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The Forum > Article Comments > Papua crucial to Indonesia > Comments

Papua crucial to Indonesia : Comments

By Richard Chauvel, published 29/3/2006

Indonesia needs international support to help reduce its dependence on violence to govern Papua.

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Like East Timor, West Papua is - and never was part of Indonesia.

It was given to the Indonesians under pressure after the Dutch left and has turned into another killing field by forced migrations and out of control armed forces.

Anyone who thinks otherwise is a fool and suffers from self-delusion - the murders, rapes and pillaging currently under way is no better than what happened in Timor.
Posted by Kekenidika, Wednesday, 29 March 2006 10:09:48 AM
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With the granting of temporary visas to 42 Papuans, Australia has indicated that it believes Indonesia is behaving badly in Papua.

For this reason, the recall of the Indonesian embassador is not to be wondered at. Indonesia has been directly insulted, and a personal request from the Indonesian president to our PM has been ignored.

The Austalian government is displaying bravado over the Indonesian reaction while, at the same time, trying wriggle out of taking responsibility for the insult.

Both Downer and Vanstone have squealed that it is DIMIA again. It's our law and, ludicrously, they as elected representatives of the Australian people cannot do anything about it!

Get that? Elected representatives must allow government departments under their 'control' to do as they like.

Whether or not Indonesia has a case to answer in Papua is not known by most of us, despite some of the assertions made here based on third-hand reports, and Australia, by granting visas to 42 asylum seekers who might or might not be telling the truth, is a direct insult to our large, valuable neighbour.

It is unlikely Australia will ever get the chance to 'help' Indonesia with Papua as the author suggests.
Posted by Leigh, Wednesday, 29 March 2006 10:31:03 AM
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One wonders what Javanese colonialist aspirations of Papua would be if it were not for the Freeport and other mineral exploitation companies.

If Jakarta was making a loss from Papua, they would drop it like a hot potato, leaving the humanitarian bill for countries like Australia to pick up.

Indonesia does not need international support to help it govern Papua, Indonesia needs a wake up call that Papua has a right (just like East Timor) to determine their own future
Posted by Narcissist, Wednesday, 29 March 2006 10:53:55 AM
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The legality of Indonesian occupation is best summed up in the Wikipedia as follows.....

"Amnesty International has estimated more than 100,000 Papuans have died as a result of government-sponsored violence against West Papuans, while others have set the number at more than 200,000.

In 1969, Indonesia conducted the widely criticized "Act of Free Choice". Prior to the vote, the Indonesian military rounded up and detained for one month a large group of Papuan tribal leaders. The Papuans were daily threatened with death at gunpoint if the entire group did not vote to continue Indonesian rule. Assembled troops and two Western observers acted as witnesses to the public vote; however, the Western observers left after witnessing the first two hundred (of 1,054) votes for integration. With the U.S. embroiled in the Viet Nam War and concerns about the potential rise of Communism in Southeast Asia, the U.S. and other Western powers turned a deaf ear to protests over the circumstances surrounding the vote. The process was deemed to have been an "Act of Free Choice" in accordance with the United Nations requirements, and Indonesia formally annexed the territory in August. Dissenters mockingly called it the "Act of No Choice"."

I need say no more about this illegal occupation. With PNG teethering on bankruptcy, one wonders about its eventual future and impact on the security hat that Papua represents?
Posted by Remco, Wednesday, 29 March 2006 11:24:32 AM
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@kekkenidika:

You are totally wrong. Papua is a legal and integral part of Indonesia according to two UN resolutions (UN General Assembly Resolution XXIV [1970] and UN Resolution 2504 [1963]) supported by results from UN-supervised referendum of self-determination held in 1969 according to New York Agreement between Republic of Indonesia and Kingdom of Netherlands.

Anybody who thinks otherwise is a fool and suffers from self-delusion. The extremely high rate of participation in direct national and regional elections by Papuans, combined with the small amount of Indonesian soldiers (only 10,000 troops guarding area size of France and Low Countries) needed to maintain law and order, indicates that overwhelming proportion of Papuans are satisfied with their current political situation.

Extremely high voter turnout in last month's gubernatorial elections in newly-partitioned province of West Irian Jaya also shows the local people completely approved of this partition.
Posted by Proud to be Indonesian, Wednesday, 29 March 2006 11:27:02 AM
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@renco:

You are completely wrong and your source "Wikipedia", an online "encyclopaedia" that can be edited by anyone, is biased and contains false information.

Census records estimates that native Papuan population multiplied from around 200,000 in 1962 to around 1.2 million today, completely discrediting all accusations of "genocide".

The 1969 referendum is done according to UN regulation, and noted as UN Resolution XXIV in 1970, and has always been considered as valid. Accusations of "intimidation" remains unproven and are mostly based on biased speculations. In fact, integration of Papua into Indonesia has the most secure legal-base in history, compared with most other annexations in world history, which came by military force without any popular consultion at all.
Posted by Proud to be Indonesian, Wednesday, 29 March 2006 11:53:33 AM
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It is difficult to conceive of the essential barbarity and cowardice being shown by so many of Australias academics, journalists and politicians.
Just how many murders and rapes in Papua does it take before people like the author are willing to stop being friends with the murderous thugs to our north.
That country should more properly be called the Javanese empire than Indonesia.
Papua was taken illegally and immorally for purposes of theft and is being held in the same way.
Bali also has little in common with the Javanese.
Australia should be at war with Indonesia on the side of the invaded territories.
Posted by Bull, Wednesday, 29 March 2006 12:21:37 PM
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Proud to Be Indonesian,

You must be joking!

"combined with the small amount of Indonesian soldiers (only 10,000 troops guarding area size of France and Low Countries) needed to maintain law and order, indicates that overwhelming proportion of Papuans are satisfied with their current political situation."

ROTFLMAO!

Do you know how many troops France, Belgium, Luxemburg, and Holland need to maintain law and order? Give you a hint. The same number of troops that Australia, New Zealand, and Great Britain have for maintaining law and order. ZERO.

Democracies don't use military against their own people. Wanna know what Australia's latest military venture is? Helping cyclone affected areas. They're not wandering around Oxford Street armed to the nines. Their wandering around Oxford street dressed in civies on a pub-crawl. Sure, some of them are in Iraq and Afghanistan, but most are still at home, training and waiting.

As the previous posters have stated, put the barrel of a gun in someones face, and they'll vote anyway you want them to. If you don't believe Wikipedia, feel free to write an opposing opinion. I doubt your propaganda will be published though
Posted by Narcissist, Wednesday, 29 March 2006 12:22:57 PM
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To "Proud to be Indonesian".

So you, an individual stands above Wikipedia which is peer reviewed and recently adjudicated by Nature to be almost equivalent to Encyclopedia Brittanica. What an ego!

Indonesia has shown to have low scruples as seen in East Timor (I dont need to refer to the massacres there do I?).

Australia has stepped out of PNG, what about Indonesia acknowledging its illegal occupation and like East Timor, allow the indigenous people determine its future? Sadly for them, Australia sees Papua as its defense hat and swallows its scruples. Time therefore for the UN to point the finger north to Indonesia's illegal, yes illegal, occupiers.
Posted by Remco, Wednesday, 29 March 2006 12:28:45 PM
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Mr 'Proud to be Indonesian',

Please come back when you are 'Proud to be Australian'...

I am going to use the Liberalist line here, and say that it is racist to Australians not to be 'proud to be Australian' in Australia, but to be proud to be of some other soveriegn state - Indoneisia or whatever.

Mr 'Proud to be Indonesian', the only reason Australia does not support Pupua is that a 'stable' Indonesia, an oximoron, is in the Realist strategic interest of Australia, but not in our moral interest - and the 'target practice' for our F111s (which represent a long range offensive nuclear capable stike weapon) and the lasser guided missiles on the Nth Korean drug vessel is the 'slap in the face' to Indonisia - not our granting of visas to Papuan refugees who were being massacred by Indonesia - the US and russia do not aloow other states to acruire such long range nuclear capable bombers, but Australia got its of the US - our F111's are capable of blowing every Indonesain ship out of the water that tries to make its way to Austrlaian land for an invasion - and you have NO capability to defend agaisnt them, send millions of troops, they won't even make it here - that is why the display of Australian power upset the Indos, the 'slap in the face' - and on top of having no power you massacre your own people - still proud to be Indonisian? hahahaha
Posted by baraka, Wednesday, 29 March 2006 1:04:33 PM
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Proud to be Indonesian you really should get your hands out of your pockets, give them something productive to do .... maybe go to West Papua and shoot a few more Nationals, maybe even go across to Aech and shoot a few more over there - BUT stop playing pocket billiards with yourself.

Words usually fail me with self grandiose cretins like you and in this forum space is also against me - and I just do not know enough ways of saying your country is an invading force of rapacious corrupt thieves and murderers - I have seen the results of your country's incursions into Papuan territory and to speak bahasha in markets is enough to empty them in less than 5 minutes.

The only rate of high participation from the West Papuans has been at the point of a gun - and as it has been succinctly written in wikipedia is so very true - and only 10,000 troops armed with modern weapons to control fairly primitive native nationals rates with your also failed control over Aech - with the exception that Aech are your fellow muslims, rather than animists and christians.

Bull, Narcissist and Remco - apart from agreeing 110% I can only add that - "I have been there and done that" (sorry about that hackneyed phrase) - I have seen the early results of Indonesian "pacification" and their efforts of "maintaining law and disorder[sic]" and the sooner that effete boofheaded foreign minister prattling on about nothing in general realizes he is even more despicable that booze guzzling Gareth Evans was for his shameless betrayal of Timor - absolutely gutless cowardice ...... more suitable word fail me - and would not be acceptable here, so rather than descending to the same gutter level of speech they display in our Parliament - I leave knowing that not all Australians are fazed by the recall of Indonesian Ambassadors - it is more a pity they also do not recall their 10,000 "Law and Order" troops
Posted by Kekenidika, Wednesday, 29 March 2006 1:18:51 PM
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It is interesting to note, that our government is overtly committed to fighting for freedom and democracy in both Afghanistan and Iraq. Yet, our government baulks at supporting these values where there is a case to support them in our region. What does this say about our government?
Proud to be Indonesian claims that West Papua is apart of Indonesia. This may be so, but the people of West Papua are not Indonesian. They are West Papuan.
Posted by gilbertos, Wednesday, 29 March 2006 3:08:50 PM
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Among the stated aims of the Bandung Conference, 1955, of newly-independent Afro-Asian states (including Indonesia), was opposition
to colonisation.
Ausralia's presence in Papua New Guinea came under so much pressure
that the work on preparing PNG for nationhood was cut short, as Australia pulled out; to the dismay of the colonised.
Apparently it is only "colonialism" if it is practiced by caucasians.
Posted by gulliver, Wednesday, 29 March 2006 3:45:12 PM
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West Papua belongs to the ethnic Papuals regardless of the so called
"Act of Free Choice" conducted in haste by the United Nations and despite the Javanese transmigration and foreign resources plunder of the Papuan's wealth.
The Papuans need International support,to recover their birthright from the shameful act of treachery that delivered their heritage into the control of the Javanese usurpers;not the other way round.

The Indonesians were affronted when East Timor slipped from their grasp due to the brutality and corruption they perpetrated on the East Timorese people for 24 years.... They chose to blame Australia when we moved in to stop the carnage that was deliberately carried out as an act of revenge when the people overwhelmingly voted under the auspices of the U.N. for Independence.

The East Timorese might have accepted 'autonomy' if the Indonesians had been more benign colonisers instead of permitting their Generals to enrich themselves at the expense of the populace...
And so it is with the West Papuans...Ethnic people have been displaced by massive transmigration and the village people have not enjoyed the fruits of their country's exploited resources..

I am disgusted with the Australian Government's continuing grovelling
afraid of losing trade when they should continue to stand up for justice and basic principles of Democracy.

If Indonesia are offended ,then so be it.
They won't get any sympathy from me.
Posted by maracas, Wednesday, 29 March 2006 9:58:19 PM
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Bull thinks Australia should be at war with Indonesia, and others are disgusted that Australia is not doing more for West Papua. All are entitled to their opinions, but they are not entitled to think that an entire nation and its people should do what they want. They are also able to think that Australia should put other countries to rights and save people from what they see as acts of brutality, but Australia has no such obligation or right to interfere in Indonesia. Indonesia could not be expected to tolerate another East Timor.

The majority of Australians and Indonesians have no desire to be at odds with each other over a handful of asylum seekers who, if they really needed asylum, could have hopped the border into East Timor. Instead, they took an ocean cruise to Australia where they knew they could look forward to spending the rest of their lives in relative luxury at the expense of the Australian taxpayer.

All those people who 'know' what should be done can join any number of groups who love to interfere in things they don't understand, but they should leave the rest of us out of it, thankyou.
Posted by Leigh, Thursday, 30 March 2006 9:50:36 AM
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We clearly have two opposing views of what the Papuan's want. One side is telling us that they all want to be part of the Javanese Empire while the other is telling us that they all want independence. The truth, however, is somewhere in the middle.

The International Covenant on Economic, Social and Cultural Rights makes it clear that it is neither the Javanese nor the Australian choice as to what the Papuan's status will be. The sole determinant of the status of Papuans is the Papuan people themselves.
See http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/other/dfat/treaties/1976/5.html

"Article 1. All peoples have the right of self-determination. By virtue of that right they freely determine their political status and freely pursue their economic, social and cultural development".

And if our proud Indonesian friend is so certain that Indonesia has the informed consent of Papuans for their current status then the easiest way to end all the speculation is to hold another "act of free choice". There is no international principle that restricts the Papuans to only one vote back in 1969. They have every right to demand and vote on self determination, any time THEY choose.

And any talk about the impact of such a choice on the Javanese Empire is irrelevant. The Papuan's choice is not subject to any sort of "Javanese Benefit Test" and nor is it subject to any "Australian Benefit Test".

Indonesia's failure to respect the very article that formed the basis of their own independence from colonialism implies that their own independence can be made subject to the will of others.
Posted by Perseus, Thursday, 30 March 2006 11:09:04 AM
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@Remco:

Yes, Papua's integration with Indonesia is completely legal. Nothing you or any other Australian yobbo say can change this fact. Deal with it.

@Bull:

LOL, Australia want to make war with Indonesia? What a joke. Australia has neither the capability nor military competence to "invade" anybody, especially a larger and stronger country like Indonesia. If you are still suicidal, we 250 million Indonesians will make you pay with blood for each time the dirty feet of Australian invader dare to touch sacred Indonesian soil. What the US is experiencing in Iraq would be childsplay compared to the carnage we'll inflict on your asses. We Indonesians will fight to the last drop of blood to defend our sacred motherland!

@Narcissist:

LOL you must be joking. The UK actually posts one-third of its military in Northern Ireland to maintain law and order amongst the Brit-haters Irish separatist micks. In the process, over 1500 British soldiers were killed. Even now, there are more British soldiers posted in Northern Ireland compared with Iraq. Spain has also used its military to deal with ETA terrorists. France has 300,000 standing army which undoubtedly be used should a group, say the French Muslims who managed to rampage France for weeks without much opposition last year, decided to launch armed insurgency. The US used its military to crush the violent Waco, Texas religious fanatics in 1993. In short, yes, democracies always has and always will use its armed forces against internal security threats.

@kekkendika:

LOL, Indonesian elections are always open to domestic and foreign observers. In 1999 and 2004 elections, Jimmy Carter came with 2000 of his employees to monitor our elections. They all found Indonesian elections to be free, fair, and without any intimidation.

BTW actually Aceh is 100% under effective Indonesian rule, the weak rebellion movement there having surrendered in 2005.
Posted by Proud to be Indonesian, Saturday, 1 April 2006 11:53:28 AM
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@baraka:

WTF are you babbling about? From a few discrenable parts of your babble, here's my response:

1) Australia acknowledged Indonesian rule over Papua because it has no choice, the province has been ruled by Indonesia since 1963, and is acknowledged internationally since 1969. Nothing Australia say or do can affect the fact that Papua is Indonesian.

2) LOL, Australia cannot stop 8000 simple Indonesian fishing boats from fishing in "Australian" waters annually and landing in Australian mainland at will. It is clear Australia has no military capability at all to disturb Indonesian territory.

@Perseus:

LOL I think you play too much game, boy. There is no such thing as "Javanese Empire", while West Papuans already chose to join Indonesia in a UN-supervised referendum in 1969. Deal with it.

@Leigh:

Indeed, Australia should learn the principle of MYOB, especially when dealing with its more powerful neighbours like Indonesia, with which Australia neither exerts any influence nor possess any power. Australians should learn their position in the food chain of Asian regional affairs, i.e. at the very bottom aka you have no power at all. Australia then should behave according to this lowly position.
Posted by Proud to be Indonesian, Saturday, 1 April 2006 11:59:40 AM
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So you are proud to be Indonesian !!
That doesn't say very much for your humanity..Of course you are not representative of the millions of the population but rather another right wing extremist fanatic with delusions of grandeur.

Indonesia is not an example of a flourishing democracy when it has to resort to military force against their own citizens.
Just as Soeharto was forced from power, so too will be the present corrupt regime. You can give credit to the force of nature; (the Tsunami) which crushed the Acehnese separatist movement temporarily. Not the Indonesian Military which moved in after the disaster to withold aid from the survivors to bring them to their knees...Dont kid yourself that the flame of independence was extinguished permanently.

Hopefully, the International Community will bring about change for the long suffering West Papuans who became 'indonesian' through a shameful deception of the people who never have been anything other that West Papuan when they continue to raise the Morning Star flag.

You must be dreaming if you think for a moment that Indonesian TNI is militarily powerful...They have only subdued defenceless women, children and old people....Villagers armed with Bows and Arrows. Their efforts in East Timor against a 'handful of guerillas' could not extinguish the East Timorese fight for Independence and the cowardly killings and destruction of property only proceeded until Australian Troops landed when the TNI and their militias fled across the border like the craven cowards they were.

If you wish to express some pride in being Indonesian, show some humility and humanity instead of beating your breast and spouting empty rhetoric.
Posted by maracas, Saturday, 1 April 2006 6:50:46 PM
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PTBI

you surprise me. Let me correct one point you made in a previous post about me needing to "moderate my hatred of Muslims". You misunderstand my position. I am fervent and passionate about my condemnation of 'Islam'. But as a Christian I regard any Muslim in the Biblical sense of 'my neighbour'. I hope you know what this means.. read the parable of the good samaritan if u need.

You have indicated you are Christian, but seriously it seems in name only brother... "nationalistic arrogance" "Foul language" (WT*)
Ridicule "You are at the bottom of the food chain, and powerless" etc...

No nation attempts to rely on its own strength alone, hence ANZUS treaty. But don't neglect the "Commonwealth".

No need to respond to claims by Aussies about PNG with 'ridicule' you are making reasonable factual statements such as the UN supervised referendum, if this is all true, don't 'detract' from this truth by ridicule, it weakens your true points.

The Scripture says

22let us draw near to God with a sincere heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled to cleanse us from a guilty conscience and having our bodies washed with pure water. 23Let us hold unswervingly to the hope we profess, for he who promised is faithful. 24And let us consider how we may spur one another on toward love and good deeds. (Heb 10)

So, I'm now stirring you... fight falsehood with truth, but make sure it is real truth and not just nationalistic pride. The same goes for we Aussies.

Mendekatilah Tuhan, hampirilah anugerahNya, peluklah kebenaran yang ada dalam Tuhan Yesus, jadilah dibanjiri dengan kasihNya. Biarlah Kasih Dia mengawal hidupmu seratus peratus. Salam
Posted by BOAZ_David, Sunday, 2 April 2006 9:24:49 AM
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"over a handful of asylum seekers who, if they really needed asylum, could have hopped the border into East Timor" Wow, Leigh, what a solid grasp of Indonesian geography you have!

I can only reiterate, Indonesia's occupation of West Papua is brutal, bloody and illegal. The region has no lingusitic, ethnic or cultural ties with Indonesia. Indonesia's occupation is an example of neocolonialism, plain and simple.
Posted by Viking, Sunday, 2 April 2006 7:33:05 PM
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And lets not forget the role the ACTU played in the subjugation of West Papua. The Dutch were quite willing to continue to defend WP from indonesian incursions but they needed to source their supplies from Australia rather than transport all the way from Europe.

And by some hideous logic the ACTU but a ban on Dutch shipping and in so doing allowed a much more brutal Javanese colonialism to take over from Dutch colonialism. If the ACTU had not intervened then there would certainly now be an independent nation of West Papua. The Dutch have a record of preparing their former dependent colonies for independence and creating viable nations like Surinam. Can't say the same about the Javanese, can we?
Posted by Perseus, Sunday, 2 April 2006 10:01:43 PM
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Perseus;
It is more appropriate to equate the ousting of the Dutch from 'Indonesia' with the Vietnamese resistance to their French Colonialists, seeking to resume their colonial rule after deserting the population to the mercy of the advancing Japanese.
The Soekarno Government was much more benign than the violent Military Terror that was unleashed to impose the Suharto regime which implemented expansionist annexation of it's neighbours to satisfy the political requirements of the USA during the cold war.(see Henry Kissingers comments recently released in FOI )
I recommend reading Rupert Lockwoods authoritative "Black Armada"
to obtain an accurate record of events as they unfolded.
first published by the Australasian Book Society in 1975
ISBN 9 09916 68 3 Southwood Press
Posted by maracas, Sunday, 2 April 2006 10:46:17 PM
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@maracas:

LOL, your post is full of crap. Papua will always be Indonesian, regardless of what Australians think. East Timor was deliberately let go by President Habibie who views the worthless piece of real estate as endless cesspit of subsidies during time of economic crisis. Indonesia is better-off without East Timor, while East Timor is now the poorest country in the world where one out of ten babies died at birth, 60% of the population lives in poverty, and education has so deteriorated that only 50% of the population can read.

@BOAZ_David:

Indeed Australia has no power nor any influence whatsoever in Asia-Pacific affairs. Australia is at best marginally noticed as stooge of USA. Anzus might be useful in the unlikely event anybody bothered to invade Australia, but if you think US is going to support Australia in invading other countries, particularly Indonesia, you have got to be joking. US views Indonesia as important ally in the fight against terrorism, as we are based according to secular Pancasila nationalism. US also knew since it failed in its occupation of Iraq, a much smaller and less complex country, it is clear US has no capability to occupy Indonesia.

http://washingtontimes.com/world/20060313-102838-5694r.htm

Australia is only capable of copying whatever US policy-of-the-day is, it has no power to decide its own foreign policy. You might be white, but you are an insignificant white country.

BTW, I am surprised how a foreign man of God go out of his way to meddle in our affairs over some Indonesians settling in another part of Indonesia, just because of their religion. I think such religious intolerance would only push Muslims to the breast of fanatics like OBL. You know you're better than that.
Posted by Proud to be Indonesian, Monday, 3 April 2006 8:13:26 AM
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@Viking&Perseus:

You are completely wrong, West Papua has strong linguistic and cultural links with other parts of Indonesia. A prime example of two peoples that should not live together is the white colonialists and Australian Aborigines. Not only there are no cultural, linguistic, or ethnic ties between the two races, whites have no rights over Australia, a land they illegally stole from the rightful Aboriginal owners by the criminal concept of "terra nullius". Your brutal and genocidal policy towards Aborigines further underlined the criminality of your occupation of Aboriginal lands. No wonder, considering the criminal origins of Australian whites.

Whites should return all their stolen land to the rightful owners: Aborigines, and return to whatever desolate English or Irish hamlets you came from!

Otherwise, you whites must pay the Aborigines for all those lands you stole (all of Australia) according to current property rates, plus the rightful amount of compensation for all the millions of Aborigines raped, murdered, and tortured by whites, and for all the cultural genocide you've inflicted on Aborigines.
Posted by Proud to be Indonesian, Monday, 3 April 2006 8:16:49 AM
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Proud to be Indonesian......
If there was any truth in your assertions,you and your kind would seek to have the indigenous West Papuans have a properly supervised referendum (not like the rigged one in 1963) about whether or not they considered themselves Indonesian or West Papuan Melanesians...without the extreme intimidation that marked the East Timorese U.N. Supervised referendum that voted overwhelmingly for Independence despite the Indonesian Kopassus led thugs threats of violence if they did not vote for autonomy.
Otherwise both your latest posts are typical verbal diahorrea from the twisted mind of a fundamentalist,racist fanatic.
Posted by maracas, Monday, 3 April 2006 9:30:04 AM
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That is a very interesting logical twist you display, Proud to be Indonesian. You say all "white" Australians, even those born here, and those who came from other countries, should be sent back to England. But what about my Chinese/Canadian wife? And our children? And what about all those Vietnamese/Australians, the Thai/Australians and the Philippino/Australians? Do they get to stay because their asian background gives them greater legitimacy?

Your country's Transmigration Policy seems to suggest that it is alright for Javanese people to settle on the tribal lands of Papuan, Batak and Dayak people's but it is not OK for Europeans. This is not meant to excuse what was done in Australia in the 1800's but there is a very big difference between Australian and Indonesian migration.

Australia became a majority European culture in about 1850. It is already done and nothing can change history. We have no other home. But West Papua is still majority Papuan and the Javanese takeover is taking place right now and being subsidised by your government. And that is something about which something can be done, and should be done.

If your government is governing for all the people within it's current boundaries then why aren't the Dayak and Papuan people given the same level of subsidies that Javanese people get if they migrate to Borneo, Sulawesi or Papua?
Posted by Perseus, Monday, 3 April 2006 11:11:54 AM
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PTBI

A couple of points.

1/ I would NEVER hope that the USA/ANZUS treaty would be invoked for 'aggresive' action. It is without question only a defensive treaty.

2/ Intolerance for Islam/Transmigration.

This 'man of God' has had Muslims force him to place 'pro Muslim' election propoganda on his own home, with the special branch lurking around just in case I did not comply.
I've seen the tactics used 'quietly' by Muslims in seeking to change population balances and cultural textures, advancing Islam with extravagant spending on gold plated Mosque domes etc...in areas they seek to control. Before you criticize me too much, please remember I've 'been there, done that' :) I've lived it.

So please don't describe my warning signals are 'intolerance'. I'm intolerant of deliberate actions to dilute existing culture and faith, the use of state resources to acheive this. That is not intolerance it is the prophetic word of truth.

I don't have much to say about the 42 assylum seekers. I prefer to leave that to the government and its policy. I don't know enough about them to commment intelligently.

Again, I urge you to reflect on my stirrings in regard to your own faith. What I shared with you, is bigger than nationalism or ethnicity, its about our relationship to God in Christ
Posted by BOAZ_David, Monday, 3 April 2006 8:36:34 PM
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@maracas:

LOL Papuans already had a free and fair UN-supervised referendum in 1969 where they chose to join Indonesia. That is historical fact and nobody can change it. No further referendum will happen as both Indonesian national and regional legislatives are never interested in such redundant action, whereby the result would be a certain victory for Indonesia as nearly 60% of Papuan inhabitants are transmigrants and majority of native Papuans are loyal Indonesian citizens who actively participated in Indonesian national and political life.

Abt East Timor, some groups might disagreed with Habibie's plan to expel East Timor from Indonesia since they were not consulted first, but overwhelming majority of Indonesians approved the eviction of East Timor from Republic of Indonesia since the original aim of taking-over East Timor (neutralisation of potential communist state during Cold War) has became redundant, while the resourceless half-island only served as financial liability for Indonesia.

@BOAZ_David:

Don't equate your experiences in Malaysia with Indonesia. In Malaysia, Islam is the state religion, while Indonesia is a secular country where all religions are considered equal.

Indonesia never planned to "Islamice" Papua. The Muslim transmigrants are there to relieve over-population in their home provinces.

In fact, it is Indonesian/Indonesian-licensed missionaries who are responsible for spread of Christianity in Papua, as at the end of Dutch rule, overwhelming majority of native Papuans are Stone-Age "pagans", while today almost 70% of Papuan inhabitants are Christians (including Christian transmigrants). Indonesian law ensure that all governors and district chiefs in Papua province are native Papuans, who are mostly Christians. Indonesian military chiefs (Gen George Toisutta) and police chiefs (Comm. Tommy Jacobus) in Papua are always Christians. As a Christian missionary, you should realise that Indonesia is the sole supporter and defender of Christianity in Papua.
Posted by Proud to be Indonesian, Tuesday, 4 April 2006 11:03:07 AM
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[Deleted for abuse]
Posted by Proud to be Indonesian, Tuesday, 4 April 2006 11:10:40 AM
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What an extraordinarily inconsistent mind you have demonstrated, "Proud tb Indonesian". I have taken your last post and swapped the nations around to see how it reads.

"There is indeed a very big difference between Australian and Indonesian migration, your migration is a criminal and illegal act of landgrab where you inflicted physical and cultural genocide upon the West Papuan people. Meanwhile, Australia's legal migration into that continent is an overwhelmingly positive development for economic and social progress of native Australians, whose tribal customs were given the widest respect, whose political ascendancy we protect by law, and whose human development we subsidise.

Indeed, migrants in Australia have turned the provinces into the worlds food-bowl and they are the centre of all economic/commercial development there. Without these hard-working migrants, the economy of Australia would collapse and most Australians would end-up unemployed".

And before you get too far into your stereotypes, I can advise that my pioneer ancestors paid for their land in full to the government that sold it to them. Which is a lot more than your generals do for their logging concessions over tribal forests.

And furthermore, it was our farms that provided the social safety net for the aboriginal community who understood that an easier and more dependable way to maintain a full stomach was with a chipping hoe, a ringbarking axe or a brush hook. There was very little charity anywhere 150 years ago and least of all in the cities. And it was this knowledge, that a day spent weeding always covered the cost of a full stomach, that sent the urban unemployed down country roads during the great depression. You can demonise our history all you want but all through the Australian bush there are properties where the aborigines supplied the knowledge and the labour in exchange for the marketing and administrative skills of the nominal white "owner". As one of the Durack family said, "if there was exploitation, it was mutual".

But of course, in your mind "mutual benefit" only takes place in Indonesia while "genocide and dispossession" only occurs in Australia.
Posted by Perseus, Tuesday, 4 April 2006 12:48:43 PM
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People dont flee their homeland and undertake perilous sea voyages during the monsoon season and plead for asylum from persecution without cause.
Indonesian indignance and demand they be returned seeks to play down the facts of continuing Papuan repression which is attracting increasing International sympathy for the Independence claims and a properly conducted referendum of indigenous Papuans as was conducted in relation to East Timor.

Academics can interpret the future prosperity of Indonesia as needing Papua to maintain injections into their economy,but they do not have the right to sellout the aspirations of independence for Papuans.
Just because Papua was included in the Dutch East Indies Colonial Empire does not mean the new nation of Indonesia had inherited those Colonial possessions.

Despite the assertions by Indonesian Nationalists that Papua belongs to them because of the rigged referendum, Papuans will continue to press their demands for Independence. Recent unrest and killings followed by Indonesian Military retaliation only serve to strengthen the demand for Independence.
There will undoubtedly be more People attempting to flee from persecution who may well be turned back as a result of increased surveillance by Indonesia and Australia under the Howard Governments policy on asylum seekers.
President Susilio Bambang Yudohono has not succeeded in reigning in the excesses of the Military who are resisting civilian control and this fact can only exacerbate the present state of institutional corruption that will eventually bring about the demise of yet another regime.
Indonesia has yet to experience true democracy that was the original aspiration of the people.
Posted by maracas, Tuesday, 4 April 2006 1:03:15 PM
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@Perseus:

Cut the crap and show Aborigines the money! Either you compensate them for their land, or you tell the govt to pay them. None of your excuses can justify the horrible fate of Aborigines.

@maracas:

These Papuan "refugees" are self-proclaimed separatists who made this journey as method of dirty propaganda on Indonesia.
Posted by Proud to be Indonesian, Friday, 7 April 2006 5:02:25 PM
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Proud to be Indonesian, you say,'the Muslim TRANSMIGRANTS are there to relieve overpopulation in their home provinces.'
Isn't that another word for 'invasion?'
Does that mean that any country with no form of birth or population control can, when they overpopulate,take control of a weaker country for the purpose of over populating that one as well.
When does it stop?
Posted by mickijo, Monday, 10 April 2006 3:26:32 PM
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@mickijo:

LOL, again you show your complete ignorance on Indonesia. Actually Indonesia received UN award for the most successful birth control program in the world (KB=Keluarga Berencana). You, a white squatting on stolen Aboriginal land, displaying ethnic-racism against Indonesians settling in their own country is disgustingly bemusing. Instead of stupidly trying to tell Indonesians what to do or where to live in their own country, do the decent thing: give back the land you stole from Aborigines and return to your real home in England or Ireland!
Posted by Proud to be Indonesian, Monday, 10 April 2006 4:00:39 PM
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Ashamed to be Indonesian ?

Indonesian birth control is another word for ethnic /religious cleansing. It can hardly qualify as a democratic country when it has to use military repression to control the population.
The extremes of poverty and wealth only continue to exist whilst the resources of the region are plundered to make the rich even rich.You should be ashamed to express pride in such a corrupt country.However I must assume you are a propagandist enjoying the wealth of the country at the expense of the people. You dont fool anyone.
Posted by maracas, Monday, 10 April 2006 4:54:18 PM
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@mickijo:
"Does that mean that any country with no form of birth or population control can, when they overpopulate,take control of a weaker country for the purpose of over populating that one as well.
When does it stop?"

Indeed this is exactly the case with white invasion of Aboriginal country Australia. When will this illegal settlement of whites in Australia stop? When will you give back the land you stole to its rightful Aboriginal owners and go back to where you really came from, England or Ireland? When will you abide by the Aboriginals' democratic call of you white squatters to leave their land?
http://dailytelegraph.news.com.au/story/0,20281,18780402-5001028,00.html

Remember, you are NOT a real Australian, only Aborigines can call themselves that. You are just an English/Irish/*random European nationality* who are squatting in stolen Aboriginal land for too long.

@maracas:

LOL, another of your drunken fairy-tale. Indonesia's award-winning family planning program is mostly targetted at the overcrowded Javanese villages, are you now saying Indonesia is trying to "ethnically-cleanse" Javanese as well?

Indonesia is the world's third largest democracy, we can only look down on Australia, a small country that oppressed its indigenous population so mercilessly, yet claimed itself to be a "democracy". What a joke!
Posted by Proud to be Indonesian, Tuesday, 11 April 2006 9:00:45 AM
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I think you are ranting a bit PTBI, many divers people have come to this country for various reasons. The very first colonists had it very hard, they and their descendants and other arrivals have toiled to make this a pretty wonderful country.
True the Aboriginals were not treated well but we have tried to make up for their sufferings.
Our roots are as deep into this soil now as theirs, we belong to country more than it belongs to us.
It is good that you are proud of your country,we are proud of ours.
Posted by mickijo, Tuesday, 11 April 2006 3:02:48 PM
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The impertinent responses of indonesian officials to Australia granting temporary Visas to the asylum seekers from West Papua gives an interesting insight to the ignorance of Indonesia regarding Australia's obligation to genuine asylum seekers under international law.

Demands are being raised for Prime Minister Howard to go to Jakarta to explain to the Indonesians Australia's reasons for granting asylum to west Papuans when refusing sanctuary to middle eastern refugees.
What they don't understand is that the Australian Government under Howard was using the fear of terrorism by middle eastern refugees as a vehicle to get re-elected when many Australians opposed his government's actions in dealing with middle eastern asylum seekers.

Thankfully the Australian Immigration Department learned a lesson in humanity after wrongfully dealing with detainees in detention centres and granted visas to the deserving west Papuans fleeing from excesses of the Indonesian Military who are the real rulers of Indonesia and are fearful of adverse publicity being broadcast round the world of their heavy handed treatment of the separatist movements.
Apologists for the brutal Indonesian Military do not seem to understand that it is the violent actions of the military that must be reined in by SBY and his Government if an exodus of asylum seekers is to be curbed.

International support should place sanctions on all military co-operation with the Indonesian Military to assist the Indonesian Government assume proper control
Posted by maracas, Wednesday, 12 April 2006 10:28:01 PM
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@maracas:

LOL, Indonesian people, government, and military are united in our determination to fight separatists and all their foreign sympathisers and maintain our unity and integrity, the most cherised Indonesian national value. None of you dummy Australians can ever break this sacred unity!

About "embargo", President Bush said Indonesian military is USA's friend. Friend of USA is friend of Australia since USA is master of Australia. So, listen to your master president Bush, Ozzie boy, and start befriending Indonesian people, govt, and military!
Posted by Proud to be Indonesian, Friday, 14 April 2006 12:09:02 PM
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PtbI: "...start befriending Indonesian people, govt, and military"

Please define exactly what you people think of as "befriending". Let me list some of the friendly things Australia has done for Indonesia.

1. In the late 1940's Australia lobbied to the UN for Indonesian independence from the Dutch,
2. In the late 1940's our unions refused to load Dutch ships at our ports in sympathy with Indonesia's campaign for independence,
3. Australia continued to provide Indonesia with finanical aid during Indonesia'a aggressive Konfrontasi against Malaysia from 1963 to 1966 (and we continue to provide you aid today),
4. Australia did not stand in the way of Indonesia's takeover of West Papua,
5. Australia did not stand in the way of Indonesia's takeover of East Timor (and did nothing about it until Indonesia's human rights record become so appalling the situation was embarrassing for all concerned),
6. When Indonesia was hit by the Tsunami Australia pledged a billion dollars in further aid and assistance in cleaning up.

This is just a short list of half a dozen examples of what most grateful countries would call major examples of being friendly.

We have asked for nothing in return. Instead Indonesia does nothing but complain, whinge and carry on like a bunch of sooks.

I doubt very much if you can name any other country that has done as much for Indonesia as Australia has.

Have a nice day...mate.
Posted by AdvanceAustralia, Wednesday, 19 April 2006 4:15:55 PM
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