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The Forum > Article Comments > The ALP should take on the IR laws > Comments

The ALP should take on the IR laws : Comments

By Mark Hearn and Grant Michelson, published 20/4/2006

Labor should be bold enough to offer Australia a better way.

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Gentlemen, I agree wholeheartedly, in my opinion it would be a crying shame to allow the ALP to win the next election purely on the notion that the public had had enough of the incompetence and falsehoods of the current Government.

The ALP should have to prove they are ready to govern by setting out a full list of policies, it looks as though we are back to Beazley's small target theory, which is bloody disquisting.

If they are an alternate Government, let them put forward alternate policies for public scrutiny.
Posted by SHONGA, Thursday, 20 April 2006 12:20:56 PM
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To do so would place the ALP in the position of the Commonwealth taking away State powers - the Premiers would not like that.

The subtlety of WorkChoices is that it operates through the Corporations Act and has in fact broken the stranglehold that various union bodies had on employment. Furthermore the Govt has said that collusive arrangements with business AND unions are unfair and unlawful.

The ALP have nowhere to go except scaremongering, its what they are best at.
Posted by rog, Thursday, 20 April 2006 8:31:22 PM
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Keep the masses lean and keen so the economy will be efficient and the tax dollars will flow to Govt.This is a laudable and practical solution to achieve an efficient economy but where is the justice?

What the Howard and Keating Govts have failed to acknowledge is that the masses don't mind sacrifice if there is a real reward for obscurity and hard work at the end of their working lives.

How about no tax on super contributions for the working poor?Why should those who have been good and faithful workers be punished while the bludgers still get a free ride?

The distribution of wealth should not be done via Govt welfare but we should use the share market as a means of rewarding those who are dedicated to their jobs.

Why not reduce the tax for workers who take up shares in the company for which they work?

We have too many dis-incentives for ordinary folk to do the extra hard yards and too often reward the slothful poor and greedy capitalists.
Posted by Arjay, Thursday, 20 April 2006 9:08:08 PM
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As a lifetime trade unionist and as a Labor member I am not threatened by change and reform.
Whorkchoices is none of the above, unions will evolve and the author is not far from the future system we will have.
I am quite sure the ALP is crafting its plan for IR now but clearly wish to warn the party it about time to let us in on the plan.
Kim Beazley has in the past run a last minute policy release plan, and it failed, as it should have, policys that need to be hidden till the last minute are unworthy of all who await a non conservative repare team goverment in Australia.
Posted by Belly, Friday, 21 April 2006 7:10:50 AM
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I think the politics are against a fully rounded ALP IR policy until the High Court reaches a decision on the scope of the Work Choices laws.

On the policy issues - why should unions accept AWAs ? As the authors note the take up rate is laughable and is only likely to expand where employers can cut pay and conditions. Isn't that something an incoming Labor Government may seek to remedy ? The simplest cure is to get rid of them.

I would have thought the first responsibility of an Opposition is to oppose bad laws. WorkChoices is a bad law and should be opposed. I see nothing wrong in saying nothing more than Labor will get rid of it, if that implies returning to the 1993 Act then we may be getting somewhere
Posted by westernred, Friday, 21 April 2006 11:05:08 AM
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While the ALP does need to take on the IR Laws it first or at least at the same time needs to put some flesh on its parched bones.

After of the last election the common cry from the party after some weeks of examining entrails and mourning the loss of Mark What's his name those MPs left standing where heard to say the public simply did not know what the ALP stood for - they still do not.

For the ALP to try simply to pick apparent winners, like the IR laws seem to be,is a fragile and short sighted policy.

Even if WorkCoices is unpopular unjust or un anything else the party needs to be more than just a one trick pony - people get used to the unfair and unjust - the coalition plenty to divert our atention and they will use it.

Howard has already pointd to the "troubles" in Oceania and how we may be needed for longer than we think - spare us that he says we are required to do the 'heavy lifting" - and he has rekindled our fear of northern invaders by ruling out of bounds even more of our country.

they can then scare the crap out us by suggesting that there is a wave of geriatrics just over the horizon ready to swarm down and demand to be looked after - so there is no way we can afford tax relief or infrastructure developement, or fee relief for indebted students, or relief from the costs imposed by rapcious oil companies, funded by the public purse regardless of how fat it is.

THe ALP needs strstegies to counter this sort of agenda:

The ALP needs to broaden its horizons and stop taking comfort in a few points scored after the Cole enquiry proceedings or a few mealy mouthed sound bites defending sacked workers when they know there is stuff all they can really do about it until they can convince people they are ready to take charge - and right now they aint.
Posted by sneekeepete, Friday, 21 April 2006 4:15:14 PM
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Latham was a problem the party bought on its self, we are over him[I am a party member] however in no way could we fail to use dreadfull AWB and workchoices and still claim to be worthy of goverment.
IR reform, true fair reform is a plank Labor will use and must, roll back will not do it.
AWA,s are going to have to one day compete with union agreements but will be around forever.
Just a true life issue one of my close anti union friends got single time for good Friday and easter Monday, now wants to join a union? its illeagle to not pay him overtime but after years of anti union gloating do I tell him?
Yes in time fair go mate still means something .
Posted by Belly, Saturday, 22 April 2006 7:39:47 AM
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sneeky,
It would seem that not for the first time, you have summed things up beautifully. Labor must move back to advocating on behalf of ordinary working families, if the think that they deserve to govern.
Posted by SHONGA, Saturday, 22 April 2006 12:50:20 PM
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Shonga I suspect you wish a Labor goverment as much as I do however we are like it or not in a place we richly deserve to be in OPERSITION.
We took Simon Creans mate Latham and he lead us into todays wilderness with policys that those working class Aussies you talk of did not follow, they in fact in large numbers voted for Howard ,first preference.
In fact it will be third time conservative voters who we need to win back to our side, some we made, and will never get back.
Labor will never get back in power with a plan to be a Robin Hood goverment.
The lights on the hill burned in a different time that familly now own 2 homes and do not think they are working class.
We will have a Labor goverment that rules for ALL Australians unlike this shameless goverment ruleing only for some.
Posted by Belly, Sunday, 23 April 2006 10:28:48 AM
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Belly,
You are correct about one thing, that is I would like to see the first Labor Government since 1975. However the Labor Party then had a swweeping range of policies for change. The current Labor Party either does not have same, or it is hiding them. Whitlam at least believed in change, had the policies, and was prepared to sell them. Beazley is Labor's anchor, polls suggesting Labor are ahead of the coalition still have Beazley at a low approval rate.

If the Labor Party wants to govern, it will need to come back to the centre left, or stay in Opposition perpetually.
Posted by SHONGA, Sunday, 23 April 2006 10:40:18 AM
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No joy in agreeing Kim is our problem today, you however devalue Hawk and Keiting both did far better than the self proclaimed best Prime minister we ever had.
My actist youth saw me a member of sack, the mob who tried to help Kerr get as much free grog as he could drink.
Relality has however set in , there are not enought center left voters left in Australia to EVER elect an ALP goverment.
Our path to the lodge is via the middle of the road only, no other way will unseat Johny short bottom.
Posted by Belly, Sunday, 23 April 2006 12:23:04 PM
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Belly,
So what do you think middle of the road is, if not centre-left? We have had Hawke, Keating and Howard, all right, and ultra right politicians, who have sold of the countries silver, e.g Commonwealth Bank, Quantas, etc. We now should give another direction a go, if sold correctly, it would work, the ALP is just as much backed by big business as the coalition is these days, and tend to serve their masters well.

It is time for the ALP to again represent the unrepresented, the working class, who have had no representation since 1975. The right wing of the ALP is indistinguishable from the Liberal party, which is why you hear "there all the same" comment in shopping centres.

Working families need a party who will represent their needs, if the ALP stays the way they are, I will not vote for them again as long as I live.
Posted by SHONGA, Sunday, 23 April 2006 7:11:46 PM
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Shonga if most shared your views it would condemn Australia to conservative goverment forever.
Labor can look back with pride to Hawk and Keiting who took us back to power so soon after Australia rejected the ALP.
It was in no small mesure those famillys and working Australians who both rejected then voted for us.
And surely it is those same folk who have kept Howard in the lodge.
Now the next step in Labors evalution awaits, reform in IR and so much more must come via a reformist Labor goverment.
No greens lead goverment will EVER rule Australia, only Labor offers goverment to non conservatives IR reform is step one .
The refomed policy must be execptable to most Australians and it will be but some unable to see change is needed will slug Labor again with the too conservative tag, far from it! Labor can change nothing from this side of the house and owes it to those Howard has victimised to win elections.
Posted by Belly, Monday, 24 April 2006 4:09:24 PM
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Belly,
No good voting Labor in to do the same as Howard, only in a smaller way. If what you are saying is "the ALP can't change" then they don't deserve to govern. It's time for a new mindset, it's time for the ALP to come back to the centre of politics, instead of being another less conservative, conservative party.

If they can't why would I vote foe another mini-Howard Government? Nothing to be gained there! We need a party that represents working people, not the big multi-national corporations. Big business already have the Liberal Party to help them, working people need likewise. If the Labor Party can't or won't do the job, what working person would vote for them? Not me or anyone I know.
Posted by SHONGA, Monday, 24 April 2006 5:06:02 PM
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We are drifting from the thread so my future posts will stay on it.
But I need to tell you as one of too many hungry kids I grew up with Labor and for so very long wanted what I think you want from them.
No rich man still I now understand the centre of Australian politics is far to the right of Socialism.
Labor is on its way to a new Labor position and never can you convince me Labor as it is now would inflict workchoices on us, or ofshore detention of children.
IR reform will startle you as it becomes clear even to me a proud trade union official that we can not roll back but we can craft a fair system with a real choice and real protection for all who work.
Your dream for my ALP is unrealistic and can never be acheaved.
A majority only can elect goverments, and beleave me middle of the real road voters are not always working class.
Can you not see the thought this country would be governed only for some[unless you are John Howard ] is ofensive?
Posted by Belly, Tuesday, 25 April 2006 7:33:29 AM
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Belly,
Yes it is offensive to me that working people are being left out, however it is just as real to me that the Labor Party is not offering an alternative, except more of the same, at a slower pace. Both major parties represent big business, and I will not vote for big business. It would appear that I will have to vote Green, as you hold out no prospect that a Labor Party Government will ever return to its roots, the Australian working people, which it was established to represent, but has long since wandered. I bet the top people in the Labor Party are scratching their heads, thinking "how can we win" all they have to do is design policy around the working men and women of Australia, sadly I bet they see this as a difficult exercise. Hawke and Keating sucked up to the rich, and average working families suffered a 13% decrease in real wages over their time in Government. Howard takes the population for fools, are so far they are proving him correct. Labor offers no solutions...
Posted by SHONGA, Tuesday, 25 April 2006 3:59:57 PM
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Belly,would be an AWU official i guess. An ALP minus them would be refreshing.An industrial system minus them undercutting progressive active Unions would be refreshing. Perhaps new IR laws could contain KPI benchmarks to maintain registration, as an Industrial Organisation.This may even lead to Union membership growth.
Posted by hedgehog, Friday, 28 April 2006 9:31:23 AM
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hedgehog,
What a brilliant idea, the AWU nd KPI's that is. I would also like to see KPI's for everyone, including managers, posted on walls so that everyone knew, what everyone else was supposed to be doing, and also an anual independent appraisal of all jobs, including the bosses job. Perhaps the boss could do the appraisal of the workforce, followed by the union's appraisal of the bosses job?
Posted by SHONGA, Friday, 28 April 2006 3:30:59 PM
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Nice one Shonga, your on the ball. Have a nice weekend whle we still can. That would be a good KPI to lock in the AWU. No selling out on the weekend.
Posted by hedgehog, Friday, 28 April 2006 4:08:53 PM
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hedgehog,
Yes isn't it ironic, the union that started it all has slowly whittled away to become the weakest of them all. I had the misfortune to be a member 30 years ago, we had a stopage over a safety issue involving insuffiecient protection for workers in a toxic gas situation. Well the AWU rep turned up, the first thing he said was, "ok if you go back to work I'll talk to them" we replied "YOU GO IN AND TELL THEM WHAT WE WANT, WE'LL WAIT AND IF THEIR ANSWER IS SATISFACTORY, WE WILL THEN GO BACK TO WORK" he was left in no doubt what we would settle for, so did the business under duress.The AWU only exists these days to do the employers bidding, sad really, if they were otherwise inclined they could do the labour movement a lot of good, happy Labour Day mate...
Posted by SHONGA, Friday, 28 April 2006 4:37:34 PM
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I will not defend myself ,my members will do that and over 100 who left without being invited other unions to come to mine.
Members who while not mine HAD food for a week on $1.000 I lent them instead of paying my rates and sweated in fear untill I saw it back in the bank.
Look with an open inquireing mind, if refuseing to stand over bosses is weak mark me weak, if refuseing to be so radical I add to the 75% of workers who are non unionists mark me weak.
If knowing ALL UNIONS exist ONLY for members and ALL have some who should be unloaded mark me weak.
If knowing radical dreams are not ever the way to goverment, and that Hawk and Keiting are great Labor icons not your demons mark me weak.
But NEVER weak enought to turn my back on the only party that can remove conservative goverment , and brave enought to explore change and new ways to serve real workers not those you fail to admitt think in different terms than you.
Workers united gentlemen can never be defeated, and that is all I am.
Each card I hand out is given with these words ment from the heart I will never let you down.
Posted by Belly, Saturday, 29 April 2006 5:29:35 PM
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Belly,
Itis not you that is the problem mate, it is your union. I have said before that I believe you to be a genuine person, however the upper echolons of your union really don't care less for working people including Bill Shorten. Within any organisation there are good people, you being one of those, can you not see that it should have been the awu that should have provided the $1,000 not you.

Much like churches who sit on a fortune but ask the parishioners to shell out every week, the awu is a parasitic organisation, who are happy to see people like you extending themselves taking on their responsibility. If you can't see that mate, you would be like the majority of members who you try to represent, who work free overtime, and are subservient to their employer. You are a good person, employers {awu} take advantage of that fact, and load you up with extra work, knowing that you will move heaven and earth to get it done.

Unions established an 8 nhour day, how many of your members work the 8 hour day, including yourself mate? Open your eyes and see reality, Hawke and Keating were the servants of the wealthy, as all conservative PM's are. Labor can't free us of conservative government, while they remain conservative themselves, a move to the centre is needed, they are unable to provide it.
Posted by SHONGA, Sunday, 30 April 2006 8:53:30 AM
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SHONGA Brother I have and want no comrades, the reality is my life has seen me in any union that covered the work I did but always the AWU as well.
I work as best as I can with all unions and load myself up with the work not the other way around.
Hawk and Keiting[ I would gladly kick Paul for his endless repeating himself] are heros.
And while seaking no internal battle radical unions put us in harms way, all of us.
Those hungrey sacked building workers came from another city centric union not mine.
Fact is they shared $54.000 in back pay as a result of my weak unions actions, no fee was ever paid or asked of them.
The Labor reform of IR will add fuel to the insulting view that the centre is in fact very far to the left of politcs.
Workers are not even commited to unions 75% are non unionists, how can we dream of a socialist goverment being elected by such.
And Labor even new Labor will do far better than any conservative goverment.
I am proud of my union and the emerging future Labor goverment, but aware the middle of todays road is crowded with Howard voters we are duty bound to win back.
And all unions must not fear constant change and improvement in ways we serve members, SHONGA would you have me not take a membership card from a worker who voted conservative?
Posted by Belly, Sunday, 30 April 2006 1:03:34 PM
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elly,
Of course I would mate, the AWU and the Labor Party is conservative enough without adding fuel to the fire. I see the reason why 75% of workers not belonging to unions as a reflection of how the largest Australian Union has let its members down, and the word has spread, sadly enveloping all unions.

Modern workers now see all unions as irrelevent, sadly the awu in 95% of cases takes the bosses version of the truth, leaving the worker in the lurch. I am not saying in your case mate, but in most. My mother who is 78 still tells me of when she was a young apprentice hairdresser, and the awu that she was a member of told her exactly that "we take the bosses word" funny how the more things change, the more they stay the same.

With a Labor Party dominated by this philosophy, why on Earth would fair dinkum worker vote Labor? We want a party that will stand up for us, and improve our living standards, useing progressive policies. Perhaps a change of emphasis from the ALP Right wing policy of, National Competition policy, to a National Excellence and Efficiency policy, I saw mentioned in my local newspaper by a letter writer. Poverty in Australia is far too prevelent for a rich country, we cannot rely on the awu or the Labor Party anymore to help us, we should begin a new party to represent working people, as it seems Labor doesn't do that anymore, especially with the domination of the right wing awu in control.
Posted by SHONGA, Sunday, 30 April 2006 2:26:44 PM
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Belly, what do you thing would have happened in France if legislation similar to WorkChoices was introduced? Viva la France. We dont need the Shortens of the world hosing down the aspirations of the workers.
Posted by hedgehog, Monday, 1 May 2006 9:24:40 AM
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We do not live in France your view implies French workers have more get up and go than Australians, and fails to understand the issue in France .
IR reform at the hands of the next ALP goverment must adress the concerns of all who work in Australia not just we minority unionists.
I will not denegrate other unions but suspect you fail to understand the real harm not dream time stuff exptremist have bought on us all.
IR reform in my view will not include roll back, it will be crafted by men of true merit like Steve Smith and Bill Shorten for real Australia , not the extreme left.
Note however centre unions are serveing centerist workers numbers speak for themselves radical actions harm workers familys.
Labor is bold enought to offer Australians a better way and the AWU follows it members not leads them.
Posted by Belly, Monday, 1 May 2006 11:14:12 AM
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Belly,
Now there you are correct and so is hedgehog, Aussie workers are apathetic, and subservient, unions have to take the lead and encourage workers to stand like they have in France. Don't hold your breath for wossy Bill Shorten {right wing} or his awu to be a leader in this though. Bill is toooo busy right now engineering his way into the federal parliament to be concerned about the plight of the ordinary working family. This is his latest excuse anyway, new week, new excuse, bloody typical.
Posted by SHONGA, Monday, 1 May 2006 11:27:36 AM
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Well Belly if it is true that the AWU follows its members, they should all start charging the Officials fees. Leaders are supposed to lead. Steve Smith probably cant spell Industrial Relations, so dont make me laugh.
Posted by hedgehog, Monday, 1 May 2006 2:07:53 PM
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hedgehog,
Steven Smith is a lawyer, as so many Labor MP's seem to be, I think he could spell Industrial Relations mate, but I seriously doubt whether or not he would have an understanding of what it means to us.

The whole trouble with the Labor Party is they have no representation from working people. They choose millionaires or lawyers as candidates, these people have no idea what the average working family go through every week. Until they endorse a few actual workers I will vote Green, C.E.C. or something other than Liberal/National, and make sure my preference to Labor is third or forth on my ballot.
Posted by SHONGA, Monday, 1 May 2006 3:21:10 PM
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Labor is indeed bold enought to offer Australia a better way.
Yesterday like any other work day I had my meals in lunch sheds on civil construction sites.
Its clear workers are unhappy but also clear only Labor can change anything.
The left radiacal left are Labors bigest threat, and like it or not non reprsenative of workers and unionists.
Labor must take on the very left in our party and remember policys that see more refuse to vote Labor than come back to us are votes for Howard, no one who votes for Howard has any right to be critical of Labor.
New Labor is the only way and a new leader a must unless we do lack the will to win.
Posted by Belly, Wednesday, 3 May 2006 7:50:42 AM
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I take offence at Belly's ongoing disparaging remarks concerning the 'left'. Please explain what the 'left' consists off in your worldly mind. If it consists of people opposed to characters like Shorten, Smith, Swan et al then i am a crazy lefty.
The aforementioned characters have one policy. They would like Howard,Costello,Abbott, et al jobs. Belly i know your not a bad person, but you really need to broaden your political horizon,beyond your AWU training courses and monthly journals.
Posted by hedgehog, Wednesday, 3 May 2006 9:44:50 AM
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hedgehog,
That's for bloody sure mate, he is a good apple in a bad bunch, but has been so brainwashed, he can't see the forest for the trees. If workers stand up for themselves, he has been brainwashed to think that we are "crazy lefties" I nearly pucked when I saw Bill Shorten of TV comforting the miners families in Tassie. If the union had been doing it's job, it would have reported safety concerns, so he was as much to blame as the company. He even described what the company was going to do to rescue the 2 survivors for the company, that spoke volumes for me, I was disgusted.
Posted by SHONGA, Wednesday, 3 May 2006 12:57:15 PM
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I am 60 years of age the son of a railway fettler and the eldest survivor of 16 kids.
My trade unionist dad often sat hungry at one end of the table while my mum did the same at the other so we could eat.
We did have one great food in abundance ,hope and dreams of a stable ALP goverment.
I grew up full of dreams of the left they got shattered over and over again, I was an active union delgate long before my time as an oficial.
No one can tell me my age or low social standing makes my views wrong, my spelling and grama or lack of it come from big country family illness.
That is leaveing school to help feed my brothers and sisters, one day after we all are, gone ALL UNIONS will again understand only the best may serve members.
Armed with the advice a fair days pay deserves a fair days work, and that being mainstream is not a sin.
I am proud to be a worker in the AWU and have no need to be anything else to serve my members.
And only they can judge me like me they are mostly mainstream
Posted by Belly, Wednesday, 3 May 2006 4:46:37 PM
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Belly,
We are not having a go at you mate, you seem to me to be a lovely bloke, it is the high levels of the AWU we are having a go at. I was a member of the Federated Clerks Union before it became part of the ASU. I know union representation back the front, and have been in many unions, the ARU, AWU, FCU, and many more.

I know if the secretary does not push ahead with a claim because of a cosy relationship with the employer. Mate I have been taken advantage of too many times by the AWU promising me the world, and delivering nothing, I wish you well, in your endevours to represent your members, one thing I can say is you are the most genuine AWU man I have ever had the pleasure to converse with, goof luck mate.
Regards, Shaun.
Posted by SHONGA, Wednesday, 3 May 2006 4:57:20 PM
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So Belly, it appears you have basically given up. Happy for the scraps from the table. Thats what silly billy has on offer for your members. No advancement, no sharing in the wealth, cop this and be thankful.
Posted by hedgehog, Wednesday, 3 May 2006 4:58:45 PM
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Once I grew out of my chilhood dreams of a socialist utopia I understood fairness in the workplace is best served by an honest understanding of both sides of the problem.
This has helped in the painless recovery of a great deal of money for my members and indeed members of other unions.
The sound of car doors closeing after mass meetings as oficials leave has often found Australias Weakest Union the only one left to shepard delegates into battle with management delegates from ALL unions on site and just me to get workplace justice without threats or blood.
Now that has to be a plan for Labors recrafted true reform of IR.
My members and most union members along with majority of workers who are non unionists do want fairness in the workplace.
One day it will return under a Labor goverment, meanwhile I get a grin out of some constantly putting the boot into my union and faction of the ALP but crying at my highlighting the minority nature of the left.
Posted by Belly, Friday, 5 May 2006 7:27:15 AM
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Belly, i have been a Union Official for 20 years.I have worked for 2 Unions twice. The AMWU and the LHMU. So this poster knows first hand and over an extended period, the worth and quality of your employer. I still remember as a young 28 year old commencing for the AMWU, when i realised that not all unions believed in solidarity.In those days we had the ASE,FIA and the AWU all backstabbing other unions and workers. It was no surprise to see them all amalgamate in the early 9o's. All three unions were the union of choice for the employer. My proudest moment as a unionist was as a young shop steward, kicking the FIA out of a factory and joining all the labourers and Trade Assistants into the Metal Workers Union. As one dinkum Union we then proceeded to become a factory paying above award wages and Super years before it became an Award entitlement.AWU was and remains a blot on the landscape.
Posted by hedgehog, Friday, 5 May 2006 10:08:35 AM
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hedghog you will unless blind notice I have realy tried to stop from insulting other unions.
Beleave me I will defend untill death centre right trade unions and workers rights.
I personaly out of my pocket have donated a lot more than I could aford to your unions picket lines.
Truth is you and I can understand we must differ, I have views on extremism you would not like.
After this incomeing Labor goverment brings IR reform, you and I must change the union movement must change, it is no sin to be a conservative worker friendly unionist.
I proudly have been a AWU member for longer than you understand, our ranks are full of ex officials from many unions , our members do not share your view.
Reform? can you understand that workplace justice is for all workers? that while only 25% are unionists true reform may well mean Liberal voters may want a fair go at work?
Do not give your union a halo, nore any right wing one the shaft reality has a part to play I am sure your British born leader understands that.
And understand ALL unions have air theaves that is true and sad none has more or less than an others.
Posted by Belly, Friday, 5 May 2006 4:32:08 PM
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WHAT ?
Posted by hedgehog, Monday, 8 May 2006 10:36:53 AM
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One of the ways Labor must be brave enought to bring honest change includes workplace reform.
Not the Howard workchoice but we must come to an understanding that Australian workers want different outcomes than some extremist radical left unions.
It is not hard to understand radical actions includeing standover tactics helped put us in this position, this is my truely held view.
I have seen teams of 3 union oficials visit workplaces in a fashion not unlike thugs.
Without shame I will fallow my commitment to a better fairer workplace ,and a more responsive election wining ALP , neather will be found in the dream world of the extreme left
Hedgehog, let my members judge me, and while I wonder why truely an oficial known for guts and total comitment fron the other construction union has said I am the best oficial in a quarter of my state?
Its no big deal my ego is not a problem I am only concerned at what workers think of me.
However for years this is as close as I have come to a blue with another unions oficial.
I am a working class Australian and oposed to the extreme left, most in fact always the majority of us are, live with it brother, I have no comrades but 2 million brothers.
Posted by Belly, Monday, 8 May 2006 11:06:22 AM
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The Unions brought WorkChoices on themselves? Belly you have the political antenae of an ant. You continue to delude yourself that employers want an equitable (win win) arrangement with thier workers.
Who do you think demanded that the Howard Gov. produce this venomouus attack on working mums and dads? What employer or employer body has spoken out against them? Belly when the electorate is given a choice between true Tories (Howard, Costello, Abbott) and Tories pretending not to be Tories (Beasley, Smith, Shorten) they vote for the real ones everytime.Workers need to look to the French if they are to salvage any of thier dignity and hard won rights.It is clear to me that you spend your days deluding yourself that you are usefull. You are an appeaser,however i suspect it is not your fault. You just fell in with the wrong crowd, and dont read much.
Posted by hedgehog, Monday, 8 May 2006 11:22:17 AM
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My post had to change it was writen and honest just a bit rude and it did not serve the trade union movement best so here it is.
Howard even started his own postal workers union a very long while ago, not bad for a bloke who does not read much.
He and his followers want to create a new working poor and a true unionist must opose this forever.
If your union has a picket line that you can not man I will do it for you! go to prison for you with pride too.
But in 1998 I was not amung the rabble who smashed windows in parlement house nore will you find me marching for left wishs.
I will not defend the air theaves in all unions who fail to understand the honor it is to serve workers, and those who think workplaces are warzones have my pity.
In a recent state wide EBA my union me in fact increased the offer in every major issue by simple demanding fairness not screaming, that mate is why my members include a good number who came and asked to change to our union service, and the promise we will never let you down is another reason.
I am from the NSW Labor cenre right, the only home for an election wining ALP and my union is proudly with its members at work always.
Never devalue my TOTAL comitment to fairness at work mate a worker however has views of his/her own and we have bugger all right to ask them to think like us, right or left its not our choice.
Posted by Belly, Monday, 8 May 2006 12:14:05 PM
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Belly

please use spell check your posts are becoming completely illegible.

For example, what the F#@K are 'air theaves'?

A comment I could make out was that you consider yourself to have many 'brothers' but no 'comrades'. Okay. What about SISTERS. Women work. We are effected by IR changes just as much as men in case it slipped your mind. At least 'comrade' included ALL workers, mate.

I am beginning to see you as a one track thinker. There is more to the working environment than accepting extreme right-wing, pro-employer/big business. Which if I understand your posts, you appear to be doing.

Workers are the foundation for any business - if they are not healthy, working in good conditions, in receipt of an appropriate wage for the type of work provided, then a business has nothing.

It is reprehensible that workers are perceived as a bizarre 'luxury' that can be dispensed with if a company wants to increase profits. Workers are a part of the deal. If a business doesn't factor in the cost of wages as a part of costings for a service or product, then it simply shouldn't be in business at all. It is twisted reality to view workers as extraneous to running a business.

A temp job I performed was for a large corporation that had sacked so many of its low level workers that teams of temps were required to fill in the vacancies. Absolute madness. The office was a large open plan with rows and rows of work stations in the centre (all vacant). Around the perimeter were little glass offices, each with a management level employee (all male) - they weren't sacked! While I was there this company started rehiring people. All this occurred years before the new IR laws. And now there is no protection for workers at all. People are now less than commodities.

Tell me, Belly, just what do you propose should be done about the IR changes?

And please check your spelling.
Posted by Scout, Tuesday, 9 May 2006 8:37:56 AM
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Thanks for that Scout. I didnt want to say it.God help the workers if Belly is the representation they can look forward to. Let me share this little pearler from issue 8 The Australian Worker (AWU magazine) at pg 46. "............Hedley prides himself on keeping a cool head during negotiations with Crane Enfield.But he's no pushover.During negotiations for a new EBA mid last year, Crane Enfield was pushing to increase casual workers from 5% to 30%. ....."Casuals have real problems getting a home loan-or any kind of finance," Hedley says.
"Management told us they could get through 30% by taking it to the Commission, but we kept at them and we got it down to 15%."

So there you have it. Negotiations a'la AWU.
Give away 10% and call it a victory. Cheers Belly.
Posted by hedgehog, Tuesday, 9 May 2006 11:04:02 AM
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Here is a story,the most important legall case in 100yrs <work choices> Howard voters are selfish and our kids will have to pay for the selfish actions of people like you. Howard is a blatant liar and you all vote for him because "oh no interest rates" or "he makes me feel safe" You all are selling out our country and I will never forgive Howard voters again.
IR, AWB, WELFARE TO WORK- DISABLED AS WELL, CHILDREN OVERBOARD,IRAQ, AND SELLS ALL OUR ASSETS. I am sure all your grandparents would kick you Howard voters square in the arse.
Please wake up and read what has been going on with this government and stop just worrying about yourselves, and if you didnt know already the Howard Government does not even control interest rates.
Posted by Sly, Tuesday, 9 May 2006 5:57:56 PM
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Sly, do you want to tell us something we dont know?
Posted by hedgehog, Wednesday, 10 May 2006 1:55:45 PM
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Hedgehog, you might now whats going on but 60% of voters either dont
know or have no morals. Enjoy your tax cuts because the new IR bill
will take away much much more.
Posted by Sly, Wednesday, 10 May 2006 3:17:39 PM
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born in a different time I the oldest of 16 railway fettlers kids left a school not yet a teenager, I had hardly attended to help feed my brothers and sisters do not dare say I am not a worker.
Now why the spelling matters has me wondering, on construction sites all over my area only I turn up, unable to threaten and scream at bosses some stay away.
The storey about me feeding another unions members is true!
And stop the rubbish that I am sexist comrade is a generic term for both male and female but tainted by its use by comunists, the same comunists who treated workers like slaves and thought human rights to be a western illness.
Labor will reform IR return rights to unions and workers, just yesterday I was told by a very big name in construction I must be told how to enter the site and meet only members!
Last never least I am ALP right the left are also rans in the party and the real world.
In the Tragic Tassy mine my proud AWU flew familly at no cost from Qld and Newcastle without highlighting that fact as some do we are after all familly.
Review the thread the left has run a hate and smear campaign against me and my union,,, explain then folks why we are Australias bigest union?
Reform will only come via a Labor goverment not ever the greens.
Posted by Belly, Wednesday, 10 May 2006 6:53:08 PM
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IR reform will indeed take away much more than tax cuts so will interest rates and fuel costs.
However watch some from left of centre try to drag down the ALP when in ofice it comes to real reform of the national IR landscape.
That reform can not be roll back ,unless constant turmoil at every goverment change is to be our future Labor must both be fair and truely reform.
Rights of entry, removal of so much aimed at killing unions and workers rights[not always the same thing] but maybe one national system will come.
some unions too must reform the way they service members and deliver outcomes, new better services like union employment help already are in place in more responsive unions.
IR reform is just one of many election wining plans the ALP needs and to remind its own left that SOLIDARITY has benefits.
Posted by Belly, Thursday, 11 May 2006 1:47:30 AM
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IMPORTANT PUBLIC ANNOUNCEMENT

The Howard IR laws has gone to the high court. The most important legal case in 50-100yrs and a growing number of legal experts are worried if the laws are not stopped it will be the beginning of the States demise.

This government is destroying Australia on so many fronts. The most damaging and badly written IR legislation that was rushed through parliament by a puppet coalition senate. Save us High Court!

How can a so called legal expert like Kevin Andrews put his name on such a bill. At least one senator admitted to not reading the bill and I suspect most
senators didn't bother.

A government that illegally sells Telstra who turns a blind eye to corrupt payments by AWB not to mention the compulsory ID card. That is if you are not rich.

Then there lies on Iraq, GST and children overboard and what about forcing disabled to work.

Howard and Liberal voters, you made a bad choice with your last vote. This time don't fall for the interest rate rubbish (which they don't control) and baby bonus bribes or small tax cuts.

One day we will have a PM who doesn’t stab us in the back. Mr Howard, go and live in America. Oh that’s right your on holidays there right now
Posted by Sly, Saturday, 13 May 2006 6:05:03 PM
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Belly,
With hedgehog, Scout Sly and myself all attempting to show you reason and common sense, do you yet have the notion that perhaps you could be wrong. If the ALP rids itself of the right wing {people who want to vote right wing have the Liberals} and return to being a traditional Labor {Labour} Party, representing low and middle income working families, they would gain much electoral support.

Ever head people in public say "the Labor Party isn't what it used to be"? This is because it has been hi-jacked by the right wing, in Townsville the ALP candidate for next years election is a millionaire owner of 7 McDonald's franchises. Now what if anything would he know about the plight of low to middle income Australian families who are bleeding profusely, answer NOTHING. He is of couse one of Belly's right wing mates, employing "child labour" to make his millions, he lives on the slopes of Castle Hill, looking down on the rest of us, and we are supposed to vote for him, no way me!

The federal, and for that matter state ALP parliamentarians do not have a single rep with a working class history to influence their policies, no wonder they have been in opposition at a federal level for a decade. In the States, it's a choice between tweedledee, and tweedeledum, so no reason to change your vote, same at federal level.

Unless the ALP turns itself into something usefull it will remain the largest pressure group in Australia, why, because it doesn't deserve to win. They need to rid themselves of many of the right wing, and become a centre-left party once more, a progressive party, not afraid to support alternate green energy, because their oil company backers wouldn't like it, what a sad position for a once great party to find itself in.
Posted by SHONGA, Sunday, 14 May 2006 5:46:26 AM
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Shonga please you do understand that the centre right of the ALP is not right?
That elections are won by the majority voteing for that party?
How can you for a second think the eldest son of 16 kids of a NSW railway fettler, trade union oficial, and party member would be anti worker?
Mate I repect you but do you understand those who complain about this phantom workers ALP need to tell me when it last existed!
Hawk had us execpting no wages rises, He and Keiting are our only sucsess storeys in my in life[I lived in whitlams times and was an extreme left Labor person].
Would you expect a Labor goverment lead by ANY of todays front bench to not.
Truely reform IR, not end ofshore dention of children, not try to fix Australia wide health, education and tax?
Not to want better superanuation outcomes?
Reality is I grew out of my socialistic dreams ,countrys must be governed for all, even now again as Tony Blair is being undermined by his own party surely its clear that demolition is takeing British Labor back to the opersition benchs.
Some of the anti Belly stuff is based on my conservtive trade union, I refuse to name and shame some of the childish acts of other unions that saw landslide of new members for mine.
And I will never stop looking for a stable long term Labor goverment.
Wonnt come? yes it will brother!
Posted by Belly, Sunday, 14 May 2006 8:40:24 AM
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Belly,
Cenre right? I have been a Labor Party member since 1974 and have never heard of such a group, perhaps it's an AWU smokescreen, sold to tou and others willing to listen, it does not exist! Bill Hayden for a while formed a centre-left, but there has never been a centre right mate. I belong to no faction, although my leanings would be classified as centre-left if it still existed. The Shadow cabinet may alter those issues a little, my point is the ALP began it's life as the political wing of the Union Movement, but has since been capured by the "elitist" right wing of the party, which includes Shorten and Ludwig, who only pay lip service to working people. You are correct the ALP must appeal to the majority to win an election. The majority of Australians are working people who are unable to distiguish the difference between a right wing ALP and a right wing Liberal Party, with good reason. The right wing massages the bosses, and the left does likewise to working people, which is why the ALP haven't been, nor look like being in government federally for a decade.

Unless and until the federal ALP exorcises the right wing from it's ranks, working people will never trust them with government, because they know it will be government for the wealthy, at their expense, much like the current government, so it comes down to a choice between "chips or straws" most are content to stick with the devil they know.
Posted by SHONGA, Sunday, 14 May 2006 9:20:01 AM
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SHONGA I truely admire your solidarity with workers and never before in a post have I said this mate but you have an unrealistic view of our partys future and its past.
Workers in large numbers have not voted for us for 3 elections, we need to understand your view of workers is wrong.
Your view that Labor did anything other than follow the voters is unrealistic.
The NSW Labor right has governed this state for record lengths and Hawk Keiting and our next Prime Minster will come with those colors.
some workers earn near $100.000 as little more than blue colar workers and may I asure you many vote conservate.
This unrealistic view is in part to blame for us being on the wrong side of the house, think for a while on this .
We both love the ALP, and hate workchoices however one of us is quite wrong ,how can you be confedent it is always me?
Posted by Belly, Sunday, 14 May 2006 5:17:31 PM
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Only ignorant and selfish people would vote for this current Howard Liberal Government after all the wrongs they have done. So go right ahead and vote for them. Your grand parents and kids will be so proud of your lack of morals.
Posted by Sly, Sunday, 14 May 2006 7:23:05 PM
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Shonga and Sly, please do not despair. The Bellys'of the world are sent to try us. Belly please research this rumour. Shorten was being briefed by Beaconsfield PR group. The story goes that the Lawyers were worried about the liability and didnt want the owners speaking in the media. Answer,fly little Billy back on Platts private jet from his overseas study tour aka Junket to be the media spokesperson. Look forward to hearing from you brother belly, and i suspect comrades Scout, Sly and Shonga do too.
Posted by hedgehog, Monday, 15 May 2006 9:53:07 AM
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My post has been removed twice, by me I remain proud to be an AWU oficial liked and trusted by my members, and many more than 100 from other unions who asked to come on board.
Each got my pledge I would die rather than break quote I WILL NEVER LET YOU DOWN.
From the NSW Labor right I know that is our future path, it leads to long term reformist Labor goverment.
Unions? new ways new ideas are no threat combined with the incomeing Labor goverment IR reform will return workers rights ALL who work not just union members.
Reform may however threaten the more radical, and I not unlike, middle Australia am not threatened by this.
In time Bill Shorten may lead Australia, if so he will do so in the great open honest style that threatens some on the left.
How very funny, faulty towerslike, in fact, it is that this thread proves its authors point so well.
Come what may this child amung many who once thought of a red reverlution [please forgive ] knows Australians do not think in terms of class on election day but vote for trustworthy goverment.
And no attempt at taunting anyone, its my truely held view some in the left of my party not all, and union movement are as big a threat to workers rights and non conservative voters as John Howard
regards
Posted by Belly, Monday, 15 May 2006 11:09:59 AM
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Mad as a hatter.
Posted by hedgehog, Monday, 15 May 2006 11:30:06 AM
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The only thing worse then needing unions is not having them at all, only a fool would disagree with that.
Posted by Sly, Monday, 15 May 2006 12:12:51 PM
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Belly,
I am a 50 year old man of almost unlimited patience, however you have worn me down. If you are unable to see that the ALP has lost the last 3 federal elections because they do not present policies that middle and low income Australia have approved of, due to to hijacking of the ALP by your Australia's Weakest Union, and others of the "elitist" right wing, the I give up. If you can't recognise reality, then those of us here, Scout, hedgehog, Sly and myself, are simply wasting our time. The AWU brainwash has been so successful in your case you can't see the forest for the trees mate. Yes I love working people of low and middle incomes, the trouble starts when workers on $100,000 p.a. begin to see themselves as two bob tories.

The ALP needs to win the majority of workers, not these would be if they could be's. It is the votes of low and middle income Australia that the ALP should be trying to win, they are the overwhelming majority, it the ALP could win them, they would win an election, sadly the won't because as long as the ALP puts up millionaires and right wing AWU candidates, we will continue to lose. Whitlam's egalitarianism is the key, we won't have the key while we have loony right wing federal ALP's. Good luck mate, you really need it.
Posted by SHONGA, Monday, 15 May 2006 3:57:31 PM
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I should not be here! work calls and a 3 hour drive but Aussies love a laught!
As I take on workchoices head on
never ever give in.
Some try to tell me Australians voted to inflict John Howard on me and them because we the ALP are not socialist enought!
Other reasons include , we the voters had the wool pulled over our eyes, only those who vote as the left of left do know what they are doing.
Mate know this I am 60 years old, no one in my life has ever said other than Belly is solid, my members include as I have said over 100 who left by own request after I said no,left unions.
This days massive construction site will have more hard hats who vote conservative than for us.
Do not take it as true that only you understand the Australian voter and never confuse the greens with Labor
regards and thanks for the hours long warmth of this smile
Posted by Belly, Tuesday, 16 May 2006 5:10:32 AM
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Shonga, Hedgehog, Sly - keep up the good work - comrades!.

My PC system is not running well and have not been able to spend much time on OLO - too busy reinstalling operating system.

Which kind of brings me to my point. To repair my system, I find following the 'rules' doesn't necessarily work - I have had more success thinking laterally and following gut instinct. And I know I will sort out the mess my PC is in by this method.

ALP will never win an election by playing the same old game, by playing by the same 'rules' as Libs. Really needs some innovation and fresh blood as well as strengthening its foundation. By foundation I mean the workers; the middle, low level workers and small business people who keep this country going.

Beazley is once again wrong by his constant references to the 'middle' - proves he really doesn't know what is going on. The best thing for Labor would be for Beazley to step down. Don't think Australia is ready for female PM just yet. Rudd isn't afraid to have a go at Howard. All I have seen of Shorten is shameless self promotion.

Belly, mate, you are just offering more of the same (as Shonga as pointed out).

BTW I wasn't having a go at you for bad spelling (not everyone is good at spelling) I was having a go at you for not using Spell Check on your word processor. If you took a little time to use Word instead of directly posting here first, your posts would make a lot more sense.
Posted by Scout, Tuesday, 16 May 2006 8:33:56 AM
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Hello friends, i have a message for Belly. He is right spelling does not matter.

i cdnuolt blveiee taht I cluod aulaclty uesdnatnrd waht I was rdanieg.
The phaonmneal pweor of the hmuan mnid, aoccdrnig to a rscheearch at Cmabrigde Uinervtisy, it dseno't mtaetr in waht oerdr the ltteres in a wrod are, the olny iproamtnt tihng is taht the frsit and lsat ltteer be in the rghit pclae. The rset can be a taotl mses and you can sitll raed it whotuit a pboerlm. Tihs is bcuseae the huamn mnid deos not raed ervey lteter by istlef, but the wrod as a wlohe. Azanmig huh? Yaeh and I awlyas tghuhot slpeling was ipmorantt!
Posted by hedgehog, Tuesday, 16 May 2006 12:02:34 PM
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LOL Hedgehog

:-)
Posted by Scout, Tuesday, 16 May 2006 12:10:26 PM
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Labor will never win government by continually opposing everything the Govt does. New policies, distinctive from those of the Liberal's policies are what's needed. Also, I agree that the Roosters must go, along with Bomber, Conroy and Macklin. There needs to be total re-consideration of the Labor cause. There needs to be more emphasis placed on values by our elected Labor representatives. labor will never win either by stacking the house of Reps gallery with fervent supporters on budget reply night. Does anyone have any suggestions for good future Labor leaders?
Posted by Country Unionist, Tuesday, 16 May 2006 3:11:19 PM
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Dunart, Your firsts words written in this forum were all us people
are whingers. Small business needs less red tape and all they get is more from these Liberal arseholes. So boy go away ........send Kevin Andrews A email and tell him how happy you are.
Posted by Sly, Tuesday, 16 May 2006 3:13:35 PM
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Had a good day at work looking after workers hedgehog you are getting very personal in your insults but I understand much of your dislike comes from your union being at war with mine.
My spelling is poor see just 20 years ago I haveing left school pre teens could read but not write.
still no pc giant i just do not know much of what you blokes do, lets get this clear I stand proudly with my union and faction , and hedgehog in person you would never talk to me like that.
Labor today saw its future Bill Shorten he will indeed lead us sooner than some think.
Only Kims middle Australia can elect us not the radical left not the greens but a real majority given to Labor by real Australians, going to the state conference hedghog? buy you a beer or two.
Just look for the shirt with unions forever on the front and workers united on the back, oh Belly on the pocket
regards to all.
Posted by Belly, Tuesday, 16 May 2006 6:37:11 PM
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Belly and hedgehog, Im sorry if I misunderstood you, I think we are all on the same side the simple facts are Howard has to go as well does his puppet senate.

Then if labour gets elected they need to get there crap together
but the main point is Howard is destroying this country, he really is doing alot of damage. We have no choice but to vote for labor the greens or go a independant. Bill shorten may be alright and at least Beazley isn't screwing us at the moment.
Posted by Sly, Tuesday, 16 May 2006 9:27:10 PM
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Its not all bad however we must not slumber till interest rates and high fuel prices win it for us.
Policys must roll out now ,long before an election win we must look like winers.
Never forget we few who are sure Labor voters are not the ones we must convert, its the 3 times Howard voters who once voted for us we must bring back.
They are in fact now conservative voters and not comeing back to us with policys that they do not trust, bleet about class and workers, no need to tell a unionist for life about it, but its not enought.
Our former voters for a time are quite happy with high share prices and wages won by unions, for how long?
Labor can win this time we must never give in how many think Kim Beazley can win?
Can he bring conservative voters back to Labor?
Can we win without them?
Got to go Howard is arm in arm with Bush on tv, like the humor though, two clowns should say something funny.
Posted by Belly, Wednesday, 17 May 2006 7:07:37 AM
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Dear Belly. My last post was very supportive of you. I clearly demonstrated that an inability to spell did not constitute a handicap.
Can i guess that the State Conference you refer to is the QLD Branch ALP? I am not a resident of the home of Jo' Flo and Pauline.
I am also not aware of my Union being at war with the AWU. Who do you thing i work for?
I can confirm that we hold a healthy disdain for the AWU based upon bitter experience, but i am unaware of any 'war'.
Finnaly i would be happy to tell you to your face about the track record of your Union (as my postings have been doing).
Belly understand this- nobody is insulting you personally, it is clear you are a loyal foot soldier for the AWU. All posters are asking , is that you broaden your knowledge beyond AWU spin. For example you are not the biggest Union, follow that up and no doubt we will hear from you again.
Posted by hedgehog, Wednesday, 17 May 2006 10:28:02 AM
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I am from NSW my name is Bell hence Belly, you must know I too can talk of workplace storeys but will not.
The one thing that gets to me is you truely think I do not understand workers rights and a whole host of issues other than what my AWU tells me!
Out standingly blind, my sixty years has seen me in almost every union, at the same time mostly as the AWU, solidarity means every thing.
three times each before the last amalgamation I left my union in a huff, each time oficials in name only went to the boss and never came near me.
For sure and certain EVERY UNION has such slugs today who are unfit to serve pies at the NRL.
my union is my union, and I truely think Shorten is the best the ALP has at present.
I pamlet and am an activist 24/7 for unionism and workers rights, you would not know but I am in truth freinds with CFMEU oficials [some ] and hold no issues should stop any two unions working together, the most left of left unions are aware very deep potholes lie at all our feet and are beleave me voteing at workchoices seminars as my union is!
I am like any good unionist ready to fire up at any time and if I do here its against my will.
pamlets are not miss spelled I have that checked but not changed.
In time soon to come it will in my view be clear Labor has a real chance and if not? unions have little ,workers less.
regards
Posted by Belly, Friday, 19 May 2006 4:20:21 PM
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Labor I think understands the IR laws must be changed, but I have the gravest fears we unions will not get what we want.
Labor if it lets unions down in ofice will regret it forever, no roll back just real reform is what I expect.
But unions too, ALL unions should reform too, more services and lower fees for low income workers is a start.
New members will come as some unable to afford fees can now get union membership at affordable costs.
Recruitment of oficials could be based on skills and comitment not past service.
Getting closer to all members not just delegates would be wise.
Unemloyment, assistance to find a job works for me, more union mags more often and from closer to the workplace not remote and national only.
Again as at the start of the movement get familys involved wifes and children do wonders for the movement.
Union picknic days? why not more often? on Sundays at the local beach or football, small highly visable groups haveing fun together?
What ever the future brings do not write the union movement of it strengthens each time they try to kill us.
Now about that pamplet on workchoices, get yours out now, put one in the bosses box too.
Posted by Belly, Sunday, 21 May 2006 8:32:26 AM
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Comrades hedgehog, Scout, Sly Belly it seems as we in North Queensland say is "as mad as a Katter" in honour of our "right wing" member for Kennedy, independent, former National Party man, one of belly's right wing mate. My paience is running out I don't tolerate fools easily. Why is it the people with the least knowledge, are the loudest, and the longest on subjects they have a contorted view on.
If belly can't see that the LABOR has lost the last 3 elections because his right wing mates like silly billy have pushed the ALP so far to the right it is now indisguishable to most workers from the Liberal Party, then he is beyond help. We can all rattle on forever with nonsense, however those of us you present logic, substance and intellegence to the discussion, are viewed by this fool as left wing commies, much as the Liberal Party would label us, I say let him talk to himself, he is the only one he can convince. By the way I have no need for a brother, brothers argue and disagree on all sorts of subjects, give me a comrade any day!
Posted by SHONGA, Monday, 22 May 2006 5:16:48 PM
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Tao, you are spot on with your last post #4552, corporations are damaging mankind. Quick change of subject how many trees has mankind chopped down? This is the main cause of global warming,etc. I will in the future plant a large scale tree farm, thats what im talkin about.
The human race is in big trouble and the people need real leaders.

This is very deep stuff. Now back to unions, there must be a place for unions in society and work choices ruins that and the workplace in general.

Shonga, hedgehog,I would bet you are not a Howard voters however most do not confess they are or were. Howard voters in this forum show yourself and explain why. Come on people I voted greens last election because i know were there preferences go and will be voting for labor next election directly. I look forward to your replys.
Posted by Sly, Monday, 22 May 2006 10:50:32 PM
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Sly,
As I mentioned I am and have been an ALP member for decades, however I will not vote Labor in any election unless they choose a candidate that is other than right wing. I will vote as follows, Green, C.E.C, whoever, ALP, Liberal, Independent. I see no reason to reward the ALP for standing candidates who could quite easily stand for the Liberal/National parties, and as such will not reward a party of conservatives.

My politics are progressive, for example instead of National Competition Policy, I would support a National Excellence and Efficiency Policy, a National Transport Policy etc. The coalition and the conservative ALP don't have enough people who can think outside the square, I am also a conservationist, a radical, a progressive thinker, if that is a crime, I am guilty as charged your honour.
Posted by SHONGA, Tuesday, 23 May 2006 9:03:11 AM
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Hey Sly I'm with Shonga on this. Haven't voted Lib since I was 18 and didn't know any better (more years ago than I care to say).

If Labor continues as it has for the past 10 years and again fails to offer a real alternative to Libs, then I will vote Greens, again.

However, for the next Fed election, I would prefer the Libs to win. Why? Because the sh*t is going to hit the fan and I would rather it happen when the Libs are still in power and have to take responsibility for their anti-human pro-big business policies.

Cheers, comrades!
Posted by Scout, Tuesday, 23 May 2006 9:49:56 AM
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shonga and scott i fully agree with you both but this coalition has to go, Sooner the better and the ALP needs to wake up to themselves
which they are slowly doing. cheers
Posted by Sly, Tuesday, 23 May 2006 10:09:38 AM
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SHONGA think on this while denagrating me, you claim voters voted conservative because Labor is right wing?
Do not try to say that is not what you are saying! you are not my brother I have a few all could think that out better.
We lost elections the left also claim because voters got conned or did not think right.
Why waste my time?right wing Labor is and has been our only path to power for years.
Labor will return to goverment in the next two elections, IT could be 2007 but we seem stricken by fear to remove Kim Beazley and put Bill Shorten in, in your view another landslide to Howard.
Care to bet?care to tell me who amung the left we should put in charge?
Debate me mate! if you intend to insult me and play verbal tennis may I advise to you put some strings in your racket?
Posted by Belly, Tuesday, 23 May 2006 4:24:44 PM
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Belly , seen as you nominate a bloke not even in Parliament i will do the same. Greg Combet. Happy to debate the relative bona fides of the two.
Posted by hedgehog, Tuesday, 23 May 2006 5:33:10 PM
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Belly,
Mate you are becoming incomrehencible, if this is what your represetation is like for your members, all I can say is God help them. I understand you are a good and kindhearted bloke, but please don't insult our intellegence with your vomit, if you remain ignorant to reality, that's fine with me, however reality is reality, and you are nowhere near it mate, honestly, with regards to politics you don't know a pineapple from a banana, I really feel embarresed for you, please give it away while you're behind.
Posted by SHONGA, Tuesday, 23 May 2006 7:33:14 PM
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SHONGA you must understand your views mean nothing to me I have been able to put my views of you away and it will stay that way.
Hedghog, yes he would be first pick! yes before Bill but he said no! often and in person.
Do you agree many vote without a grain of knowledge about politics?[SHONGA you vote donnt you?]
And those may vote for Bill after all 9% now want him in parlement and leading what is it 32% want Gillard? would you agree under our system she can never lead? so 32% want some one who can not have the job.
Some say we should not have a union leader, Bob Hawk? hardly a failure surely.
My wants are different than yours my path to fairness at work, an end to kids in ofshore prison , saying sorry but get of your bottom and help us help you is Labor right, tell me who from that group would you pick?
And Kim do you truely feel ok about putting workers rights on his head come the election? can you think he will win?
And my list is long often shared by the left after all some great things come from all sides only Labor in power answers my prayers Howard is my nightmare.
With every inch of my being I KNOW Labor will not under any flag give me or you all we want but it must give us an election victory that comes only from a majority vote.
SHONGA end your personal insults this trade union oficial never takes a backward step but your path leads needlessly away from debate.
Posted by Belly, Wednesday, 24 May 2006 6:10:44 PM
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Belly, Howard is a nightmare that is for sure.
Posted by Sly, Wednesday, 24 May 2006 6:24:41 PM
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Belly,
As I have stated many times, you are in my humble opinion a good egg, in a bad basket, the fact that you are unable to spell Hawke, Labor's most successful PM does not deter me from that opinion. I will repeat for you "You are are bloody good bloke" it is sad that you will settle for second best, i.e. a right wing Labor Government, which is really only a duplication of the right wing Howard government, only at a slower pace. Who gave us E.B.A's? right wing Keating!

I respect your right to differ in opinion from me Belly, the difference between us is, I will fight until my last drop of blood for you to retain that opinion, whereas the right only care about the well to do, which by the way is not the ordinary Australian on a median income of $27,700 p.a. As a union official, well a pretend union anyway, you would be on more than that, which in your particular case I don't begrudge you, as you do fight for your members. If only you could experience being employed by a "real" union, I am sure it would open a whole new world for you.

In conclusion mate, I will vote as I have stated, because I don't reward failure, and the ALP have failed to connect with low and middle income Australia, which is why we have been in oppisition for a decade. If and when the federal/state ALP gets serious about working people, I will again allocate my first preference to them, at the moment they represent a second string Howard Government.
Posted by SHONGA, Wednesday, 24 May 2006 9:06:34 PM
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Seems some of my posts are being deleted my union is as good as any, its members can read and write and make personal choices.
Workchoices is the enemy of all who work, no other path exists to remove workchoices other than a Labor goverment.
No other path to a Labor goverment exists than one that brings votes from a majority of voters.
Labor will take on workchoices or is unfit to be in the house.
My income is better than that you quote but not as high as you think, my personal spending on a news letter is a third of my income that is a workers news letter I pay for weekly, those who read it ask for it if its not about.
Posted by Belly, Thursday, 25 May 2006 5:25:04 PM
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Howard and his party are puppets to big business and there aim is to lower pay rates and sell of all government assets, what a bunch
of. Now they want to sell our water. What a weak country we have become, I say there should be more referendums with important issues.
Posted by Sly, Thursday, 25 May 2006 5:42:55 PM
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Can I ask one question? how many know, understand just what workchoices is?
How a firm just got away with removeing overtime and sick leave, meal breaks and so much more for a pay rise, of 2 cents an hour!
That on one civil construction site this union oficial must ring and request a visit, fax a request turn up at the ofice and be told to go into a back room and wait, see a forman go to lunch room and ask anyone want to see the union?
See him return and say no one wants to come.
Leave the site stand around the corner and take 5 phone calls saying we want to see you but they are on our back.
Well you can beat this!my newsletter arives weekly at one address and EVERY WORKER on that site ALL unions reads it.
Why the fear John Howard? why no action on $50 a month wages but laws like this?
Why can union dues not be on payroll but health insurance can? why union dues no longer tax deductable but busness council of Australia fees are?
Why builders industry group free to wander sites but not workers groups?
why AIG tax free and free to comment but not unions?
John Howard do you think Labor will never win again? that history will not judge you?
Workers United Will NEVER be defeated John.
Posted by Belly, Friday, 26 May 2006 8:54:06 AM
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I fear for the future of unions, most must do surely?I fear for the future of All who work in Australia, surely most do?
Workchoices must be taken on, every single day, and in every way, includeing the best team Labor can field campaigning now.
Unions must take on workchoices in the same way, every word the same.
My battle plan? 3 layer fees, now, suporter yes we have many pay a fee just to be part members no service given about $25 a year, low income ,half full fees and full service[ full fees are about $415 a year.
Low income workers are unable to spend that full fee price on Christmas for the kids, unions could get thousands of new members.
All unions to recruit only the commited and best skilled future oficials.
A single ALL UNIONS insurance sceme for total funeral benefits of ALL members.
An all unions National insurance sceme to asist famillys of union members in trouble , say health ext instead of hard hat collections and raffles, set amounts.
A national levee of say $1 per week per member every week to fund the defeat of workchoices.
Other ideas?
Posted by Belly, Sunday, 28 May 2006 9:01:18 AM
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Belly, there I was thinking I was on my own trying to knock some sense into you over there http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=4452 . Here is some TRUTH about how the unions united the workers during the waterfront dispute:

“As part of its negotiating tactics, the MUA applied to the IRC for "protected strike action," allowed in bargaining periods under the Howard government's Workplace Relations Act. By limiting stoppages to single facilities and giving the required notice of intention to strike under the act, the union ensured the actions had minimal effect on Patrick's operations.

When 300 workers at Sydney's Port Botany went on strike for 48 hours on March 11, for example, the company was able to divert two ships to the P&O container operation at Port Botany and two ships to its own terminal at Darling Harbour, where they were worked by MUA members…..

…..Such "protected strike action" was designed to wear down the resistance of waterfront workers and head off possible national strike action.

…. the ACTU said unions would not allow industrial action to defend waterside workers. ACTU President Jennie George gave the excuse that the Workplace Relations Act contains tough legal sanctions against solidarity action. Unions were not going to "commit a kamikaze act," she stated.

The MUA also used this legislation as a pretext for calling off industrial action by its members. But the act would not exist except for the collaboration of the union bureaucracy. In 1996, after 5,000 workers stormed Parliament House in Canberra, George and other ACTU officials worked closely with Cheryl Kernot …..now a Labor Party figurehead, to ensure passage of the legislation.

Kernot and the ACTU leaders were intimately involved, with Reith, in drafting the final version of the act, and specifically those sections OUTLAWING SOLIDARITY ACTION (so-called secondary boycotts) …” http://www.wsws.org/workers/1998/apr1998/actu-a9.shtml

Union “unity” defeated the workers (before Workchoices).

The unions and the ALP are a dead end which cannot be revived or reformed. The sooner workers recognize the fact, the better off we’ll all be.
Posted by tao, Sunday, 28 May 2006 1:28:51 PM
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I while from another faction of the union movement got together with a group of country workers and marched down the main street giveing up a Saturdayfor that and the meeting.
Gave $50 per week to them ,my union drafted members who manned the picket lines and cooked food for all on the line we bought that food.
Your strange view is that Labor and unions betray workers?
All my life I have watched the very left and understood they are as much my enemy as the very right.
That view is shared by most Australians one great and forever honored union from Poland, solidarity understood the threat leftist policys pose to freedom.
Reality has its part to play and my home is in that real world.
Posted by Belly, Sunday, 28 May 2006 5:14:36 PM
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Belly the unions make laws with the bosses against solidarity action. The ALP sent in the military to break up the pilots strikes. The military! If you don't believe me, check it out.

Face reality Belly, and stop fostering the illusion in workers that the ALP will save them. You are paving the way for them to be crushed. It is that serious. Hopes and wishes are not going to cut it.

Wake up.
Posted by tao, Sunday, 28 May 2006 6:01:56 PM
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tao,
Belly has been brainwashed by the Australia's Weakest Union's crap, he thinks Bill Shorten is the second coming of Christ, he is unable to see Shorten for who and what he really is. He has the perception that his small area is typical of the rest of the union, which of course it is not. While the awu controls the ALP nothing will change for working families, you are wasting your time trying to bring Belly back to Earth from Zircon.
Posted by SHONGA, Sunday, 28 May 2006 7:18:19 PM
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Tao and shonga, You scabs should wake up to yourselves, you have been brainwashed by Howard. You heard about that disabled man in a wheelchair who could not speak, walk or even hold his head up was being forced to work for the dole or do a course or lose some payment.

Now he will go into a home because his old parents were at financial breaking point. It happened last week. Read it sunday mail Qld. This is the proud Government who rushed though the "welfare to work bill" which is why the above happened, and well their at it rammed though the workchoices bill.

That's right after we got told Howard wants to sell telstra.
You may not be aware that all debates on these bills were gagged.

Tao, shonga what about AWB. 300 million in bribes and the Government refuse to investigate themselves. That'sright, now they want to sell offsnowy hydro as well.
This Government is also doing nothing positive for the environment.

The workchoices bill was rushed and so badly written that no High court judge could put there name on it. The judges know that it is most likely against the constitution and the corporations power was never to be meant for such purposes.
This "work choices bill" has already began to lower wages as we saw
with the spotlight employees last week. Over $4000 lost per year because they lost overtime rates and conditions. You both have the hide to run down the ALP after what I just informed you about this current Australian government.
Posted by Sly, Sunday, 28 May 2006 10:47:21 PM
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continued,

The only people who would bother to defend the work choices and welfare to work bills would be coalition senators who are afraid and embarrassed about their actions. These men and women of honor who were begged by the churches not to pass these bills. They basically told the church to mind their own business. I don'tknow Bill Shorten do you both, I didn't think so, and yet you judge this man badly and for no reason. If you did not know about the above facts, fair enough. But if you did know, and I think you did, then you both lack morals and are weak of character and basically are grubby people.
Posted by Sly, Sunday, 28 May 2006 10:48:15 PM
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The author started this thread with a well put together reason why Labor should show Australia a better way.
In his first post SHONGA said Labor does not deserve to govern! then along with Tao a continueing asult on Labor and the union movement continues.
Can you see the task ahead for Labor?Workchoices a purely evil act with the duel purposes of distroying unionism and undermineing Labors financial stability has frends.
Within the non conservative voters you find Howard has frends! other outcomes of workchoices lower liveing standards of all who work, yet the unrealistic and childlike view that dead and buryed socialism is the answer?
The better way Labor will one day show Australia is New Labor, long term goverment Labor, we benefit from actions of Keiting and Hawke yet some say they betrayed us?
Surely gentlemen you are not waiting for socialism to undo workchoices?
Australias Weakest Union? note I will not tell of the threats and shamefull events I have witnessed at work, but men of good will know failing to act radicaly is no sign of weakness, my members may judge me.
The Australian Labor Party has no need of those so willing to denie the party and the union movement to try to overcome me.
I will never turn on my party, my union or my class, if that makes me weak then it also makes me proud.
Workchoices is the enemy of all who work and its frends are my enemy always.
Posted by Belly, Monday, 29 May 2006 9:52:32 AM
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Sly,Belly,tao,
I am an ALP member and have been for 30 years, I am a unionist, who believes very much in unionism. For decades I have seen unionism and my Great Party undermined by the awu, and awu faction right wing politicians, to the extent the public believe the ALP has sold out to these right wing conservative forces. Until the ALP either gains membership of centrist or leftist people to balance out the destructive image that the right wing display, we will continue to be the largest pressure group in Australia.

The awu are a "clayton's" union, which are not really affected by "workchoice" legislation, it affects real unions, the C.F.M.E.U. B.L.F. A.S.U etc. Unions who really represent their members. I would suggest to those opposed to me to check out the politicians of the "shadow ministery" see how many you can find who have had a working class background? For example Wayne Swan was a Uni lecturer, Kim Carr at least had a 10 year stint as a tech teacher. The point is if you haven't lived the life, you cannot possibly know how this and other legislation affects ordinary families. When my party makes it's way back to the centre of politics, instead of following Howard further to the right, I will again vote for them. I do not believe in rewarding people not deserving of reward.
Posted by SHONGA, Monday, 29 May 2006 10:37:07 AM
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Shonga

I agree with you 100% mate.
Posted by Scout, Monday, 29 May 2006 10:58:48 AM
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This weekends Australian Magazine article on Shorten told us what we all need to know.
As per previous posts by myself it confirms the bleeding obvious.
Shorten is the Bosses reserve Goalkeeper.
In the terrible event of the Australian electorate voting in the Labor Party, Billy is there to protect thier intrests.
Raised and nourished over many years and strategically placed in the AWU.
Billy at 38 years of age has achieved NOTHING.
Yet we see the press seriously suggesting he is PM material.
Poor punters.
Posted by hedgehog, Monday, 29 May 2006 11:04:52 AM
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Sly,

I agree with you completely that the government is no good. What I disagree with you about is that the Unions and the ALP will ever ever ever be able to, or even desire to, substantially improve the situation for workers, or the environment. This is because their entire platform is based on the impossible task of maintaining or improving workers’ conditions while ensuring that business maintains or increases profits. Rest your mind on that pivotal point for a while.

Ask yourself how business makes profit? – by minimizing production costs. What is the result of improved workers conditions? – increased production costs. There is an irreconcilable conflict there and it doesn’t matter which party is in government. As long as they support the profit system they will never be able to resolve the contradiction. Even if workers are able to improve their conditions through the ALP and the unions (as they have done in the past, but only through an implicit threat to the entire profit system), business will seek to erode them as we see happening today under either the Coalition, or the ALP (the Accord). Any “balance” as you so put it is temporary.

The unions and the ALP lie to the workers and offer them false hope of improving their conditions, while all the time reinforcing the belief that others are entitled to profit from their labour. When unions claim that they are still useful, they are not appealing to workers, they are appealing to big business and attempting to show that they can contain the workers within the capitalist system. And then they run around behind workers backs and shaft them. And I mean all unions, not just the AWU.

The unions and the ALP cannot be revived or reformed because they are a tool of the capitalists to contain the workers, and have been since Federation. The only interest they have in workers is getting their votes, and their union dues.

The sooner workers understand this, the better.
Posted by tao, Monday, 29 May 2006 7:30:17 PM
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Hedghhog you must have a headache! me on one side tao on the other yet I think you and I share some values.
The 2 messages in 24 hours will get me but here it is, I would never agree that Labors right is true right ,its nothing like it, if it was we may be in the lodge not Howard.
And in my honestly held view ALL UNIONS have grubbs who betray workers/ members/ the movement.
Now final word on Bill Shorten like it or not in some roll he will serve Australia and Labor well, but replace him with any true canedate from the faction that selects Labor leaders and you will only have contempt for that new leader.
I in no way hold your views against you would as I said man your picket line for you mate I HAVE DONE IT!taken the bucket around and filled it then delivered it ,haveing on my first visit out of my pocket and my fellow trade unionists [AWU] bought food/petrol for generator and took your delegate to my meeting to fill that bucket.
You devalue the true frendship I have with 3 CFMEU oficials, and the 90 to 100 members who asked not poached to come to me from that union.
Or that $1.000 from my pucket that I lent to some from that union.
PTO
Posted by Belly, Monday, 29 May 2006 8:30:45 PM
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I have never voted for Howard but I thought he was not as bad as I had been told. After taking full control of the senate and slapping Australian people in the face I think he and his party are SCUM.

Alot of people think Howard is a good leader, I disagree and I believe in years to come Howard will be a disgrace as his new policies hit hard. Howard voters shame on you.
Posted by Sly, Tuesday, 30 May 2006 8:41:21 AM
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No Belly i suspect we share very few values.
Your absolute reticence to accept the bleeding obvious regarding Shortens' pedigree is disturbing.
As for Tao and his attack on Unions in general, i note he offers no answers.
I suspect he is one of those characters who takes the hard line where failure is obvious, achieves nothing and brags about what a radical he is.
He then attacks pragmatic people (not the AWU)who seek to achieve a small victory and live to fight another day.
We are so pure.
What did u achieve brother? Nothing! But we told them.
Posted by hedgehog, Tuesday, 30 May 2006 10:01:10 AM
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hedgehog,

Which part of what I said is not true? You yourself have criticised the unions (oh that's right, yours is different) and the ALP, which have been pragmatically paving the way to Workchoices in recent decades. That is what they have achieved.

But workers united the union way will never be defeated right? Did your union call on all unions to call a general strike in opposition to Workchoices? I doubt it. I'm sure you have all sorts of reasons for why they didn't - living to fight another day..... in the future .... a long way down the track .... after jobs have been lost .... wages have been cut ...... workers are totally demoralised .... then you'll think about calling a g-g-g-g-g-general s-s-s-s-s-s-strike.

In the meantime you'll wait for the ALP to get back in power so you can make another Accord and deregulate some more.

The solution is for workers to build their own independent party based on socialist principles, which completely and unconditionally opposes the profit system. It might not be "pragmatic" but it is certainly not selling out workers.

mmm....I seem to recall the ALP once had socialist ideas ......mmmm .......that was when it was actually improving workers conditions ...mmmmmm... now it has dropped any pretence of socialism workers conditions are going backwards ..... mmmm...... I wonder why that is? That's right, they figured out capitalism couldn't be gradually reformed or ameliorated, so instead of biting the bullet and calling the workers to revolution, they sold out. Leaving workers to bite the bullet of capitalism.
Posted by tao, Tuesday, 30 May 2006 8:00:48 PM
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Tao, come the Revolution. You are a bit like a green promising to end Global warming. The Green can promise the world, they never be called to deliver, because the chance of them being in power is Zilch. Get inside the ALP tent and start pissing Tao, we need revolutionaries like you.
Posted by hedgehog, Wednesday, 31 May 2006 9:36:31 AM
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Bring on the ALP, Howard and the coalition can look you in the eye and say with a straight face the earth is flat. Go back 15 to 20 years and no one liked Howard because they could see straight though him. Next time you have that vote in front of you, vote 1 labor or geens , democrates, independent. I would rather a sensible 15yo run this country than the current Libs and Nats.

Dear Interest rate voters, your vote is the reason for this current mob of Cowards. Howard does not control interest rates.

Work Choices is going to cost 500 million+ to implement, A real leader would of spent that on renewable energy and childcare.
Posted by Sly, Wednesday, 31 May 2006 2:39:41 PM
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hedgehog,

I'll ask it again. Which part of what I said was not true? Did your union call on other unions to call a general strike? If not, why not?

How does your union propose to defeat WorkChoices? Which union is your union by the way?

You should be able to answer these questions. Your members, and the Australian public generally, are entitled to know. Will you now become like Belly, that other trade unionist who can't answer a direct question without blithering trite union slogans?

You can dismiss me as some radical if you like, but you'd have to agree that about 75% of the workforce consider unions redundant.

If you want me or anyone else to join your union, or the ALP, you ought to be able to articulate their strategy.
Posted by tao, Wednesday, 31 May 2006 6:40:47 PM
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tao,
The Whitlam ALP had a philosophy of egaletarianism, the current ALP has a philosophy of winning government using the small target theory. Allow Howard to become unpopular and win by default. Whitlam came to government with a full set of policies ready to impliment, Beazley doesn't have policies, or if he does, he doesn't sell them very well. My former Union was the ASU, they really tried to assist me with my grievences with my employer, got me back pay I was owed, and stuck it up them on many occassions.

Employers have unions, they call them associations e.g. AMA, workers should have their own associations {unions} to lobby on their behalf, but also to defend workers when they are hardly done by. Clayton's unions like the awu, nuw are merely the employers lick men.
If ever there was cause for a national strike workchoices was it. If working people stick together we cannot be beaten, if every unionist in Australia struck, there would not be enough jails to house us.

Working people have been going backward for decades under both Labor and Liberal governments, Keating did half of Howard's job for him when he introduced enterprise bargaining, another right wing Labor policy, driven by the awu, the beginning of the end. With friends like the awu, working people don't need enemies, an incoming mass of centre and left wing radicals like myself is needed to swing the ALP back to the direction it was begun. The workers.
Posted by SHONGA, Wednesday, 31 May 2006 8:08:25 PM
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Tao, i have worked for the AMWU for 10 years and the LHMU for 10 years. A general strike? What stopped u and others all stopping on the 30th June 2005 and again on 15th Nov. 2005? You and others like you will have the oppurtunity to publicy show your disdain for these draconian laws on the 28th June 2006.
Nowhere in any of my postings have i suggested that Unions are infallible, and not guilty of errors of judgement. The union movement is still the biggest club in this country.
Part of its demise is due to its success. All the FREELOADERS (yes u Tao) thinking that thier wages and conditions fell from the sky, are in for an almighty shock. Tao, get out the cheap seats, stop slagging off like some old muppett and contribute.If u can advise of another organisation that will defend workers intrests better than the Union movement, i would appreciate it. I would join it in a flash.
Until then i will continue to piss from within the tent,you should do the same.
Posted by hedgehog, Thursday, 1 June 2006 9:54:23 AM
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tao,
hedgehog has the right idea mate, join a union and the ALP and whiteant from within, I do, and I know many others inside the ALP who are trying to change its direction, sadly we don't yet have the numbers, however a few more radicals like yourself would be more than welcome. The ALP cannot be changed from the outside, I urge you and any who share your/our thoughts to join up and change this party back to whay it should be, a party of workers for workers.
Posted by SHONGA, Thursday, 1 June 2006 5:33:44 PM
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Tao, I would have to agree with hedgehog and shonga. I hope you and others hear there message.
Posted by Sly, Thursday, 1 June 2006 6:04:48 PM
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Tao come stand with me in silence at the Ruderford riot memorial.
A miner shot dead by police and army thrown against men who stood for union values.
You may not say unions plan to betray workers and expect to be respected, you indeed have no plan, you steal the dreams others found to be nightmares generations ago.
Recycle past mistakes that killed and imprisoned workers not anything else.
Labor must be elected before it can change anything.
It will not be elected unless in the middle of the road, we can hope for higher interest rates, fuel prices or even that those workers[ a growing number] who are non unionist will at least come on board, but we must face facts elections are not won by selling policys voters refuse to buy.
Strange hedghog execpt for factionalism you will not find me different , nore do my increaseing members find fault, that is an acheavement while numbers fall mine rise.
24/7 my life is the union 24/7 its thinking you must NEVER knowingly let a member down.
But how long will it last? growing members? so many of this generation are not fighting, prapred to give up the gains of so many past heros.
I do not think you or I are able to start threads here but would like 3 new debates, how to be a union oficial, how to rebuild the union movement, and what is your view of IR reform?
By that I mean what will Labor offer? what would you want or expect?
Its time to develope Labors plan.
Posted by Belly, Thursday, 1 June 2006 7:57:25 PM
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Belly,
Must we develop Labor's plan for Industrial Relations? Your mates Bill Shorten and Bill Ludwig will continue to run Labors plan on IR, that is no plan at all, scrap Howards Workchoices, and then.... I have not heard a murmur from any Labor politician to better workers conditions, which is why we need more radicals in the party.
If we settle for the awu's version of reality, we will continue to head in a reverse direction....
Posted by SHONGA, Friday, 2 June 2006 1:37:28 PM
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hedgehog and shonga,

Why would I join an organisation whose platform and policies (what little there are of them) I fundamentally disagree with in order to whiteant them, or bring them around to my way of thinking? Should I join the Catholic Church to try and convince them of the merits of atheism, attempt to change them from the ground up with an influx of atheists, try to become the Pope? If I suggested such a thing was viable you would think me deluded. Would you join the Liberal Party to convince them of the merits of collective bargaining?

What you are suggesting is equally far-fetched. The ALP has betrayed workers over and over and over again, yet you somehow think you can just get rid of the right wing, install a few “lefts” and that will resolve everything. To use hedgehog’s own words “your absolute reticence to accept the bleeding obvious” about the ALP’s pedigree is disturbing, if not revealing. You have both cited examples of the complete disconnect between the upper echelons of the Party, and its former social base, the workers. There are complex reasons for this phenomenon which cannot be explained away by blaming it on “hi-jacking” by the AWU. The rightward turn of Social Democratic parties is a worldwide phenomenon, of which the degeneration of the ALP is just one example.

The ALP is cannot be revived or reformed for the following reasons:

* Capitalism is an economic system in which a minority of people (capitalists) own the vast majority of the land, the means of production (or the tools by which the entire human race sustains itself) and previously stored labour (capital).

* The rest (the working class) who don’t own anything are forced to sell their labour to produce goods (including the food, clothing, housing etc) by which the human race is sustained.

* Capitalists pay the lowest price for the labour and sell the goods produced by that labour back to those who produce (the working class) it for the highest price, and pocket the difference.

cont...
Posted by tao, Friday, 2 June 2006 1:57:37 PM
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...cont

* Capital (or those who own it), constantly seeking higher profits, will inevitably seek out lower costs of production – lower wages, lower taxes, lower working conditions, less social benefits like health care, education etc, lax environmental laws.

* Nation states, and workers within them, must compete with each other in order to attract capital i.e. lower the costs of production in their own countries. Production is now global, and capital is highly mobile so there is no way to stop this process. Living conditions for the majority in industrialized countries must deteriorate.

* From the above, you can see that capitalism is hostile to the interests of the vast majority of people, whose interests would be better served if the means of production were owned by the majority – the people who do the work. This would require production to be re-organised on the basis of social human need, not profit.

* The only social force which is able to carry out this task is the international working class - they are the ones that produce the wealth and they are the ones who have the collective power to re-appropriate it. To do so they must politically mobilize themselves independently of capitalist interests. Therefore they must become politically conscious, and must be told the truth (as above).

* The ALP and the unions defend the capitalist system.

* The ALP and the unions offer illusions to workers that the objective process of capitalism can be ameliorated by small “wins”. Yet any gains made by workers will eventually be eroded by the objective process of capitalism. They obscure the truth from workers.

* The ALP and the unions channel the legitimate aspirations of the working class back into the capitalist parliamentary system – tying them to the capitalist interests.

* The ALP and the unions are hostile to the interests of the working class.

And for your information, I was at the protest marches. I am well aware that my working conditions are a result of previous struggles of the working class, which the ALP has progressively undermined.
Posted by tao, Friday, 2 June 2006 1:58:40 PM
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Tao, a Marxist. What a surprise. Thanks for the Economics 101 lesson.
When u leave University and (Resistance)you might eventually join the 'struggle'.
It is called the 'struggle' because thats what it is. Day in and day out. One step forward often two back. Trying to maintain dignity and quality of life for working people.Trying to restrain the excesses of the capitalist pigs. Battling the press the courts and piss weak little cynics like you.
When u advise me of a more efficient way to participate in the struggle i will be there.
Until then stand at the mirror and check that your beret is tilted just so. Contemplate battling the rich and powerfull without denograting those that have been trying for years. U can attack the AWU and SDA because there track record is clear and odious. Until then enjoy the weekend on me.
Posted by hedgehog, Friday, 2 June 2006 4:27:52 PM
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Hedgehog, At least Tao is going to the IR marches, which is great.
You may not agree with all i have said Tao, but going to the march and taking all your friends and family along is a good thing.

I will see you all June 28......
Posted by Sly, Friday, 2 June 2006 4:58:10 PM
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Yes thats true,at least he/she is marching. Eventually workers are going to have to do more than march twice a year. I do love the French approach. Or maybe Combet should get arrested to wake the punters up.
Posted by hedgehog, Friday, 2 June 2006 5:04:21 PM
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Hedgehog, The sooner Greg Comet announces National strike action the better.
Posted by Sly, Friday, 2 June 2006 7:23:16 PM
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hedgehog,
I'm with you comrade, the French reaction to theit Industrial laws should have been repeated here. The average Aussie, must think the conditions they used to enjoy were heaven sent, no employer ever gives an employee a pay rise or an extra condition unless the union members have fought, and fought hard for it.

The stouches in the 1950's it seems were all for nought, as weak subservient employees of today sell hard won conditions for practicly no financial gain, in fear of the sack. If only they realised that if they stood together, they would win. Bosses are mainly cowards, I have stood against them and after token resistance they crumble, if the "left" thinkers were united within the ALP, instead of being splintered in the Socialist Alliance, the Green Left and so on, we would have the numbers to change the ALP to the correct direction. Politics is a numbers game, without the numbers nothing can be achieved.
Posted by SHONGA, Friday, 2 June 2006 8:10:23 PM
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National strike? are you aware that is what Howard wants?to both bankrupt the union movement and tell the public unions are out of control?
Can you not be aware of why the churches are involved in this fight?, this is as close as Australian workers will come to the French protests.
Sorry but for far too many its easyer to do nothing than to act.
Day/week of protest? its 24/7 every minute of every day, at 3 am this morning the last of 180 newsletters left my desk awaiting posting.
Letters from members children to Howard, and the press, it can be that easy to get involved.
Before this is editored and some posts are , workchoices is so unfair ,so cruel to the working poor, its warfare on them.
Vicimised by a goverment that refuses to look at the outcomes for so many already poor.
Never to own a home or shares never to retire to the coast always to be broke?
Tao! get your self into a union! and the ALP! NO ONE ELSE CARES.
And hedghog I happen to think only my faction of the party is electable, not point scoreing against you just my view held in good faith.
Now good ideas and policys will aways come from the partys left often our anchor to our reason for existing.
I am afraid for all who work in Australia, why would we create a working poor in an effort to create wealth?
Is world trade worth it if this is the needed result?
One day we trade unionists, if only we cared enought for those we exist for could be one union! all factions remain but one union.
Posted by Belly, Saturday, 3 June 2006 7:31:59 AM
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hedgehog,

I’ll ask the question again. Which part of what I have said is not true? Do you agree that capitalism is hostile to the interests of working people, and should be overthrown?

The unions will never call a national strike because they would be too scared that they won’t be able to control it - just as Bob Hawke didn’t call a national strike when Whitlam was dismissed, a national strike wasn’t called when Hawke and Keating drove through their “reforms”, a national strike wasn’t called over the waterfront dispute, or when Workchoices was in the offing. No – the unions will leave it up to individuals to take the risk – while they pocket their paychecks from the collective contributions of their members. Disgusting.

I won’t be at the march on June 28 because I will be on holiday. Even if I weren’t on holiday I probably wouldn’t be there because I have a new job in a small business and taking a day off to march would probably not go down too well.

I suspect there are a lot of people in a similar situation to me, who simply can’t take the risk, or won’t because they see that there are no benefits to be gained because the leadership – the unions and ALP – offer no real alternative perspective. They will simply call again for us to vote ALP at the next election and we will have to hope and pray that the ALP (a) gets its s#&t together and wins and (b) actually repeals the laws when it does. Both scenarios are pretty unrealistic. And for this non-result we give up a days pay and risk our jobs. The main reason I went to the last two was to hand out information for the Socialist Equality Party, not because I thought the protests would have any effect. And they didn’t - the law is in and won’t be going anywhere.

You are right when you say that eventually workers are going to have to do more than march twice a year. But what?
Posted by tao, Saturday, 3 June 2006 2:19:41 PM
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Tao what would you suggest is the alternative to capitalism?

We do benefit from trade and competition - however at present we have too many monopolies and governments supported by these soulless corporations at the expense of the people who elected them.

Unions are a way of uniting people - as individuals we have no chance at all. I agree that some unions such as the AWA worked in too well with the Hawke government - concessions made back then are the price we are paying now.

But to reject unions in totality is nonsense - what would you suggest workers do as individuals? Haven't you of united we stand divided we fall?

Nor can we eliminate captilism, but we can elect governments who will pull the reigns in on unfettered capitalism, by restablishing I.R tribunal as a truly independant organisation and setting standards that are fair and equitable to the lowest level workers.

Belly isn't quite right and neither are you.
Posted by Scout, Saturday, 3 June 2006 2:45:04 PM
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And SHONGA,

Now the truth comes out – today’s “weak and subservient employees”. How do you think they have become that way? It wouldn’t be because of the continual betrayals of the ALP and the unions would it?

In 1975 workers spontaneously walked off the job in protest at Whitlam’s dismissal. What did Bob Hawke do? – here is a quote – “ we have got to show we are not going to allow this situation to snowball and there is a real possibility it will snowball into violence ….. What has happened today could unleash forces in this country the like of which we have never seen ….it is therefore important that the Australian people respond to leadership.” Yes, the ALP and union leadership prevented the eruption of a general strike and any direct challenge to the dismissal – despite the fact that workers would have “stood” together.

And again:

Hawke and Keating brought in the military to break up the pilots strike.

And again:

In 1996, after 5,000 workers stormed Parliament House in Canberra, George and other ACTU officials worked closely with Cheryl Kernot …..now a Labor Party figurehead, to ensure passage of the legislation.

Kernot and the ACTU leaders were intimately involved, with Reith, in drafting the final version of the act, and specifically those sections OUTLAWING SOLIDARITY ACTION (so-called secondary boycotts) …” http://www.wsws.org/workers/1998/apr1998/actu-a9.shtml

The government then used these law – drafted by union officials to crush the waterfront workers.

How dare you call workers weak and subservient. If they are it is because the ALP unions have actively worked to undermine any solidarity and strength they have - and told them they should be subservient to the bosses laws - there is no other option right?

You disgust me.
Posted by tao, Saturday, 3 June 2006 2:57:52 PM
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tao,
This situation came about because of the dominance of the right wing awu faction in the ALP. This is why more radicals should join to sieze control from the right. Hawke and Keating were both right wing politicians, tao, you can't sling s@#t from the sidelines if you don't have the guts to get in and try to make a difference, if you pluck up the courage, bring as many of your like minded mates with you as you can, we fighting from the inside need all the help we can get.

If you are fair dinkum, it is the only course of action to take, remember New Labor which began in Newcastle it launched with a bang, then fizzled out. The left is split, the right are united, as Scout said united we stand, divided we fall.
Posted by SHONGA, Saturday, 3 June 2006 3:51:54 PM
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Shonga, Tao, and belly, Can you go back and read Scouts last post. Can all four of us agree with what he says? Can we also agree that ALP and some unions have made mistakes in the past. yes we can.

Tao, The ALP would never do what Howard and the Business Council of Australia are doing with the Work Choices bill. Don't insult me and say they would. Tao, Some of your points are valid as are Belly and shonga. Scout is the common ground and is absolutly spot on the money.
Posted by Sly, Saturday, 3 June 2006 5:20:38 PM
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The comments that the AWU Austrlian Workers Union alone controls the ALP is a lie.
The bizarre comment that New Labor? is that meant to be in Australia? started in Newcastle is wrong.
Within my branch of the AWU I am one of very few who are forever active in the party, and the thought that I want to or could have power is mad!
In my view we must sly understand an issue at the core of this insulting debate, the left unions vs the right ,and those two factions within the party.
It is not possible to say more clearly than this, both sides blame the other for all the partys problems.
For me and I think most Australian workers the acord with Hawke was something that cost workers a lot ,but they did it to cement the ties between the party and the workforce.
Now I regrete totally the endless fighting internaly, and want an end to it, but surely no Labor goverment is ever possible EVER if we look only to our wants not the nations.
Question to my detractors do you truely think ANY Labor goverment would not be better than Howard?
Further question if my faction is so dreadfull how come we outnumber yours on every vote?
And how come your leaders are walking our path to help Labor win this election?
Solidarity gentlemen please you can not truely think my members are lessor workers than yours?
Tao, you walk in bleek country unwanted turf for most working class people, you can not plant spuds and wonder why you are not harvesting pumkin!
Posted by Belly, Saturday, 3 June 2006 7:16:52 PM
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Belly, At the end of the day Howard must go and the ALP need to get there sh*t together, which they are starting to do.
Posted by Sly, Saturday, 3 June 2006 7:30:53 PM
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I would have liked a little more depth from you sly, a plan to unite? a new policy of some worth?
or a reason you think the ALP is getting its act together.
In fact we started to rebuild the day Latham left, and continue to move towards a centain Labor long term goverment ,if not 2007[only leadership problems can defeat us] we will govern in 2010.
And the IR policy debate [the threads intent] is our greatest task, nothing less than that.
Remembering unlike John Howard Labor will try to rule for every Australian ,we must craft a new way in IR I however will fight my own party if need be to restore unions right of entry, book inspections, and to see the last of the shamefull building industry task group and fair wages group.
Tao may wimper as much as he/she wishes but unions and Labor in power may have yet another acord, proof workers understand the ties between both.
And more importantly proof we combinded Unions/workers and Labor can offer Australia a better way.
And never forget the view all who work are working class, or even vote other than conservative is plainly wrong.
Casual Labour hire workers on civil construction have reduced the rate from near $25 to $17.15 casual by signing AWA,s and while blameing ALL UNIONS refuse to talk to any about this shamefull thing!
25% leaves unions outnumbered 3 to 1 just the simple truth.
The place for workers to unite is behind the ALP.
PS lEADERSHIP the problem is my truely held view we need a change is seen by some as only Shorten? Steve Smith if he awakens could do it well.
Posted by Belly, Sunday, 4 June 2006 8:46:46 AM
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Okay, with the exception of Tao we agree that the common ground for reinvigorating Labor is new leadership, unity and, of course, substantial alternative policies.

While I believe that Beasley should step down, if Labor were to offer the following, I would certainly consider them at the next election.

1. Independent Industrial relations Tribunal - eliminate the lawyers!

2. Choice of collective agreements or individual contracts

3. Basic conditions for work set into the constitution, which include:
a) Liveable minimum wage based on CPI.
b) Four weeks annual leave
c) Public Holidays
d) Penalty rates where work performed is in addition to agreed weekly hours - this doesn't have to apply to week ends if normal working week includes weekends, eg penalty rate could apply to Mondays & Tuesdays.
e) Safe work conditions
f) Security - employer must give reason for firing and a minimum of 2 weeks notice
g) Unions allowed on site & training permitted

4. Investment in alternative energy, eg wind, solar, tidal and consideration into Thorium etc

5. Sustainable development
a) construction of all buildings to be energy efficient
b) reduction in excessive packaging by businesses
c) public transport upgrades and development
d) Rail transport of goods upgraded and developed - less need for road transport
e) Investment in sustainable agriculture - suited to climatic conditions and market demand.
f) Protection of natural resources eg water, mining, timber

I know that there is more - this is just off the top of my head but surely this would be a good start regardless of whoever leads Labor?

I hope other posters would like to contribute to this list - who knows maybe someone in the Labor party might take some notice.
Posted by Scout, Sunday, 4 June 2006 10:46:21 AM
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On the contrary hedgehog, I can certainly criticize the ALP and the unions if I disagree with them. Moreover if I believe they are leading workers up the garden path, it is my duty to do so.

If your logic is correct, you can’t criticize the AWU unless you are member. Best you hurry up and join them.

Perhaps those who disagreed with the Nazi Party should have joined them to criticize them.

The degeneration of the ALP cannot be blamed solely on the AWU, or on the weak and subservient workers as SHONGA so disrespectfully put it. Social Democratic parties all over the world are turning into right wing parties – it is a worldwide process resulting from the impossibility of exacting concessions from capitalism as has been done in the past. The entire platform of the ALP is based on a lie, as is that of all unions.

Furthermore, considering your crude unfounded abuse of me, and SHONGA’s obvious disdain for the working class, why would anyone be inclined to join any organisation you two represent?

Why would workers join organisations which have so clearly lied to, shafted and disregarded them over decades? Why would they trust them not to do exactly the same thing as they have done in the past? Obviously not many do.

I completely defend the right of workers to organize themselves in trade unions or in any other way. What I do not defend is the union leadership who, safe in their cushy jobs paid for by their members’ collective contributions, use those positions to actively work to isolate and disorient workers – and then blame those workers for being weak and subservient.

The ALP and union leadership are lackeys for the capitalists. Workers must politically organize themselves independently of such lackeys on the basis of a socialist perspective.

And Belly: you are correct that workers are not conscious of what their interests really are i.e. to overthrow capitalism. However that is no reason for people who do understand those interests to give up on them, and become “pragmatic” capitulators to capitalism.
Posted by tao, Sunday, 4 June 2006 4:16:09 PM
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Scout, great minds think alike, i send many of your ideas/polices to our pollies mainly ALP via email. I pretty sure all your work related ideas are already in place under the previous IR laws, However the other policies are what a real leader like yourself would being doing at this point in human history.

Especially renewable energy and forestry. All houses should have water tanks and grid connected solar power thats a small step in the right direction. Beazley actually annouced a policy for solar power on school roofs about 7-8 weeks ago which is a positive start.

Tao, I will explain to you again. Unions are your FELLOW WORKERS.
NOT THE PAID OFFICIALS some of you refer to, which there are few.

Tao understand that without unions and the ALP there is NOTHING for workers, get that though your think skull. You have posted some valid concerns but i'm sorry you miss the core issue, so either please grow up or sit back and watch your income fall.
Posted by Sly, Sunday, 4 June 2006 7:28:22 PM
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Good idea Scout,

Here are some policies that would really benefit us all:

*Working week reduced to 30 hours with no loss of pay. This will create more jobs and enable workers to more fully participate in political and cultural life.
* Five weeks annual leave.
* Every working person must be guaranteed a well-paid and secure job and an income sufficient to raise a family in comfort.
* Raising of social security benefits to a living wage.
* Billions of dollars must be poured into the upgrading, expansion and staffing of public hospitals, schools, universities and child care facilities so that these services are equipped with the latest technologies and are freely available to all
* The sell-off of public housing must be halted, new high quality housing units constructed, and rents and house payments reduced so that no worker pays more than 20 percent of his or her income for shelter.
* A huge expansion in the number of apprenticeships and the availability of high-quality training and educational programs for all young people
*A progressive tax system to lower taxes on working and middle class families while raising those on the wealthy. The GST must be abolished, together with the tax loopholes and accounting gimmicks that allow most corporations to pay miniscule taxes on their profits. Direct taxes on wealth, such as estate taxes, should be restored. This is a first step towards ending the gulf between rich and poor and providing the resources for an expansion of jobs and public services.
* A vast expansion of scientific and technological research is required to deepen our understanding of the basic processes of nature and to enhance society’s ability to provide a fulfilling, healthy and safe life for all. Scientific research should be placed under the genuine democratic control of working people.

But the ALP will never implement them.
Posted by tao, Sunday, 4 June 2006 11:30:49 PM
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Scout well done! no item on your list is missplaced, while tao?
Well back to the world as it is the incomeing Labor goverment should, while researching new fuels drop by law all state and federal tax on LPG.
Subsidise state goverments so motor cars ext that change to LPG pays no state rego for 5 years.
Wealfare, no not entrench sit down money ,pay for true work, that is an hourly rate based on award for true meaningfull work.
It could be to better the comunity and must not compete with full time jobs.
Recycle every drop of used water even pipeing it inland would both use the water and let nature truely recycle it as rain.
Getting Labor elected is fighting workchoices.
No country needs cheaper fuel more than Australia unchecked our industies in the bush will die includeing tourism, lets get LPG as a stop gap and use our farming skills to make new fuels, if we compete with oil prices will drop, sand will not sell well in the western world and what else have they to sell?
Posted by Belly, Monday, 5 June 2006 7:49:40 AM
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Tao, wont be marching on the 28th.
He/She has a job.
Does not think the boss will like it.
Tao you should cease to post on this thread.
You are embarrasing yourself, with your hypocrisy.
You are an undergraduate smart arse.
You have nothing constructive to contribute.
Capatalism is not evil.
It is the unequal distrabution of wealth that is evil.
My arguement is for a fair share in the wealth created, not the overthrow of democracy and capital.
I am sure Belly would agree with this- not many of us want to wear the Beret. Enjoy your hol's Tao. Is it Cuba or Hayman Island this winter break?
Posted by hedgehog, Monday, 5 June 2006 11:06:36 AM
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Thats what I'm talkin about belly, hedgehog. Don't worry about Tao,
she will be voting labor at the next election... she just dosn't know it yet.
Posted by Sly, Monday, 5 June 2006 4:51:04 PM
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hedgehog, your true colours are showing now.

I suppose you don’t have holidays. And no, I don’t go to university. I work full time.

I suppose you will be marching, and as a union official you’ll be getting paid for it too. No worries for you about losing your job – oh that’s right, only if unions keep shedding members, or the government manages to eliminate unions from the workplace. You’ll have to go back out into the real world and do some work.

Now, lets just clarify it for all the posters here. Will the union leadership be calling a strike? Will the ALP support strike action?

The ALP and unions have known that the Government has wanted to introduce Workchoices or something similar for many years. The previous bills had been before the Senate something like 40 times (and yes it had been opposed by ALP, the Greens and the Democrats). Yet the ALP chose not to make a big deal out of it at the last election so that voters could make the choice at the ballot box. They ought to have been screaming it from the rooftops. But no, they left the voters to be surprised by the introduction of the law, and now they can’t do anything about it until they get elected. Funny about that.

“Capatalism is not evil.
It is the unequal distrabution of wealth that is evil.”

Good on you hedgehog.

Capitalism, and capitalist democracy is nothing but the structure by which the unequal distribution of wealth is maintained.

No Sly, I won’t be voting for the ALP, I’ll be voting informally.
Posted by tao, Monday, 5 June 2006 6:36:25 PM
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Tao,as is the tradition in our Union my wages will be docked on days where we ask all our membership to stop. (not that all our members will stop). A real job? What do you mean? I was a tradesman at 19, had a degree at 24, and would have been a far wealthier and healthier fellow had i spent my career working as an advocate for the otherside.The life of a Union official is not an easy one young Tao.
Your posts continue to demonstrate your non existent life experience.
Workers need friends like you,like a hole in the head.
One last thing.
Labor did not talk about Workchoices prior to the election.First thing you have got right in your posts.
However there was good reason for that.Nobody knew about it you silly,silly Marxist. On the subject of hol's. Of course i have hol's, and i like to go to nice places.However i dont go during one of the peak activities in the struggle.Where are you going,maybe we can advise you of some protest activity in the area.
Posted by hedgehog, Tuesday, 6 June 2006 9:49:19 AM
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Tao your self confedence is missplaced, the ILO has Australia up before it because workchoices breaks rules see ACTU web page worth a read.
All my life I have heard workers and ordinary people brag about voteing for Micky Mouse or informal, never once have I not questioned the ability to think of such people.
Comon ground here for most only a Labor goverment and srong union movement can help.
This weeks NSW ALP conference must be focused on unity and workchoices, unless we run hard on these issues we fail to defend working Australians.
Unlike tao I remain confedent of our victory in both arena,s.
And unlike you tao my bosses feelings about the day of action no matter what boss what job or no job would stop me marching!
And why a day of action? my life is 24/7 letter boxing and action of 100 types
Workers united will never be defeated.
Posted by Belly, Tuesday, 6 June 2006 9:50:55 AM
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Tao has stated that his/her job is recent also the IR laws would mean that s/he would be taking a risk to attend protest on 28 June, therefore I think other posters are being unfair here.

Tao rather than voting informal, please consider voting for an independent you like rather than wasting your vote.

Unrestrained capitalism returns us to a feudal system, Belly's New Labor does nothing to place regulations on an inequitable economy. New Labour in Britain is not going well for Blair right now, although the Brits have even less alternatives than Australia does.

We need some form of unity between small business, unions, the Greens, the Democrats and Labor. Apart from making people easier to sack (which is economically unviable in the long term), Howard has done nothing for small business.

I know that the Greens need to expand their policies, the Democrats still have some excellent politicians and would add some balance to Greens - maybe Labor should consider a coalition.

And may be I'm a dreamer....
Posted by Scout, Tuesday, 6 June 2006 11:49:36 AM
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I am not just a New Labor fan,yes in time maybe thats our path but elction victory must come soon.
Bit hard also on the Blair goverment, time sees all goverments begin to drop the ball, but this British goverment remains Labors true acheavement.
retchable targets is my thoughts on why Labor needs to change.
IR reform is shadowed by Howards control of the debate switching to nuclear mid stream.
We must refocus on workchoices, why has Australia got so many American CEO,s?
An iternational group has outdone even workchoices demanding union oficials put on paper who they wish to talk to and what about!
This dureing a meal time visit notice given, legal under the act!
Yank CEO!
I see a time comeing when radical action ,even leading to prison may be the only way.
Posted by Belly, Wednesday, 7 June 2006 7:35:02 AM
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Scout, All workers should attend IR marches even if they do a half day at work. I hope there is mass sackings, myself included because the High Court would be pushed in to making a decisions.

Belly, I think riots will start if this government continue this course. Now that most people are aware that all Work Choices AWAs
have lost at least one condition and some have lost all award conditions the heat is building slowly, it takes abit to piss of the Average Aussie which is a good thing until they snap.

No decent Aussie, rich or poor, young or old should miss the Anti Work Choices March. June 28th will be BIG........
Posted by Sly, Wednesday, 7 June 2006 10:58:23 AM
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Blair's New Labour, is old conservative, the ALP is so conservative now it could easily swap places with the Blair Government. Beazley talks of scrapping Workchoices legislation, that's fine, but says nothing of improveing workers conditions. The ALP has lost its way thanks to the awu right wing faction that dominates it. Politics is about numbers, the awu right wing faction has the numbers, so you can bet IR is down on the list of priorities unless they see an electoral advantage. These right wing acedemics have not done a hard day's work in their life, can't relate to anyone who has, such is the state of the oldest political party Australia has.

Unless it is recapured by working people in numbers, it will continue to be Australia's largest pressure group, because it doesn't deserve to win the votes of working people, unless the imputus changes. It's that simple.
Posted by SHONGA, Wednesday, 7 June 2006 12:26:26 PM
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Sly if you want to risk your job then that is your choice. Tao has every right to decide for him/herself what is best for her/him.

I will be able to attend the protest, however, after losing my job last year and spending much of my savings on my mortgage I cannot afford to be unemployed again, so I sympathise with Tao. Sly, you have no right telling people what they should and shouldn't do just because you disagree with Tao.

Shonga I assume you are talking about unions being supported by workers in your last post?
Posted by Scout, Wednesday, 7 June 2006 1:11:53 PM
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Scout,
I am talking working people joining the ALP and Unions who believe that the ALP is too conservative. In my case ALP State IR legislation didn't save me, the whole IR debate needs to shift to the quality of life offered to working people. I see ordinary working people on a daily basis, who appear to be one step away from a breakdown, the employer doesn't care, they just use the employee up, and get another, put the unfair workload on them till they breakdown, continue the cycle. In some ways tao is correct in wanting a 30 hour week, 5 weeks holiday, as the pace of work these days {last 30 years} in some occupations is ridiculous.

Trouble with tao's outlook is change cannot be achieved in isolation, Unions of workers are needed, as well as a "fair dinkum" workers political party, which these days does not exist. Your suggestions for policy changes were also very good, the problem is, if people like you and tao and I can figure it out, why can't the ALP, answer....they are not connected to working people, because they are too far to the right, thus are unable to know what we know. Yet we are still expected to vote ALP because they are the lesser of two evils, wouldn't be great to vote Labor because they actually represented our aspirations, instead of representing a diluted version of the Liberal Party. Who sold the Commonwealth Bank, Quantas, but now disagrees with the sale of Telstra? I disagreed with all the sales, yet the dominance of the awu right wing politicians Hawke and Keating did half of Howard's work for him. Unless more ordinary working people join the party and participate in policy construction, we may as well vote Howard back in. Labor represents a slowing of change in the same direction as Liberal.
Posted by SHONGA, Wednesday, 7 June 2006 1:48:45 PM
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Scout, whats more important risking your job or losing thousands
of dollars a year when your offered your first AWA.

This is not the time for half an effort because by sitting back
and doing nothing is not an option when there is so much you can lose.

I have studied the Work Choices bill and it is very very serious
as you know. This is not the time to be afraid. This bill effects
all jobs from blue collar to white collar and all ages. Big business
wrote this bill so big balls are needed to destroy it. Soft people will be squashed.
Posted by Sly, Wednesday, 7 June 2006 2:22:57 PM
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SHONGA I have nothing against you personaly please beleive me we could in real life be mates.
But lay of the idea that my AWU and the right faction of the ALP is the reason we are not in power.
PLEASE! its just so untrue, the ALP [and I will vote only for them] is made up of factions and self interest groups.
We as a group try to sell our product to the voters, to think they vote conservative because we are too right wing is madness.
I vote and belong to the only party that wants to reform IR,and the only party that cares ,truely cares about ordinary people.
Your posts constantly insult my faction ,my union and my views, I have trouble seeing any difference between you and a exteme right conservative.
New Labor? if thats the only way to govern yes but any Labor goverment includeing the Hawke Keiting ones you love to undermine is a better option than any conservative one.
No man should be forced to strike tao is right, no million marchers will do so this time.
Bosses have all the power but a well put together letter each week to Howards mob or the press is as good.
Solidarity ,great word if you mean it!
Posted by Belly, Thursday, 8 June 2006 12:34:23 AM
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I must stop riseing to the bait cast in front of me by people full of yesterdays ideas.
This weekend will tell me if the ALP can remove John Howard, the NSW conference of the party.
If I could I would want a plan not too far from the authors laid on the table, yes throw your stones at me but reality is its too late for roll back.
And without doupt a new way has to be Labor and the unions plan, AWA,s are indeed here to stay, but unions can do better.
Already dreadfull things have been done to workers but if Labor is again defeated?
If we present the voters with other than true balanced reform we are bound to fail.
Unions can without Howards handcuffs sell ourselves, but only an ALP goverment can unlock those.
I shudder in real fear! that this weekend may see our defeat confirmed over a year out from an election.
And if unions do not get 100% support, we will be beaten.
If leadership is not fully debated now again we can not win.
Solidarity? no party first for me, Kim has to go he truely must go, is the fate of all who work in Australia to be left to him?
Can it be he is waiting for this weekend to show us form we have not yet seen?[you can bet on it!]
Unions will come out of this stronger and I have no fear of change in fact welcome it if it brings a fair go in the workplace to members.
One weekend in 52 but after this weekend you can expect to know who will win next year and who will lead the ALP.
Posted by Belly, Thursday, 8 June 2006 3:20:13 PM
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Belly,
It is unimportant who leads the ALP in the sense that it will be someone from the right wing, in other words, just a different face, same weak policies for working people. You seem to take my critizisms personally comrade, I won't have a bad word to say about any union organiser who has his members best interests at heart as you do, rather it is the philosophy of the leadership of the awu, and the people they "install" into safe Labor seats, who share the same pathetic views concerning average, ordinary working people that I strongly object to.

Queensland had an enquiry a few years ago into corruption into the Qld Branch, the former State secretary was forced to vacate his parliamentry seat, a few of his awu faction mates had to go as well, guess who ended up as the National Assistant Secretary? And has since gone on to be an adviser to a NSW State Minister, yes correct, the same corrupt awu right wing faction former Qld politician.

Belly if anything I feel embarresed for you, being part of this organisation, without really knowing what happens at the top, I do know comrade, and its not pleasant, especially for low income working class families, I suggest you check the ALP website go through the shadow ministery and see how many of them have had a working background, you will be surprised. My point of course is if you haven't lived the life, how on Earth can you truely represent people who do?
Posted by SHONGA, Thursday, 8 June 2006 4:36:05 PM
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It is because I have lived the life that I think as I do.
Have no doupts I know hunger, how could one of 16 kids not?
I now the fear of seeing a landlord just walking down the front path, the constant moveing of home.
I know the shame of watching my union delegate father haveing spit run down his face as he handed out Labor how to votes on election day.

As a 15 year old kid, already a near 3 year veteran of the workforce I joined the AWU

Look back on my posts often miss jointed but always in my view true, sluggs always existed in every union, some still do in the AWU and every union.
Within the last 12 months I have been carpeted for saying just this about one of ours, yet I will never stop saying it!
We exist for members nothing else, nothing.
Up untill now I have not gone to print on other unions, you make it a must that I do, hidden in union ofices ALL union ofices is a wish in fact a drive to steal other unions members.
This wish ignores the 75% who are not members! all that unplowed ground we could farm!
And halo,s got left out of our kit bags!.
Once all 3 unions adressed a 400 strong mass meeting,we faced a dreadfull boss.
At meetings end as the others cars left I met 18 site delegates.
We marched into the site bosses ofice and by solidarity won tool kits for all riggers, not my members and near $500 in back pay for 116 men, not my members.
It came to pass that one of those 2 other unions was in fact doeing a gutless sad deal!and EBA! that gave away more than it should have with that grubby mob! who wanted to keep me away!
Posted by Belly, Friday, 9 June 2006 8:23:03 AM
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Belly,
When I said if you haven't lived the life, I was refering to the ALP politicians. I agree with you some branches of some unions are bloody terrible, however the awu leadership of shorten and ludwig are consistantly terrible, and most unhelpfull to working families.
Posted by SHONGA, Friday, 9 June 2006 10:14:09 AM
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SHONGA you wrote:

“Trouble-with-tao's-outlook-is-change-cannot-be-achieved-in-isolation,-Unions-of-workers-are-needed,-as-well-as-a-"fair-dinkum"-workers-political-party,-which-these-days-does-not-exist.-Your-suggestions-for-policy-changes-were-also-very-good,-the-problem-is,-if-people-like-you-and-tao-and-I-can-figure-it-out,-why-can't-the-ALP,-answer....they-are-not-connected-to-working-people,-because-they-are-too-far-to-the-right,-thus-are-unable-to-know-what-we-know.-Yet-we-are-still-expected-to-vote-ALP-because-they-are-the-lesser-of-two-evils,-wouldn't-be-great-to-vote-Labor-because-they-actually-represented-our-aspirations,-instead-of-representing-a-diluted-version-of-the-Liberal-Party.”

The thing is that the ALP doesn’t represent our aspirations.

If you accept the capitalist framework, the inevitable logic of which is to minimize production costs in order to maximize profits, you must accept everything that flows from it. You say wages must increase, they say if wages increase they can’t be profitable so will just shut down or move off shore. You say the workplace should be safer, they say they can’t afford to implement safety measures so will shut down or move off shore. The ALP accepts the underlying ideology. It must therefore accept that working conditions must be slashed to ensure that we are “competitive” and “productive”. That is why the ALP can’t “figure it out”.

It is not enough to blame it on right wing factions in the Party, because the entire party accepts that workers can be exploited. Any difference between them is based on the degree of exploitation they believe is acceptable. The degeneration of Social Democratic parties is a world-wide phenomenon, why is that?

You say a “fair dinkum” workers political party is needed. You are right. But the aspirations of working people can only be realised by reorganizing society and production on the basis of social need, not profit. As long as workers accede to the ruling ideology that we all exist to make profit for the minority, and that profit is the most important thing, the drive for profit will inevitably result in the erosion of our conditions. There is no way around it.

Workers need to build their own party whose political line is solely based on workers interests, not on ameliorating the excesses of capitalism. They can’t “take back” the ALP because it is part of, and agrees with, the system which exploits them.

Workers do the work – they produce the wealth – they are entitled to decide what is done with it - and they are entitled to all of the benefits of it. Any party which doesn’t fight for that isn’t a workers party.
Posted by tao, Friday, 9 June 2006 9:44:28 PM
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tao,
How about you say something I disagree with and I'll let you know. The main problem is that a great proportion of working people are indeed "weak and submissive" and fear losing what they have worked so hard to achieve, i.e. a home {roof over their head} a car TV microwave, indeed the workers are their own worst enemies, if only they realised it. This capitalist society has managed to break "mateship" down, if true old fashioned mateship still existed the senerio would be easy. The union cry "the workers united will never be defeated" is true, the difficult part is uniting them. If every union member in Australia struck on the 28th of this month, and was fined $30,000 each for doing so, and refused to pay the fine, where is the prison space to lock us up? Answer - doesn't exist, in other words it's a bluff, that the workforce allows itself to be intimitated by.

The Left wing of the Labor Party is dominated by the right, which is why ALP policy is as it is, and exactly why my wish is for more lefties to join and outnumber them, the conservative right has conspired to lower working conditions, whereas the radical left with lack of numbers can only hope to influence the degree of rape. With more numbers of radicals we could change ALP policy to a socialist perspective, rewarding workers for their efforts. South America is largely socialist now, there is no reason why we could not join them.
Posted by SHONGA, Saturday, 10 June 2006 11:00:16 AM
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Alot of workers have been brainwashed and they thought Howard would look after them. Oh what a mistake that was. Many workers are too weak these days and thats exactly what this government has been waiting for. Put you asleep and then stab you in the back.....
Posted by Sly, Saturday, 10 June 2006 11:43:56 AM
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Just back from the NSW ALP state conference and some things are clear.
I have been wrong!
Kim Beazley ,nice bloke that he has always been is about to become prime minister of Australia.
And again I was wrong , AWA,S in my mind always evil but also in my mind the non Labor voters compforter, are to go!, and its Kims better policy that makes that possible.
Kim Beazley IS THE LABOUR LEADER , no other will lead the party.
And he spoke of true policys and that is the only way we will defeat workchoices.
An ALP goverment.
I pledge my 100% suport to see him become prime minister and will never again undermine his leadership.
Nore should anyone who both wants an end to workchoices and to see a good man elected to lead Australia, instead of John Howard.
After highlighting the EVILS of workchoices, includeing contracts without pay rises for FIVE YEARS! [ will fuel rent interest rates not rise in that time?]
Kim Beazley set out his policys to not just fix IR but to fix Australia.
Both on the stage and as he left a cry went up that will circle Australia.
The chant of Beazley! Beazley! Beazley! is the new its time!,its the cry for justice Australia has waited for.
Posted by Belly, Monday, 12 June 2006 4:48:48 AM
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As a trade unionist and working class Australian you will find I will never run away from a fight for workers rights.
So SHONGA and Tao, this is for you, in my view you are of no help to those you say you want to help.
SHONGA the left of my party lost every vote in Sydney, every vote.
The pretentous view that the party is run from Queensland by the AWU is clearly wrong.
NSW AWU is proud and strong and a bloke sitting in a Sydney ofice is clearly in comand.
The AWU is no evil commander, but it is a vital part of the rudder that keeps the ALP within coee of goverment ofice.
The left has its part to play but in a democracy majority rule, SHONGA do not undermine the only chance, yes only chance Australian workers have.
Contracts signed under workchoices for FIVE YEARS! WITHOUT PAY RISES!
demand unity.
Tao, your thoughts if converted into a party would fail to fill a phone box.
No one has the right to impose radical views on us as the will of the workers.
I exist as a proud AWU trade union oficial to serve the workers, and I am yet to find one who can not think for him/her self!
Beazley! Beazley! Beazley!
Workers united can NEVER be defeated.
Posted by Belly, Monday, 12 June 2006 5:08:05 AM
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Good on you Belly,
You have come away from conference all pumped up with hype, nothing has changed mate, Beazley is not consistently strong enough to become Prime Minister, he has proved it by losing 2 elections, and will lead us to yet another defeat next year, because the NSW Branch is stacked with the lunatic right is testiment to the cause/reason the ALP have been in the federal political wilderness for a decade, and if you believe anything else you are deluding yourself mate.

Did Beazley say anything about improving workers lifestyles apart from removing Workchoices to return us to the status quo, I bet he didn't. Typical right wing diatribe meaningless rubbish, if you want to fall for it mate, go ahead it's a free country, but don't expect the rest of us to be dancing in the streets just because Beazley gave the performance of his life, he had to, or he would have been out on his political ear, one swallow a summer doesn't make my friend.

I have met Beazley on many occasions and have asked him questions regarding the "working poor" his response was "they don't exist" he is a pretender, who can occasionally put on a good show, however he has and always will lack substance, as far as ordinary low income working families are concerned, do you know the median wage in Australia is approx $27,700 per annum, which includes lots of low income families who haven't been impressed by Beazley for the last 10 years, if you don't I do, Labor will never win with Beazley.
Posted by SHONGA, Monday, 12 June 2006 5:44:24 AM
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Well Beazley has announced that he will abolish AWA's. He thinks he is jumping on a vote winning bandwagon.

Point is - individual contracts actually do suit SOME people.

Also his back to the future tack will alienate business from Labor - again.

We need compromise.

As previously stated

1. Return right of collective agreements.

2. Allow Union representation/bargaining/training.

3. Where employer and employee both agree individual contracts can be an option.

4. Set in concrete over time allowances.

We can't turn back the clock but we can take the best from all possible IR reforms.
Posted by Scout, Monday, 12 June 2006 9:40:19 AM
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Scout,
Exactly AWA's are here to stay, all that can be done with AWA's is to ensure that they contain an award standard that can't be intimidated out of the employee, and made an offence to force an AWA on to anyone, offer yes, force no. The AIRC should have the power to ratify all such agreements. The crazy thing here is that employers have always had the power to pay "above award" anyway. The unions should recieve a contribution from every employee regardless of whether or not that particular employee is a union member, as the union is the body that has continually fought to have the awards upgraded, on which the AWA is based upon.

Beazley has been a dud, is a dud, and will remain a dud until Labor is again defeated at the next election for the third time, the old "three strikes, your out" principle.
Posted by SHONGA, Monday, 12 June 2006 12:09:45 PM
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It's good AWAs will go but there will always be a need for some sort of contract especially for management. I would rather have Kim Beazley as prime minister than this current evil bunch of self serving useless leaders. Take that to the bank.
Posted by Sly, Monday, 12 June 2006 5:18:37 PM
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Shonga,

I prefer the following:

"In short, the Communists everywhere support every revolutionary movement against the existing social and political order of things.

In all these movements, they bring to the front, as the leading question in each, the property question, no matter what its degree of development at the time.

Finally, they labour everywhere for the union and agreement of the democratic parties of all countries.

The Communists disdain to conceal their views and aims. They openly declare that their ends can be attained only by the forcible overthrow of all existing social conditions. Let the ruling classes tremble at a Communistic revolution. The proletarians have nothing to lose but their chains. They have a world to win.

Working Men of All Countries, Unite! "

From the Communist Manifesto.

A much more uplifting and directed battle cry.

I particularly like the bit about the ruling classes trembling.
Posted by tao, Monday, 12 June 2006 7:17:19 PM
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Shonga TAO you give this trade unionist and Labor member JOY!
The truth is all my life I have known we the non conservatives have a big team who from within work against us.
While the only way to remove workcjhoices is with a Labor goverment NOW you pelt rotten fruit at our hopes.
In taos case he steals the dreams and plans of my childhood, in fact the failed dreams of my grand parents childhood.
The nightmare that was comunism, that enslaved and murdered workers in Starlins case by the millions.
Tao read history! the sins against humanity that comunism was fell party as a result of a union!
Soidarity in Poland , an evil system no better than evil.
SHONGA can you truely think undermineing the ALP helps workers?
Your hatred of the AWU and constant slurs enrich me! at conference, in the very real world, the left get more frantic each debate, and get voted down each time!
So you want more leftists in the party? more in conference? more votes? how? and SHONGA WHY?
Australian workers do not share your dream, never will surely you see the vote conservative? often in fear we all think like you!
Feel no sorrow for me mate I a warm and comfortable in the middle of the road with the bigest part of the crowd.
Beazley! Beazley!~ Beazley!
workers united will never be defeated!
Posted by Belly, Tuesday, 13 June 2006 6:13:12 AM
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Tao, get back to work and wait for the revolution. Mind you turn up on the 26th lest you upset your boss.
Posted by hedgehog, Tuesday, 13 June 2006 9:39:06 AM
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Shonga

I agree with your post except for compulsory union fees. I acknowledge that non-union workers benefit from gains made by unions, however freedom of choice is an entitlement of all.

Notice how Beazley is not making any proposals for what he would put in place of AWA's. What is the rest of the Labor party doing? Why haven't we heard any substantial policy for workplace RE-reform? Howard is again circling in for the kill.

I will be attending the 28th June protest - is there anyone else who will be at the Melbourne protest?
Posted by Scout, Tuesday, 13 June 2006 10:31:25 AM
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Scout, I think there will be about 200,000 people that will join you on june 28 in Melbourne. I will be going to the march in Brisbane. There is no defence of AWAs under work choices, of the 6000+ AWAs in place since workchoices, 100% have lost one or more condition.

Howard and Peter Hendy are spewing about Beazley's remarks and i think it is funny that Howard says Beazley was bullied by the unions.
It is plain to see Howard was bullied by big business to create work choices. This point should be made by the ALP.
Posted by Sly, Tuesday, 13 June 2006 10:51:50 AM
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Sly

There are many points that can be made by ALP - but its not happening.

Apart from IR reform there are:

>>Anti-terrorism laws - curtailing freedom of speech, jail without charge.
>>Return to 'Pacific Solution' detainment of children indefintely, again.
>>Nuclear debate as opposed to energy needs for all Australians and sustainable environmental development.
>>Privatising essential resources - the Snowy was saved, other resources including water are still up for grabs.
>>Cost of education, health.
>>Third world conditions for our indigenous people.
>>Zero investment in infrastructure - for example, roads funding used to black mail state governments.
and lets not forget kowtowing to George W.
Posted by Scout, Tuesday, 13 June 2006 12:30:59 PM
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Scout, Sly,
I will be marching on the 28th, and yes Scout a good point re compulory contributions. tao, I don't support communism, however if you look at Sweeden's history, you will see a great social system of democratic socialism has worked there in the past.

Howard definately has to go at the next election, however Labor won't be getting my first preference at the ballot box for reasons already outlined. Replacing one conservative party with another just a little less conservative is not my prefered option, however in the face of lack of options, we again go for the least of two evils. If given the opportunity I shall vote Green first, C.E.C, then Labor, so Labor end up with the vote, but have to struggle for it.
Posted by SHONGA, Tuesday, 13 June 2006 1:25:05 PM
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NSW Labor has said no nuclear power in NSW period!
Kim Beazley said much more than the press will report, want to understand how biased the press is?
Why have they not stopped Howard and Anderson lieing today? both quote ABS figures on AWA,s to prove those useing them are earning more than EBA,s?
Yet quoted figures are from pre workchoices AWA,s!those after workchoices are mostly imposed agreements not an offer.
Tao! Labors policy is not of shore detention, not in any way a Howard like policy.
This is the team and the policys Labor is takeing to the election, get behind it or face facts workers are not served by undermineing the last chance to get rid of workchoices for 3 more years.
Blokes are you aware ALL UNIONS are in need of more members to keep the doors open?
That workchoices planed always to reduce unions by reduceing membership?
That serveing non unionist with income paid by solid lifetime unionists is betrayal?
Or the concept of devide and conker?
Lies are Howards tools fear is also what value do you place on loyalty?
If we constanly undermine the ALP, and unions do we still have the right to blame other voters for another Howard victory?
Steve Smith appears silent on IR not the man he once promised?
Get behind Australian workers let me hear your voice tao
Beazley! Beazley! Beazley
Now yours SHONGA workers united will NEVER be defeated,
thanks sly well done now again!
Posted by Belly, Tuesday, 13 June 2006 5:46:40 PM
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Belly,
Workers united will never be defeated, unless sold out by the awu. What faction is Stephen Smith, right wing awu faction, does the penny ever drop mate? Working people need more protection than returning to the status quo, which is all Beazley is promising. The ALP has not been a workers party for 40 years, as stated above they will get my third preference.
Posted by SHONGA, Tuesday, 13 June 2006 9:08:44 PM
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hedgehog,

It is no wonder unions are on the decline if you are an example of the vicious leadership on offer.

I'll say it again - will the unions be calling a general strike? If not, why not? Are you calling for one in your own union? I doubt it.

Don't you think they would have much more success if they did? I know that I would certainly think twice if a general strike was called. I bet a lot of others would too, unionised or not.

If the unions are really serious, they will call a general strike, bring the government and big business to its knees, and the ALP will support it. But they will never do it. NEVER. You mark my words. And if I'm wrong I'll be happy to eat my hat.
Posted by tao, Tuesday, 13 June 2006 9:11:20 PM
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I am wasteing my time, while hedgehog and I are forever on opersite sides of unionism we are both true unionists.
You will not find us turning our backs on a worker not ever.
And I would rather him at my back than you two.
Tao your words are wrong your path betrays workers and you should develope views of your own.
SHONGA my union troubles you but its going to be around a long while and remain a matter of pride for its members.
Your heated directionless posts both of you, could focus on Howards lies the pre workchoices AWA contracts and the very big difference in post workchoices AWA,s
Howard sells to the uninformed or the just plain wrong the view there is no difference.
Pre 20 matters could be included post just 5 but post are imposed and gave up much more.
Just a question tao how can your rehash of failed and rejected communism help todays workers?
From what hidden sorce will you find support?
SHONGA can you really think the AWU has controled the ALP like a hidden luminarty for so long?
Really?
Posted by Belly, Wednesday, 14 June 2006 7:33:08 AM
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Tao, you wont even participate in a limited stop work for fear of antagonising your boss. Yet like a clown you continue to call people like me weak, for not calling a general strike. Tao there is nothing nasty in my posts. If the cap fits you must wear it. In your case it is the Marxist cap. All talk and no action.
I encourage you to upset your boss and stop for a few hours on the 28th June. Perhaps you may even meet a few activists that encourage you to stop shooting your mouth off and kick in a bit.
Posted by hedgehog, Wednesday, 14 June 2006 9:50:28 AM
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Belly,
No mate I don't think, I know, Bill Ludwig, Shorthen and crew, I understand you think they are OK and I don't blame you, because when in the forest you don't tend to notice the trees. Good luck all I have nothing to add.
Posted by SHONGA, Wednesday, 14 June 2006 5:37:18 PM
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hedgehog,

As I said, I'll be on holidays - planned a long time ago. In fact I'm leaving tommorow. I therefore haven't had to make the decision.

If unions call a strike, then you can call people who don't go out scabs if you like. Until then, why would workers expect anything to change? Its all pointless unless you have some definitive goal. Getting the piss-weak ALP back in office is not a goal worth losing a job for. And that is all we were told last time. Why will it be any different this time?

Of course you don't have the worry of losing your job. Its a nice cap you wear - calling people weak when you don't even have the same worry as them. If thats not the politics of division I'll eat my hat.

Good luck to you all.

Working people of all countries - Unite!
Posted by tao, Wednesday, 14 June 2006 8:20:26 PM
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The thread calls for Labor to take on workchoices, that leads us to IR reform.
And in my view only Labor can truely reform IR but why only Labor to take on workchoices?
I as a worker take it on daily, and would do nothing different if I never had been a unionist.
Handed back the card to that 2 cents an hour mob yesterday, my big home has about $2.000 of product from them but no more made an issue of it in front of a full store
Handed out the last of this weeks news letters made as late as 3 am each week.
Will be at the your rights at work bus on Sunday and with the CFMEU and the bus on Monday.
This in my view is about the way Australians treat each other fair go mate still has meaning for me.
This federal goverment has lost the way ,changeing our internal laws to crawl to a country that will not ever do the same for us.
Yet we are only a chance, no sure bet, to win goverment!
Why? go back to the top of the thread, read every post again, see how we devide ourselves?
SOLIDARITY! at least while the election is on!
I claim no sainthood for my union ,we have slugs always have always will, do you think I could not fill this page with hate mail about the left unions?
NEVER will I do it
Center Unity is my home AWU my union ALP my party.
Good goverment and true reform my dream.
regards all
Posted by Belly, Thursday, 15 June 2006 7:41:53 AM
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Tao your ignorance is disturbing. You seek to perpetuate the myth that the life of a Union Official is cushy. Your right wing tendecies leak out. No doubt the Libs will have your vote by the time your 30. You will look back on your radical thoughts and talk (note no action)with a wimsy. Ah those wonderful University days,-we were going to change the world.Enjoy your hol's.
Posted by hedgehog, Thursday, 15 June 2006 10:40:24 AM
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Tao, you ended your last post "workers of the world unite" but you talk like a Howard voter. I hope you take the time to vote next year, one year is a long time in politics and three more years with Libs and Nats will be hell. Tao who would you rather PM? the lying evil one or the nice slug? (no fence sitting).

Shonga,scout,belly,hedgehog, at the end of the day I think we mainly agree this is a very serious situation and it must be overturned. Tao?
Posted by Sly, Friday, 16 June 2006 12:13:44 PM
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Well said Sly.
Posted by hedgehog, Friday, 16 June 2006 1:02:36 PM
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First tao, up the thread he told us he could not go on strike because he had just started a new job.
Down the thread its a pre planed holiday.
Yes mate its going to be hard, some unionists like every election ever held will vote against us.
Some with nothing will vote against us, lies told about us will stick and frightened people turn against us.
The tide has turned, we are goverment bound and I think its next year for sure.
But it will be hard taos assertion officials get it easy is rubbish, about twenty hours country letter boxing this three day weekend for me and two half days with your rights at work bus.
my car my fuel, we must continue to sell honesty at work
regards
Belly
Posted by Belly, Friday, 16 June 2006 6:10:03 PM
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