people so angry and scared? What have asylum seekers actually done to any of you?

Leigh: Seeking asylum is not illegal. And if Nauru is such a nice place to be, why don't you go and live there.

Mickijo: Who said anything about open migration? And people who come here have to abide by our laws, no question about it.

Wendy Lewthwaite: Do you seriously suggest that people who don't pay tax should not be allowed to have an opinion? If yes, should the opinions of people who pay a lot of tax be worth more than that of others who dont? Interesting idea, would suit me pretty well actually..

Hasbeen: How do you know that these are worthless people? And what do you know about building a decent society in a situation where you are persecuted by your own government? I somehow doubt you would be so keen on doing the dying you speak about so casually.

Do you people actually comprehend what these laws mean. They mean that even people who are persecuted, who have been tortured, beaten and raped by agents of the very governments who are supposed to protect them, are not welcome here. Australia doesn't want them. Tough luck Jack. We only care about us, screw you. Fine - if that is what you believe, then say it. But why stop with the asylum seekers? I don't feel much in common with Aborigines, screw them too. Women? Nothing but trouble, screw them. Collingwood supporters annoy me too. Screw them. And pensioners..dopey old parasites, what do they contribute to the economy. Screw them. And sick people, especially smokers with lung cancer (its there own fault, after all). Screw them.

In fact, screw everybody but me and my mates. Now thats the way to run a society!
Posted by pickledherring, Thursday, 11 May 2006 9:03:54 PM
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pickledherring
Well said if only the shoe was on there foot would be interesting to see how their views would change but i must say i do dislike the magpies
Posted by freechoice, Thursday, 11 May 2006 9:17:24 PM
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Dear Wendy forgot a thing or two in her vicious attack on me personally as if me having an opinion she doesn't like is a crime. I am permanently disabled and incapable of being employed because my immune system has been killed by drugs required to keep me alive from one day to the next. She is so kind to suggest that I should get a job.

She also forgot to mention that she vociferously defends animal rights and ignores human rights totally. Over and over again she says that we are short of water but forgets that we actively encourage 5 million or more tourists each year and don't ask them to bring their own.

Perhaps Wendy doesn't mind slaughtered women and kids so long as no-one kills a cow.

Actually many on this forum seem to have totally missed out on the milk of human kindness for some. The Papuans are our nearest neighbours who are being tortured and killed by the hated Indonesian regime.

Or do you all think we should love and support the TNI - the people who slaughtered 183,000 East Timorese?

Please explain instead of making me the story, I am pretty sick of it.
Posted by Marilyn Shepherd, Friday, 12 May 2006 12:05:06 AM
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M I am not sure about people posting things they know are untrue but I will find out for everybodys sake.
How many times were you invited to work by email with the man who runs the imagration support in Sydney? How many timese were you offered to work with our programe to create thousands of jobs both here and overseas in poor countries. What about all my aboriginal welfare projects and aged vcare projects that I offered you and begged you to become involved with from your own home? Your the one not doing anything for people not me.
Yes I put most of my energy into animal welfare and making all animal welfare groups more accountable because they ask the public for huge money and do nothing what so ever to help the animals 99 per cent of the time.
I will always stick up for the one who cant speak for himself.My point is if you can sit and type at home you can get off welfare at least partly.You dictate to people like you are someone of great influence such as a dudge or lawyer.Your not your a person on welfare with a bad attitude towards the hand that feeds you and your kids.
Ban Live Export
Posted by Wendy Lewthwaite, Friday, 12 May 2006 5:32:22 AM
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Hazara Shiites should goto the most obvious and 'sore thumb' stand out destination which is compatable with their theological leanings....IRAN.

Why the heck would they come to Australia, which is not Muslim, when Iran is just one border crossing away ? Its crazy.

I would never .. repeat NEVER have sympathy for someone who did that.
If the Hazara's have trouble in Afghanistan, they should ALL move to Iran and have peace. That's the way of the world. When people give you a hard time en masse just because of what you believe, you either declare war on them if you have the numbers or resources or you get the hell OUT of there.

BUT...... don't come to Australia which is thousands of miles away and risk ur life in crappy old leaky boats, when there is a safe haven a few blocks away.

It raises the perennial question about 'is it really safe haven they want' or..... is it a new economic life ?

People.. (Wendy and Marilyn) lets keep this out of the mud slinging at each other dears :) and stick to the issues.
Posted by BOAZ_David, Friday, 12 May 2006 6:36:36 AM
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Pickledherring,

Entering any country without correct documentation is illegal, so stop talking rubbish. I won’t be going to Nauru because I am an Australian citizen, not an illegal immigrant. And, as I said, if these illegals are really escaping from such horrors, as people like you believe, Nauru would seem like heaven.

Hasbeen,

Agree with you entirely. If the situations in some of these countries were as bad as activists claim, we would have whole populations knocking on the door. We just get the opportunists who desert their country for a better one.

The whole business of how it is decided who is genuine and who is not needs to be open. It seems that all the Immigration Department goes on is stories from applicants who could be lying in their teeth. In general, it seems, anyone who turns up with a good yarn is allowed to stay in Australia. And, how can we trust a Department who deports an Australian citizen and locks up an Australian resident.
Posted by Leigh, Friday, 12 May 2006 2:24:19 PM
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I am now positive there is a doppleganger in or midst masquerading as Boaz David - in a second post he has now cussed and posted with out a single biblical reference;

This is such a departure from his normal form to make me suspicious indeed. What once set him apart from the crowd of Xenophobes has evaporated -

And keep at it Marylin - ignore the slings and arrows - pretty soon some one will claim to have bested you in the debate because you've made your case and there is little else to say. It happens all the time.

I just pop in to these threads now and again for a bit of a laugh - but it pays to keep in touch with the views of the dark side every now and again.
Posted by sneekeepete, Friday, 12 May 2006 2:46:59 PM
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What about some of these gutless 'asylum seekers' showing a bit of backbone and fighting for their country instead of rushing to western nations for all the freebies they can get their hands on?
The biggest trouble in today's world appears to be Muslim v Muslim. Why in the hell should Australians have to made responsible for the losers?
We have our own problems but we are drowning in an overload of fanatically religious foreigners whom we want no part of.
Australian Migration should be thinking long term and the consequences of allowing the wrong sort of migrant into Australia.
Posted by mickijo, Friday, 12 May 2006 3:11:49 PM
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OK Leigh - I guess the 1 million Australian's who have left to live elsewhere are just opportunists who leave their own country for a better one. Yes? Under the refugee convention it is accepted and legal for anyone fleeing persecution to enter a country that has signed the refugee convention - without papers.

The only story anyone can tell that allows them to stay is that they are being persecuted, face persecution and it is well founded. If you have a problem with that you need to talk to Bob Menzies who helped to author it.

David Boaz, the Hazara did go to Iran and were sent back to Afghanistan. You need to read the historical context of the Hazara who were the dogs vomit in Pakistan, Iran and Afghanistan because they are largely pacifist and shi'ite moderates. Should moderates live in a country led by lunatic fundamentalists when the Iranian moderates have to leave?

Iran tolerated 3 million Afghans for 20 years without help from the outside community but in 1998 started to kick them out, deny them education and work rights, housing rights or protection of any kind. So a few left. I defy anyone on this forum not to do the same, after all Australian's are pretty good at caring only for themselves.
Posted by Marilyn Shepherd, Friday, 12 May 2006 3:18:34 PM
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Sneekeepete or little bo peep whatever this time Andrew as Maralyin claims to work with you on these matters perhaps she should be paid.
your job is to look after Australians first.
M it is not attacking a person to suggest they get a job working from home. At least you put your name to all your posts unlike some. I am just wondering if you can see our point at all about your strange idea of letting people arrive and go into the suburbs spreading disease and expecting free housing food while running us down.It seems to be a pattern once given a hand out people turn on the givers whoever they are.

Of course people on welfare should be allowed to vote but I do think we should know how many people are on the dole longer than three years that dont do some sort of public service as opposed to the tax payers.

So M you say you dont like aboriginals but you like any person who demands to come here stay and live off welfare.

Umm

I make no apoiligies for putting Australian familys first and we have many homeless people being ignored.

This is a small country and muslims are far better off in muslim countries . Look what happend in the UK do you really want that here?
I am refering to an act of parliment to change the law regarding divorce and marriage if you are Mulim.In short if you are Muslim you dont have to obey british law when it comes to being married to just one person.Thats how much thse migrants respect the country that took them on.
Posted by Wendy Lewthwaite, Saturday, 13 May 2006 5:36:27 AM
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The current Nauru and Manus destinations are too pleasant, I suggest Herd Island. As long as we continue with our multiculturalism and do-good approach more refugees will come. Make them less welcome and fewer will come. Most of these people are unhinged by their religion and seem to breakdown quickly in detention centres and start sewing lips etc. They have little to offer and seem able to exploit our social security system. I wonder what sort of future citizens their offspring will make with this background?
Posted by SILLE, Saturday, 13 May 2006 10:04:43 AM
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Marilyn,

You have really lost the plot now, comparing Australians working overseas with the bludging, so-called refugees who come here univited and illegally.

If it's OK for the Immigration Minister and Attorney General to refer to people turning up by boat as ILLEGAL, it's OK for me. Whether you like it or not, Australia still has laws of its own and has the right to enforce them. We are not under the boot of world government, yet.

These uninvited and ILLEGAL entrants can say anything they want, and there is no way that immigration officials can prove or disprove what they say. The ILLEGALS are opportunists who leave the majority of their countrymen behind to face what you assure us, via your crystal ball or vivid imagination, is persecution. Perhaps you could put your 'concern' into action and go to some of these Muslim countries and see what you can do to help them sort out their problems in their own countries, where they belong. You are certainly not contributing anything to Australia, and all your drivel has achieved nothing for your ILLEGAL friends. You won't do this of course, because you are full of it, as they say.

No, you will continue to rubbish your own country and countrymen and women because you can get away with it.
Posted by Leigh, Saturday, 13 May 2006 11:56:38 AM
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OK I give up - Leigh, Mickijo, Wendy - why don't you arm yourselves, stand on the coast and shoot refugees as they arrive? It will pay well and you will be immune from prosecution for murder.

As to the word "illegal" - go right ahead and use it, it is still wrong.

What do you want to do about the 13,000 other refugees who are being migrated into the country every year? Stand at the airports and shoot them on arrival. Do you know any refugees? Do you know what a refugee is yet?

Some still seem to think that there are hundreds of people on Nauru - what a surprise for them then that there are only 2 Iraqi men and they cost $12 million per year to keep there - and all this time we are invading and occupying Iraq on the pretext of freeing the Iraqi people.

There is an ugliness in the psyche of some like Leigh who don't understand a simple concept - refugees are human beings. My friends from Iraq and Iran are doctors, economists, have degrees in English and are highly educated but could not live in their own countries without being tortured simply because they are educated.

The Afghans I know are the most intelligent, quick learning people I have ever known and the Afghans did help to build Australia after all.

And Leigh, the 1 million Australians overseas did only leave to find a better country, if not they would all come rushing back so that we don't need to bring in 700,000 temporary workers each year. You could say they have deserted us like the leaches they are.
Posted by Marilyn Shepherd, Saturday, 13 May 2006 1:16:47 PM
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marylin, have you heard the word,Opportunists? Do you read the papers that give news on the muslim populations who have swamped European countries and the troubles they have caused to their hosts?
Do you think our laws and traditions should be arranged to suit muslims?
Should we legislate to permit female circumcision, polygamy,women forced into berqs, arranged marriages, honour killings and all the rest of the Islamic delights?
I would suggest that you are living in the wrong country,our freedoms and tolerance are being abused by immigrants who wish to impose their horrible religious ways on us.
Open both eyes marylin.
Posted by mickijo, Saturday, 13 May 2006 3:06:04 PM
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You can say what you want Leigh, fact is seeking asylum is NOT ILLEGAL. You are wrong, deal with it.

But facts dont matter to people like you, only your own stupid prejudices. I ask you again, why are you so scared and upset by a few West Papuans?

And mickijo, as for horrible religious ways being imposed on us, I am totally opposed to that, but Tony Abbot is more of a concern in that regard than a few black people on a boat. What religion are the West Papuans?
Posted by pickledherring, Saturday, 13 May 2006 4:28:42 PM
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Dear Marilyn
your reply actually 'makes' my case. The idea that 3 million people in Iran are being given a hard time, and some leave (yes, it is understandable) to make their way to places like Australia, ... well here is my point. Would you accept all 3 million ? because they are all in the same boat. I don't know where you would draw the line, would it be 'those who can make it here' ? or.. ALL who could make it here, but didnt.

I cannot imagine you would open our country to all those who are experiencing such problems, because they would amount to more than our current population. But u don't make this clear.

I draw the line at = 'our legal, democratically determined levels, through lawful chanels'.

If it is suggested that 'back door' methods such as used by many middle easterners 'boat people'.... then how MANY would you accept ?
Once you show sympathy to the back doorers, MORE will without doubt come, having seen how easy it was for those who went before them.

So, in this case. how MANY will you allow to come ? can you put a figure..annual intake... upper limit...etc ? it would probably avoid much of the vitriol you are currently encountering
Cheers
Posted by BOAZ_David, Saturday, 13 May 2006 9:48:48 PM
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David Boaz, every argument you make is absurd. There are 8 million refugees in Asia and 6 million in Africa. 100,000 are "accepted" by the west through migration programs and Australia "accepts" 6,000 of them. At that rate it will take about 3,000 years.

What is the obsession with numbers? Why are people always whining about what happened in England and Europe when the numbers of people wanting protection has fallen by 80% of the past year? Who cares what happened in Europe? We are bringing muslim refugees and migrants to Australia every day of the week - I guess the real fear is of muslims - but imagine how the people in Iraq and Afghanistan feel when we keep bombing them.

The reality is that the world could absorb every refugee in the world in a week and no-one would notice as they are only about one third of one percent of the world's population. About the same as the population of Australia.

And Wendy, will you stop libelling me? I have worked with aboriginal people for decades, don't hate them, don't hate the homeless, don't hate the poor and can't work with a migration centre in Sydney when I live in Adelaide.
Posted by Marilyn Shepherd, Sunday, 14 May 2006 1:26:18 AM
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Marilyn I just feel you are always rubbishing the very people who are supporting you. Well may you not like the Government but they and we keep you so maybe it would be worth considering that. You have the same attitude as these oportunists that come heare bludge off our good nature then challange our way of life.
As for the boarder idea yeh sure I am up for it , no worries.
You complain when we go and take out a dictator so people can make better lives in their own country.
Faiz would not mind you dont live in Sudney. Ever heard of emails?
I rest my care against you other than to say if your well enough to do posts from home typing then you are well enough to write other things and work from home and you know it.

If the cap fits wear it.

ban Live Exports
Posted by Wendy Lewthwaite, Sunday, 14 May 2006 7:33:07 AM
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Marilyn,
You no doubt have a good heart
But your sympathies are ill-placed.

If the world took-in all of today’s "refugees"
There would be a new batch tomorrow, of equal or greater number.
Most are economic refugees seeking a higher social/economic position
They are encouraged by the antics of bleeding heart elements in the west.

And what is this nonsense about us bombing Iraq & Afghanistan
Seems like most of the bombing is done by their compatriots
Posted by Horus, Sunday, 14 May 2006 8:20:35 AM
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Marilyn, Howard and kindred have good intentions but dead wrong in today’s world. We need to discourage these refugees and only need to look at the mess with Lebanese Muslims to see that these people and their values are incompatible with our society. They will never fit in and concerning ourselves with their comfort while in detention is crazy. We need to keep them out with their cousin marrying inward looking perspective and distorted religion.

With the West Papuans we will become a platform for Indonesian flag burning but probably not much more as the numbers are not there.
Posted by SILLE, Sunday, 14 May 2006 10:29:49 AM
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Pickledherring,

Thanks for your the permission to 'say what I want'. I intend to do so. I am not wrong on 'illegals'. You are.

Marilyn,

You say you give up, but then you continue to waffle on about the same old same old. If you must always have the last say, please do so. Aim some of your venom at me, and I guarantee not to respond. In fact, I undertake to ignore all of your ravings in the future and make no comment. You have made it clear that you have an obsession on the one subject, and that you hate anyone who disagrees with you.

Your suggestion that I and two others you hate shoot illegals as they reach the border is bordering on the lunatic. You need help, Marilyn. Your unemployment and lack of a worthwhile life have made you sick. Even the limp lefties on ABC local radio groan when you ring them.

I pity you.
Posted by Leigh, Sunday, 14 May 2006 10:35:05 AM
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This is nothing more than a I hate refugees and Marilyn Shepherd spite fest.

What is the point of having a debate with tired, old lies dominating.

Wendy you don't have the foggiest notion what I do, Leigh you don't either.

Why is this about me and not about the facts of the law and rights of human beings?
Posted by Marilyn Shepherd, Sunday, 14 May 2006 1:28:45 PM
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Dear Marilyn
I'll ignore the 'your arguments are absurd' insult, and continue with an attempt to get a real answer from you on this important issue.

You gave the numbers, 6million + 8million.
Then you said the world could absorb them ALL right now.
So, given our small population and overstretched resources, HOW MANY would you accept for Australia ? please... if u don't mind actually answering this question, please do so.

Also, if we accepted a large number of a particular non traditional religious or cultural background here, do you not see any danger at all of Lakemba style Ghettos or changes to the political power balance ? Do you see no social problems emerging ?

I'm not sure why, but u do seem to ignore a very important point, which is the political and cultural cohesian of our already fragmented population. Now.. please note, this is separate from the last para which requests a specific answer. My argument on this score is not 'absurd' because it is rooted in real world experience where immigration/refugees have been used as a political tool by BOTH sides in the Malaysian state of Sabah. When the Muslim was Chief minister, he welcomed all "refugees"(code for 'voters/militia') from Southern Philippines, but when the Catholic dude was CM he welcomed all the 'refugees' from Timor ! (same code applies)

If we can extract some real numbers from you for Australia, then we can have a better basis for scrutiny of your position.

I await.......

P.S. Horus.. some very good points...noted.
Posted by BOAZ_David, Sunday, 14 May 2006 2:28:06 PM
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Marilyn I dont hate you at all. Your way too honest to be a poly M.
If I can gain political mileage to discredit your theory I will.

What do you think politics are all about.

I do not for one moment doubt much of what you say is true but I will argue with you until the cows come home about which injustice practises should be given attention first.

As far as you are personally concerned I think its a shame the Government did not take you on to work from home to do some research.

So I do not think you are an idiot.

Your someone had somebody else taken the time to educate could have held a position in which they could help folks.

Also M I work with the Islamic council and councils of Australia.

At the risk my MOU with them let me assure you these people have no idea of what a good old fashioned handshake means.

Remember that when you when a your taking the time to work for them. You should have and could have gone a long way in life.
The offer to work with Faiz still stands. He runs the migrant center in the city. Also remember we the tax payer fund that too so after you proove your worth ask to be paid. Mean while pardon me if I play politics and repeat if you are well enough to post as much as you do you are well enough to type out a report a get paid for it etc.
The other thing is M I at least speak with some track record and experience as well as personal so give me some credit for knowing some of these peoples attutide that come here and I promise you they would not do the same for you.
Look after your own health first and dont let people like me get to do because after all I really only care about the animals as a first ]true]
Happy Mothers day.
Posted by Wendy Lewthwaite, Sunday, 14 May 2006 5:39:03 PM
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Numbers are an absurdity when speaking of refugees
David as we "accept" so very few of them. The slums of Lakemba are replicated in Elizabeth in SA only the slum dwellers are blue collar white workers. Not only that unless you are aboriginal you and your ancestors all came from somewhere else over the past 220 years so the "we" is who? Do you or I have a particular mortgage on the island for generations because we got here before someone else? I don't think so.

Now to numbers - check these out and then you make a rough yes or no to my suggestion at the end.

1. About 5 million tourists visit every year.
2. 165,000 foreign students live here for up to 4 or 5 years at a time and then qualify to be permanent if qualified enough.
3. 150,000 permanent migrants every year.
4. The last reports of temporary workers for last year were 700,000.
5. Refugees and humanitarian resettlement from other countries 13,000.

Now I suspect Australia could admirably handle it if 10% of the settlers each year were refugees, 5% of the overseas students could be special humanitarian settlers, and 5% of the temporary workers should come from places like Africa and South Asia.

That way there are no extra people, just a different mix.

What do you think?

Of course in the real world of the law - every person on the planet has an absolute right to come to Australia and ask for refugee protection if they so desire.
Posted by Marilyn Shepherd, Monday, 15 May 2006 2:46:59 AM
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I think 13,000 refugees are too many. The overseas students, tourists etc all contribute and are welcome.
Posted by SILLE, Monday, 15 May 2006 9:04:22 AM
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Leigh I am not ignoring you its just difficult given we only have limited amount of words to post on this.M is just someone who is outraged at mistreatment of people. I know i get REALLY angry with the public when they ALL watch 60 minutes for eg about live exports and intensive farming but after saying oh! its awful do nothing to help.

As for the students and business visa i say STOP them!. These ARE our highest risk . Numbers dont count when you onl.y need a few to blow up train stations and buildings. Why risk our own people.
Muslims need to go to Muslim countries and Saudi is not broke.
Posted by Wendy Lewthwaite, Monday, 15 May 2006 10:31:34 AM
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Thanks pickled herring and some others for showing empathy and imagination. Those of us who can't are interesting. We are all connected in some way or another but some cannot bear to think so. Despite our access to international networks there are those among us who cannot imagine that anything would happen to this country and there is even a tone of God-given right - to our great country - in many of our arguments.
Those of us who rest so lazily on such argument often describe refugees as already being poor and wretched or failing in the instinct to fight. This is completely inaccurate but what does it matter?
Natural disasters are not discriminate but we are hearing from people who cannot visualise such a real possibility. Rebellions or revolutions are probably unlikely even if some of these people present a decent cause.
Do we have the courage to think that we are in many ways, just like these refugees. Do we have the ability to picture something that wipes us out almost completely? A meteor, a piece of a satellite, an earthquake, a tsunami? I can already hear the "of course not, not here".
Can we picture our neighbours refusing to help, our Government failing to assist because it may no longer exist and other countries failing to drum up the aid because their own coffers are running dry. Not likely? Not in this lifetime - are you so sure? What about your children or theirs? Do you care?
A traveller once told me that he arrived in a famine-stricken African country and the people insisted he stay with them and share their one Aid-dropped portion of rice.
Nourish your loathe-my-neighbour xenophobia but know the lonely cost.
Posted by dinkum, Monday, 15 May 2006 5:01:11 PM
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Oh no Leigh, you have really shot me down in flames.. "I'm not wrong - you are!". Yes, and black is white and up is down too, you just keep on sticking your head in the sand. One little problem though

It's still not illegal to seek asylum in Australia.

Why can't you deal with the facts? Why can't you admit you are wrong? How many of the other things you believe are wrong as well?
Posted by pickledherring, Monday, 15 May 2006 7:22:28 PM
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It could be the lack of history education today that has contributed to this cruel rejection of fellow human beings. Most have forgotten the treatment and massacres of young Australian men in two wars so still continue to believe that Iraq is what a war is.

It was after those wars that the world banded together to prevent what happened to the Jews in the holocaust ever happening again. In 1938 22 white nations got together to discuss the Jewish refugee "problem" and voted to send them back to Germany and then stood by while 6 million people were slaughtered.

After the war the guilt was overwhelming so they wrote the refugee convention to prevent such an occurence happening again. Until very recently Australia has accepted over 650,000 refugees without ever forcing them back.

Why on earth would anyone want to send people back to the hell of Rwanda as we did a 15 year old boy whose whole family had been massacred in the genocide of 1994, after locking him up until he was 18? Beggars belief but we did it.

How about 13 and 14 year old Afghan boys who saw their older brothers sent to clear the mines with their bodies? We sent home 32 such boys, almost all of them orphans. Why? Couldn't we have found it in our hearts to help those boys?

What about the christians sent back to the mad mullahs in Iran who disappeared from the face of the earth, or those that were tortured? We have never done this before Howard so we need to put this into an historical context and understand that one day we will need help and it will not be around.
Posted by Marilyn Shepherd, Tuesday, 16 May 2006 2:05:54 AM
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Your right Marilyn, one day we will need help given the way things are going in Australia as standards have dropped dramatically in the public arena and morals and obligations are not longer highly regarded and society is becoming more aggressive and violent. Crime, terrorism and corruption is on the rise and turning a blind eye and political correctness is the trend. WE are going backwards.

Problem is that when the inevitable happens and things spin out of control as they have in many Countries before us, Australia wont be able to handle the problem and we wont be able to get outside help as they are all having similar problems and issues and we wont have numbers large enough in Australia who really believe themselves to be Australian and that will fight for Australians to be able to save what Australia once had. Our freedoms are already being eroded.

It’s not the history lessons in schools that are a problem. All People are capable of good and bad and that will never change. We need to learn from the past but live in the present and look towards the future, times have changed and for many Australians there are ‘warning bells ringing’ telling us that we should be seriously concerned as there is a definite pattern emerging. As my son said to me once when he was just six years old “Smart people believe what they see with their own eyes!”.

Sure maybe these refugees etc are finding it tough because they feel left out and vilified and they are reacting but the fact is that we need to take the time to assess the situation as many are not being absorbed well and we need to take the time to settle those that we already have here before deciding whether it is in the best interest of the majority to bring in any more.

Australians are feeling threatened by the situation and they are scared. Do we need to wait until a bomb is dropped on our heads for it to count?
Posted by Jolanda, Tuesday, 16 May 2006 9:51:08 AM
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Jolanda conflating refugees to bombs on our heads is counter productive as there simply are not enough refugees in Australia to bother, or want to.

As for waiting for a bomb to fall on our heads - what did the Afghan and Iraqi people do to deserve us dropping bombs on their heads, hundreds of thousands of them.

Did they ask for it do you think? People need to ask themselves just what they are so afraid of, if they really are afraid and if they are simply telling ghost stories.

I remember as a kid in the bush being told I should be terrified of baby eating catholics and was demonised for years because I played with them as friends.

Now I have catholic and muslim friends I just feel richer.
Posted by Marilyn Shepherd, Tuesday, 16 May 2006 2:09:03 PM
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Marilyn, if muslims are in such fear of their lives why do they bypass Islamic countries and pay thousands to reach Western countries?
Posted by mickijo, Tuesday, 16 May 2006 3:24:02 PM
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Okay Marilyn I will tell you what the people that I speak to are afraid of. They are afraid because they believe that extremist Muslims and even some moderate Muslims do not tolerate the Western way at all and they actively try to change things to suit them.

They come from Countries where they have no rights and no freedom of speech and instead of fighting to change things in their own country so that they can have rights, they come here pushing for changes that reflect their own Countries way of thinking and living and they are succeeding. They don’t seem to really want to change, they seem to just want to make things so it is suitable and appropriate for them. I believe that the majority of those that come here are Economic refugees. They don’t seem to care whether the Australian people are in agreement or not and they don’t seem to realise that if they bring the same attitudes with them and use the Law to push their rights above others then it will cause hostility and resentment and violence and that causes fear and wars.

The attitude of some, including the belief that stealing and rape and things like that is “not really” crime or its not serious crime like say ‘mass murderers” reflects the environment that they have been brought up in. That is the problem with people that come from Countries that have been at war and have experienced a lot of violence, their standards drop and they have a different idea as to what really constitutes crime.

Whether it is the fault of those that caused these people to become refugees or immigrants is irrelevant, the fact is that the consequences are felt by Australians and by many people across the globe and issues are occuring across the globe.

Blaming Australians for bombs being dropped on the heads of Afgan and Iraqi people is counter-productive Marilyn as the majority of Australians are at home they are not dropping bombs on anybody’s head.
Posted by Jolanda, Tuesday, 16 May 2006 3:27:36 PM
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Dear Marilyn
actually I don't have such a big problem with your suggestion of changing the mix as u said.

What I DO have concerns with, (not so much what u said) is the issue of compatability. We must must MUST have the final say on who comes, and their background, language, culture and religion all have to figure in that assessment.

Oh..definition time. "We" would be the predominant ethno/cultural status quo in Australia which at last count is approx 69% Anglo/Northern Euro, with the UK contingent by far the largest of that.

So, another point you raised. Lack of history teaching u say is the reason we are so unsympathetic to those wanting to come here.
I suggest the reverse is true.. because we DO know how ethnic groups behave when they become strong. Just look at the USA right NOW ! its happening before our eyes.. don't u see it ? Floods and waves and numberless masses of Mexicans .. who see themselves as 'workers today voters tomorrow'. Do you not notice the Bush camp being worried about annoying 'The Hispanic Vote' ? do you not see the Democrats DROOLING at the thought of 12 million extra 'democrat' voters if the illegals are allowed to remain ?

This hispanic invasion of the USA could ultimately sneak over here and bite both you and I in the bum. Simply by changing the world power balance in ways which expose us to danger.

So, everything u said was pretty ok except the last line which was very much 'preaching' :) now I NEVER do that do I ? 0_-

I will never accept the idea that we should accept people from far off places irrespective of their degree of compatability with our existing situation, culture and political/social stability.

My approach would be to assess them all off shore and then direct them to a 'most compatable' country. (which may include ours)
Posted by BOAZ_David, Tuesday, 16 May 2006 8:52:00 PM
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Thanks David, that was the most constructive conversation we have had. Here is the thing though and others should remember this.

The muslims are not all the same anymore than christians are all the same. We would not expect to send catholics to live in protestant parts of Ireland for example.

As for the argument that they should have gone to other muslim countries - which nice, safe place that has signed the refugee convention do people suggest? Would they go to places where the human rights violations are just as bad? Would you in their places?

I remember as a kid we had this argument over the Italians and the Greeks, then they fit in.

Then it was the Asians and Vietnamese refugees - the world didn't end and they get along now.

Muslims as a matter of fact have been in Australia since the 1830' and 1840's - the oldest mosque is in Adelaide - without the world coming to an end. As a country we outnumber muslims by 70:1 and they largely are not doing anything at all to us so why is the vilification necessary?

In every nation on earth Australians are the "aliens" and we should remember that.
Posted by Marilyn Shepherd, Thursday, 18 May 2006 1:59:10 AM
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It seems that the serial pest and harpy Marilyn Shepherd has found herself a permanent nest to roost in at long last, judging by the barrage of comments from her. What amazes me is the number of people who have bothered to try to reason with this ratbag. Please, please - stop encouraging her!
Posted by ZORRO, Thursday, 18 May 2006 10:31:06 AM
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I am all for taking in refugees. But surely the UN doesn't deny us the right to decide who is and isn't a legitimate refugee? My family came to Australia to get away from a deteriorating society. Are we refugees? I don't claim to be.

Perhaps something needs to be done to speed up the process of assessing refugees. My understanding is that a large part of the problem is caused by the right given to refugees to appeal decisions time and again. While they are doing this, they are living in captivity - true. But they are living in safe captivity without fear of the atrocities they are fleeing. It may not be pleasant but, for those who are genuinely in need, it must surely be more pleasant than what they are coming from. If they are found to be in genuine need, they are accepted into our society. If not, they are not accepted. Surely this is fair?

I guess, at the end of the day, if we were locking them in broom cupboards and beating them daily with big sticks, there would be a solid argument that we are denying their human rights. But, as far as I know, the only right we are denying is the right to freedom. And, until they are proven to be in need of refuge, they are not refugees. They are illegal immigrants. And people who do illegal things often get locked up.
Posted by Otokonoko, Friday, 19 May 2006 1:06:51 AM
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Zorro,
I'm with you. Ms Sheperd is of the far looney left, who will write anything to further her views,no matter how wrong or exagerated.

It is best to ignore her.
Posted by Banjo, Friday, 19 May 2006 11:38:45 AM
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Zorro and Bango. I am with you too/two. Marilyn appears far too one sided and biased to be taken seriously.
Posted by Jolanda, Friday, 19 May 2006 11:54:14 AM
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Yep I am biased and proud of it and some on this forum are just a bit too precious so I will ask a series of questions and see if we can have a sensible argument about refugees instead of about me. I am not a refugee but my great-great grandfather was a refugee who came here in 1844 to escape fundamentalist Lutherans in Silesia and forced conscription by the Prussians.

1. Do you believe we should lock up children for up to 5 years or more? If so under what conditions.
2. Should we lock up adults without trial or charge for up to 7 years or should they be charged with something and be given a sentence?
3. If nice white christians claimed asylum as refugees would you automatically accept them and are they different to christian Papuans - which is what this is about?
4. Why do you believe that refugees are opportunists and why are they always conflated with the mess in France and the bombers in Britain when none of the people involved were refugees?
5. As muslims are 20% of the world's population and only 1 to seventy here, just how do you propose to keep them out?
6. My suggestion of shooting them at the coast was irony but I guess that is lost on some.

The fact is that Australia has settled 650,000 refugees since WW11 and we have an absolute obligation in law to do so and not turn them away.
Posted by Marilyn Shepherd, Friday, 19 May 2006 1:25:17 PM
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Did others also note that after the survivours from the Seiv X sinking arrived back in Indonesia and told their story, the boats stopped comming here. Those hundreds (or thousands) waiting to get on boats suddenly found other places to go where the journey was less hazardous.

Obviously, Australia is not the only option for Middle East people proporting to be refugees. I wonder if our free accomadation and free medical and social security had anything to do with them making us their first choice.
Posted by Banjo, Friday, 19 May 2006 2:24:25 PM
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I feel for these people who seek a better life and were unlucky enough to be born in Countries where peace is a problem. However, I dont think it is right or fair that only those with the 'means and contacts' have an avenue of escape and are supported. People come here claiming to be so persecuted in their own Country that they had to flee for thier life. If you can organise to travel half way round the world in numbers to get to a country of choice then how persecuted can you be?

It just doesn't fit in with the picture of a true refugee that is being persecuted. I only see economic refugees who cant get here any other way, but know that Australia is the place to come as they have "rights" and "entitlements", and who appear to be in more danger of dying getting to Australia than anything else. Yet they take that chance and often put their children and families at risk of death for the sake of living a economically more supported and stable life in Australia and it doesn't take a genius to work out why. Bango got it in one.

If safety was thier main concern they wouldn't put their family and children at risk to come here. They would go to the closest Country of Muslim faith. If they wont let them in or if all Muslim countries are having problems with their own people then that says alot about the Muslim people and maybe these people should stay at home and try to change the culture and attitude in their own backyards.
Posted by Jolanda, Friday, 19 May 2006 3:14:13 PM
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The Immigration Act is quite clear. People arriving without documentation in Australia are regarded as illegal/unlawful and will be detained. This is a bipartisan policy, instigated by the ALP. Fortunately for them, they haven't been in government for so long, that they have never had to enforce it.

Illegals can call themselves asylum seekers or whatever they wish; the facts and the requirement for detention remain.

Most of the Mickey Mouse, loony left opinions on this site appear to come from people who have never read anything - including the daily papers - in their lives.

Zorro,

Hear Hear! I had already made up my mind to ignore Marilyn the Maenad and a few of the other loons who think they have particular powers of persuasion. They don't have the intelligence to know that others feel the same way about their opinions as they do and, therefore, will not change them merely because they are harrassed every time they wish to express those opinions.
Posted by Leigh, Friday, 19 May 2006 4:53:00 PM
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M I would like to take a crack at your questions if that Ok .
[1] No they should lock up the parents for putting them at risk!.Are you suggesting we take the kids into main stream? We dont arrest the kids just the parents.
2 No three months and if we cant find out who they are by then tough.
3No I do not see the difference between black or white because there are white terrorits as well. Not all terrorists or unsavoury people are are black.


4 This question is putting words in peoples mouths and is not a true reflection of what i beleive.

5 not clear question.

6 Oh M and I thought you were serious . Silly me. Does this mean I now must unpack. dam.

Come on m give us a smile OK. Many people dont agree with you and some do thats what this is for.

More still just like to wind you up because you always bite. Your not so bad M and actually very aware of whats going on when some of us are asleep.
I admire your dedication and some of your thoughts while remaining Pro Australian.

There is no harm meant
Posted by Wendy Lewthwaite, Friday, 19 May 2006 8:16:50 PM
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“Yep I am biased and proud of it”

O dear. Don’t be biased be balanced. Marilyn I don’t understand how you can have a conviction that your views are right or reasonable while thinking they are biased.

I’ll have a go at your questions….

1. Absolutely not. But keeping children in detention with their parents or guardians is probably fair and reasonable. I can imagine some of them being terrified if they are taken away from the adults they know and depend on.

2. We should not lock up asylum seekers for any longer than it is necessary to determine their refugee status. For the vast majority, this has meant a relatively short time in detention, despite a lack of papers and of cooperation from many of them. You have got to realise just how difficult it has been to get a fair concept of how real the plight is for many of these people, especially when the Australian authorities knew at the time of the Tampa that there was a great deal of opportunism going on, with people gathering in Indonesia ready to jump on boats to Australia when they could have sought refuge much closer to home. Particularly long detention has only occurred for the really difficult cases. There may have been some who were detained after their cases were resolved, until their entire group was resolved. There is merit in keeping groups together.

3. We have to make sure that we treat all asylum seekers in the same manner, and are seen to be doing so.

4. The distinction between refugees and opportunists is very difficult. There is no doubt some overlap. Those who think of all asylum seekers as opportunists are far too one-eyed for my liking.

5. I wouldn’t propose to keep them out. But they must swear an oath to put Australia first and to forego practices that are in conflict with ours. Just what practices this includes should have been worked out and elucidated ages ago. This goes for everyone. We should not single out Muslims
Posted by Ludwig, Friday, 19 May 2006 9:42:36 PM
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Marilyn, I am also interested to know what you think of my post on mandatory detention under ‘Our Australian Blindside’ (13/5) http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=4441#41450
Posted by Ludwig, Friday, 19 May 2006 10:00:57 PM
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Thanks Ludwig and Wendy, getting somewhere at last. Sorry you think the migration act is a living entity Leigh, it is just paper.

Now to the notion of mandatory detention.

Let's suppose that Chad decided to mandatorily detain 250,000 Sudanese refugees and then process their claims. How long would it take when Australia with all our wealth and resources cannot manage 4,000 at the very highest for one year.- Remember Chad got them all in a few weeks and we watched.

Some of the refugees might eventually end up in Australia but these days it will take 17 years - but imagine the cost of 250,000 refugees locked up for 17 years without work rights?

Here is the lunacy of the situation. They use the word mandatory fo all people without a visa. But they only lock up people who come on boats while 60,000 people each year who stay after their visas run out are not locked up.

Therefore it is discriminatory detention so the act should be changed. It is just a law and can be changed, it is not the holy writ as Leigh seems to think.

The word used these days is unauthorised Leigh and even that is meaningless as the Migration act of Australia and the refugee convention authorises anyone to come here.

Jolanda, there is no requirement for muslims to live in muslim countries when it is muslim factions killing each other any more than christians have to stay where they are being killed.

Get a grip woman.
Posted by Marilyn Shepherd, Saturday, 20 May 2006 3:36:02 AM
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yo me Mate M . I think what Jolanda was saying was its better for them considering all they have been put through not to be expected to ajust to our imoral ways.
You know. foorty a cold can the beach with belly buttons showing.
Lets face it that sort of freedom must be real hard to take.
Then those poor people have to try to control their kids when they start doing the same as the Australian kids.

Those poor kids must then get so confused between the two cultures.

Dont you agree.
Its too much for the poor children of muslim laws to ajust to?

Thats what she was saying i do beleive.
isnt that right jolanda.
Posted by Wendy Lewthwaite, Saturday, 20 May 2006 2:47:09 PM
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Yes Wendy, it amazes me how so many Muslims are so critical about the Western culture and ways yet they dont seem to see or stop to consider or critisize their own culture and ways or acknowledge how it has negatively impacted on their own people's lives!
Posted by Jolanda, Saturday, 20 May 2006 6:04:59 PM
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I dont know about anybody else but I am starting to see we need to rethink this.
We just had two adults and a child of our own people drowned .
If people did not come unlawfully we wouldnt have to put our own at risk at god knows what costs.

As for rape and bashings we have those same offenses being carried out in regional areas in Australia.

Surley their must be a better way for us to do sercurity other sending our people out in boats after them.

The airforce must need to keep their hours up or something.

While planes are expensive it would be quicker and surley easier to spot people smugglers , then they could sent a boat or sea plane to intercept.

If anybody has any ideas on how we can keep our people out of dangerous waters in order to do sercurity it would be good to hear.

Mean time lets stop to think about the familys who have lost their loved ones including a child at sea when the boarder sercurity boat
went down.

Too often to take for granted the dangerous services carried out by these quite heros.

Its time to mourn our own lost at sea not breaking the law but doing their jobs.
Posted by Wendy Lewthwaite, Saturday, 20 May 2006 9:37:35 PM
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Hooray for Wendy, we do need a rethink of this. Under Australian law it is perfectly legal to catch a boat to Australia and seek protection from persecution in other countries - the very fact that 98% of the Iraqis and Afghans are still here proves that point.

It's shocking that DIMA purchased an unseaworthy craft and five people are dead, what were they thinking and why are DIMA officials acting as taxis for islanders out there in the Torres Strait as that is not their job.

How about this for a plan - last year we squandered $12 million keeping 2 men on Nauru - that would have built 60 decent homes for aboriginal families, $73 million locking up people in Baxter and other places - another 365 homes for aborigines.

We don't have to lock up people to protect ourselves from them - they aren't criminals. We should be spreading the money available in different directions instead of wasting so much.

And taking the old Woomera tin sheds to house the aborigines in Alice Springs is about as insulting as one can get.

Don't forget this is a thread about christian Papuans who are being tortured and murdered by the same people who slaughtered 183,000 East Timorese while we watched on. Do we want that to happen to the Papuans?

If they had been able to fly they would not be locked up but would still be the same people so what is the point of locking them up?

If we get sensible we could settle two major problems with a swipe of a pen and allocation of money to different places.

Stop being a ratbag Leigh and actually think about it.
Posted by Marilyn Shepherd, Sunday, 21 May 2006 3:02:56 AM
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Sure Marilyn, and once the word gets out that Australia is taking in anybody who feels persecuted and wants to live in a Country where they will get support and help and rights with no questions asked, do you really think that only 'a few' will take up that option?

What happens, and it will happen, when refugees and assylum seekers come in large numbers. Who is going to pay to settle them and support them, already Australia is struggling to support their own? That money that you say that will be saved by not putting refugees in detention that should go to Aboriginal people, will not get a chance to go to Aboriginal people as it will need to be spent to settle and support those that come. When do we close our borders for the benefit of our own people! I believe we should do it now and spend the money on the Aboriginal people and on Australians who are in need. If we do not we will continue to go backwards and Aboriginal people and the disadvantaged will be the ones that will be sent the furthest backwards as those that come here seem to have more rights and get more support than our own.

Everybody needs to stop in their own Country and look at what they can do to support and encourage change there. Moving people to different countries does not fix the problems, it just moves the problems and creates more displaced people and issues. Everybody knows that when there is a mixture of displaced people and a culture clash in the end there will be hostility, violence and even war.
Posted by Jolanda, Sunday, 21 May 2006 12:42:43 PM
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Dont get too excited about Wendy yet M we have a way to go before we agree on everything.

However if you would be so kind as to point me to Government docs to show we spent 10 Million on two people last year it would go a long way to assist because we certainly would require an urgent enquiry into that!.

You say 98 per cent who came have stayed here on one hand and how unfair we are for sending the other two percent back.

I would be interested to know out of those 98 percent how many are working but thats for another day.

That means that 98 percent of these people told the truth which leaves me concerned about our sercurity checks because that defies the laws of average and I am including Ausies in that as well.

This takes a lot of thought not a knee jerk reaction and there are no simply answers.

Remember these people pay quite a bit of money to get onto these boats so it is!! a planned trip.

Then again I agree with you that the students and the biz visa people are a greater threat because there are more of them>
more people raises the odds its that simply.

When we speak of threat M we are not just talking about being bombed but a threat to our standards and culture as well.

Not being allowed to say the lords prayer in schools and taking bibles out of hospitals because it might offend people of different culture is the ultimate insult to our fallen soldiers
Lets We Forget.

I I do not agree just because you sign a bit of paper you are an Australian it takes more that that.

There is a way to help genioun people by establishing them in regional areas to built the country up like our father and grandfathers and mothers.

So if you want to come here you must expect to work and work hard,

No free rides I am afraid.

Also english and our way of life to be adopted.
Posted by Wendy Lewthwaite, Sunday, 21 May 2006 6:11:50 PM
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M If you are seriuos about things its going to take a lot more than posting comments that mainly offend everybody on here. First of all you need to actually do something like come up with a plan working with Government and many community groups. I beleive the regional area share farms between overseas investors and Australian farmers aboriginal people is the way forward. draw up a proposal or come up with some ideas that help Australia and provide work and a future for some of these people is the way forward.
Interested in what you come up with
Posted by Wendy Lewthwaite, Sunday, 21 May 2006 11:54:59 PM
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http://www.smh.com.au/news/world/spain-calls-for-help-on-migrants/2006/05/21/1148150126103.html
Posted by Jolanda, Monday, 22 May 2006 1:39:39 PM
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Wendy Lewthwaite

Your personal attacks on Marilyn and public 'outing' as a 'welfare recipient'; and therfore, not entitled to participate in public debate is a poor reflection on yourself young lady.
Posted by Liz, Sunday, 4 June 2006 4:20:59 PM
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Liz, there is a history here that you are obviously not aware of in relation to Marilyn Shephard.

I tend to agree with Wendy.
Posted by Jolanda, Sunday, 4 June 2006 4:26:37 PM
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No Jolanda
What was said was that M did not contribute to the huge out goings caused by migrants and boat people.

Please show me where I have said she cant make comments or anybody on welfare cant make comments.

Clearly what I was drawing attention to was like labour sprout off about they will do this and do , or we should do this and that they have no expereince with running to a budget and even less idea about accountabilty. We only need to look at the huge debt left last time for the tax payers to struggle for years to get us all out of it.

Jolanda you must stop making claims and mis quoting people it seems to be a regular happening with you.
As a matter of fact M is a interesting person and at least she really cares about others.

This forum is not meant for personal snipes and its not my fault you have been threatened with being sued for deformation on several ocashions.
I am starting to see why.
So show me where I said people on welfare were not allowed to comment?

I like M for the record but that does not stop me pointing out we must look after Australians and aboriginal people as a number one.

You know me as the only person who offered to help you after your four hundred posts so fair go. Remember the one person who was answering your request for free legal help.
Yes I am truely a awful unfair person an i not.
I am entiled to my own thoughts just as much as you and its too easy for people to say we should pay for all these people who want to come here while our own aboriginals are doing it sometimes even harder than them.
Posted by Wendy Lewthwaite, Sunday, 4 June 2006 5:14:29 PM
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Wow take it easy Wendy. I meant that I agree with Wendy in that if Maralyn can spend so much time on the internet fighting with so much gusto and passion, then she can get a job using a computer and really shouldn't need be on welfare.

That she has a right and is entitled to comment goes without saying and I myself dont harbour any illfeelings towards you or Marilyn. WE are all doing what we have to do.

Obviously I didn't make that clear and for that I am sorry, I dont know why you think that my intention is to discredit you or anyone else for that matter and/or why you are so defensive when it comes to me.
Posted by Jolanda, Sunday, 4 June 2006 5:25:44 PM
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Jolanda I owe you a huge apology. The posts was not yours and I am sincerly sorry.
I hope you can forgive me.
I thought it was Od because we have always agreed on most issues and in particular that one.
To be honest I was hurt thinking that silly comment came from you.

I know as a tax payer you have always shown a great resposibilty to our overall costs and you would be my example of someone who has really become an Ausie and! more so than most.

Thats what I get for doing two things at once.

As for dizzy lizzy The same question applies. Show me where I said people on welfare could not make comments and stop mis quoting me.
Posted by Wendy Lewthwaite, Sunday, 4 June 2006 6:14:45 PM
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Well Wendy, I guess since I am such a forgiving person I will find it in my heart to forgive you.

I must say I found your reaction as odd as you found the comments that you thought were from me and straight away I thought (hoped) that you must have somehow misunderstood me, but of course I wasn’t 100% sure.

It was a real shock and quite bizarre and looking back now I find it a little bit funny and I must confess I have had a similar thing happen to me.

Anyway, things happen.
Posted by Jolanda, Monday, 5 June 2006 9:29:00 PM
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Wendy Lethwaite

Here we go miss pleasant personality"

'Get a job and try paying taxes before you tell the rest of us how awful we are.'

Cheers

Dizzy Lizzy
Posted by Liz, Sunday, 9 July 2006 9:08:17 PM
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