The National Forum   Donate   Your Account   On Line Opinion   Forum   Blogs   Polling   About   
The Forum - On Line Opinion's article discussion area



Syndicate
RSS/XML


RSS 2.0

Main Articles General

Sign In      Register

The Forum > Article Comments > Men make a meal of household equality > Comments

Men make a meal of household equality : Comments

By Nicholas Gruen, published 20/1/2006

Nicholas Gruen examines the division of labour in households between the sexes.

  1. Pages:
  2. 1
  3. 2
  4. 3
  5. ...
  6. 10
  7. 11
  8. 12
  9. All
The difference between men and women is that women do things which are there to be done, men do things which have to be done.

It's a matter of tolerance.

I'll iron a shirt every morning before work if I have to and iron the kis clothes as they need them. My wife prefers to iron everything at once so there is no "mess" in the laundry. I don't mind messy laundries.

I will also tolerate unmade beds, but not overcooked food - that's why I do most of the cooking.

t.u.s.
Posted by the usual suspect, Friday, 20 January 2006 8:42:34 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
What an accurate examination you have made, Nicholas. Thankyou! It is an obvious fact that women do much more work around the house than men. I am bracing myself now for the onslaught you will no doubt receive, by men claiming they do more 'outside' of the house. I'm sure they like to think they do.

The truth is, both inside AND outside of the house women do in fact do more. Why? Because they've had to. I have long believed that female laborers, politicians, athletes etc have had to work so much harder in order to make their way in a patriarchal society governed mostly by the laws and economy of old, balding men.

Yes it's true, women have traditionally been relegated to the passenger seat of the family car (even though women are more cautious, better drivers), the glamorous accessory at business meetings, the sideshow cheerleaders as the big buffoon male footy players take the stage with a high salary to go with it.

My sincere apologies go to the women who do not fit the roles I have described. My even more sincere apologies to the women who do.
Posted by tubley, Friday, 20 January 2006 9:43:25 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
I found that my husband and I did pretty much equal amounts of housework up until the children arrived. As I stayed home to care for the little ones it made sense that I managed the house and garden too. However once I found a part-time job I discovered that he quite liked the existing arrangement and guess what my share of the housework and childcare remained the same (ie. nearly all of it).

I have however found a partial solution. With the children at home for the holidays combined with lots of rainy days where we have stayed indoors the house is a tip. I have claimed it is a complete waste of time even trying to clean up and lo and behold my darling husband thinks we need a cleaner! So ladies if you want to make a difference just go on strike for a few weeks - it is worth putting up with the mess and some not at all pleasant smells. I just need a solution that persuades him that he could also leave work earlier to pick up the children from after schoolcare. I am not sure that forgetting to do that will work quite as well.
Posted by sajo, Friday, 20 January 2006 11:03:45 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
I don't know what other people do, but I've been a full time house husband for the past 5 years. My wife still works outside the home. I still think she was much better in the domestic role than I am.

She agrees with me!
Posted by Leigh, Friday, 20 January 2006 11:16:41 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Tubley - when it comes to all paid and unpaid work - men and women do roughly the same. About 65 hours each a week. Just because in many houses this split may include the man working 45 hours paid work to pay the mortgage, doesn't mean he is not pulling his weight.

This debate about men and women doing the housework is pointless. Marriage is a partnership and in most stable ones you will find the whole running of the house would be split fairly evenly. If your man doesn't pull his weight, leave him and move in with a woman.

Although then who will you complain about?

As for your suggestions that women have had to work harder in business, sport etc. What utter nonsense. That is an insult to all people who have worked hard to get where they are. So many chips on your shoulder.

To save everyone time I will devise a list of the most evil groups people in the world, each group more evil than the last.

1:Men
2: White Men
3: White Heterosexual Men
4: White Heterosexual Men who eat Meat
5: White Heteorsexual Men who eat Meat which their wife has cooked for them.

Feel free to add to the list. alhtough I cannot think of anyone more evil than the last group.

t.u.s.
Posted by the usual suspect, Friday, 20 January 2006 11:24:43 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Ummm tus while I realise you were probably being sarcastic… my husband is a white hetereosexual man who eats meat that his wife has cooked for him… but I’m pretty sure he’s not evil. In fact he is not racist, he is queer friendly and he is nice to vegetarians (like me!) so I’ll have to stand up for him and say you are wrong. We earn the same amount of money and do the same amount of housework. We just do different things and luckily we prefer different things eg. he does the dishes, vaccuming, lawnmowing etc while I do the cooking, folding washing, cleaning the toilet etc. We know that loving eachother is more important than worrying about the housework anyway – housework will always be there and it’s not that important! I'm not going to die thinking, "I wish I did more housework"...
Posted by Pedant, Friday, 20 January 2006 2:24:02 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
ok...

6. The usual suspect
Posted by tubley, Friday, 20 January 2006 3:56:43 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Potentially Useful Disclaimer: I am a divorcee (don’t you just love the way that word sounds and feels?).

Now, as for any man who doesn’t accept that he isn’t pulling his weight: just imagine we waved a magic wand, and turn him into the woman we speak of, whom, even in the 21st century:

- ends up doing more of the domestic chores than her husband/partner
- gets paid less for the same work/job than a man does
- is under-represented in public life and in society’s power positions
- was for a large part of history denied access and equality
- even today is in many places expected to be a ‘saint in the kitchen and a sinner in the bedroom’

Don’t get me wrong, I’m not necessarily saying that being pro-fem is the only politically or practically correct position. Let me risk being provocative by saying that perhaps those who would argue the case that women already get fair treatment should walk a few miles in their shoes first.

And Now, A Word For Our Female Readers:

- men die younger
- men (insert your preferred percentage here) probably don’t enjoy their life as much as women do. Note male jail rates, suicide/addiction rates, mental health rates, estrangement from their children, etc
- men (insert your preferred percentage here) probably don’t receive the emotional and societal support and understanding that women do
- men (insert your preferred percentage here) often in the end find society’s expectations of them to be unfulfilling

And thus, similarly, were she given the chance, I’m not sure that every woman would be in a rush to enjoy the so-called perks of being a man either.

So, we each have our figurative cross to bear.

Time we all focussed on making sure we all, each and every one of us, enjoy our short stay on Planet Confused?
Posted by When_The_Going_Gets_Weird, Friday, 20 January 2006 4:14:17 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
aren't there more important issues with regard to gender issues, than who does the housework? For the wives and female spouses.... if he's a lazy, chauvanistic bastard, get rid of him. In this day and age there are plenty of guys who cook and clean ie do their fair share.
Surely issues of domestic violence, family breakdown, custody issues, etc are far more worthwhile discussion points.
Posted by silent minority, Friday, 20 January 2006 4:59:31 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Well its like this... Women seem fussier then men when it comes to housework. Seeing they know exactly how it should be, perhaps best to just let them get on with it :)
Posted by Yabby, Friday, 20 January 2006 4:59:39 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Why not let families organise themselves as they see fit? Why must femocrats insist on trying to control how families deal with the tasks of domestic living?

"Domestic labour" cannot be treated as normal labour - though in it men and women come nearly equal. Children partake in "domestic labour" yet not normal labour, and I would recommend to all the femocrats complaining about having to fold the socks... get the kids to do it, they make a game out of it, and later on you can use an allowance to rope in this child labour on a regular basis.

Something of intrest... in households where men are doing more work, the next logical task for them to take from women has been the cooking, as it suits our nature most... it's a more clearly defined "job" than cleaning is... much like fixing something or watering the garden. Unfortunately for women, cooking is a creative and fulfulling exercise, and quite enjoyable. Its satisfaction is more than ironing or folding. Some of my friends' mothers now complain that their husbands have started cooking to help out around the house, not because they can't cook - au contrair - but because they can't iron, fold and clean to a passable standard.
Posted by DFXK, Friday, 20 January 2006 6:05:33 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
My husband is pretty much perfect...... He believes that vacuuming and mopping etc., is heavy work and should be done by the men.....Of course I would have to agree.
Posted by Jolanda, Friday, 20 January 2006 7:14:53 PM
Find out more about this user Visit this user's webpage Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
My husband thinks I can't iron shirts. ;)
Then again he does a good job making out that he can't find anything!

I guess it all averages out in the end. There really are more important things to worry about.
Posted by sajo, Friday, 20 January 2006 7:28:58 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Work is 'work', that's why they pay you! The "Nappy change"
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
This article falls into the feminist trap of talking only about 'housework'. What about 'work-work?

Australian fathers do 23hrs a week more work-work than mothers (ABS). Put another way "Fathers work an average of 47 hours per week and 33% reported working over 50 hours per week. A significant number of fathers experienced high levels of stress, insufficient time for family and believed strongly that the major barrier to being an effective parent was commitment to paid work. 68% of fathers said they did not spend enough time with their children. (Federal FACS study "Fitting fathers into families" 1999)

I don't care about house-work and work-work, I just want it to be fair. Australian dads do the lions share of all work, especially when you include unpaid overtime, commuting to a distant 'career' job, preparing that submission or doing quotes on weekends...

Young Australians, men and women work similar hours and women probably get paid more (I can reference this). But once Australians become parents, it all changes. Australian mothers have the luxury of taking the "nappy change" while their husbands are left to pay for it all... suddenly instead of being a DINK, they have two dependants and still the mortgage has to be paid.

Tragically, while Australian mothers take the "nappy change" and never work seriously again, Australian men actually INCREASE their working hours once they become fathers!

I just want it to be fair... Dads do all the work!

(PS I have recently pulled together the numbers from the ABS on this. Full-time-workers-by-gender-and-age, full-time-workers-by-gender-and-marital-status-over-the-last-decade, etc. It's true! Australian women have a baby and never work seriously again. Australian fathers work massive hours and their children miss out.

I'm happy to forward you this reseach if you are interested. PartTimeParent@yahoo.com.au
Posted by partTimeParent, Friday, 20 January 2006 9:58:45 PM
Find out more about this user Visit this user's webpage Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
I am female, do 80% work around the house, look after all the finances, work longer hours and earn the higher salary.

According to my husband he does half the housework. I suggested that cooking and washing up alone was more time than he spent doing weekly chores to which he replied. Cooking isn't housework.

I have tried to come to terms with the reality that I have higher standards than he has so either I live like he did in his batchelor days (a pig sty) or just put up and shut up.
Posted by Verdant, Saturday, 21 January 2006 9:26:53 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Verdant

He must have some redeeming qualities or consider giving him the flick.

partTimeParent

Again the quality of your writing stands out. Certainly above West's.

While Nicholas writes well his generalisations do not cover my situation.

I'm a specialist house-husband (and writer on intelligence issues).

I do 80% of the housework and 80% of the cooking (Chinese, Italian, Indian - I get good reviews).

While my partner potters in the garden one hour a week she lets me mow several hours a week when I'm not painting the roof.

This arrangement works well. I do my bit because I recognise that my partner works long hours (as a physio) earning most of the money.

I don't accept theories that women can innately cook and clean better.

Pete
Posted by plantagenet, Saturday, 21 January 2006 4:40:08 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
A great comment by Pedant..."We know that loving each other is more important than worrying about the housework anyway"

In other words this things only become an issue when people lose sight of the bigger picture or become selfish.

For the "Pru Goward bloc" love is an equal number of dishes washed. Its sad isn't it?
Posted by Atman, Saturday, 21 January 2006 9:40:48 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Well partTimeParent it proves there are correct and incorrect statistics even at the ABS.

I wonder how they determined those results... Did blokes fill out the survey... and how do you verify those sort of statistics.

As a father who does all the cooking and helps earn the family income I must be a poor speciman of a male.

My wife would easily do 80% of the housework and is at least equal with the work-work, oh and the taking care of the kids as well. Also time at work is not a reasonable assessment. In all the work situations I ever saw it's the women who do the best most efficient work.

Ask an insurance agent when doing life insurance who generally is the most valuable asset to a family and it is almost always the woman by at least 30%.

If you truly believe what those ABS statistics are saying then go visit a mate ... and watch all the things the woman of the house does whilst you are chatting. They usually don't stop!

If the ABS statistics reflect you and plantagenet as males then I dips my hat to both of you, you're wives got the best blokes on the block... You both are in the top 2% of males in the housework stakes ....but perhaps both your missus' might like to tell us what they think...lol

Just to be fair...lol!

Now I hope this isn't taken as sexist but there may be something innate about women's skills but from my observations they are usually hard learnt. In my family my brother and I did virtually nothing whilst the sisters had to help our mother clean the house. In most families that I have ever seen the girls are trained from a very early age usually by their mothers to clean and cook.

Domestic blindness is usually a male condition in most houses I see. I suffer it - so again you guys beat me there too.
Posted by Opinionated2, Saturday, 21 January 2006 9:44:32 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
"He must have some redeeming qualities or consider giving him the flick"

Pete, I think that perhaps you understand women alot less then you
think that you do :)

Alot of the time, women don't actually want solutions, they just want commiseration. There are good reasons for women getting together with other women, to tell each other how they feel...
Posted by Yabby, Saturday, 21 January 2006 10:13:47 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Correct

Most men are pigs when it comes to housework, they are lazy and don't care.

My wife is an invalid, well, she is invalid, in probably both senses of the word, suffering from a range of physical and psychiatric conditions, and she likes it that way, it gives her an excuse not to do anything except watch TV all day.

That is okay, I can deal with that, as I can do the housework including all the washing, cooking, ironing, shopping, cleaning, feeding the cat and all the rest.

We have been blessed by not having children

And by the way, I work full time as well.

At one stage I was working three and a half days a week and studying full time too

But what I find it difficult to handle is her criticism of the way that I do the housework, of the quality and quantity. She compares my standard of housework to her mother, and my step mother, neither of whom worked full time.

So, am I a damned failure as a houseworker? Probably.

And am I a failure as a husband? Well she thinks so.

Am I a failure as a 'man', well probably, because, (as the police who call when she rings 000 when she has 'panic attacks' [ie doesn't get her own way], say they they would not have put up with her) I should have left her years ago.

But then, who would do the housework?
Posted by Hamlet, Saturday, 21 January 2006 11:00:34 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Beware of statistics as they don't tell the whole story. 1 + 1 sometimes equals 3, qualitative research on this issue is the way to go, forget working with numbers and start working with people!
Posted by tubley, Saturday, 21 January 2006 11:42:25 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
The research probably did find that it was not of great issue within a household to the quantity each particular individual did.

The female head of the house knows that if you want a good job done, you should do it yourself.

The females role within the family and especially with children is a 24/7 job.

The envy is that the male roles has tradition drawing the line in the sand after 8 hours work, stuck in a time zone behind the realities.

With interest is the rational of ten minutes work, ten minutes rest. I've got to hand it to you.
Posted by Suebdootwo, Saturday, 21 January 2006 11:55:28 PM
Find out more about this user Visit this user's webpage Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Opinionated2

Thanks for your praise of my efforts and your confession.

My female partner resents your position and reference to "missus".

Its not that your sexist, mate, but you put women on a pedestal.

Yabby

Yes I was a bit unfair to the man concerned.

Your right. A woman can seek commiseration by blogging on OLO or "getting together with other women, to tell each other how they feel... ".

What place would a male partner have in this process of communication?

Pete
Posted by plantagenet, Sunday, 22 January 2006 12:10:24 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Hi Plantagenet,

Please apologise to your partner for my use of the word Missus.... I was just being Aussie and I meant no offence whatsoever.

I'm not sure that I put women on pedistals as I have seen some shockers too in my time. I would say my views are fairly realistic. My experience is that in most cases women are better workers than men and that they do far more around the house in most relationships.

Again my sample is limited to people I know and whom I have witnessed in these areas
Posted by Opinionated2, Sunday, 22 January 2006 1:03:43 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
I think Nick Gruen's balance was about right; he must be the archetypical "on the one hand this, on the other hand that" economist. And my memory from a long-ago dinner is that he's a vegetarian.

I must confess that my wife carries more of the load than me, besides having provided great support through my several years of serious illness. But we get along, that's the main thing.

In my defence, when I changed schools at age 12 I sought to do the domestic science rather than woodwork class, but was prevented by gender bias. Perhaps my wife is bearing the long term costs of that sexist decision ...
Posted by Faustino, Sunday, 22 January 2006 1:46:58 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Household labour is really all about how we negotiate the terms of the relationship we have with our partners.
I do the cooking, shopping , and most of the childcare of our infant son and our school age daughter. But my partner does do more cleaning than I do . How ever this works for us and that is the important thing . We have worked out a division of labour by explicitly negotiating who does what and when it gets done .
I will agree with a previous comment that men and women see the importance of cleaning tasks differently . My partner gets very distressed with a level of mess and disorder that I can easily live with and that is the reason that she does more cleaning than I do .
Posted by Iain, Sunday, 22 January 2006 3:57:06 PM
Find out more about this user Visit this user's webpage Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
No worries Opinionated2

My partner is a forgiving woman (Thank Christ! For I'd be a dead man by now).

Re "...Aussie". She's kiwi born (and of Scottish blood) so you can realise the vast risk of cultural and linguistic misunderstandings from people of that warrior caste.

Yes, I agree that in most cases women are better workers than men and that they do far more around the house in most relationships.

What's been referred to as the "nappy change" (by others - and it sounds derogatory) undoes the chances of reaching senior positions for many woman from what I've seen. Just being a year out of circulation in a company makes a difference in advancement prospects - and reinforces the misconceptions company management that women are particularly biologically driven.

There are few stats on this nuanced subject and even stats can lie - so we do indeed need to rely on our own experiences.

Regards

Pete
Posted by plantagenet, Sunday, 22 January 2006 5:05:22 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
I think the fact that we have enough time to post on OLO shows that our partners are probably taking on most of the work ;)
Posted by justin86, Monday, 23 January 2006 12:48:34 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
i am happily married with four children here is a typical hot 40 degrees day i work most afternoons;
6am - baby wakes up i make toast and bottle try to sleep for another hour while baby talks to me - husband sleeps soundly
7am - wake up, shower, dress myself and baby
7.30am - wake remaining children up feed and dress find lost objects - my children are not morning people u could imagine.
8.am - husband gets up and gets himself ready for work while talking to me about his proposed day.
8.30am husband goes to work (airconditioned office) i load & drive kids to school nice hot car, 3 different classes the same time.
9.15am get home clean up from morning make beds care for baby start washing
11.00am baby naps i pay bills make phone calls etc
11.30am wake baby pick up 1 from school come home make lunch get ready for work, baby sitter arrives i go to work by 12.30
3.pm leave work pick up kids go home (still hot)
the rest of the afternoon is after school snacks, homework,washing etc
5.pm husband comes home plays the computer i do baths, dinner then we both read with the kids finally they go to bed then it's my time, after cleaning up of course, my husband feeds the dogs makes a bottle to help me I go to bed usually by 11pm.
Saturdays is relaxation day nothing is done & Sunday is clean up from Saturday and our social day.The ages of my children are 6,5,4 & 1.5. I would love to hear a better soulution oh I have a gardner mow the lawns gardening is not my husbands forte. He likes my cooking he is a white hetrosexual man who eats whatever I cook him - otherwise he might go hungry - unless of coarse he is feeling inventive and cooks, We have had take out twice this fortnight lucky me. But we are a partnership, but yes I would agree that women do most of the work well in my situation anyway.:-)
Posted by joobeky, Monday, 23 January 2006 1:30:03 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
I would agree that a partnership is equal I think we all have our flaws and that we can irritate each other.

I also agree that women do do most of the domestic work _ I am a qualified domestic engineer.

My flaw would be that I'm a clean freak!

I can not tolerate mess and disorder whereas my husband can.

He is quite content to let the kids try and kill each other make science experiments in the kitchen, re-arrange their bedrooms or dressup the dogs oh and leave the dinner dishes to the next morning.

Whereas I would like to see my children grow up I dont like opening the fridge to find cofee, cordial, milk and leftovers mixed togeather after a few days, It takes more time to get the children to actually clean their rooms than to mess it, I know the dogs dont like wearing clothes, shoes or makeup (they have told me this) and have you ever tried to wash a sauce and mashed potato covered plate the next day - again it takes quite as long.
Posted by joobeky, Monday, 23 January 2006 1:58:19 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
joobeky. There really isn't too much wrong with what you have set out except your husband should be getting up at 7.00 a.m, to mind the baby whilst you have a shower and he should then be waking up the children and getting them out of bed and helping with the dressing instead of staying in bed until 8.00 a.m.

In the afternoon he should also be helping you with bathing of the children and the cleaning up after dinner.

That would make it a better partnership. But then again if you are happily married and you have put that routine in place and accept it, then there is no problem!

You have to manage husbands that don’t do it off their own back and designate activities to them and you must do it in a way that ensures that they believe that it will benefit the relationship and be worth their while.

My husband is a firm believer of “If wife is happy – everybody is happy
Posted by Jolanda, Monday, 23 January 2006 7:41:48 AM
Find out more about this user Visit this user's webpage Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
I’m new to this and interested in what everyone has said. To me, it's simple - there is an order in families, in place for as long as humans have walked the earth and this order determines who does what and how families function. Ignore or misunderstand the order, change it or justify the change with differing theories and the result is varying degrees of dysfunctionality, not just between men and women but also amongst children within families for a couple of generations to come, if not longer.

This statement I make first from my own experience and secondly as a family constellation advocate/practitioner. Family constellation work puts forward an ‘order’ within families and helps sort through the entanglements within it in past and current generations, so that future generations live as much 'tangle-free' as possible.

In a nutshell, men are the heads of families who first and foremost love and accept their women, women love and accept their men and together, nurture themselves and then their children, in the order that they are born (first, second, third, etc) – this includes housework and all things we complain about men not doing. If these places are maintained as defined, albeit through fine balancing and understanding, then things run relatively smooth. Problem is, we often take on place in our family where we don't belong, adopting the attributes of a place which is not ours and then struggle through life to keep up, at great personal and emotional cost.

There is a huge body of work behind my humble opinion, which is far too long to explain in one go. Nevertheless, I agree that there is truth in every comment posted which indicates people’s diverse experiences. I believe, though, that the argument is not about equality - it's about equity and finding an equitable balance within the family order. Check out www.constellationflow.com.au & Bert Hellinger’s work and please consider.
Posted by Bea, Monday, 23 January 2006 2:52:31 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Solutions for women (who want to cut their portion of housework):

Marry down.

"In her 1995 book, Kidding Ourselves: Babies, Breadwinning and Bargaining Power, Rhona Mahoney recommended finding a sharing spouse by marrying younger or poorer, or someone in a dependent status, like a starving artist. Because money is such a marker of status and power, it’s hard to persuade women to marry poorer. So here’s an easier rule: Marry young or marry much older. Younger men are potential high-status companions. Much older men are sufficiently established so that they don’t have to work so hard, and they often have enough money to provide unlimited household help. By contrast, slightly older men with bigger incomes are the most dangerous, but even a pure counterpart is risky. If you both are going through the elite-job hazing rituals simultaneously while having children, someone is going to have to give. Even the most devoted lawyers with the hardest-working nannies are going to have weeks when no one can get home other than to sleep. The odds are that when this happens, the woman is going to give up her ambitions and professional potential." http://www.prospect.org/web/page.ww?section=root&name=ViewWeb&articleId=10659
Posted by strayan, Monday, 23 January 2006 5:12:10 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
joobeky, stop doing all that work in and around the home. If you your husband doesn't pick up the slack, get rid of him.

"If women never start playing the household-manager role, the house will be dirty, but the realities of the physical world will trump the pull of gender ideology. Either the other adult in the family will take a hand or the children will grow up with robust immune systems." http://www.prospect.org/web/page.ww?section=root&name=ViewWeb&articleId=10659

I fall into the White male carnivore catergory. The biggest mistake I made was letting my mother read the above article. Last weekend when I invited my new girlfriend over, who do you think ended up cleaning the house?
Posted by strayan, Monday, 23 January 2006 5:30:10 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
The 'cleaning wars' is a euphemism for the gender wars. The whole cleaning thing is just smoke screen for personal power trips.

Ever notice how it usually women who complain about mens lack of cleaning? Gee, wot a surprise.

Ever notice its women who define standards of cleanliness? Gee, wot a surprise.

Ever notice that setting thr standard is just a way of making the rules? And making rules is all about POWER. Why do the rule makers complain? Because they have no way to enforce them, aside from emotional and sexual games which tend to be very damaging to relationships.

Ever notice how women use the whole cleaning power trip to essentially chastise a man? Gee wot a surprise. Hmmm, have you ladies stopped to consider that when you berate a hard working man for not cleaning you are invalidating him and his contribution? Have you stopped to cinsider that its quite offensive to men to be actively and overtly UNAPPRECIATED? Ever wounder how men get frustrated when you make everything about you and your needs, all the time, every time?

Why is it a man can live for 10 yrs on 1 hr of housework a week and not die of malnitrition or infection, yet when he marries, all of a sudden 2 hr daily routine become essential to survival?

Ever heard of the managerial economics theory that says time taken to complete a task will expand to fill the time alloted to it? Pading out the time is a way to validate one's contribution. Its rife in the paid workforce, so its doubtful that it doesnt also permeate household chores. Ask your men folk about how people pad out their work days, he will tell you all about it.
Posted by trade215, Monday, 23 January 2006 7:58:28 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Anecdotally,
a female relative recently made a big dog and pony show of how busy her day was cleaning out a spare room. She was very exagerated about it, actually pausing to exhale during the telling like she had just moved a heavy weight. Expalined in great detail every aspect of the process. l had a look at the wor and frankly, it looked like a 3hr spring cleaning job, rather than a 2 day bender.

You ask a woman whow just decorated the interior of a newly built house what she's been up to and she gives you a very detailed break down of the trivial minateau of the process.

You ask a man who finished building the house what he's been up to and he will generally say 'built a house'.

Power games folks. Nothing more nothing less. Us dumbass men can smell those at 500 faces with hay fever and a chili stuck in one nostril.
Posted by trade215, Monday, 23 January 2006 7:58:52 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Bea that’s a good system – except if you’re on the bottom! The web link you give is not current but one of the seems the main rules of the family constellation flow you advocate is “there is a hierarchy in terms of birth order - those born first come first - parents give and children receive”. This doesn’t sound fair to me (and I am the first born child). Who’d want to be a third child? Or an eighth child? What if I said “women are the heads of families who first and foremost love and accept their men, men love and accept their women and together, nurture themselves and then their children, in the reverse order that they are born (third, second, first, etc)”? Why can’t men and women love and accept each other and together nurture their children (without turning the family into a caste system!)?

Here’s something I’ve been thinking about… economically, it may make sense for a man having a child in a second relationship (but the first child of the woman in that relationship) to work less and look after the child of his second relationship rather than paying child support for the child of his first relationship while also having to support the woman to work less and look after the child of the second relationship… what does everyone else think?
Posted by Pedant, Monday, 23 January 2006 8:00:54 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Sorry Bea but whilst I can see some merit in what you are saying I have to agree with Pedant on this one.

Also I think that making "the man" the head of the household just because of gender has a major floor in it... he mightn't be the "best person for the job".

To say that anything other than your outline creates a level of dysfunctionality is hardly a humble opinion. All relationships are dysfunctional to a degree and promoting the man to head honcho won't always fix that. I'd rethink your "man's the boss" argument Bea.

I love "modern woman" they have so much more to offer the world than the old subserviant model you propose. I say this jokingly ... but did the head of your family give you permission to type your theory here?

Why does someone have to be the boss in any relationship... it seems we never learn!

See ladies there is a "glass ceiling" even in relationships and under Bea's model the glass is virtually unbreakable but if you do actually break it "you" make the family unstable and dysfunctional.

Apparently it's always been the woman's fault and still is.. Ha!
Posted by Opinionated2, Monday, 23 January 2006 11:58:11 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Nicholas

Thank you for your article. Sorry, until now I did not find it at all rivetting - until I started to read posters' responses. How interesting.

Bea

I cannot believe that you believe, what you have written. A "boss" or a "head" in a relationship? Ugh? My husband and I have an equitable and equal relationship. We make all household decisions together. We share all household decisions. We discuss all minor and major decisions. Why not? I am no better than him, and he is no better than me. We are a team.

Even so, we also make independent decisions. For example: if I go out shopping and buy some clothes for both of us, I do so without my husband's "permission". Likewise, if he goes out and buys some new carpentry tools or some new fishing rods (for us), he does not ask my permission.

We base everything on mutual respect and trust. Surely that is what healthy relationships are all about? In 10 years of marriage we have never had occasion to challenge each other's judgement.

I do the cooking and housework because I love doing it. I do the gardening because I love doing it. My husband does the carpentry and house maintenance because he loves doing it.

I ask and it gets done. He asks and it gets done. Simple really.

Cheers
Kay
Posted by kalweb, Tuesday, 24 January 2006 8:04:19 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Opinionated2 wrote:

"Why does someone have to be the boss in any relationship..."

A woman can easily say that, every man knows otherwise:

Quote:

Rules Of Engagement

The base of every relationship are the rules. You obey them and you stay in the zone; you break them and you are out of the zone. I know all female readers are agreeing with me and all male readers are confused. So, let's talk about The Rules.

1. The Female always makes The Rules.

2. The Rules are subject to change without notice.

3. No Male can possibly know all The Rules

4. If the Female suspects the Male knows all The Rules, she must immediately change some of The Rules.

5. The Female is never wrong.

6. If it appears the Female is wrong, it is because of a flagrant misunderstanding caused by something the Male did or said wrong.

7. If Rule #6 applies, the Male must apologize immediately for causing the misunderstanding.

8. The Female can change her mind at any time.

9. The Male must never change his mind without the express, written consent of The Female.

10. The Female has every right to be angry or upset at any time.

11. The Male must remain calm at all times, unless the Female wants him to be angry or upset.

12. The Female must, under no circumstances, let the Male know whether she wants him to be angry or upset.

13. The Male is expected to read the mind of the Female at all times.

14. At all times, what is important is what the Female meant, not what she said.

15. If the Male doesn't abide by The Rules, it is because he can't take the heat, lacks backbone, and is a wimp.

16. If the Female has PMS, all The Rules are null and void and the Male must cater to her every whim.

17. Any attempt to document The Rules could result in bodily harm.

18. If the Male, at any time, believes he is right, he must refer to Rule #5.

Unquote.
Posted by Hamlet, Tuesday, 24 January 2006 9:20:58 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Hamlet, I'm guessing that your last post is mostly in good humour and from what I know of your circumstances an element of truth. I've seen the list before and recognised most of the rules as being ones I was expected to live by. It is nice to be able to laugh about it.

On the other hand there is a similar list which I can't find a copy of at the moment which some women would recognise for similar reasons. The rules a woman has to live by when she gets a self seeking controlling partner and while generally simpler than the rules for men they are just as heartbreaking if you have to live by them.

Thanks for bringing some humor to the discussion and if anybody has a copy of the "rules for women" I'd enjoy seeing it up here as well. Both are relevant to the topic.

Cheers
R0bert
Posted by R0bert, Tuesday, 24 January 2006 9:34:08 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
PART 1 - just for you R0bert
RULES THAT GUYS WISH THAT GIRLS KNEW

1. If you think you're fat, you probably are. Don't ask us.
2. Learn to work the toilet seat: if it's up put it down.
3. Don't cut your hair. Ever.
4. Birthdays, Valentines, and Anniversaries are not quests to see if he can find the perfect present, again!
5. If you ask a question you don't want an answer to, expect an answer you don't want to hear.
6. Sometimes, he's not thinking about you.Live with it.
7. Don't ask him what he's thinking about unless you are prepared to discuss such topics as navel lint, the shotgun formation and monster trucks.
8. Get rid of your cat. And no, it's not different, it's just like every other cat.
9. Dogs are better than ANY cats. Period.
10. Sunday = Sports. It's like the full moon or the changing of the tides. Let it be.
11. Shopping is not sport.
12. Anything you wear is fine. Really.
13. You have enough clothes.
14. You have too many shoes.
15. Crying is blackmail. Use it if you must, but don't expect us to like it.
16. Your brother is an idiot, your ex-boyfriend is an idiot and your Dad probably is too.
17. Ask for what you want. Subtle hints don't work.
18. No, he doesn't know what day it is. He never will. Mark anniversaries on a calendar.
19. Yes, pissing standing up is more difficult than peeing from point blank range. We're bound to miss sometimes.
20. Most guys own two to three pairs of shoes-what makes you think we'd be any good at choosing which pair, out of thirty, would look good with your dress?
21. Yes and No are perfectly acceptable answers.
22. A headache that lasts for 17 months is a problem. See a doctor.
23. Your Mom doesn't have to be our best friend.
24. Foreign films are best left to foreigners.
Posted by Scout, Wednesday, 25 January 2006 7:17:49 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Part 2

25. Check your oil.
26. Don't give us 50 rules when 25 will do.
27. Don't fake it. We'd rather be ineffective than deceived.
28. It is neither in your best interest nor ours to take the quiz together.
29. Anything we said 6 or 8 months ago is inadmissible in an argument. All comments become null and void after 7 days.
30. If you don't dress like the Victoria's Secret girls, don't expect us to act like soap opera guys.
31. If something we said can be interpreted two ways, and one of the ways makes you sad and angry, we meant the other one.
32. Let us ogle. If we don't look at other women, how can we know how pretty you are?
33. Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out.
34. You can either ask us to do something OR tell us how you want it done - not both.
35. Whenever possible, please say whatever you have to say during commercials.
36. Christopher Columbus didn't need directions, and neither do we.
37. Women wearing Wonderbras and low-cut blouses lose their right to complain about having their boobs stared at.
38. Consider Golf a mini-vacation from you. We need it, just like you do.
39. Telling us that the models in the men's magazines are airbrushed makes you look jealous and petty and it's certainly not going to deter us from reading the magazines.
40. The relationship is never going to be like it was the first two months we were going out.
41. Anyone can buy condoms.

Hope you all get a laugh or two. (The views expressed by the rules are not necessarily those of the management - moi)

Dianne
Posted by Scout, Wednesday, 25 January 2006 7:53:19 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Interesting comparison of 'the rules'. One set is overwhelmingly about behaviour, the other is about attitude.

The men's set of rules for women are well codified and explicit, and in many cases don't even contain a rule, just a statement of fact.

The rules exist like the rules of a sport, so that participants can enjoy playing the game to the limits of the rules. They are also more like common law, which restricts certain behaviour whilst letting all other non-prohibited activities are allowed. In this situation there are no 'bosses', just rulemakers and the game is played accordingly.

However the 'other' set of rules is less tangible. They seek to leave the rules open to change by the players whilst in the middle of the game. Can anyone imagine any other field of human activity where once an activity has commenced one side, and only one side, can arbitrarily change the rules, laws or regulations without the other side's consent?

Just in female / male relationships, and it is only the woman who is allowed to change the rules.
Posted by Hamlet, Wednesday, 25 January 2006 8:26:46 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Here is the condensed set of true rules...

1. Rules are made to be broken
2. A ruler without enforcement ability is an emperor without clothes
3. You can only make rules IF you can get someone to PLAY
4. Those subjugated by the rules can always vote with their feet
5. Rulers who become totalitarian end up yelling into the void

Learn to love and respect each other and forget about power trips.
Posted by trade215, Wednesday, 25 January 2006 8:11:15 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
One rule of engagement and also a fact left off the list that my nanna taught me from a young age is;

We (females) never NAG - If you did it the first time we would not have to ask again!

Male and females (Husbands & Wives)are like big handbags the difference is that the male handbag is made up of compartments - one compartment for work, one for each kid one for the wife one for the mates one for the parents in law, one for breakfast, one for lunch, one for tea, and one for sex where as the female handbag consists of one big compartment - let me explain.
If we have a fight at breakfast - the husband amazingly closes that compartment and opens the next being work after work he simply closes that compartment and opens the next - that night he may decide to open the sex compartment and be calling us in a sweet voice from the bedroom - because we(ladies) have everything stored in one big compartment we have to sometimes dig to the bottom to find what u want and will find things on the way,keep in mind we may not have cleaned out our bags for a while and find things left there from last week. So the way you treat us at breakfast wheather it be today or yesterday has a great deal to do with how we respond to you that night or when u get home. You cant tell us that we look fat in the morning in that dress even if we asked or complain about anything that we are doing wrong (be it household, money, shopping/spending or on how to raise your chidren) and then expect us to answer to your sweet calls from the bedroom because WE DO NOT FORGET.
Posted by joobeky, Thursday, 26 January 2006 2:44:41 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Part 2 - Compartments Cont...

Even if it seems like we are ordering you around or talking to you like we talk to the kids or the dog when u get home it is simple - if we have been stuck in a house with kids all day and have had no adult interaction we can and do forget how to talk to you at an adult level - so please be patient and wait untill the kids go to bed before engaging in any type of decent conversation with us because if the kids have driven us bonkers then we will fire at you without realising and if you try and make us realize this we will start throwing grenades and then my friend it is all about those compartments.

LOL
Posted by joobeky, Thursday, 26 January 2006 2:46:32 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
"You cant tell us that we look fat in the morning in that dress even if we asked or complain about anything that we are doing wrong (be it household, money, shopping/spending or on how to raise your chidren) and then expect us to answer to your sweet calls from the bedroom because WE DO NOT FORGET."

ROFL - so what you are basically saying is that men should give you schmalz to make you feel better about yourself, rather then be rational and honest.

Men know that thats the oldest trick in the book to get women into bed, so thats exactly what many do. What then of course happens is when reality hits with a thud and the truth comes out, there are lots of tears and broken hearts and men are called various names :(

So do you want schmalz to make you feel better about yourself, or would it not pay you to start learning how to rationally put things in compartments ? :)
Posted by Yabby, Thursday, 26 January 2006 10:36:10 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Yabby

I have no problem with honesty. Although I do have a problem with "men compartmentalise, women don't" gross generalisation!

But tell me how does one answer the question "Do you think my penis is too small?"

Which is better? Honesty (my preference) or a big lie? Just as some clothes make some people look fat, some people have very small genitals and the truth is, yes there is too small. Coz if you can't feel it - doesn't matter how you use it.

;-)
Posted by Scout, Thursday, 26 January 2006 10:46:03 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
LOL> Scout. You are too funny....

That is why it is imperative that people develop their imagination...

Anybody who asks if their penis is too small or they look too fat is looking for trouble.....By that stage in their life, they should know.

Off now to celebrate Australia Day with some home made meat pies and lots of sauce and visit to a festival where my 14 year old niece is playing in a band and entertaining. HOw cool.!
Posted by Jolanda, Thursday, 26 January 2006 11:25:58 AM
Find out more about this user Visit this user's webpage Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Scout, I agree with your comment about gross generalisations but there may be an element of truth to it.

The question "Is my penis too small?" - if I was ever silly enough to ask the question and got an answer I did not consider flattering I would probably be pleased if the person who was honest with me still liked me enough to want sex with me despite their views on the equipment front. The responsibility for asking the question lies with the person asking it and likewise how they deal with it. Placing people in positions where they are punished for telling the truth can set a pattern.

Now for some fun with the question.

Clearly not a question that should be asked after a cold swim.

A friend recently related a comment reportedly from Tom Arnold after his breakup from Rosanne Barr and her complaints about his equipment size. Something like "Even a Jumbo Jet would look small in the Grand Canyon". Sometimes these issues are a matter of perspective.

Hows your year going so far?

Cheers
R0bert
Posted by R0bert, Thursday, 26 January 2006 12:17:11 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
"But tell me how does one answer the question "Do you think my penis is too small?""

Lol Scout, to be honest, I think its better if you are honest, for
if you are sexually incompatible with somebody, the relationship probably has a limited future anyhow. I'd also suggest that perhaps the guy who asks you that, is not the smartest..

I once worked with a woman who kept on about black guys and their large penises and how great that was. She went on and on, so one day, with my dry sense of humour, I suggested that perhaps there was nothing that a few stitches could not fix. She never mentioned black guys again :)
Posted by Yabby, Thursday, 26 January 2006 12:18:17 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
To be honest Yabby, no male has ever asked me - he hasn't had to. The merest hint that I have found him less than adequate brings out a plethora of insecurity.

Which brings me to the point I was trying to make - both men and women are often insecure about themselves; performance, attractiveness and so on.

Also I neglected to say (as a person of slender proportions) that there is too big as well.....

This is all really off topic anyway and maybe a little off colour as well.

In my 20's when married, my husband came home from work and stopped, whereas I came home from work and was expected to wait on him. He did absolutely nothing in the way of domestic work. His mother was partly to blame - she did everything for him and brought him up to believe that women were doormats.

And a lot of men still behave that way.

That said, my last long term partner was wonderful - we shared everything equally. He saw housework as part of living which it is and has nothing to do with gender. However, I think he was the exception rather than the rule. Being 11 years younger than I am, he was from a more enlightened generation.

I find men my own age still in the 'me tarzan, you jane' view of the sexes - I have better things to do with my life than become an unpaid maid for someone who is old enough to take care of himself.
Posted by Scout, Friday, 27 January 2006 9:17:56 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
"He did absolutely nothing in the way of domestic work. His mother was partly to blame - she did everything for him and brought him up to believe that women were doormats."

Scout - I've seen both sides of this question and I don't think its gender specific. I think that there will just be selfish people, who try to take advantage of the good nature of their partners. Yes I know guys like you refer to, but I was also around in the late 70s, when many women stated that they did not get married to go to work after that. When hubby came home after a physically hard shift or two, he was told to make his own bl**dy* cup of tea, even if they had been sitting, chatting to their friends all morning. So I've seen people try to use people of either gender.

Today we have all sorts of cominations of partnerships, working wives, househusbands, you name it, it exists. It comes back to fairness and balance, communication and both sides trying to contribute, to make it easier for the other. No doubt there will continue to be people around, who try to use their partner.

I guess its a thing to keep in mind, which is often forgotten when the hormones rush, all reason goes out the window and we follow our feelings into a relationship. Easy to say but harder to do :)
Thats why I enjoy neuroscience, it helps explain how irrational we can be when those brain chemicals surge...
Posted by Yabby, Friday, 27 January 2006 12:21:34 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Yabby - I take your point that there is a great deal of selfishness on both sides.

There is nothing sexier than a man who knows what he is doing around the house. It was such a turn-on to come home to a clean home and food on the table....

I think we will achieve true equality one day, but not for many generations. There are still women who basically behave like prostitutes (marry for money etc) and they push any progress back for the rest of us (women). Plus there are still men who think that bossing women around makes them 'real men', when all it does is make them a pain to be around.

Enjoying the thread - thanks to all.
Posted by Scout, Friday, 27 January 2006 12:44:13 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Dr Nichloas Gruen presents a prime example of 'male bashing' with this article on domestic 'roles' or gender inequality.
Present trends journalists and amateur counterparts utilise is that men are useless at domestic matters.
We see and hear it enough in the media,(especially television), that men are inept and women are the most capable 'sex' on the planet. Women have a long way to go before thay can match the physical and mental capabilities of men. History speaks for itself.
The best 'domestics' are often of the male gender - footman, waiter, butler.
The best chefs undeniably male, (Note the TV cooking programs featuring men), and yet 'Men Can't Cook' according to the media and Dr Gruen?
Dish washers in restaurants are generally male, (No electric dishwashers here -remember the Chinese laundry, mainly worked by men? No washing machines there).
Men perform better under pressure, and have the physical strength to make better cleaners. (Have you checked who is cleaning your office recently?)
Yes, many women do look after the family home and I'm sure they do a good job, however
Men can and do perform domestic duties often and do them well.
It may be a source of some humour but 'Gay' men have been noticable in the domstic 'arena' - many women agree.
How about putting a little less bias to the women and a bit more to the men.
If you are interested,
I always cook Christmas dinner for family and friends.
I perform most 'domestic' everyday chores,
Plus I am handyman, gardener, entertainer, and friend. I am also a father to my daughters who live with and depend on me. (Their mother died 8 years ago)
On top of that, I have a full time job,play sport and also am a musician.
Have I left anything out -
Oh Yes, occasionally I am busy with my wonderfully over energetic 6 year old son( from my ex-wife)
So I don't think I am doing too badly for a 'Useless' male.
What do you think Dr. Gruen
Posted by ET TU BRUTUS, Friday, 27 January 2006 2:05:00 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
I am also a single father who did more than my fair share of bringing up my children. They have spend most of their time with me while in addition to their financial support, I seemed held responsible for their hapless mother (it is a blunt instrument, that CSA).

I also cook and clean, but do so as necessary and unashamedly look to labour saving techniques. These include some prioritisation, take-outs, eat-outs, and erratic cleaning frenzies as time permits and requirements dictate.

Housework is easier than a high pressure job, at 48.5% tax rates, 32% child support (or mostly 18% in my case), and a mortgage. There is nothing easier than acquiring at least half a Sydney house just by living in it for a few years while keeping it somewhat clean. Tax free and shameless, yet we still complain…

We’re bound to be just as unhappy, when that utopian day of true equality arrives. If not that very day, then surely the one following. So let’s all learn to cook and clean. If our children must belong to their mothers, then let’s at least not lose our homes to their cleaners.
Posted by Seeker, Friday, 27 January 2006 10:24:40 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
I had lived by myself for around 4 years. My home the domestic bastion of a “single white male”. Better coordinated and decorated (although I know what colours go with teal, I have no other leanings that way) than most single male abodes but the usual standard in many other respects, vacuumed once a month, dusted now and then, no children any more, no mess and that same convenient “seat up” strategy which I had educated my daughters into when they lived here.

About 6 months ago my partner moved in fulltime, mainly to avoid excessive travel for her new job and as a prelude to us doing the Sea Change thing in the near future.

I had never considered how much a single male household saves by frugal use of toilet rolls (oh do women eat them?), the avoidance of toilet deodorisers and the array of specialist cleaning products.

The toilet deodoriser was the worst, the plastic hook broke and it got flushed, blocking the pipe and costing another $140 for the plumber to attend.

In our joint household, my partner chooses to use the laundry several times a week, whilst I would leave it to a slow evening but before the pile of dirties threatens to incubate a new species.

Re-Ironing, got an ironing lady and at $10 a load is very economic.

Cooking (or meal preparation) – she does dinner 30% of time, me 10% and then we eat out a lot, I do breakfast (95% time).

Pedant, your domestic respects and tolerances are to be commended.

When_The_Going_Gets_Weird, Great post however Instead of “divorcee” I preferred “born again batchelor”

Spot on t.u.s. “women do things which are there to be done, men do things which have to be done.”

Excellent analogy, no point us fella’s worrying about our hair being matted or if our loin cloth coordinates with our wolf skin top when hunting brontosaurus.

Don’t worry about tubleys “shrewness”, you are in a select group to be the object of his attempts at sarcasm and even Shakespeare had tips on how to tame them.
Posted by Col Rouge, Saturday, 28 January 2006 7:31:41 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
I suppose I go against the theory that males do what needs to be done as opposed to what's 'there' to be done.

I believe it to be very functional to live in a clean, organised house. In my view if you have control over house, if your house looks good and operates well, then this extends into your daily life, for example, organised house = organised life. Control over house = control over your own life.

I ensure that the flour, sugar, baking soda etc are kept to one section of the cupboard while the spices are kept in another. All containers are marked neatly with permanent marker.

I ensure that there is no clutter in the house and that beds are made each day and everything is kept tidy. No messy chords from appliances are to be sticking out hap-hazardly and same goes in the living room - all videos to be stored in the one place, books stacked neatly and evenly on shelves, photo frames arranged in a balanced manner.

In the garden I choose plants that go well together, are correctly spaced and suit the climate that we live in. I keep bushes pruned and the grass mowed. Garbage is taken out regularly, with recyclable objects put into the recycling bin. I take the dog for a walk twice a day.

I do all the cooking and I wash up as I go - I enjoy the meal more knowing that I've already done the washing up. I do housework every day because I want to, it helps me keep on top of things and makes it all the more enjoyable returning home each day.

This extends to my profession as I have found that having a neat and organised classroom enables children to work and learn better. Parents, I have found also like to see their children working in such an environment.

My partner is also a teacher and wishes to continue teaching while I look after any future kids we may have. I think it will work well.
Posted by tubley, Saturday, 28 January 2006 8:34:53 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Somebody please email me when this debate is resolved
Posted by bennie, Saturday, 28 January 2006 1:20:26 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
tubley, what works best for you might not work as well for others. My dinner preperations don't go nearly as well if I keep interupting them to do other things - maybe that male anti-multitasking gene. My ironing generally happens on as needs basis with occasional batch jobs (a quiet evening or wet weekend day etc) to clear the pile. Trying to get it ironed as I got it off the clothes line sounds like a pain.

I enjoy the house tidy but even more I prefer a life that lets me fit in otherthings that need doing (or which I want to do) as well. Clean, definately but cleanliness has degrees to it.

I suspect that this whole topic has a number of different faces.
- Guys like myself and others who have posted here who quite happily do housework but who may have different priorities to their partners when doing the housework.
- Men who think that housework is womens work and just don't do regardless of how their partners workload.
- Women who want the stay at home wife thingy but also want the shared housework bit regardless of their husbands external workload. Add to that women who think that housework should be shared 50/50 but car cleaning, gardening, mowing, gutter cleaning etc is "mens work".
- Maybe a small percentage of women who expect to be kept in the style they would like to become accustomed to and don't think they should have to do any work. Very rare I hope.
- Those couples who find a mix that works for them where they both find a way to live with the other without bullying or resentment.

Cheers
R0bert
Posted by R0bert, Saturday, 28 January 2006 2:44:21 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
RObert

While the prospect of housework, at least the way I described it, may seem daunting, it is actually not such a big task if you make the commitment to staying on top of it.

You mention that you prefer a life that allows you to do other things - same with me. I work as well as coach, and I participate in sport fairly often, and still have time to do all the housework and post on this wonderful site.

Not trying to criticise you, I'm just saying because the transition I have made to a stronger commitment to housework has been highly beneficial to my lifestyle and I highly recommend it.
Posted by tubley, Saturday, 28 January 2006 3:37:06 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
ROFL, this thread is turning into a comparison of househusband notes :)

Well just to drag the male gender down, I have to admit that I am hopeless at housework, simply because I find it totally boring.

I don't believe that great housekeeping is gender related, its more about how our brains are wired. My brother shares my genetic background, the dna just combined in a different way, so we are totally different. His life is structured and ordered, within the 4 walls of a little box, everything in order. He has a 9-5 job.

My life has been one of innovation, thinking outside the square, creating new industries, pioneering new ideas, kind of organised chaos :) My house and lifestyle reflect all that.

So I find it far easier to just pay somebody to come in once a week and clean up the mess that the three dogs and I create...

I know women who insist on having their cd collection in alphabetical order, there are men like that too. Quite frankly somebody like that would drive me totally nuts.

So I've learnt to accept that I might have great cooking skills and other skills, but no housewifely skills whatsoever. Sheesh, we can't be good at everything :)
Posted by Yabby, Saturday, 28 January 2006 5:06:11 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Ok all, it is with great deliberation that I bring myself to post here so as not to cause myself injury. I am a male but am now seriously looking at alternatives.

You can stereotype me till the cows come home if you wish but the dusting gets done when it is thick enough to plow and the mess is just a significant departure from the accepted system of filing. The woman that I am seeing is a great cook, wonderful organiser and a meticulous planner. What a waste it would be to double up on strengths such as these…NAY, it would be a cruel act on my part to diminish her contributions by arguing a case for my own input into improving her basic traits…

Around the home I am basically an ideas man. In the past, ‘ideas men’ have been cruelly subjected to taunts of laziness and I would spend much of my energies defending myself against such baseless allegations if I could be bothered and the cricket wasn’t on the tele. My ideas usually centre around the fact that they are better than one previously put forward that would obligate an unnecessary amount of exertion compared to outcome, on my part.

To some I am an anachronism, to others I am a stereotypical bloke and to the woman I am seeing…well, I must be something, I guess… but to me I am just me. I think I need a lie down now...
Posted by Craig Blanch, Saturday, 28 January 2006 6:49:34 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
What's the point of having a dog if you have to do the barking yourself?

Nah, it's better for a bloke to stay single.
Posted by Maximus, Monday, 30 January 2006 8:34:10 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Very witty Craig Blanch.
oh Maximus, I wouldn't usually agree men should stay single, but in your case I make an necessary exception.
Posted by Coraliz, Monday, 30 January 2006 9:33:27 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
The Order of Familys
I have read on this topic and I can date it back to around A.D 60 from Rome I cant remember exactly how it was actually written but it went something like this;

A Man shall leave his father and mother to find a wife and the two shall join and become like one.

Wives submit to your own Husbands for your Husband is the head. Wives be to your Husbands in everything. Husbands you shall love, respect and honor your Wives. For it is said; he who finds a Wife finds a good thing – Sanctify your wife and she will be like a crown of precious jewels upon your head. Husbands you are your wives protector against all that is unwell in the world respect her like you respect yourself so she may see that you do. See her as the glorious vessel she is without spot or wrinkle and without blemish for all days and she will be pleasing to you.

Another more updated article simply said Wives understand and support your Husbands as he provides leadership to his Wife not by domineering but by cherishing, so Wives should submit to their Husbands and Husbands must love their Wives in everything.

Continued next post….
Posted by joobeky, Friday, 3 February 2006 11:14:03 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Order of family’s cont…..

I do agree with this however I also think that we should and need to work together in everything a marriage is an equal partnership. If the wife is good at organizing the money then let it be if the husband is the better breadwinner then let that be or vica versa. Every marriage is different they all have their strong points and their bad, If you respect each other and their opinion why cant there be equality in the home. We all have our bad days and our good days too. If one is tired the other should carry them through. My husband and I are not totally correct in everything but we realize that some rules were put in place to protect us and help us – we have our way of doing things that might not seem right to some but it works for us, I may whine and he may complain. But if we all liked the same things and had the same ways of thinking, acting, seeing and doing we would not be male and female. I think that there will always be some conflict between the sexes especially in the home because there will always be someone who thinks that they know better. Gosh I know I think that I can never be wrong and have to have the last say, so as long as there is people like me in the world there will always be forums and discussions and to me that is good because I like to write and read and listen to what everyone else thinks about everything I am inquisitive and I also am having fun.

I do not wish to offend anyone with what I have written I believe we are all entitled to an opinion and I respect you all and what you have written I love diversity and believe it or not sometimes someone does have a better answer than me – we all learn knew things everyday and I am open to that. Finally the End
Posted by joobeky, Friday, 3 February 2006 11:14:53 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Would like more females in Parliament
Posted by bushbred, Tuesday, 1 May 2007 1:29:49 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
  1. Pages:
  2. 1
  3. 2
  4. 3
  5. ...
  6. 10
  7. 11
  8. 12
  9. All

About Us :: Search :: Discuss :: Feedback :: Legals :: Privacy