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The Forum > Article Comments > Time to end the divorce between loyalty and the family law > Comments

Time to end the divorce between loyalty and the family law : Comments

By Mirko Bagaric, published 6/2/2006

Mirko Bagaric argues that loyalty as an attribute in relationships has been seriously undervalued.

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Good article, this is vital to the future of society.
There are many reasons a marriage breaks up, but a reason I have seen many times is sheer selfishness. A woman (not a man) is able to initiate a break-up, then be awarded the house, the children, and a large enough maintenance payment to prevent the former husband ever being able to support another family.
This amounts to the state bribing women to divorce.
A woman of weak character whose marriage is not as happy as she imagines it could be can be easily tempted by this.
The children are automatically given to the mother, but what message does it send to the children seeing betrayal and disloyalty rewarded like this? Are the children really better off?
Posted by Bull, Monday, 6 February 2006 12:45:41 PM
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The article makes much sense and it is yet another call to limit the damage being done by those who have a take it or leave attitude to marriage.
Posted by pablo, Monday, 6 February 2006 1:42:34 PM
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Mirko, I liked your article very much. The concept of loyalty is to seldom talked about. I did have concerns about differentiating between the garden variety things and the big stuff.

"The “garden variety” betrayal (such as where one partner has a deficit in terms of their contribution to house work or the bank balance) should be left in the garden."

Before I proceed further I would like to make it clear that I am very strongly opposed to infidelity within relationships where that infidelity is not mutually agreed so I am not supporting people cheating on partners.

I do suspect that often the garden variety betrayals can add up to something far worse than the big ones. A willingness to use another person for your own ends, demanding loyalty whilst returning none can be extroardinarliy destructive of the other person. What proportion of indifelity is the result of people seeking intimacy that they are not getting in a dysfunctional relationship?

Likewise during my own marriage breakup I would have little confidence in my ability to be more convincing than my ex to strangers regarding our respective contributions to the breakup/failure of the marriage.

In my view my ex is an expert at playing the suffering victim. Given the level of gender bias I have seen in the implementation of family law (and surrounding services such as Relationships Australia, C$A etc) the thought of an external party trying to determine fault could have been even more damaging than the process already was.

On the DV front, never excusable but should we differentiate between those who were hit because they tormented a partner until he or she cracked and those who suffered abuse at the hands of someone who hits because they think it is OK?

I have no easy answers to either. I would be concerned if we start seperating out particular behaviours from the context of the marriage.

R0bert
Posted by R0bert, Monday, 6 February 2006 1:50:52 PM
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I've been taking anti-depressive tablets for years, especially after, the 'part time waitress' de-facto Ex, employed a Lawyer to get what she could, after starting another relationship.
I have worked permanently since 15yo and weekends to earn an 'average wage’, her and my female lawyer agreed to her demands of;
Her maintaining Custody of our children, only 1 night p.w. at my place. Half my large Superannuation in CASH {no tax or waiting till 65}.More than half of Assets {the house valued at over inflated 2004 prices},all regardless of my mortgage repayments and contributions.
The Govt's relationship's centre's will not fix anything when ;
"No-Fault" separations teaches No Accountability to women, it provides Judges with a "easy norm" to be bias in favour of women and makes Lawyer's very rich by escalating conflict,who of these 'professionals' cared or asked about honesty or loyality;
NO-ONE !
Posted by What Justice, Monday, 6 February 2006 5:19:08 PM
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Mirko

Thank you for a very timely and balanced article. Loyalty is such a precious concept, and a precious life principle which is rarely talked about these days. Good on you.

Thank you to all previous posters.

Cheers
Kay
Posted by kalweb, Monday, 6 February 2006 5:51:41 PM
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neither marriage, nor pre-marriage classes will teach people 'loyalty'. we need a much more conprehensive change in culture, not just things written on paper.

loyalty had long been admired by many cultures. sometimes to extremes. no-fault divorce was introduced because the requirement to prove fault was leading to some people either being trapped in abusive relationships or finding their partner manipulating a fault cause to allow them to get out - and take a large slab of the marriage property with them.

the issue of people bouncing from bad relationship to bad relationship is not solved by trapping them in the first bad relationship. that was the reason for no fault divorce in the first place. we need to actually put some time and effort into learning relationship skills. as a culture and a society. that can only be achieved by making it a social norm that every person who expects to be considered and treated like and adult actually *is* an adult.

too many people move from their teens into their twenties and on without growing up. marriage and divorce is not the place for us to be enforcing behavioural standards that are not expected anywhere else. it is too late to hope that couples will have mature relationships by putitng them through a couple of tedious sessions on stuff they probably assume they already know.

blaming lawyers is unfair. we don't cause your relationships to fail. it is not our fault if your ex got a lawyer and you didn't. blame is easy. *doing something* to resolve *your own* problems is *your* responsibility. once it's left to us, all we can do is apply the law, in light of what you give us to work with.

loyalty, like any other social value, is socially constructed. people are not lacking in loyalty. they're just not loyal tothe things and in the way you might like them to be loyal. we're loyal to our client's interests. that's our job, and out ethical responsibility.
Posted by maelorin, Monday, 6 February 2006 9:29:05 PM
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It has been habitual to discuss social issues - such as marriage, divorce, abortion and the birth-rate - as purely economic things. The change in social attitudes to make all these things increase (apart from the birth-rate, which has decreased) has occured, but is seemingly above blame. To ask for a return to some of the values which create a truly civic society in which people are treated as more than just means to some hedonistic end, such as a call to loyalty, is very welcome.

One must question, however, the degree to which loyalty is being reasserted when a dissatisfied married man or woman leaves the relationship without seeking to improve it can leave and have no penalty. One might then argue in return that the government's compulsary lectures and sessions ensure that thought is given.

There must be a concern, however, when dealing with claims of domestic violence, for, as has been seen in custody battles, it can be manipulated. A proof-based system for domestic violence would be needed in order to change the income distribution, rather than the current discretion used in family courts regarding custody.

Loyalty must go futher: reasserting parental responsibility for wayward children; compulsary national military service; manners; respect for the flag and institutions of our nation; quashing of libellious, seditious and treasonable speech. That is, we must show how society is connected not only by choices, but by the things we cannot chose... birth, circumstance and love.
Posted by DFXK, Monday, 6 February 2006 11:46:38 PM
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I have absolutely nothing worthwhile to contribute to this thread and am wasting my fifth post simply because I can.
Posted by tubley, Tuesday, 7 February 2006 12:23:26 AM
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I just don't see that people are really taking their marriages less seriously- I am in my early twenties, with several friends marrying recently. Each and every one of those people is perfectly aware that divorce is an option, but I think that makes them value thier relationship more- THEY do not want to be a statistic. Each of them, when taking their vows, truly believed that they would be together forever.

In many ways, having divorce as an option has helped my friends to 'work' at their relationships, as they know that they cannot just assume once the rings are exchanged that things will stay the same for evermore.

Heh. But we'll see how things are in twenty years!
Posted by Laurie, Tuesday, 7 February 2006 9:08:11 AM
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Tubley,
Those of us with Chronic Major Depression, and other related disorders know exactly what you mean, some days are diamonds, and some days are stones, I guess you are having a "stone" day, I am too.

Regards,Shaun
Posted by SHONGA, Tuesday, 7 February 2006 9:56:06 AM
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Laurie

Perhaps you're lucky enough to be in a circle of friends who are currently loyal to one another. But overall the divorce rate is increasing. I think it transcends marriage into all aspects of life. People can't even own a dog anymore without neglecting the poor thing.
Posted by tubley, Tuesday, 7 February 2006 9:56:13 AM
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The number one cause of divorce is... marriage.

The only guaranteed way to reduce the divorce rate is to NOT MARRY.

Anything less is window dressing.

Sheesh, why do people still join such an arcane institution modelled on such antiquated family/social/gender roles in an an age where the landscape has changed so fundamentally?

In the context of all those changes of the last 50yrs, traditional marriage is like trying to put a round peg in a square hole.

Howard is trying to lead reluctant horses to water and admonishing him (usually) to drink from a despoiled pond.

Good luck turning the clock back.
Posted by trade215, Tuesday, 7 February 2006 5:39:39 PM
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So true Trade, but it is not so much women that dread the “D” word, so I’m wondering when us men will collectively realise how damaging marriage is under the current terms. The women of course, continue to plan their next wedding as we speak, and unfortunately just as many, their divorce.
Posted by Seeker, Tuesday, 7 February 2006 9:53:28 PM
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I see the usual amount of women bashing in a few of the comments who have been done over by their ex partners emotionally and financially. I was loyal for 10 years of hell from an abusive insecure husband that had no control over his temper.
I left becuase i knew that i would probabaly die in that relationship not a physical death but a spiritual death. And what was I showing my 3 girls if i had stayed?, not loyality.
Im one of those women who did not financially ruin my exhusband or take the kids off him.
I gave him the house valued at $450000 and took a settlement of 50,000 over 5 years. I also agree to him having the children 50% of time because he cried outside the court and i believed him.
8 draining years later and 3 more family court final orders he is more angry manuipulative and dangerous to the kids with a string of broken contravention orders VRO orders.
He spends his life plotting how to get back at us which we can deal with. The children say he nevers stops talking about it to everyone they meet.He has ruined his relationship with his 3 daughters and he is so bitter and twisted that he cannot see it.

The point im trying to make is the gaps in the laws are always there and always will be there. Maybe its just Karma and I owed this man Karma from a past life maybe i did to him what he is doing to me now. And according to the laws of Karma one must suffer inorder to pay off the debt.
Really thats the only way I can accept this because I have tried with all my heart and strength to help this man.
What this mess lead us to is a spiritual path called Falun Gong which has given us understanding to the universal laws of Truth compassion and tolerance and for that Im very grateful and thankful to him for.
Posted by Jana Banana, Wednesday, 8 February 2006 6:36:01 PM
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Nothing like a bit of alleged 'woman bashing' to bring out the thinly veiled 'man bashers.'

How compassionate and understanding. Well done.

The point is,of course, that notwithstanding the odd occasional role reveral in terms of people's experience of divorce and the family law shytstem... the deck is firmly stacked. Half the players get to see your cards. Half the players get handicapped when they sit at the table. The dealer doesnt generally apply the same rules to the players and the payouts are different depending on whether you are the 'primary' babysitter, er l mean caregiver and nurturer, or not.

Simple reason for this is a well worn, tried and true absolute truth of parenthood... mother knows best (wots best for HER and the kids.) Just ask her, she will tell you all about it.

Ooops, maybe l shouldnt have said it. The karma police are now knocking at the door.
Posted by trade215, Friday, 17 February 2006 2:29:46 PM
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Jana Banana

Thank you for your post - I too escaped from a manipulative and psychotic husband. Fortunately, for me, I did not have children. I realised that to bring children into such a bad relationship would be suicide for me and just plain cruel for any children.

It took me eight years to get up enough courage to leave. But I finally managed.

The first time my husband struck me to the floor was the time he lost any right to loyalty. Shame on me for not leaving him then.

Loyalty takes both sides to participate. It is not loyalty to stay in an abusive relationship out of fear.
Posted by Scout, Saturday, 18 February 2006 8:37:54 AM
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My ex too, escaped from the dungeons of her mind. No such luck for her fellow captives. Our loyalty continues to be forcibly extracted after so many years.
Posted by Seeker, Saturday, 18 February 2006 9:29:12 AM
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I had been loyal to my proffesional husband for past 29 years,committed to marriage and the family.Lately just discovered that my husband is actually an excellent manipulator in business as well as with me,a real shock to my system.I am so disilusioned with such a word loyalty in relationship.
Posted by silence1, Wednesday, 14 June 2006 10:45:13 PM
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