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The Forum > Article Comments > Give ‘babe’ some wriggle room > Comments

Give ‘babe’ some wriggle room : Comments

By Mirko Bagaric, published 9/5/2006

We are camped somewhere near the base of the moral mountain when it comes to pig farming.

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Lizey, it is very easy to write about the "horrors" that people have told you accompany the prosecution of the meat trade, but I fail to understand how you can at the same time support the enslavement of animals as pets.

Even calling them "companion animals" demonstrates a willingness to close your eyes to the reality of the unnatural life they are forced to lead. In exactly the same way, it would appear, that you accuse others of closing their eyes to the cruelty that you imagine "food animals" suffer.

If we take your advice, and "adopt a companion animal from a shelter and save his or her life because otherwise they might be put-down", are we not perpetuating this strange and barbaric practice? Surely it would be kinder to include keeping pets in the definition of cruelty to animals, and prosecute owners accordingly?

It is also distressing to see the exploitation of what we conveniently describe as "working animals" - sheepdogs, dogs-for-the-blind, organ grinders' monkeys etc. - in much the same way as slaves were put to work in the cotton fields.

I wouldn't go so far as to say that this is a clear case of double standards...

On second thoughts, I would.
Posted by Pericles, Tuesday, 16 May 2006 8:39:44 AM
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Realist asked:

>Do vegans live longer than normal people?

First, Realist, vegans ARE normal people. And yes, according to some studies (see http://www.ivu.org/oxveg/Talks/veglongevity.html), live longer than non-vegans. See also the Okinawan and Hunza people’s diets.

>Please show me some evidence to back your claim that we dont need meat.

Me!. Been vegetarian (no meat) for 13 years or so. Vegan for 2 years. Healthy as a bull elephant (they are also vegan). Not to mention the millions of other veg*ns around the world.

>Thanks to meat our brain has developed faster, why do you want to try and reverse evolution?

Fell for the meat industry ad did we? If eating meat develops brains how come lions don’t go to uni?

>There are some valid vegan arguments but the end of the day, Tofu sucks and meat is a vital part of our diet for Iron, proteins, vitamins & acids and the like.

Meat is not vital (see above). I gave my 105th blood donation last week – iron level is very good. Tofu is good – many different textures and takes the taste of what you’re cooking it with. But there is more to a vegan diet than tofu.

>Yes we dont need it to survive essentially, but we dont need the foods that you eat to survive either, ie we could survive off meat alone also.

Dead wrong, Realist. Meat has no fibre, or vitamin C, or folate, or antioxidants etc. Try it. Eat nothing but meat for a few weeks. You’ll save heaps on toilet paper but spend it all on antacids.

>It is shameful to hurt living things, but guess what we are a parasite that destroys the planets and by the time we do so, our species will have moved on to the next world.

I might even agree with you on that one.
Posted by MOS, Tuesday, 16 May 2006 4:19:53 PM
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Pericles said:

>It would be nice to think that we could address the inequities of human-to-human behaviour before going off about bunnies and piggies. Receptus ignavorum, as my Latin master would say, the coward's retreat. It is so much easier to show concern for widdle wabbits than tackle really serious problems.

I can do no better then quote Peter Singer, “[W]hen nonvegetarians say that “human problems come first” I cannot help wondering what exactly it is that they are doing for human beings that compels them to continue to support the wasteful, ruthless exploitation of farm animals.” – Animal Liberation, 1990

--

Yabby seems to be confusing sustainability (the ability of the meat industry to continue – to maintain a supply of animals) with the issue of cruelty. Farming humans would be sustainable but not ethical.

Also, I did not suggest we crop all the land being used for grazing. I said that the crops already being grown would be sufficient to feed the world if it was not being inefficiently fed to animals to produce meat.
Posted by MOS, Tuesday, 16 May 2006 4:21:44 PM
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Interesting quote, MOS, but far too deep for me. What exactly is he saying?

"...I cannot help wondering what exactly it is that [non-vegetarians] are doing for human beings that compels them to continue to support the wasteful, ruthless exploitation of farm animals."

What does Mr Singer mean by "doing for human beings"? Does this imply mis-treatment, if so, what kind? Or does he mean charity? Fellow-feeling? Kindness? Please explain.

And how does this behaviour "compel" other behaviours? What is the connection between what an individual "does for" other people and the way animals are treated?

What is the link between the two, do you think? Where is the compulsion?

Or is it just another mindless slogan, designed to sound really meaningful, but actually just a string of emotive words?

Sorry to ask so many questions, but you have to admit it is a pretty pathetic quote.
Posted by Pericles, Tuesday, 16 May 2006 4:47:11 PM
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Yabby, I wouldn't call myself a city slicker having lived in a sheep, dairy and beef farming area of Gippsland since age three. And living in this area of the country I continually see the type of cruelty that reaffirms my decision to be vegan. I see trucks crammed full of sheep and cattle without water in the heat (Far different to any experience I’ve had on a train/bus, and when I go on a train I usually know where I’m heading and am prepared for a different feeling than walking on land), farm animals in paddocks with no shade on 30+ degree days and sheep and cattle in saleyards: again with no shade and little water if any. I also see skinny cows and sheep in paddocks with almost no grass and cattle with their tails sliced off futilely trying to shoo the flies away.

No, I have never been to a meatworks but I must ask, have you? What I have seen though is videos and other evidence that shows that meat-workers take short-cuts and abuse animals when they think no-one is watching. In fact many abattoir workers receive injuries from still moving animals that are meant to be dead. In any case I think the killing of an innocent animal is wrong, just as the murder of a human is wrong.
Of course I do not agree with irresponsible pet owners leaving their animals in a boring environment all day and many people who “own” an animal are definitely not qualified to look after one.
I do believe though, that in a caring, interesting and loving household like mine, animals do not feel enslaved. Dogs and cats have been domesticated now for thousands of years, and while I question the actions of the first person to hold captive a wild wolf and try to “pet” him, our animals have now evolved into creatures that can hardly fend for them-selves in the wild and totally rely on us. If you are suggesting I release my rescued Chihuahua into the wild then I can hardly take you seriously.
Posted by lizey, Tuesday, 16 May 2006 6:11:42 PM
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Yabby, (continued) These days sheep are domesticated animals too and while a paddock is now the natural environment for them (Just as our homes and backyards have become the natural environment for our dogs), the premature death, cruel transport and painful mutilations (like mulesing for those raised for wool) are far from natural to any animal.
You also say you have a pet lamb (Hang on I thought you were against “enslaving” animals?). But have you ever wondered why your lamb didn’t flinch when his/her tail was sliced off? Most likely it was not because she/he didn’t find it painful but because sheep are prey animals and instinctively they try not to show pain as it may cause them to be singled out by a predator because they look weak and like an easy target. (As I look after 2 sheep of my own please don’t try to label me ignorant)

Pericles, as I stated above I believe that the lives dogs and cats now lead feels natural to them. As long as our “pets” have plenty of healthy food, room to play, plenty of exercise, a companion or two, water and some TLC I believe they are truly happy. But cats and dogs are not the only rescued animals I share my life with, I also have 2 sheep, 2 horses and 2 goats. I believe all these animals are happy to lead out there long lives in a large and shady paddock, something animals raised for food never get to do. I would hardly call going out of your way to provide for an animals every needs cruelty and I don’t see how you would call this abuse but condone slaughtering an animal for food. Adopting an animal from a shelter saves a life and luckily doesn’t support the people who continue to breed animals for “pets”
Posted by lizey, Tuesday, 16 May 2006 6:13:09 PM
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