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The Forum > Article Comments > Sydney riots: how do we fix this? > Comments

Sydney riots: how do we fix this? : Comments

By Rafa McNulty, published 20/12/2005

Rafa McNulty argues Australians need to condemn the bigoted sentiments that divide this nation.

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You are on the correct path Rafa, The question is posed, "How do we fix this ?"
There is a serious impediment though when the leader of this country uses racial fears which play on peoples prejudice, for the purpose of electoral gain.
The so-called war on terror has focussed attention on race instead of fundamentalist ideology whilst Australia's immigration policy and denial of asylum has made an enormous contribution to the growth of racism.

Cultural differences need to be properly understood, Just as modern day Australian girls follow fashion trends which are more revealing, Women raised in Muslim communities have their own standards of dress which are not so. I am appalled that people could be moved to forcibly remove the hijab of a muslim woman and hurl abuse at her just as much as the obscene comments of muslim men in reference to bikini clad beach goers as 'aussie sluts'

Our laws relating to racial discrimination are seriously in need of further scrutiny to ascertain what is needed to strengthen and enforce them.
Posted by maracas, Tuesday, 20 December 2005 1:05:28 PM
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Rafa,
This is your opening sentence:
"I am proud to be an Australian."
That is the craziest sentence I have ever read.
Just why are you proud to be an Australian?
Sorry Rafa, I am ashamed that I am Australian.
Posted by GlenWriter, Tuesday, 20 December 2005 6:21:19 PM
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It’s nice to hear that the author feels Australian and appears to have intermarried, judging by her surname; but her belief that Australia is a “shining example of multiculturalism at its best” is off balance. People have not “come together” through the undemocratic imposition of an official multicultural policy. Australia was a naturally multiracial society from the time it was colonised by Britain. People of all backgrounds fitted in relatively quickly and came together as Australians.

It is a moot point indeed that the Cronulla affair was an “Australian against Australian” affair. The white ones were Australian, but how can she be sure that the Lebanese side of the equation should be called Australian? It takes more than a citizenship ceremony or even birth in Australia to be a true Australian. You have to ‘feel’ Australian. The author feels Australian; therefore she is Australian. There is no denying that many if not most of the Lebanese youths involved do not feel Australian. They tell us this themselves. They may have been born here, but thanks to the divisive and confusing enforcement of an official multiculturalism policy on all of us by stupid, white Australian politicians, these young people don’t know what they are supposed to be, feel or think. It’s shame on the bloody self-serving politicians, not “shame of us” as Ms. McNulty believes.

The “demonisation” of Arabs by the media is out of wack with reality, too. If anyone is demonised by the left wing media it is Anglo-Australians - as was clearly evidenced in reports on the situation at Cronulla, the polls about white supremacists, and the squeals of white racism. Most recently they have not even used the “of Middle Eastern appearance” description

“We” do nothing about the problem, Ms. McNulty. The onus is on the idiots who introduced multiculturalism. Before this stupid policy, people got along in Australia much better than they do now. Australia was born with ‘currency lads’, not artificial social engineering and meddling in the 20th century. We took the mickey out of newcomers, they returned the compliment, and we got on well
Posted by Leigh, Tuesday, 20 December 2005 9:10:33 PM
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There were no reported calls for tolerance,patience and rule of law emanating from the mosque that night (Invasion night)
just the ‘usual prayers’.

That such an invasion (60 cars) was not detected/predicted/noticed and STOPPED by Police is evidence that all Tim Priest said of ‘on the ground Intelligence gathering’ is not a part of current Sydney Police philosophy.

<<As the police began to gather and act on intelligence on these emerging Middle Eastern gangs the first of the series of events took place. The New South Wales Police was restructured under Peter Ryan. Crime Intelligence, the eyes and ears of all police forces throughout the world, was dismantled overnight>>

So, up till now, they still don’t know what is going on. We had the benefit of an OLO poster who informed us that the invasion was planned WELL BEFORE the riot it was supposed to be a ‘reaction’ to. The veracity of his claim is yet to be tested.

<<The Lebanese groups were ruthless, extremely violent, and they intimidated not only innocent witnesses, but

...even the police that attempted to arrest them....

As these crime groups encountered less resistance in terms of police operations and enforcement, their power grew not only within their own communities, but also all around Sydney.>>

Here is the dilemna

2001 POLICE SPIN http://www.cyc-net.org/today2001/today010723.html

Bankstown police chief, Superintendent Peter Parsons, denies any link between culture and crime. (fair comment on the surface)
"We have a sizable population of Arabic-speaking people. We have a lot of crime, probably the most crime of any command in the State but, proportionately, I would say that Arabic-speaking people don't commit any more crime than people of an Anglo-Saxon background."
Analysis (of the gobbeldygook)
a)We have....the MOST crime in any command.
b)“proportionately speaking, no more than Anglo-Saxon ’ ? What am I missing here ? a and b are incompatible!

1999-2001 STATISTICAL REALITY

http://www.lawlink.nsw.gov.au/bocsar1.nsf/files/cjb57.pdf/$file/cjb57.pdf

Gun crime in NSW declined, but it SKYROCKETED in ‘Canterbury/Bankstown area’
No “cultural” link between a specific culture and crime, but there sure is a geographical/ethnic one here shown above. Why no action ? Why ?
Posted by BOAZ_David, Tuesday, 20 December 2005 9:24:49 PM
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"It takes more than a citizenship ceremony or even birth in Australia to be a true Australian. You have to ‘feel’ Australian."

this is proof that Leigh has been feeling himself a little too often. tisk tisk!
Posted by Rainier, Tuesday, 20 December 2005 9:57:31 PM
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one way to not fix but prevent worse would be to not let this happen

http://canadiancoalition.com/forum/messages/12071.shtml

Toronto, Canada Monday, December 19, 2005 - On December 2, the Liberal candidate for Mississauga-Erindale, Omar Alghabra, made his victory speech after winning the nomination. In that speech, he reportedly exhorted his audience, "This is a victory for Islam! Islam won! Islam Won! ... Islamic power is extending into Canadian politics".

We need to fix the mess we have now before it gets as bad as the above.

Deport the Hate Clerics and anyone caught ready to commit terror. Have an enquiry into police being unable (through fear or policy) to police Lebs equally to us. etc etc the zero tolerance approach.. Canada “was” a western country.

Kaweb,

I can’t post on that other string, I wasn’t cracking jokes, I was trying to show Steve the lack of value in all r’s posts by showing another bit of idiocy from him. I thought it might lessen the punch in the guts of the comment if Steve realised the kind of low intelligence it came from…

I’m normally very for people saying how they feel. I don’t think peoples “feelings” have a high priority on a political debate forum, but man that was just ugly
Posted by meredith, Wednesday, 21 December 2005 12:48:50 AM
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Rafa lives in denial.

That is the problem.
Posted by FRIEDRICH, Wednesday, 21 December 2005 5:54:12 AM
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I have heard Canada being mentioned before as being a successful multicultural country. But as Meridith points out that is far from the truth, they have massive problems with muslims and right wing christians, who are pushing each other towards conflict.

You can talk all you want about what the problem is, and express bitterness and insults. But it all boils down to religion and its expression. Until you rid this country of the public expression of religion, then there is no hope of this current society or any other surviving in the future. Whether it was political correctness that has brought us to this point or just religion, is not the point. It is with us and growing rapidly, those that think it will go away are living in fantasy land.

If we continue to allow religion to dominate us as it does throughout politics and our social structures, then we will suffer the same fate as societies have throughout history, destruction. Religious expression throughout history has always involved the destruction of all that differs in their beliefs.

Throughout history, all our sociological problems have stemmed from religion, wars have the full support of the religious on all occasions. Name one conflict in the world that is not of a religious nature or doesn't have the backing of a religion.

Deportation to muslim countries in conflict should be the punishment for muslims that commit crimes or promote islamic principals and deportation of christians to christian countries in conflict should be for christians that promote christianity. Remove religions tax exceptions and support for religious schools from the public purse.

Finally ship all the PC's to a war zone so that they can love and care the combatants into submission. If it wasn't for the politically correct brain dead, then most of these problems wouldn't be present.

"It takes more than a citizenship ceremony or even birth in Australia to be a true Australian. You have to ‘feel’ Australian." Pity you never made it Rainer.
Posted by The alchemist, Wednesday, 21 December 2005 6:27:48 AM
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Leigh,

You are spot on.
Posted by FRIEDRICH, Wednesday, 21 December 2005 6:34:04 AM
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Being often charged with 'bashing' various groups, and not seeking solutions, I'll try to outline one possible solution to the CAUSE of the riot at Cronulla.

CAUSE. Define the problem.

1/ Some ill-mannered Australians sling off at the 'new chickens in the pen' (Lebs, most likely the Muslims) This has happened for every new group that ever entered the existing 'chicken pen' of Australia, so does not explain the full picture. All the others, "Wogs, Dagoes, Chinks' etc.. all have come through the initial pecking by the other chickens and we pretty much get along now. (I don't recall these groups calling 200 ethnic supporters for battles)

2/ The Lebs who were abused by the Aussies, sought safety in numbers, by returning with more of their own. The greater the numbers, the greater potential for violent confrontation.
As background, Cronulla of course being accessible by train, and LARGE concentrations of Lebanese are in SW Syd(93% of all Lebs in Australia, I heard) , so the 'numbers' would understandably increase.

3/ When the numbers of Lebs reached critical mass and they perceived themselves to be a majority in the beach, they began pecking the original chickens, treating them as 'new chickens'.

4/ This loop continued, resulting in increasing racial tension, which finally boiled over with the bashing of the lifeguards and the riot.

SOLUTION.

Larger numbers of police on duty on 'beach' days, with clear guidelines for beach behavior as follows to be RIGOROUSLY enforced.

-All are welcome
-NO-ONE is entitled to cordon off sections of beach in the exclusive name of their ethnic group
-Game playing must be subject to it not annoying sunbathers, or a separate area set up for game playing.

Incidents of racist taunt, bullying, territorialness are immediately dealt with, and if intimidation of police occurs, they call for IMMEDIATE AND STRONG backup and if this fails, Civil Defense/TROOPS are called.

ZERO TOLERANCE of anti social behavior.

A better solution would have been to prevent a ghetto in the first place.
Posted by BOAZ_David, Wednesday, 21 December 2005 7:38:13 AM
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Part I

I am sick and tired of uneducated nitwits who call themselves "left", calling white Australians racist for merely being angry at certain ethnic groups that are actually extremely racist and disrespectful.
Why is it so hard for you to call a non-white a bigot or a racist or a homophobe or a chauvanistic pig? Regular Australians are nurtured in a self-critical environment, that is why, even though by mere default of where many immigrants come from, the European ones are less racist than anyone else, we still ask ourselves whether it is our fault or not. The problem with the Left though is that they have withdrawn our right to exercise this critical thought, because they know that some of the cultures we bring here would need a complete overhaul in terms of deceny and human rights and understanding equality.

This, however, is unacceptable. Who do they think they are to throw undeserved garbage at working-class Anglo-Australia just for pointing out racism and bigotry in a section of, for example, the muslim culture?

"I would in a heart beat fight to defend my country should it ever come under attack. But what happened last weekend was not a show of patriotism or love of country. It was Anglo-Celtic Australian against Middle Eastern"

This is where the fundamental problem lies : they(the left-wing ignorant racist) make a negative judgmnent about the Anglo-Austalian every time he is criticising an ethnic group. There is never even the slightest inquiry into the truth.
In the Cronulla case, they were fed up with packs of muslim youth intimidating and harassing them for years for no reason other than they are skip trash to them. Not only has this happenned to evry poor white in South-western Sydney, it is now, in the last ten years, happenning in suburbs where they don't even live.
Ask yourself : who is the bully here? They come to a predominantly non-muslim area and manage to frighten them? Release a pack of gorillas on any town and the locals will require the police shoot them down.
Posted by Matthew S, Wednesday, 21 December 2005 7:43:40 AM
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There is little anyone can do. The gods (small g) of fate have put the wheels of time in motion. The clock is ticking.

Understand that this is not about a beach in Sydney, or people from Lebanon, or rednecks and people who post to online forums. It is much bigger.

Events and circumstances, made up of million small things and a few big ones (globalization, communications technology, mass immigration, multiculturalism, political correctness, etc...) have
come together to give us Reality 2005. This varies by country, but many have the same problem – Muslim immigration. If it were just Australia, I would say “forget it”. However, the turmoil caused by Muslims reaches around the world and follows them wherever they go.

Do our Muslims friends ever ask what is “special” about Islam that it is so often associated with misery, hate and terror? No. A discussion about Cronulla is pointless unless you talk about London, Paris, Scandinavia, Pakistan, Egypt, Indonesia, etc... It is all one problem and Islam can only be understood in light of what it does where it dominates, and what its followers do where they go. Yet in the media all we see is “Australian racism.”

There is a pattern that transcends nation, race, ethnicity or individual. The only shared factor is religion. Muslims do not want to talk about it, but there is an underlying attitude of anger and contempt in Islam that explains much of what we see. This attitude varies from Muslim to Muslim, from sheer hate to peaceful acceptance of Western culture and, of course, its blessings. Another thing common to Muslims is their denial as to the often abhorrent content of their sacred writings and the frequently vile life of Mohammed – their “great” example. Because Muslims cannot recognize the problem, they cannot help fix it, and we cannot do it by ourselves.

I said 3 months ago this would happen, but not so soon. I was wrong. Now as a pessimist I find it discouraging that I was too optimistic. Bad times are a-coming and there is no fixing it.

Kactuzkid
Posted by kactuz, Wednesday, 21 December 2005 7:48:56 AM
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Part II

To simply pass off racial attacks, bashings, murders and racial
gang rapes, something so vile it had only been seen in war time until they arrived, as the media "Arab-bashing" is not only irresponsible, as ofcourse a bunch of racists are going to think you are attacking them when all that you are doing is describing a disgusting crime or crimes, it is down-right rude to any victims of these racial bashings, murders and vile gang rapes.
Their leaders don't even acknowledge these crimes as being racist. That tells the average Aussie all they need to know.

And about being a proud Aussie who would stand up for this country anytime : what rubbish. Why then, would you not be as angry as the Cronulla residents, who really speak for every Aussie(any race) who know about this problem, who were only angry that, for political reasons, the police and politicians do nothing about the racist thugs who intimidate all non-thems, and at the same time the left-wing spit venom at them and call them hicks. How rude.

How dare you be so elitist that you don't even listen to their concern just because they are working-class whites.

If something isn't done in the next fifty years right accross the western world where all the muslim diasporas are, as well as the criminal elements of the Asian culture(cabramatta), then I fear the only solution will be something hideous like a Nazi party coupled with some extermination. Why push decent, honest, severely tolerant, hard-working people to this extreme?
Posted by Matthew S, Wednesday, 21 December 2005 7:51:44 AM
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Islam, not race, is the problem. Islam is a cruel, vicious religion. Unlike Christians, Muslims are not able to interpret the Koran and and come to grips with the parts of their book that are not relevant to today. Christians began ignoring the Old Testament long ago, and they are continually exposing the myths in the Bible as guides to the undeducated and superstitious of yore, totally irrlevant to the modern world.

Until Muslims have an enlightened leader like other religions - not a dead, illiterate prophet - there is no place for Muslims in the Western world.
Posted by Leigh, Wednesday, 21 December 2005 11:10:54 AM
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Until we get some strict laws that apply to everyone, these upsets are going to become a regular part of daily life.
There is a decided lack of discipline that is apparent in the behaviour of the young in all races in Australia.
The white youths are the easiest to blame, their drunken misbehaviour was so obvious.
The Middle East youths were more vicious but there seemed to be a complete lack of police and media around although retaliation was expected.
If the politicians and the police can grow some backbone and draw a line that the young know they must not step over , we will get some civility but unless the law acts like the law, they will be ignored.
For the sake of the population the young must be made to act in a decent manner.
Posted by mickijo, Wednesday, 21 December 2005 1:02:24 PM
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Bigoted sentements? divided nation? just how far from reality will some stray?
A shamefull over reaction to a list of shamefull acts will never divid this nation.
Yes the whites only ratbags are small in number but thanks to press exposure big on impact.
A group of Lebanese Muslims very small in overall numbers have zero respect for our country and us.
Both groups of idiots have no chance of changeing our countrys beleif in a fair go.
This thread can try to distroy multi culturism if you wish but is bound to fail.
One culture however , not Australia,s must change facts are facts.
Posted by Belly, Wednesday, 21 December 2005 2:56:23 PM
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I have never been so sickeningly appalled and disgusted at the 'racial riot' occurring in Sydney over the past 14 days. Graphic images of the worst kind - of cowardly 'yobbos' leering at the camera, bedecked in our National flag, sledging insults, and pursuing helter-skelter, an ambulance while raining beer bottles, rocks etc on defenceless NSW police, trying to maintain Law and Order.

That it happened two weeks from Christmas, and in Cronulla - sic the centre of the Universe ! Best Olympic Games ever ! Overall winner of the State of Origin ! Birth place of the Nation !
Simply say's it all.

From recent post's on Forum, recriminate wannabee's flexing their intellectual muscle, who deride multiculturalism, middle-east migration, foreigners, white supremacy, xenophobia, neo-nazism etc please take a cold shower !

Sociologist will tell us, that letting fly at ' labels ' for the World's ill's is a certain sign of 'you did this-she did that syndrome. Blissfully, the double standards displayed will re-emerge soon enough - else where ?

There is nothing novel about rioting in Sydneysville - it's origins are probably lost in History.

From the First Fleeter's: when a brigantine of convict women berthed in Darling Harbour - it not only created rioting, chaos, debauchery and mayhem for a sex starved colony bereft of members of the fairer sex - they subsequently hanged the offenders.

More recent, it took the NSWPD over a month to restore L/O when Aboriginal ghetto Redfern was under siege and burning ! Even then, the gendarmes were ineffectual and abysmally slow in response. Commissioner Maroney's reaction was less then reassuring. He equivocated several times.

G forbid, that Sydney might be the subject of a terrorist bomb threat ! Operation "SETA" was nothing more than a flyblown PR exercise - as if the presence of 2000 coppers and SWAT teams (SAS commando's on standby too )trudging the beach - armed to the teeth, in the mid-day Ozzie sun, would send shivers down blind Freddy's spine. Denuding who ?

continued part two
Posted by dalma, Wednesday, 21 December 2005 3:35:26 PM
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AC Nielson's Poll revealed only 22 % of Ozzies believed the skirmish was ' racially motivated'. So where/how have the social-engineers, pseudo-academic's,expert's Jo Walkim, Rafa McNutty, liberals and libertines, got it so horribly wrong ?

At the very least, the heat has been taken off the Orientals - Cabramatta, Haymarket, Chinatown, Marrickville where wholesale discrimination, violence, abuse, fire-bombing, intimidation, thuggery has been institutionalised since 1858. Sporadic flares, 1994 MP John Newman, gunned down in broad daylight. Isn't it obvious the problem has been seething for eons ?

Geoffrey Blainey, Allan Jones,and the who's who on anti-multiculturalism clique have gone public - they want an Anglo-celtic Australia, cessation of immigration, only Australian spoken, and a pathetic diatribe of 'purient-spittle' arguments reminiscent of Himmler's 'final solution ' Why not build a 'berlin wall' to keep the wogs out. When do we bring in the 'ethnic cleansing', holocaust and class-divisions ? Wogs, lebs and people of middle-eastern appearances to wear arm-bands to identify the rabble ??

Futher exacerbating the issue, JWH in addition to his draconian IR legislature proposes to allow 'guest workers' from developing countries,temporary visa's to work here. His earlier 'think-tank' policies were a dismal failure - creating a chronic shortage of skilled workers to fulfill the needs of our resources's sector ? Not only will this invite further bloodshed, more ghetto's, social Armageddon, cheap labour and questionable quality - Cronulla will appear a 'blimp' on the radar, by comparison. What of 'family reunions'. The ramifications surely a by-product of the current crisis being played out in Sydney.

Greedy Employers will ensure wages are kept at ' coolie-level'. We will see an erosion of conditions, quality of life - which puts paid on Duncan Kerr's, and the ALP's general acceptance of IR. Why haven't we heard rimblings from the worker's advocate ?

Could it be, the ACTU are still smarting, and in a state of denial after championing Mark Latham for PM, and copping abuse in his biography of the hypocrisy and cronyism that permeats every sub-branch in the ALP ?

So much for our Pollies and their movers-and-shakers.

Cheers
Posted by dalma, Wednesday, 21 December 2005 4:28:05 PM
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A parody of a parody of a parody. Played real fast.

Jingle bells, Jingle bells, jingle all the way
Oh how much fun it is to drive a f*cked up old FJ.
OHY! OHY! OHY.
234
Smack a seaweed, smack a surfie, smack a nipper today
Oh how much fun it is to smack a surfie about this way
Kick ‘em in the brains, boot ‘em in the balls, jump up on he head
Oh how much fun it is to fight a beach boy ‘til he’s dead.
234
Kick a mossie, kick a mossie, kick a mossie today,
Oh how much fun it is to kick a mossie in this way,
Kick ‘em in the brains, boot ‘em in the balls, jump up on he head,
Oh how much fun it is to beat a mossie ‘til he’s dead
234
Kill a mossie, kill a Aussie, kill a leftie today
Oh how much fun it is to kill dem dat gets in da way – Hail Hitler.
Oh kick ‘em in the balls, punch ‘em in the face, chop off all he head
Oh how much fun it is to beat others ‘till they’re dead.
234
Jingo hails, jingo hails, jingoist hails today,
Jingoism, jingoism jingoism oh hooray,
Oh kick 'em brain, boot 'em in the balls, punch them up the throat,
Kill the c*nts, kill the c*nts put 'em on a boat.
Oh what fun it is to hate others in this way. (sarcasm)

Now its time, now its time, to fix this sh*t someway.
Put the thugs on a boat, put stirrers on a boat send THEM up sh*t creek
oh what fun it is see THEM all bail out - cause the boat has got a leak.
Posted by rancitas, Wednesday, 21 December 2005 6:20:24 PM
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Rafa like the majority of Australians still don't have a clue about islam - they want to continue to live in the comfort of DENIAL.

It’s unreal to think that the world around us don’t view Australia as non-racial.

Dreaming of a solution is just a dream. Like some idiots we've met here fantasising about a nirvana world without religion... never ceases to amaze me!

Confronting the problem with education, revealing the truth and acting on our convictions is the only recourse.

I strongly disagree with the writer about not telling our 8 year old children about the Real Santa in town. I would even recommend we start teaching 'our' kids the Arabic language to make it easier for them to integrate in the future.

It takes less than a second to post a message around the world - but it takes an eternity to get through the thick walls of some closed minds.
Posted by coach, Wednesday, 21 December 2005 7:01:13 PM
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there is a lot of racism in australia but most of it comes from aboriginals and some ethnic groups like lebanese muslims towards other aussies.

there is no doubt that a sizable section of the lebanese community is dysfunctional in nature and at the root of most of the criminal gangs in sydney.

this can be traced back to the original lebanese muslims allowed into australia after 1975 and the lebanese civil war......most of these people were from the lawless northern hills of lebanon and multiculti policies encouraged them to maintain their lifestyle and attitudes here......hence the formation of ghettoes in sydney and the obnoxious anti social behaviour and disrespect for law and order so many lebanese exhibit.

i would like to know the name of the bright spark who thought it a good idea to ship truck loads of these law abiding citizens to australia in the first place.

the problem now is one of law enforcement and zero tolerance and if that means locking down suburbs like lakemba, auburn and bankstown and using martial law then so be it.
Posted by vinny, Thursday, 22 December 2005 6:47:29 AM
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the only real solution to the ethnic crisis is to vote for political parties that have policies of inclusion and sensible immigration policies.

the current problems can all be blamed on the labour party and their hordes of left wing cheer leaders in the media who have been pushing the multiculti bandwagon for the past 30 years.

also the labour party's family reunion scheme exacerbates the problem of unsuitable people coming here and filling up those ethnic ghettoes.......then add the labour states governments policy of cowardice and appeasement to ethnic gangs and the picture is complete.

it's no use complaining if you keep voting labour in (state/fed) they are the cuse of all the problems........take your revenge at the next state election.
Posted by vinny, Thursday, 22 December 2005 7:01:32 AM
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Santa Claus, under that disguise of red clothes, long white hair and beard is actually Saint Nicholas, of Anatolia, which is part of modern Turkey. Which means, he is actually "of Middle Eastern Appearance" and is wearing a disguise.

Does this mean that the NSW Police Helicopter, Polair One, will be on patrol to stop his unauthorised entry to Cronulla this year? After all, we cannot have persons of Middle Eastern Appearance with a vehicle full of unidentified parcels arriving in the Shire, can we?
Posted by Hamlet, Friday, 23 December 2005 10:05:45 PM
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Vinny,
If you are not part of the solution, you're part of the problem
Posted by maracas, Friday, 23 December 2005 10:31:31 PM
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i would like to know the name of the bright spark who thought it a good idea to ship truck loads of these law abiding citizens to australia in the first place.

vinny,

Have you considered the names:

Grassby
Whitlam
Fraser?

http://franksartor.org/orangenet/multiculturalism.htm
Posted by teamworktom, Sunday, 25 December 2005 6:58:34 AM
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Yes, there is. It is inherently stupid and infantile to despise someone because of a matter beyond their control (such as ethnicity, race or colour).

On what basis have you decided that it is inherent, stupid and infantile?

Why would it matter to the opinion of another one was in control of?

It also makes no sense to discriminate against such a person.

What has sense got to do with emotion?

Racism creates artificial barriers that serve little purpose, and help to create a society based on division and not inclusion.

All barriers are artificial, and the right to discriminate is inherent and God given.

When we start discriminating on the basis of race, we then find other excuses to divide and discriminate.

It was God who created the Tower of Babble to confound and confuse.

And soon we won't have a society left.

I believe we would have a stronger society if we have a common purpose.

Further, the Abrahamic (Judeo-Christian-Islamic) values that form the basis of our civilisation regard racism as an abomination.

Now were did you get this little gem?

1 Samuel 15 :33
And Samuel said, as the sword hath made women childless, so shall thy mother be childless among women. And Samuel hewed Agag in pieces before the LORD in Gilgal.

Judges 6:33-40; 7:1-25
Posted by teamworktom, Monday, 26 December 2005 7:45:56 AM
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In 1974, under Whitlam, 120,000 immigrants settled in this country. This year the immigration target set by the Howard government was 120,000.

Levels have never been as high as they were between 1968 and 1970, prior to Whitlam, at over 180,000.

The Howard government initially cut immigration back to around 80,000 but has been increasing levels ever since.

Rates of immigration are set for economic purposes, not as an element of left/right divisions.

It doesn't matter who you vote for because business needs immigration. If you don't like immigration or multiculturalism your only option is to start breeding.
Posted by chainsmoker, Monday, 26 December 2005 2:31:10 PM
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It is not the numerical strength of migrants , it is the strength of character of the migrant.

It is also their abiulity to fit in , if they cannot fit in , then Fork Off!
Posted by teamworktom, Monday, 26 December 2005 4:10:52 PM
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Getting back to the friction that caused this flurry of examination: That is the conflict over the use of the beach.

The council could put into place, as other councils have done, measures that would maximise the enjoyment of the beach by the most number of people.

First is a ban on all ball games on the beach and in the parkland behind the beach. If someone wants to play football then they should go to a park where football can be played.

No amplified music, including radios, boom boxes or ghetto blasters. No live instruments, including drums. If you want music, go to a disco or a theatre.

No alcohol: if you want to drink, go to a pub.

No portable barbeques or open fires. The council should provide coin operated electric barbeques that people will take in turns to use.

In other words, use the beach, but don't interfere with anyone else's enjoyment.

If thbis isn't multicultural: Tough.
Posted by Hamlet, Monday, 26 December 2005 4:27:44 PM
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Today I was walking along Bondi Road when I heard the sound of very loud Arabic music blaing from a car approach from behind me.

I turned and listened as the source of the music approached, so I was able to tell that I could first hear it when the car was about 100 metres away.

The car was the centre vehicle in a group of three containing young men 'of middle eastern appearance' that were waving and calling to each other as they drove past me. The fact that these young men are so insecure that they have to travel in convoy was the first thing that came to mind.

But, with their music, combined with their actions so far, they had simply self identified as probably belonging to a middle eastern culture.

A woman, mid 20s, simply dressed in the same way as any young woman in Bondi was waiting to cross at the lights. One of the young men leant out the car window and spat at her, and made some comment in what sounded like Arabic, as they drove past.

So yes. Bigotted sentiments need to be condemned, so how would Rafa McNulty deal with this situation? And am I wrong to be bigotted when I see self identifying representatives of any cultural group act in such a way?
Posted by Hamlet, Tuesday, 27 December 2005 7:21:40 PM
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Is it just me? or do others get the sense that these forums are being taken over by the Australian branch of the Adolf Hitler Appreciation Society?

I guess there will always be people ready to hate anyone they deem different. Yesterday, they hated Jews. Today, it's Muslims. Not much has changed. Nazis will always be Nazis.
Posted by Irfan, Wednesday, 28 December 2005 12:38:58 AM
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Ifran

It's just you... The bigotry lays in suppression by islamists and the pc of human opinion.
Posted by meredith, Wednesday, 28 December 2005 2:15:21 AM
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Yes Ifran , it is just poor you!

Have you tried reading this prophesy The River Tiber which has all but eventuated?

http://franksartor.org/orangenet/riversofblood.htm
Posted by teamworktom, Wednesday, 28 December 2005 5:58:31 AM
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Irfan,

True respect is something earned rather than demanded.

How can one not dislike the daily display of arrogant and defiant rudeness from members of the Islamic community? (And I am not ONLY referring to the gang war thugs)

Where are the so called "moderate" muslims in the midst of the Sydney 'tribal' war?

If your community leaders do not DO something (instead of denial and blame throwing) to the rest of us it means they are condoning the behaviour and even cheering and celebrating (it)in their living rooms and mosques.
Posted by coach, Wednesday, 28 December 2005 6:25:47 AM
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Irfan, playing the Nazi card is nearly always a sign that the person stating an opinion has run out of good arguments.

Another problem with any comparison with Nazism is that the the Nazi policy against the Jews and the Gypsies was due to ethnicity, and not religious belief. A Jew who can converted to Christianity was still a Jew, so assimilation was impossible. How the Jews and Gypsies acted did not make any difference.

And the original targets of the Nazis were actually Germans - the 'worthless eaters' - people with psychiatric conditions, the 'developmentally delayed' and those with medical conditions that meant that they could not contribute to a certain vision of German society. These were the first ones put to death in Nazi Germany under a program of 'improving society'.

I do not see any of that here.

The problem in Australia is about behaviour, specifically anti-social behaviour, unless, of course, you are claiming that the host culture should simply accept bad behaviour from one or another group because of their ethnicity?

When it comes to accepting difference it cuts both ways. The host culture must be prepareed to accept that groups from outside, or indeed that may have grown inside it, are different. The 'hosted' cultures must also be prepared to accept that where their behaviour is likely to cause friction with the host culture then that behaviour must be moderated.
Posted by Hamlet, Wednesday, 28 December 2005 7:46:46 AM
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Irfan, I recall very few posts which have been supportive of racial purity agenda's. A number wanting the return of the "White Australia" policy but they seem to be from a small minority of posters. Did you see Arjay's recent post re extremist view points and the harm they are doing?

I'm seeing some christains fighting a turf war over who has the right to impose their religious dogma on the rest of the population.

I am seeing a lot of people very frustrated by what they percieve as a significant problem in Sydney and the apparent unwillingness of the government to deal with it. Rightly or wrongly these people appear to believe that gangs of youths of Lebanese muslim origins have been terrorising people in and around Sydney for some years and that those from their own ethnic/religious communities who should be standing up to them are letting tribal loyalties come before any sense of right or wrong. They are frustrated that this is happening and don't know what to do about it. Others report wider problems within some sections of the middle eastern/muslim communities regarding respect for our laws etc.

A combination of fear mongering by those pushing agenda's along with legitimate concerns about the behaviour of small sections of what appear to be people from middle eastern/muslim communities and the less than obvious attempts by leaders in those communities to resolve this are creating a cycle of escalation which is pushing some to extreme's.

The Nazi's didn't gain power because everybody in Germany started out bad, they got there because good people became convinced that they provided some hope.

While issues appear to be being brushed under the carpet, while the rioting thugs gain more condemnation in the media, from politicians and from muslim leaders than the gangs people will get more and more upset and the conspiracy crowd will gain greater footholds.

Open up front dealing with the issues is needed, not attempts to sidestep the issues otherwise we provide fuel to the fire some are trying to start.

R0bert
Posted by R0bert, Wednesday, 28 December 2005 9:05:18 AM
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I have noticed a shift in Irfans usually calm demeanor in recent posts - I am loathe to make generalisations but no that loathe to comment that it is partly in that subtle shift in tone you can find some answers to the overiding tension we are facing.

Instead of reason and logic Irfan has in a limited sense retreated to name calling - in response to fairly pointed bagging of his opinions and articles I might add; multiply that limited response by some exponential factor and you can end up with the type of mess we are all commenting on.

The inter racial/religious intolerance coming from both camps is a dynamic and dangerous phenomenon - however the more we talk about it the better; but talking about it from the entrenched positions that dominate these pages and the pages of our dailies is pretty stupid.

I am very wary indeed of any one, and those anyones are here in spades, who tell me they have THE answer.
Posted by sneekeepete, Thursday, 29 December 2005 10:14:04 AM
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Solomom aka sneekeepete - And WHICH camp are you from?
Posted by teamworktom, Thursday, 29 December 2005 10:22:14 AM
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Alchemist,

For once I agree with your statement that religious institution/ religious schools should not be state funded.

Secularism works perfectly when stays at arms length from beliefs, sexual preferences, geopolitical conflicts. Switzerland is the bets example I have seen.
Posted by Fellow_Human, Thursday, 29 December 2005 10:32:10 AM
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Irfan, on reflection I missed a group which I was probably thinking of as belonging to the disturbed about the sydney gangs but which may have a seperate identity.

There are a number of posters wanting a return to an imagined monoculture which is simpler to deal with. Most are probably happy to have asians running the local asian food fast food shop and maybe a greek or two in the fruit and veggi shop but don't want other cultures right in their face. They especially don't want people from other cultures insisting that the "Aussie" culture change to accomodate these newer arrivals, after all we were here second.
They don't want people calling for a toning down of christmas whilst insisting on displaying their own religious symbols.

Multiculturalism does not just work on it's own, it takes effort from all concerned. Some don't want to do that work, others are concerned that governments which have brought in and sponsored multiculturalism have not put the other stuff in place to make it work. Most of these concerns appear to center around the responsibilities of newcomers to fit in with the existing population.

Most of this group are not racist/nazi sympathisers etc but rather concerned about protecting a lifestyle they enjoy for themselves and their kids.

Suggestions are welcome about how to ease the fears of this group.

In my view this country has generally managed to make multiculturalism work fairly well over time, generally some transition problems as new groups arrive which settle after a while and then we all start reaping the benefits of having new cultures in our midst.

R0bert
Posted by R0bert, Thursday, 29 December 2005 12:33:16 PM
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As regards the allegedly ‘disturbing news’ on racism in Switzerland, what Counsel writes is that “Even if you, your father, and your grandfather spent their entire lives in Switzerland you do not automatically qualify for Swiss citizenship.” What’s so ‘disturbing’ about that? Similar rules apply to Israel and no reasonable person would call Israel a ‘racist’ country – unless it is deemed racist to wish to retain your cultural and ethnic identity and to prevent your country from being balkanized. The Swiss, quite sensibly, want to remain the way they are – a civilized, peaceful and egalitarian European country. And if their citizenship rules help stave off the entry of the misogynist Muslim barbarians at the gates, so much the better. Three cheers to them!
As for Asians running the local Asian fast food shop , I could not think of a better management of such an entity.

Woolworths, Coles, Bi-Lo, Aldi , Duffys , Harris Farm and a plrthora of Farmers Markets provide a cheaper and fresher product that the long gone suburban Fruit and Vege shop.

Of course you are quite correct in the assumption of the host expecting the guest to behave.
These benefits you refer to;
Is this the culture of Cooking, Eating, Dancing , Singing , defecating in your neighbours home , blaming your neighbour for your bad behaviour , then killing your neighbour when they object?

I would agree with your assumption that there is a desire for humans to care for those with whom they have an affinity.

And yes , if you don’t want to fit in then fork off!
http://franksartor.info/
Posted by teamworktom, Thursday, 29 December 2005 2:15:17 PM
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Robert,

The problem does not lie with us - multiculturalism, democracy, law and order or the “Australian Way”....

Islam is not only a religion but also a Political, Social, Economical, Educational, and Judicial System. There is no room for separation of State and ‘mosque'. A Complete World in itself – that is taking over and spreading by stealth.

A True Muslim cannot integrate, assimilate, imitate, associate… anywhere - it's an innate problem of hate for anything non-islamic and everything the West stands for.

They believe they are the only pure people and all non-muslims are impure.

This is not my conspiracy it is the reality.

Quotes from 60 minutes July 05:

“There's no such thing as a Muslim having a non-Muslim friend, so a non-Muslim could be your associate but they can't be a friend. They're not your friend because they don't understand your religious principles and they cannot because they don't understand your faith.”

And
“…trust is sacred, and how can you put a sacred trust in the hands of a non-Muslim that doesn't understand what that sanctity is about?” (Sheikh Khalid Yasin)

“…we believe we have more rights than you because we choose Australia to be our country and you didn't. So don't come to me now because you are 'the majority' or you are in the power 'NOW 'to say to me, "Well, this is only my way or the highway". I won't accept that. (Sheikh Mohammad Omran)

And when asked: Do you see Australia having Muslim/Islam as the dominant religion here one day?
He replied arrogantly: Why not? What's wrong with that?

As for my contribution to solutions:

1. Crack down on all Islamic teaching (in kindys, schools, mosques, gyms, youth clubs etc…)that elicits any non-integration antisocial behaviour.
2. Their leadership must become accountable for their community.
3. Teach integration skills.
4. Introduce (and APPLY)zero tolerance laws and deport any culprits.
Posted by coach, Thursday, 29 December 2005 3:11:32 PM
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coach, I saw that episode of 60 minutes. Most of the quotes were from a visiting US preacher, I was disgusted by what I saw of his comments as well.

I do think you continue to make the mistake of assuming that all muslims will interpret their holy book the same way, it certainly does not happen in the christian church so I can't see why it should be assumed about muslims. Many christains are able to put aside the brutal content of the old testament and live lives which respect those around them, so do many muslims.

I have some agreement with your suggestions for dealing with the issues but don't see how "leaders" with no legal authority can be held accountable for actions of members of their communities, any more than christain leaders can be held accountable for the actions of christains, same deal for the "leaders" of any other informal community group in Australia.

Hold the leaders accountable for what they teach, but no person can be accountable for anothers actions. Some discussion about this concept on the student censorship thread.

Use those religious villification laws you hate so much to deal with teaching which damages Australian society and freedoms. Get the laws extended if necessary to any other teaching which might incite villification - teaching which suggests women are less than men, teaching which villifies gays etc.

R0bert
Posted by R0bert, Thursday, 29 December 2005 3:32:48 PM
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They call the world a cosmopolitan village, we appreciate the ease of traveling and migrating, as well as the variety and opportunities it offers. What we don’t welcome is the struggle to ensure our privacy and the safety of our immediate family.
As much as we like to be entertained by extreme and violent media reports, we would rather have our community left anonymous and secure.
It is very disturbing then, when the media suggest a dangerous criminal could have been our friendly neighbor. We would have liked him to be someone we can watch out for, someone we could identify easily and clearly, preferably the whole lot, and with a wave of our hand. For instance; People of Middle Eastern appearance would be easy to spot on a Sydney beachside eastern suburb. As for a motive; we will settle for a global Muslim hatred towards the west! A clear diagnosis, and It doesn’t help when a Muslim head of state contribute by providing extreme messages of violence.

We are afraid and hope to counter it by expressions of overconfidence and decisiveness in attacking the symbol of our fears, while on the other side there is a different sort of fear, one that is fueled by rejection and prejudice. Once the first blows are exchanged, however, and innocent people get hurt, the problem takes a new dimension, there is a conviction, and it is no more a moral issue but a reaction to violence.

Actions that are based on fear and suspicion end up with violence.
It is our duty and responsibility to our family and friends, as well as our future to prevent further escalation by any means possible and particularly by getting more involved and understand the issues and difficulties of the human fabric of the city we live in.
Posted by The Architect, Thursday, 29 December 2005 4:04:50 PM
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Ifran... it is indeed partly 'you' and most likely the circles u move in.
This forum is more the expression of the silent majority which is finding a voice.

You should thank Almighty God, that there are those among us who are actually seeking workable solutions, (not all of which you would see as in the interests of your own faith community.) RATHER than just saying and acting as 'most' average working class aussies would do when they read the kind of stuff in Sydney (gangs etc) I'm afraid there IS a very VERY strong level of 'racist' attitude towards 'non us' in the average aussie, but because he has only been conditioned by the media and gossip, his reaction is more likely to be knee jerk and volatile.

You would be surprised how peoples tone changes after a conversation about 'immigrants' when my wife roles up and I introduce her. They don't LIKE feeling 'racist' but they do have very real feelings of being intruded on, culturally.

If you continue to liken our thought out but passionate posts as 'nazism' then you will lose credibility totally. You seem to be resorting to one liners usually containing a 'name'. You can do better.

I am as ANGRY at people like Dean Mighell of the electrical trade union as I am at PC hyper multi-culturalists. He is identifying with one of the Merhi bros charged with Terrorism, and trying to turn it into a 'racism' exercise with a rally at Brunswick town hall in Feb just because Merhe is a shop steward with the ETU. Mighell is just USING the climate for personal and union interest promotion and gaining Arab Support in my opinion.

The Singapore government scrutinizes ALL Islamic teaching material. Mighell would have been jailed without trial indefinitely JUST for the 'thinking' behind his expressed views.

Please write to Mighell at the ETU and tell them what you think of this.
email etu@etu.asn.au
Article http://www.sundaytimes.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,7034,17666979%255E421,00.html
Posted by BOAZ_David, Thursday, 29 December 2005 6:12:59 PM
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teamworktom.

I am in no camp - unaligned in this instance any way; Dont subscribe to the for us or against way of thinking with which camp followers to often have to comply.
Posted by sneekeepete, Friday, 30 December 2005 10:01:13 AM
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R0bert;

This is regarding your post on Thursday, December 29.

I take issue with some of your characterisations of the motivations of those that are not keen on multiculturalism, but for some reason this is probably best left to lie. More interesting to me of late is the way certain arguments gain traction and become received wisdom. I feel that one of these is the concept of diversity being a self evidently good thing, especially in the context of immigration and demography.

In particular, you make reference to the inevitable speed bumps that occur with the introduction of new groups into society, followed by the reaping of benefits that invariably happen once they are sorted out. I have heard this elsewhere on occasion. I cant remember ever having heard what these benefits are. Please could you enumerate them in clear and concrete terms? By this I mean can you explain what the specific benefits are; without resorting to rhetoric or the usual feel-good claptrap that one hears of so much of.

For example, the introduction of new cultures is (as you point out) associated with a new class of restaurants to choose from. In the modern day and age, with cookbooks, lifestyle channels, the internet and so forth this hardly seems a particularly compelling reason to import a large group of people. Therefore, I am assuming there are other more serious reasons to do so.
Posted by Mr.P.Pig, Saturday, 31 December 2005 4:42:54 PM
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Mr P Pig, I expect my answer will be more vague and waffly than your would prefer. I have not written any reasearch topics on the subject but have have views on the topic. The things I write about are difficult to quantify, others may be better able to write about the economic benefits.

Firstly I work from the assumption that interaction with human beings is better than internet interaction, reading books etc. If not then the ideal life might be in an isolation cell somewhere with a good internet connection and a big screen TV.

Migrants who choose to be a part of our society enrich our society, as you mentioned they bring new restaurant opportunities but they also bring other aspects of their cultures. They bring viewpoints and outlooks which may not be readily available in a "monocultural" society. They bring ideas for different ways of doing things, they bring knowledge of other parts of the world for those who want to do so to learn.

Maybe not things you will appreciate but they are things which have enriched my life and based on my impression of posts from a number of other contributers (on various sides of the debate) I think migrants have enriched the lives of many Australians. For many the question is not about the value of migrants but rather if a particular group will on balance be beneficial to Australia.

I'm keen to see alternate viewpoints regarding the groupings of contributers. My posts on the topic where a broadbrush approach based on my understanding of what was happening in response to Irfan's comments. Understanding one anothers approach can be a significant help to working through this kind of issue.

R0bert
Posted by R0bert, Saturday, 31 December 2005 7:55:21 PM
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R0bert...
I expect my answer will be more vague and waffly than your would prefer

Well you are certainly correct on that score!
Posted by teamworktom, Saturday, 31 December 2005 8:06:41 PM
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teamworktom, that need not be all bad. Some of the abstract stuff is the stuff that makes a difference between having basic needs met and having a great life. How to you quantify the value of a hug from your child, the pleasure of some great music, a beautiful piece of art, the fun of spending hundreds of dollars to catch a few dollars worth of fish etc. Trying to describe the benefits and value of those types of things can be difficult, others may do so better than I can.

Likewise with the things which I most value about the friends I have made from other cultures. They broaden my experience of life, I can't put a dollar value on that just as I can't put a dollar value on a hug from my son but both are great and not to be missed when the opportunity arises.

I'll leave it to the economists to argue the economic benefits of immigration and multiculturalism, I don't know that stuff well enough to have a useful opinion, I do know some of the human stuff.

Have a great New Year all.

R0bert
Posted by R0bert, Saturday, 31 December 2005 8:47:19 PM
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Coach,

....and not taught by muslims.

Same as our uni's need a good clean out they are Marxist Training camps...

no teacher should push religion or politics on a student... either by preaching or selective biased presentations.
Posted by meredith, Saturday, 31 December 2005 10:45:06 PM
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My problem is, that if I am to assume that my culture is to be enriched by the influx of other cultures I have to ask myself: "In what way is my culture poor, so it has to be enriched?"

If it is academically or intellectually poor then the enrichment can come from within, there are a number or academics and intellectually who can help with this, without importing them from other cultures.

If it is spiritually poor then this is because the members of this culture have lost touch with their own spiritualism.

If it is poor in terms of food, well, all we need is the ingredients and the recipes. No one said that we need a new population to teach us how to cook.

Having said that, I am not against multiculturalism: I am against ALL those who claim that the host culture, that is the culture that I grew up in and that I am comfortable with, requires 'enriching'. To say this is to say that my culture is inferior to yours, and for that you can go to hell.
Posted by Hamlet, Sunday, 1 January 2006 12:34:41 AM
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R0bert - love the eloquence and thought you put into your posts.

Culture is not static - our culture of 100 years ago is very different to today's. It is a result of the intermingling of many diverse people over many years.

100 years from now it will be different again.

I can understand that changes to the status quo can appear to be threatening, however, as R0bert has stated "They broaden my experience of life, I can't put a dollar value on that just as I can't put a dollar value on a hug from my son but both are great and not to be missed when the opportunity arises."

We are experiencing change at an unprecedented rate - its tough, we often jump to conclusions and get things wrong. However, we will benefit from the latest immigrants just as we have benefited from previous influx.

For example; my dentist is Egyptian, my doctor Vietnamese - we have benefited medically, academically and in many other areas - one only has to look around to see.

Culture is an evolving process - thank goodness!
Posted by Scout, Sunday, 1 January 2006 8:42:40 AM
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Of Course!

But the changes must be consensual.......

In the case of Australia they are being imposed upon the greater number...
Posted by teamworktom, Sunday, 1 January 2006 9:23:07 AM
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One of the nicest things in my life are the interactions I have with people of different culture, in business and socially. Most of my closest friends are from different cultures, I love it. Some of the saddest things in my life are the attempted interactions with people of religion, who have but one subject to discuss and do it badly.

We fix this, by starting at the bottom and changing our education system to a truly secular one, that doesn't teach religion except in philosophy and then on a historical factual basis. We tax religion, no more free ride. No support for private schools until all our public schools have the best facilities and standards available. We first educate children in life and how to live it responsibly and happily. How to be individuals yet part of society. Then once they know how to live, they learn what they need to make their life as they would like it.

We don't allow anyone to come or remain in this country that cannot speak adequate English. We don't allow any immigrant to stay, if they are out of work for more than 1 month in a year and we don't give them any welfare except health for the first 5 years.

All immigrants should be placed throughout the country with work and restricted from moving for 5 years. By doing this people will have to assimilate into the community and locals will know that these people will be a working responsible part of their community for at least 5 years. It would reduce crime, integrate people and improve our country. Rather than now it is destroying it.

Immigrants that commit crimes, instant removal after they serve their sentence, with no appeal to the removal. It should be 10 years before citizenship can be obtained. We must change the approach to educating everyone that grows here, or comes here.

“Culture is an evolving process - thank goodness!” Very true Scout, but religion is not an evolving process and thats the problem.
Posted by The alchemist, Sunday, 1 January 2006 10:17:28 AM
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Hamlet,

You’re post above…

That is (exactly) how I feel as well.

Our secular freedom aims to leave ones decision on the fate of their soul in their own hands.

Democracy gives all people a chance at life. We are free to gain headway in Australian society or fall to victim status.

A poster recently said this to Ifran about his constant accusations we are nazi brown-shirts.

“Most of this group are not racist/nazi sympathisers etc but rather concerned about protecting a lifestyle they enjoy for themselves and their kids.
Suggestions are welcome about how to ease the fears of this group.”

A way to ease “fear” or resentment is to:

1 Not assume we are unsound or in need of “help” with fear, we do comprehend very well.

2 If we vote and win against PC and multicultural laxity, understand our decision to do so was not a flaw that needed fixing.

To stress my point further-

A delightful example of Australian democracy is the freedom it offers to the oppressed.
Under Aussie law, an Australian muslim woman has the right to:

1 throw off the black sack thingie.

2 strut in bikinis.

3 divorce and claim property.

4 charge a man for rape-battery.

5 have a career.

6 criticise, ridicule, draw, publish and sell pictures of allah, even naked ones with him posing in the arms of big fat cuddly pig.

7 have sex with anyone, male, female or in-between, even tie up, boss and whip naked men… as much and as varied as wanted.

8 Join Animal Lib and have pet pigs and dogs.

9 go to the pub and get rolling drunk…

All this is here in my culture, if she feels like diversifying.

PS

On the subject of probation for immigrants yesterday I was speaking to a Philippines friend. He is already on 2 years probation. So maybe this stuff is in place already.
Posted by meredith, Sunday, 1 January 2006 12:06:32 PM
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I have friends and workmates from other cultures as well, and I appreciate their culture. I do not consider their cultures to be either superior nor inferior to mine.

I have heard and read immigrants stating that Australia did not have a culture prior to the post WW2 migrant influx.

To me this is insulting in the extreme. Australia may not have had the sort of culture that these people wanted it to have, but it did have a culture, one which marked out Australians as being different to to our Anglo cousins of English, Scottish, Welsh, Irish, New Zealand and Canadian backgrounds.

The influx of people from different cultures has changed Australian society, in some ways for the better, in other ways for the worse. Australian culture would have continued to evolved without this influx anyway.

Australia in 1950 was a very different place to Australia in 1900.

Australia has always had a 'rich' culture, it is just that some people simply cannot see, or refuse to see, that richness.

The re-emeergence of Anzac Day as a commemoration is now not so much about the commemoration of war, but of the underlying culture that produced the heroes and heroines of 1914 - 1945.

Don't tell me that my culture needs to be 'enriched' from outside.

You may work towards changing it, that is your right in a democratically based society, but remember that you can only try to work those changes because of the pre-existing richness of democracy, rule of law, equality before the law and respect for individual liberties that you found when you arrived here, and which were probably the main reason for your desire to settle here in the first place.
Posted by Hamlet, Sunday, 1 January 2006 12:52:03 PM
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Scout, you said

["Culture is an evolving process"] and
["We are experiencing change at an unprecedented rate"]

Did you realize that in both of your statements you expressed them in the passive ? a way which suggests we are just observing bystanders while all this 'un-orchestrated' change takes place around us.

Have you not noticed the sentiments being expressed by a number of posters suggesting that change requires our 'consent' ?

SOURCES OF CHANGE
It should be clear from a common sense viewpoint that no change just 'happens' it is caused to happen. It can be caused by highly motived interest groups, like the ETU with Dean Mighell having an 'anti racism' rally on Feb 9 at Brunswick town hall (in reality to gather support from the Arab Community for socialist objectives)...

Change can be brought about by government policy. (which itself can be initiated by the above highly motivated groups) Even by climatic change etc.

When Cruz Bustamente stood for the 'Hispanic Vote' In the USA elections, he was not representing the interests of the non Hispanics, he had an 'Hispanic-centric' agenda for CHANGE.

When the DEMOCRATS in the USA manipulated things so that non union workers would be SACKED, that was deliberate calculated 'change'.

But suggesting change 'just happens' is naivity in the extreme.
I suppose this is why you have the same "Its just happening" approach to the inroads of political Islam here. Nothing could be further from the truth.

I think you lost a lot of your already tarnished remaining credibility with that post. You seem disconnected from reality.

Hamlet & Meredith etc are correct. Australia did/does/and will continue to have, its own unique culture based on its foundation as a nation and its original ethno-cultural mix (74%) The other 26% are many many ethnicities, none of which is individually significant in terms of impact of the 74%. If they were, we have to ask 'Who' is pulling such strings.... and why ?
Posted by BOAZ_David, Sunday, 1 January 2006 7:02:36 PM
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Hamlet, my confidence in the great things about this country is not so fragile that it only holds if I assume that we have attained perfection. Part of the reason our country is so great is that we have learned from others, both the good and bad. We have looked at the mistakes others make and tried to reject the worst of them, we have picked up on many of the good things happening elsewhere. That process needs to continue if we want to stay a great nation. It's no insult to look for further enrichment unless you assume that is only good if where you start from is horribly flawed, not a position I hold.

Likewise it is false vanity to assume that we are doing the best that can be done in every aspect of our nation and that there is nothing to learn from others. You need not assume that other cultures are in total better than ours to learn from them, rather assume that all cultures have strengths and weaknesses.

Enrichment comes through different idea's and diversity. It is no insult to this country to be willing to pick and choose from the best that the rest of the world has to offer.

Scout, thanks again. It does not often feel eloquent at this end of the keyboard.

Everybody on the cultural change issue. Cultural change in a free society is something which will happen to some extent regardless of our individual views. We may seek to influence the direction of that change but we can never stop it. In my view one of the best safeguards against extremism in cultural change is diversity, gather influences from a broad range of sources, not just those with the biggest budget to promote their idea's or those with the most radical agendas. Attempts to stifle cultural change are the mark of oppresive regimes, not the mark of this great country. Rather we should be seeking to ensure that the changes which occur retain the best of what we have.

R0bert
Posted by R0bert, Sunday, 1 January 2006 9:04:56 PM
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R0bert,

What is this diversity krap? and where did you get this waffle from?

Attempts to stifle cultural change are the mark of oppresive regimes, not the mark of this great country.

Have you some reference as to its integrity?

Your whole dialogue is reminiscent the cultural cringe, of a person with an inherent dislike of themselves; what you need to do is accept yourself for what you are.

Of course you may just be a camp follower of that great big melting pot!

Take a pinch of white man
Wrap him up in black skin
Add a touch of blue blood
And a little bitty bit of red indian boy
Oh like a curly latin kinkies
Oh lordy, lordy, mixed with yellow chinkees, yeah
You know you lump it all together
And you got a recipe for a get along scene
Oh what a beautiful dream
If it could only come true, you know, you know

What we need is a great big melting pot
Big enough enough enough to take
The world and all it’s got
And keep it stirring for
A hundred years or more
And turn out coffee coloured people by the score

Rabbis and the friars
Vishnus and the gurus
We got the beatles or the sun god
Well it really doesn’t matter
What religion you choose
And be thankful little mrs. graceful
You know that livin’ could be tasteful
We should all get together in a lovin machine
I think I’ll call up the queen
It’ s only fair that she knows, you know, you know

What we need is a great big melting pot
Big enough enough enough to take
The world and all it’s got
And keep it stirring for
A hundred years or more
And turn out coffee coloured people by the score

Coffee coloured people
Coffee coloured people
Coffee coloured people by the score
Posted by teamworktom, Sunday, 1 January 2006 9:27:51 PM
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R0bert:

can I take that as a no then?

Lets agree to ignore the economics aspect, this is probably best left to the economists to argue over, they even believe they know what is going on.

The point I wish to make is summed up in Scout's post when she makes the claim about her life being enriched by having an Egyptian doctor etc.

This is a reformulation of the question by way of offering an answer, holding up that which is to be proved and claiming that it is the proof. It is not.

Having an Egyptian doctor doesn't prove the benefits of multiculturalism, it demonstrates the benefit of having a doctor. What is required is that she show that an Egyptian doctor makes things better than a local, see? This is what is required to make the claim of the reapable benefits of multiculturalism hold water.

This is a separate issue from the pragmatic immigration that occurs to fill skills shortages.

It seems an important point to me because it is the non negative that props up one side of the argument.

To simplify. If you are given to a xenophobic outlook then you can attack multiculturalism from the perspective of the sins that occur when undesirables are imported. To counter, those that are pro immigration can point to the detractors as bigots, racists nazis and so on. Both arguments work on highlighting the negative. Generally speaking however, the pro side claim to hold the moral high ground via their positive outlook, the benefits. Do you see. Hence it is reasonable to expect them justify this optimism.
Posted by Mr.P.Pig, Sunday, 1 January 2006 9:41:00 PM
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Mr.P.Pig, don't take it as a no, rather take it that your experience, mindset etc have not equiped you to understand the benefits (or my attempt at explaining them). Try considering the benefits of something in your life which you consider important but which you can't identify an economic benefit for and which sometimes bring pain, most of us have them and often they are some of the best things in our lives. How would you explain that to someone who does not understand?

You will note that except in the case of some of those who fly their colours very high I generally stay away from the approach of calling detractors "bigots, racists nazis and so on" - there are only a few posters here who seem to clearly fit any of those categories. I rarely bother posting to the worst extremists, their seems little chance of a meaningful dialogue.

In case there is misunderstanding I'm not in favor of hands off approaches to those who come to this country and do the wrong thing - none of the benefits to society that I know of apply if the migrants stay within groupings of people of their own ethnic background or spend their time breaking our laws. We should be doing our best to deal with those situations. I'd like to seen some constructive migrant feedback to some of the suggestions BD and others have posted. Some of those suggestions seem great if we can ensure that adequate social support is available to new starters when it is most necessary.

I doubt that a persons origins are an adequate test of the kind of person thay are. Those who choose to leave the land of their birth are hardly likely to be typical of the population of that country, those who leave a country where their religion is predominate and move to a country where it is not are hardly likely to be typical of that religion.

R0bert
Posted by R0bert, Monday, 2 January 2006 9:06:50 AM
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Don't take it as a no, rather take it that your experience, mindset etc have not equipped you to understand the benefits (or my attempt at explaining them). Try considering the benefits of something in your life which you consider important but which you can't identify an economic benefit for and which sometimes bring pain, most of us have them and often they are some of the best things in our lives. How would you explain that to someone who does not understand?

Irrational Emotions?

You will note that except in the case of some of those who fly their colours very high I generally stay away from the approach of calling detractors "bigots, racists nazis and so on" - there are only a few posters here who seem to clearly fit any of those categories.
Correct : You use analogy and Homily

In case there is misunderstanding I'm not in favor of hands off approaches to those who come to this country and do the wrong thing - none of the benefits to society that I know of apply if the migrants stay within groupings of people of their own ethnic background or spend their time breaking our laws. We should be doing our best to deal with those situations. I'd like to seen some constructive migrant feedback to some of the suggestions BD and others have posted.

Everyone know the answer: A more discriminatory immigration selection process.

I doubt that persons origins are an adequate test of the kind of person thay are. Those who choose to leave the land of their birth are hardly likely to be typical of the population of that country, those who leave a country where their religion is predominate and move to a country where it is not are hardly likely to be typical of that religion.

The past 30 years of indiscriminate immigration from Middle Eastern counties are a self evident this last statement is absolute bollocks, and you have like Rip Van Winkle been asleep.
Posted by teamworktom, Monday, 2 January 2006 11:21:08 AM
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Yes, by all means let us pick and choose what we wish to assimilate into our culture.

But there are those groups who deny that there is, an Australian culture, that it is just a blank sheet upon which a new culture can be constructed.

All cultures are constructs, but there comes a time when constructs take solid form. It is interesting that none of the cultural influences from outside the host culture have been called constructs, just the host one. That somehow an ethnic culture from somewhere else is more authentic, and therefore more valuable, than the host culture.

To give classic example, from food: we eat so much South East Asian food containing chilli that we assume that chilli has been part of Asian cuisine for millenia. This is incorrect, chilli is not indigenous to Eurasia at all, it came from the Americas in the 16th century, Asian food with chilli is a construct.

So why do we assume that all the other cultural imports into Australia are ancient and therefore authentic and more valuable than the pre-existing culture?

If I wish to enjoy the beach in a typical Australian way why should someone else's choice to interfere with this be more valid than my own? Why should the ‘right’ to play soccer on a beach over-ride the rights of those whose culture wants peace and quiet on a beach? Was playing soccer on the beach part of Middle Eastern culture? I don't think so, it is a construct, and one that can be reconstructed somewhere else.

Was playing loud music by boom boxes on a beach a typical attribute of Middle Eastern culture? It is too a construct and not part of authentic Middle Eastern culture.

If I chose to enjoy the music of the Spanish Renaissance or ‘foreign’ movies then that is my choice. However I will fight against any other culture seeking to use legal concepts and justifications, such as Sharia law, in this country, or those who claim a cultural right to impinge upon my personal liberties and the liberties of those around me.
Posted by Hamlet, Monday, 2 January 2006 11:26:01 AM
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R0bert:
I feel so hurt, sniff sniff, I may cry. I feel as though I was attempting to engage you in constructive dialogue from within a framework of understanding and ...

I obviously must go and do the hard work, improve my ability to understand the more subtle intangibles that characterise this whole topic.

Or maybe not.
Posted by Mr.P.Pig, Monday, 2 January 2006 12:12:54 PM
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I feel saddened and frustrated when I read a lot of what is posted here. There is a strong thread of hatred and intolerance running through some of these comments, and at the risk of incensing the posters involved, it does make me feel ashamed to be Australian I'm afraid.

Some of you seem to have completely lost sight of our common humanity. If the attitudes expressed here are widespread no wonder many immigrants have difficulty feeling accepted. Fortunately, this doesn't appear to be the case in the part of the country in which I live, but then again being of Anglo-Saxon appearance am I really in a position to judge? I've never known what it's like to look and feel different from the majority group.

A Brisbane woman waiting at the lights to cross the street was standing next to a woman of Middle Eastern appearance with young children who were wilting a little with the heat. The Australian woman smiled and commented that the children looked tired. The other woman smiled back and agreed but also looked surprised. She said she had been in Australia for 18 months and that this was the first time an Australian had smiled at her and spoken to her in a friendly and welcoming manner.

No wonder people of middle-eastern appearance are tending to congregate with others from their homeland. I'm sure we would too if faced with this level of indifference and hostility.
Posted by Bronwyn, Tuesday, 3 January 2006 12:02:53 AM
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Bronwyn,

The PC has done so much to answer for. PC has hijacked impotent issues with a complete lack of credibility and hate-mongering. No one respects the environmentalists anymore thanks to the Greens.

Any PCeer that comes on here to comment never has substance. And are so out of touch with reality. I’m not saying this to have a go, it’s truly a shock everytime I read a post by one of your lot.

You will find many of the people you are condescendingly judging as racist have lots of different races of people in their lives on all levels, from love to trust in business.

Does that give you a clue at all why we think PC is full of morons?

A PC poster recently said this to Ifran about his constant accusations we are nazi brown-shirts.

“Most of this group are not racist/nazi sympathisers etc but rather concerned about protecting a lifestyle they enjoy for themselves and their kids.
Suggestions are welcome about how to ease the fears of this group.”

A way to ease “fear” or resentment is to:

1 Not assume we are unsound or in need of “help” with fear, we do comprehend very well.

2 If we vote and win against PC and multicultural laxity, understand our decision to do so was not a flaw that needed fixing.

Your story of the woman on the street, how many stories are there of Anglo girls being spat bashed raped by islam?

Auusies don’t like this, more so moderate islams absolute lack of admittance and protection of its criminals… do you comprehend?

We are sick of interfaith meetings, all they do is legislate silence, victimize muslims to such a sickening degree. Why don’t you go help one of Anglo girls who was raped for 3 days solid and has had her soul ripped out. Find out what a victim really is.

What you need to come to terms with is the majority of the world are anti islam for dam good reasons.
Posted by meredith, Tuesday, 3 January 2006 1:09:29 AM
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Bwonwyn:

Such deliciously haughty affectation, this is impressive. And that anecdote too, I feel suitably chastened for my lowbrow tendencies.

“and at the risk of incensing the posters involved”

Actually I was feeling a bit frisky after reading that,  are you seeing anyone at the moment?

“I’ve never known what it’s like to look and feel different from the majority group.”

The obvious remedy for this is to get out more and mix with a more diverse group of people. You might learn something.

So, here is the deal, why not act as a force for good and educate the plebs. Could you perhaps explain the clear and obvious benefits of multiculturalism. You know, clearly and obviously. Without resorting to mawkish sentimentality of faux sociological claptrap? In terms that the average mouth breathing troglodyte (me) can understand.

Please!
Posted by Mr.P.Pig, Tuesday, 3 January 2006 1:54:35 AM
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Bronwyn

You use your experience with the mossie woman at the traffic lights, may I use mine? In Germany I worked with a number of mossie women from Turkey and the Balkans and had a wonderful encounter with an Iranian exile. In Australia I was friends with two lovely Turkish women and in my work with the National Parks sometimes managed to talk alone with scarf clad ladies before their male relatives inevitably 'came to the rescue'.

Their overall impression of islam and their culture to them as mossie women.

It sucked. Common comments......

Mohammed: rapist, murderer, paedophile, .

The hijab: In Australia, 'Have you ever tried swimming in the effing things?!?!?'

Mossie men: Generally lazy, immature, spoiled.

At all times I played the innocent, 'but isn't islam is wonderful?' This often brought looks of incredulity, sometimes disgust.

One aussie mossie woman even gave me a broad but fairly detailed overview of the rampant criminality her culture, mossie leb, practices in Oz and how their crappy reputation is so thoroughly deserved. She said this with shame and feared for the 'few decent ones amongst us' (her words) as they'll inevitably lumped in with the rest when society in general finally decides to take action.

Anecdotal I know but nevertheless, illuminating.
Posted by CARNIFEX, Tuesday, 3 January 2006 6:04:19 AM
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Dear Bronwyn,

I too, was deeply touched by what Mr.P.Pig attributes as your deliciously haughty affectation even if it was somewhat confected, and what a much more uncharitable racist type person might describe as P.C. rubbish.
What does concern me was the apparent feelings of inadequacy which are manifested by the self confessed emotion of shame felt in relation to your nationality, through no fault or abhorrent behaviour of your own, or another, but the subjective interpretation of another’s behaviour or even more serious, on the basis of; the shame tainted perception of the subjective perception of an aliens interpretation of our unique Australian culture.
I was also concerned by your inclination to Judge, even if an attempt to balance your personal prejudices was made.
In the subject refer to as the smile, I am reminded of the McDonalds Maxim: If a customer does not have a smile, give them one of yours. Usually you will get one back.
Unfortunately this would be difficult if the face was covered by a veil or Hajib?

No wonder people of middle-eastern appearance are tending to congregate with others from their homeland. I'm sure we would too if faced with this level of indifference and hostility.

At least Bronwyn, you were honest enough to acknowledge this inherent insular and pack mentality which is the very antithesis of the professed object of multiculturalism.

You can take my current survey on multiculturalism @

http://www.franksartor.org/orangenet/
Posted by teamworktom, Tuesday, 3 January 2006 6:40:01 AM
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Dear Bron

Our concerns are not due to either 'hate' or rejection of common humanity.

I find myself bewildered and scratching my head at the number of times people of the Left,Green,Democrat or PC political flavor incessantly attribute 'hate' to those who have a different view of how society should run. Its almost as if they all went to 'marxist propoganda school' .

We have common humanity, NOT common race, language or culture. The prevailing cultural flavor in Australia, is English/Irish/Scottish/Northern Euro in that order. (ABS) with around 74% of us in just the first 3 of that grouping.

Common humanity is NOT common culture. Cultures can only do 1 of 2 things whent they encounter each other. Where incompatable difference exists, they either bow or rule.

Now, in good PC spirit. it would be extreme bad manners for a small group to insist that the LARGE pre-existing group accomodate practices and cultural norms of the smaller group which are in conflict with the existing.

One example is the Emeregency Services handbook on cultural approaches to ethnic diversity.
It SHOULD be as follows:
All would be migrants are TOLD about how things are here, and they come KNOWING they will be treated thus and so by all and sundry. They should agree to adapt or not come. Would YOU goto a mosque in Pakistan with your spagettie string top on and miniskirt ?
When they gave you the good word about 'innappropriateness' would you harangue them as 'intolerant' ? I hardly think so. Why then berate us?

We do NOT tolerate Domestic violence, so why should a Muslim family with an abusive father/husband be treated 'softly softly' when it is so vile ?

So, I wonder 'why' it is that some people have the view that ethnic minorities share the idea 'common,tolerant humanity' when in fact they do not !

Let me ask you a question. "Do you believe that Ethnic minorities are NOT primarily concerned with advancing the interests of their own communties irrespective of how it might impact on other cultural interests" ?
Posted by BOAZ_David, Tuesday, 3 January 2006 7:31:44 AM
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Ive dealt with ISLAM once before at Singelton when in the ARMY. We had the pleasure of hosting the thieving lying dirty bloody Kosovar refugees if this any indication of the calibre of people of ISLAM trust me we dont want them here full stop, bunch of ingrates very similar to thier LEB mates in Sydney.

All mozzies should be deported from our sunny shores with a $20000 thanks for coming ex-gratia payment.
Slobodan Milosevic should freed with a full pardon and left to get back to his valuable work and our lefties and journos sent to help him with same. This country is a bloody disgrace, why are we left pandering to such a weak gutted race like ARABS of all people. SCUM of the bloody earth. Wake up Australia theres a war brewing and its about to get savage.
Posted by SCOTTY, Tuesday, 3 January 2006 9:11:09 PM
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merideth, sorry my suggestion to Irfan that those who are concerned about the behaviour of some lebanese youth in Sydney are not mostly racist/nazi sympathisers. I guess I could have been wrong but I really don't think that most of the posters are Nazi's.

If expressing a genuniely held belief is PC then count me in.
If refusing to label an entire group based on the actions of a small part of that group is PC count me in.
If a preference for courtesy and genuine dialog is PC count me in.
If seeking solutions rather than yelling slogans is PC count me in.
If discussing the issue openly rather than "playing the man" is PC count me in.

I'd never considered myself PC before, I've shared some of the right wing adversion to the abuses of it which have harmed our society. I've been guilty of throwing the baby out with the bathwater. Thankfully you and some others have provided a counterpoint to extreme PC which I had not paid enough attention to previously. That has taught me that the version of PC which is about fairness and treating others with respect is something I value.

I've still got no time for the version which is about deceit and protecting the interests of wrong doers, it's just as ugly as the persistant denegration of whole groups and some of the other tactics I see daily on these threads.

R0bert
Posted by R0bert, Tuesday, 3 January 2006 9:17:11 PM
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Again, I would ask what is wrong with someone having the conviction of beliefs in Racism or Fascism?
Posted by teamworktom, Tuesday, 3 January 2006 9:23:01 PM
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Scotty, I feel sorry for you, because I have had an experience very different to yours in my experience with many people (not all) of Islamic faith. I work, and have friendships, with hard working, devout and patriotic, to Australia, people of Islamic background.

Teamworktom.

I guess from your post that you don't really understand Fascism to start with. Fascism is where a conglomerate of business and the government, acting in corporate ways, governs even the smallest area of personal life, not only the way you act, but the way that you think. Under the Nazi version of Fascism the individual is totally subverted by the state. You, as an individual, becomes a meaningless concept. That is why so many good men and women died to defeat Fascism.

As for racism - well there used to be two commonly used words - racism merely meant the description of the characteristics of race - for instance - pygmies are small, and some ethnic groupings are more likely to suffer from sickle cell aenemia. Racism was never about value.

Racialism, the other word, however, was about value. It talked about one race being superior to another.

No one 'race' is superior to any other in ways that matter, so that the holding of racialist views actually diminishes the person who holds those views. By all means hold racialist views, but remember that you are drastically limiting your view of the world.

I would suggest reading 'Guns, Germs and Steel' by Jared Diamond, but I cannot see you doing that.
Posted by Hamlet, Tuesday, 3 January 2006 10:46:06 PM
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Robert

re read your words,

“Most of this group are not racist/nazi sympathisers etc but rather concerned about protecting a lifestyle they enjoy for themselves and their kids.
Suggestions are welcome about how to ease the fears of this group.”

…and re-read my response…

”A way to ease “fear” or resentment is to:

1 Not assume we are unsound or in need of “help” with fear, we do comprehend very well.

2 If we vote and win against PC and multicultural laxity, understand our decision to do so was not a flaw that needed fixing.”

As you can see I didn’t disagree we aren’t Nazis, I instead gave you some suggestions about your need to have our fears eased.

Gain comprehension we decide and vote for ourselves.

Your persistent insistence, that you would like to help us accept, forgive or rebuild multicult is becoming like a dirty old man's stray finger.

You are blatantly reverse racist. You identified the serious concerns of Australians over islam, and asked then asked a islamist who repeatedly calls us “browncoat nazis” how to ease our “fears”.

More like Ifran wasn’t towing the PC line, by repeatedly stating his hatred for us.

Guess what we knew.

This is what you don’t seem to catch, it’s not about fluffy manners, it’s about a very ugly situation worldwide with islam, and people are not flawed for doing something about it.

The multicult is dead, we have to deal with the mess. Not keep bandaiding it.
Posted by meredith, Tuesday, 3 January 2006 11:03:03 PM
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CARNIFEX

I agree with you, Islam in its extreme form is repressive for women. Not for all though - many practise a more moderate form of Islam and manage to blend it quite successfully with life in a secular or Western society.

You may have read me wrongly, I'm no apologist for Islam. I agree with most posters here that Islamic extremism is a huge threat to the progress of peace and democracy. I part company from most of them though in that I don't see it as any less divisive or dangerous than any other religion practised in an extreme or narrow form. Christian fundamentalism I think is as much a menace to civic progress as is radical Islam. For me, the best society will always be a secular one - where people are free to practice the religion of their choice (preferably in private where the rest of us don't have to know about it!) and without it impacting on the functioning of the state in any way.

If we work toward creating that sort of society, as we once did, and make newcomers feel welcomed and part of that society, they will gradually over time adopt our more moderate approach. Your anecdotes only further illustrate to me that most migrants who settle here do want to be part of the Australian way of life.

BOAZ_David

I agree with you - we should not have to tolerate cultural practices we find abhorrent. My point is that those engaging in such practices are a minority. The vast majority of immigrants are decent people and no different to any of us - they want jobs, family, friends and happiness just like we do and first and foremost they want to become part of Australian society.

A small minority of immigrants is creating trouble at the moment, I agree with you, and we shouldn't condone this in any way. My point though is that if these people had been treated differently from the beginning they might not feel the need to isolate themselves into separate and hostile enclaves.
Posted by Bronwyn, Tuesday, 3 January 2006 11:09:00 PM
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R0bert:

perhaps a bex and lie down before the aneurysm gets you.

In the meantime read this.

http://www.newcriterion.com/archives/24/01/its-the-demography/
Posted by Mr.P.Pig, Tuesday, 3 January 2006 11:31:05 PM
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Hamlet, we all in the real world feel sorry for you in your insulated little capsule of MC/PC land of woolly thinking, I can only surmise you spent to much time and our tax payer funded $ on your education to have been exposed to anything bordering on reality. Im not an educated man, simple maybe but not stupid.

Your reference to Guns, germs and steele, the author seems to suggest that had it not been for geographical differences that perhaps third world races of today may have had the same advances as the western peoples. Dont think so have been to same crappy places the author has and gotta tell you it wasnt going to happen then and sure isnt happening now. Point in fact, when hurricane Katrina burst through New Orleans the locals formerley of the Rift Valley(AFRICA) reverted to type. Lower IQ greater propensity for violence. Does not seem conducive to great advancment for mankind. No room for fence sitters MATE...
Posted by SCOTTY, Wednesday, 4 January 2006 12:15:04 AM
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Mr.P.Pig

You missed the point of my earlier statement - “I’ve never known what it’s like to look and feel different from the majority group.”

Contrary to your uncalled-for putdown that the "obvious remedy for this is to get out more and mix with a more diverse group of people" in order that I "might learn something", I have spent many years interacting with people from all parts of the world. I have learnt much from them and it is that learning, as well as study, that informs the views I've expressed here.

The fact that I have always been from the majority group (most Anglo-Saxon Australians living in Australia are!) doesn't mean I don't mix in a diverse group. Your logic is as flawed as your attitude.
Posted by Bronwyn, Wednesday, 4 January 2006 12:37:36 AM
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Mr.P.Pig, the link goes to a suspended account - I guess that was not your plan.

merideth, have a read over some of my discussions with Irfan from just before the riots. I have a different approach to Irfan on dealing with these issues, I think I understand why he has got so sick of the broadbrush comments being applied to most muslims but disagree with what appears to be denial of the problem with some Lebanese youths in Sydney. I don't agree with PC when it stops us addressing a real issue, I do agree with it when it limits the false labelling of innocents, quite simple really.

Maybe "fear" is the wrong word for what some of you are feeling about the ability of muslims to integrate into Australian society. If you want to provide a better explaination of what motivates you to help those of who don't think the problem applies to the bulk of muslims understand your viewpoint please do so, I'd like to see it.

The list I supplied was my best guess, I have not seen anything else that looks like a serious attempt to do so. If you are not afraid that a lifestyle you value is being damaged by immigration and some who will not fit in what then is the issue?

R0bert
Posted by R0bert, Wednesday, 4 January 2006 6:20:51 AM
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Hamlet,

I did not ask for your definition of Fascism or Racism, Your personal views on either, if You agree with the philosophy of either or a suggested reading list of intellectually derelict academics - my question was:

Again, I would ask what is wrong with someone having the conviction of beliefs in Racism or Fascism
Posted by teamworktom, Wednesday, 4 January 2006 7:42:21 AM
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Teamworktom:

You asked:

Again, I would ask what is wrong with someone having the conviction of beliefs in Racism or Fascism ?

I will reply in simpler measures. It is not 'wrong' to have the conviction of beliefs in Racism and Fascism, however, any application of these beliefs, and true conviction will always lead to application, is destructive to the personal rights and liberties of others.

Drawing an analogy. Someone who simply holds a conviction (but takes no action whatsoever) that child pornography is not harmful is doing no wrong, except to themselves.

However, when they advocate, from their convictions, that child pornography is not harmful, or go further and obtain, create or distribute child porn, once again, working out of their convictions, their actions are detrimental to others.

So, by all means, if someone wishes to hold conviction of belief about Fascism, Racism or any other ism then there is no problem. But when that person advocates, promotes or takes any other action in regard to their belief that disadvantages or harms others, society has the obligation to deal with these actions, within the rule of law.

Conviction usually leading to action, and in these cases I hope to a different form of 'conviction'.
Posted by Hamlet, Wednesday, 4 January 2006 10:47:26 AM
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R0bert:

That link had expired overnight but the author has reposted elsewhere.

http://www.opinionjournal.com/extra/?id=110007760

Bwonwyn:

methinks you do protest too much, it is poor form.

Beyond which, I notice you can't explain the benefits of multiculturalism either.

Pretty illogical to be defending it then, wouldn't you say?
Posted by Mr.P.Pig, Wednesday, 4 January 2006 11:30:21 AM
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Piggy

Of course I could explain the benefits, if that was critical to the point I was making when I entered this thread, which it wasn't.

Besides, it's a bit like asking me to explain the benefits of fresh air. To me, they are just so obvious that I see little point in doing it.

Anyway, it's too late to unscamble the egg now. What exactly are you suggesting? That we send all immigrants back home? Or that we let them stay but halt further immigration? Or that migrants have to pass some sort of test if they are to stay?

You've said it's illogical to defend multiculturalism without explaining its benefits. I say it's just as illogical (if it ever was!) to criticize something without offering an alternative.
Posted by Bronwyn, Thursday, 5 January 2006 12:56:12 AM
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Hamlet!
I will reply in simpler measures. It is not 'wrong' to have the conviction of beliefs in Racism and Fascism.

So is your intolerance to those who hold an opposite view indicative of the very behaviour you hypocritically condemn?
Thank You

Bronwyn

You replied to Mr. P. Pig.

You've said it's illogical to defend multiculturalism without explaining its benefits. I say it's just as illogical (if it ever was!) to criticize something without offering an alternative.

I do not think that Multiculturalism is actually being criticised, more like being condemned.

Anyway, it's too late to unscramble the egg now. – Which egg do you refer to?

The solution is obvious , we exercise or sovereign right in deciding who enters this land , and how those are here are required to behave.
Posted by teamworktom, Thursday, 5 January 2006 7:10:06 AM
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Mr.P.Pig, thanks for the updated link. It was an interesting read and clarified some of the issues which have been raised on these threads but obscured amongst the religious wars and other sub plots.

It would be interesting to see the article up for discussion here, it appears to take a broarder look at the issues than most I've seen.

Initial impressions are that I have a greater level of confidence in the robustness of western society than the author. If we can ensure that migrants are exposed to our society/culture in a broad (and friendly) manner I think that most will find extremism is not so appealing.

To ensure that migrants don't exclude themselves
- place responsibilty and accountability on those moving here. BD has put up some suggestions. I'd also like to see some input from some of the muslim spokespeople regarding what they think would work.
- ensuring adequate support structures are in place for migrants. On the surface there would appear to be plenty but if governments run true to form it is probably lots of dollars being spent on the wrong services.
- A rethink of how we deal with childhood education. Should we allow any child to be educated in a manner which does not expose them to ideas contrary to their parents beliefs? Home education, christian schools, muslim schools all have the risk that almost everybody a child comes in contact with shares their parents beliefs - not very broad.

The issue with locals excluding migrants is more difficult. Mirko's article is trying to point in the direction and as you said it lacks detail on how we get there. For my part, doing what I can to ensure that migrants get to see as much as I can help with of the good things of our culture. That they feel welcomed and encouraged to share in our society as well as share the things they hold dear with me.

We also need some serious research into the factors which contribute to extremism.

R0bert
Posted by R0bert, Thursday, 5 January 2006 7:57:13 AM
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Teamworktom

By all means, people can hold any views or convictions that they wish, in our society, they can even talk privately about them under certain circumstances.

But when people who hold those convictions try telling me, and others, that their beliefs are the only correct ones they place themselves in a position to be disagreed with and argued against, even condemned.

A person may hold deep sexual desires for his mother, sister or daughter. So long as he does nothing about those desires and keeps the discussion of them between himself and his therapist there is no problem. When he starts arguing publically, for his 'right' to have sexual relations with those people the society has an obligation to argue against those claims. If he takes it upon himself to ignore society's rules, mores and laws and acts upon those desires then he has to face the punishment that society imposes.

so - if a person keeps his Fascist or racist views to himself or between him and his therapist - no problems.

If he starts arguing in favour of Fascism then he opens himself up to attack on that basis.

If he takes action to try to impose Fascism on the rest of us - well, we have the right to resist.

And anyway - in a Fascist state you will be TOLD what convictions that you can hold.
Posted by Hamlet, Thursday, 5 January 2006 8:12:19 AM
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Bronwyn, thanks for your reply

I agree with you, Islam in its extreme form is repressive for women. Not for all though, many practise a more moderate form of Islam and manage to blend it quite successfully with life in a secular or Western society.

Mostly can't agree with you here, everywhere I've lived, it's been the same. Ranging from mild to, by our standards to quite severe.

You may have read me wrongly, I'm no apologist for Islam/Islamic extremism.

They don't have to be extremists, just their daily behaviour is bad enough, welfare, Medicare/PBS, parking, fire bans. It seems that they believe that they're above our laws and we're some enormous udder from which to nourish themselves. Fundie Christians can be a worry but generally but I've never seen groups of Baptists behave the way they do and at least the women are allowed out on their own.

For me, the best society will always be a secular one.

Agreed!

If we work toward creating that sort of society, as we once did,

I think we do that, they can pretty much do what they want, they've done well for themselves and we've thrown a huge amount of resources at them, to what end?

They will gradually over time adopt our more moderate approach.

Perhaps, I've worked with the first generation children of many of our migrants, young mossie males have a lot of catching up to do. The rest enjoy what's on offer here and exploit in a positive and productive way and it shows.

Eventually they may become more moderate but how many generations will that take, at what cost and is it really worth the trouble? It's the same in European countries, resources are lavished on them and what happens?

Your anecdotes only further illustrate to me that most migrants who settle here do want to be part of the Australian way of life.

The mossie women I've talked to want out of their culture, the men largely want the best of both worlds, it suits them.
Posted by CARNIFEX, Thursday, 5 January 2006 8:25:39 AM
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By all means, people can hold any views or convictions that they wish, in our society, they can even talk privately about them under certain circumstances.

So Hamlet, if this is your true belief, why do you espouse your beliefs and convictions on this Forum?

But when people who hold those convictions try telling me, and others, that their beliefs are the only correct ones they place themselves in a position to be disagreed with and argued against, even condemned.

So Hamlet, if this is your true belief, why do you continue to publish on this forum your view that anyone that does not agree with you is wrong?

A person may hold deep sexual desires for his mother, sister or daughter. So long as he does nothing about those desires and keeps the discussion of them between himself and his therapist there is no problem.

Hamlet, I am in no way interested in your sexual preferences or how you handle your internal conflicts with your preferences or desires?

When he starts arguing publically, for his 'right' to have sexual relations with those people the society has an obligation to argue against those claims. If he takes it upon himself to ignore society's rules, mores and laws and acts upon those desires then he has to face the punishment that society imposes.

Hamlet , I will not stop you arguing for your right to have these incestuous or perverse relationships, but it is not society that imposes the punishment , for that is mob rule , it is the law that imposes the penalty.

so - if a person keeps his Fascist or racist views to himself or between him and his therapist - no problems.
Hamlet , I find it distressing that you would attempt to silence those who have a different view , but demand freedom of expression for yourself? “Is there a name for this behaviour?”
Posted by teamworktom, Thursday, 5 January 2006 9:07:00 AM
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Bwonwyn:

Not even in point form then?
Posted by Mr.P.Pig, Thursday, 5 January 2006 11:08:35 AM
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Teamworktom

I have never said that you, or any other person, don't have the right to express views, or to argue with me about mine. Can you please quote where I have said that you don't have this right?

I said that others have the right to argue against Fascist and Racist views, and to attempt to show the fault in those views.

On a personal level, I have the right to be intolerant of you and not to associate with you. Freedom of assoiation also means freedom of non-association.

What I have said is that society should not tolerate illegal actions carried out in furtherence of those views, that is, calls to violence and the like.

If you want to start a Fascist political party and run for a seat in parliament, then go ahead. But if you attempt to stage a Beer-Hall Putsch or a March on Canberra, or perhaps a burning of the Reichstag, (good typical Fascist acts all), expect to be met with a considerable amount of 'intolerance'. Any proposals for disposal of 'worthless eaters' will similarly result in interance of yourself and your views.
Posted by Hamlet, Thursday, 5 January 2006 11:17:56 AM
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Piggy

MULTICULTURALISM HAS GIVEN US

- a richer and broader culture
- a more diverse and interesting population mix
- innovative and different ideas
- access to new markets and sources of capital
- willing workers where needed
- an ability to share with and learn from others
- an international reputation for fairness and decency

and much more.

FOR ALTERNATIVES TO MULTICULTURALISM

It's over to you!

bRonwyn (RRRRRRR)
Posted by Bronwyn, Thursday, 5 January 2006 11:57:22 PM
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- a richer and broader culture

Incorporating cultures which may be great to look at and experience while travelling overseas but not so great to live next door to or have as a ghetto in the neighbouring suburb.

- a more diverse and interesting population mix

And tribal animosities.

- innovative and different ideas

Sharia, first cousin marriage, clannism

- access to new markets and sources of capital

Family connections back in the home country sure give great access to some quality drugs.

- willing workers where needed

True, then these workers bring over grandma with her need for a pension and medical care rapidly diminishing the benefits. Seen it many times.

- an ability to share with and learn from others

If it wasn't for MC I wouldn't have known just how backwards some cultures are. Also as a recent case shows involving a Congolese refugee, some are more than willing to share their deadly infections.

- an international reputation for fairness and decency

Which, upon the slightest friction between the 'racist' Anglos and the 'oppressed ethnic minority' gets completely trashed by by our own media whores.

To be fair Bronwyn it's given us something but is it worth the cost?

Alternatives? Just don't have it, multi-ethnic fine, but can MC.
Posted by CARNIFEX, Sunday, 8 January 2006 6:51:06 AM
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bRRRRRon.... yes. agreed.. all those things and we can have all that

As LONG as they are in a framework of:

1/ Dominant culture being Anglo/Brit

2/ Controlled numbers to avoid ghettos and any one minority becoming a threat.

3/ We remain in total control of our immigration and settlement policies.

and now..for my ULTIMATE PC SIN.... :)

4/ SELECTIVE immigration based on:

a) Social Cohesian
b) Cultural compatability
c) Political Stability
d) Our national interest.

And none of those 4 final criteria mean we have to miss out on all the yummy goodies you mentioned. It just DOES mean, that there will not be racial or cultural competitiveness which WOULD ultimately spill over into ..... CRONULLA and the such like. It means we will have a harmonious and vibrant society with a rich mix of people, but not to the point where any one group aside from the dominant can say "Ah.. look at us, now we are many, lets sack the city" as the Thai's did in Ankor Wat many moons ago, and as the Ivorian Migrants did when they realized they could put a candidate for president, and gain control of the diamonds...and as the WHITES did in New Zealand with the deceptive dual language treaty of Waitangi, need I go on ?
C'mon girl, join the 'real' world :)
Posted by BOAZ_David, Sunday, 8 January 2006 8:25:33 AM
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CARNIFEX

"If it wasn't for MC I wouldn't have known just how backwards some cultures are."

This is an arrogant and narrow-minded statement don't you think? In any case, many would argue that a culture that exploits and dominates its environment in a totally unsustainable manner, as ours does, is not particularly advanced. One day, Western societies will be forced to learn from some of those cultures you disparage as "backward". As the resources needed to maintain our extravagant lifestyle become increasingly depleted, we will have no choice but to learn from those who have managed to live in harmony with their surroundings for thousands of years. That's another debate of course, but it is strongly connected to this one.

"Alternatives? Just don't have it, multi-ethnic fine, but can MC."

Once again, an arrogant and as well a counter-productive view. Why should people have to forgo all of their cultural traditions? That is asking people to deny their history and all that makes them who they are. It is a sure recipe for social instability. In time, most migrants will gradually adopt the traditions of their new country and will become less reliant on the ways of their homelands.
Posted by Bronwyn, Sunday, 8 January 2006 3:00:03 PM
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Boaz_David

"1/ Dominant culture being Anglo/Brit"

We have that and always will.

"2/ Controlled numbers to avoid ghettos and any one minority becoming a threat."

Ghettos won't occur when migrants are welcomed and assisted to participate and integrate into Australian society. We need to do a lot more in this regard.

"3/ We remain in total control of our immigration and settlement policies."

Once again, we are and always have been.

"4/ SELECTIVE immigration"

Once again, this has always been the practice, though of course not to the extent that you would like. In reality, the policy you descibe would be little different to White Australia. This was a discriminatory and racist policy, and was eventually condemned as messy, unwieldy and counter-productive. Besides, who's to be the arbiter of the national interest? Many would argue that it is not at all in Australia's interests to turn our back on the world as you are suggesting. What an arrogant message to send to the world - you can only come in if you are just like us. That would really enhance our international reputation and bring stability to the region wouldn't it?

While disagreeing with the content of your post, I did appreciate its tone - until I was told to join the "real" world. I am in the real world, David, I just happen to view it from a different perspective to you, that's all. My view is no less valid than yours and no less real and if you want to debate me in future you'll just have to cut out the bullying because I won't respond.
Posted by Bronwyn, Sunday, 8 January 2006 3:23:42 PM
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BRonRyn:

Presumably you would want to define precisely what you mean by multiculturalism, the dictionary meaning versus the operational definition that has its adherents and detractors.

- a richer and broader culture
- a more diverse and interesting population mix

This is the same point split over two lines, trying to pad things like that is sneaky.

They are true by default and if you think it constitutes a benefit then you have to justify it. Diversity for its own sake is one thing, showing it to be beneficial is another. Introducing a pack of paedophiles into a kindergarten play group will make it more diverse.

- innovative and different ideas

Ideas do not require immigration to be passed on. We are taught to read for a reason, this is why academics publish instead of requiring a green card. Modern communications make this argument even less persuasive than it might once have been.

What percentage of ideas are worthy of changing the demographic makeup of a country for. And in terms of the perspective you choose to adopt in asserting this, how many Nobel laureates does it take to account for how many mediaeval peasants in the mix. What is the correct ratio to make for a net gain?

Any proof that innovation is a race based occurrence. And by that I mean you have to come up with something more substantial than one of those SBS moments, Morris dancers in traditional dress cavorting about a maypole. Specifics would be nice.

- access to new markets and sources of capital

I am not an economist. If you are then I am more than happy to defer to your better and more informed judgement. Otherwise, we could both agree not to talk about things we do not understand.

Perhaps you could elaborate with some specific real world examples.
Posted by Mr.P.Pig, Monday, 9 January 2006 1:45:28 AM
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- willing workers where needed

This is to fill skill shortages and not relevant to the current question. See the comments about Egyptian doctors in earlier posts.

- an ability to share with and learn from others

Padding things again, this was innovative and different ideas before.

Learning and sharing (or not) occurs between humans, from birth and as a consequence of being alive. Irrespective of race. To claim it as a pro for the immigration debate seems a bit opportunistic on your behalf.

Of course if there is something to be learned from other races, but not your own, then that would be an admission that there are substantive differences between the races. I am sure that this is not a claim you would feel comfortable defending.

- an international reputation for fairness and decency

This is very flimsy, like the noises they make in one of those corporate video puff pieces.

Apparently the Cronulla situation has caused inestimable damage to Australia's prestige (according to some) and this is directly related to multiculturalism. Personally I feel David Hicks did a lot of damage to our national reputation, but he was nothing if not willing to embrace different cultures. Remember it is real benefits that you are meant to be showing, not rhetoric.

- and much more

This is lucky because I am still waiting for something realistic to start with.

As to the question you asked me. I am not making the claim that there is an alternative to multiculturalism. It is a moot point, there is no choice. Then again I am not doggedly defending it, despite good evidence that there are serious flaws. This is a shame as it makes a fine platform from which to berate people for their lack of humanity and so on. But then that would be too easy.
Posted by Mr.P.Pig, Monday, 9 January 2006 1:47:11 AM
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Dear Bronwyn,
bullying involves exclamation marks, not smileys. I hope that somewhere in the recesses of this debate there is room for a humorous prod and poke. I welcome them. Sterility and hyper strictness remind me more of the 'fundamentalism' which you appear to dislike so much.

That aside, thanx for understanding my tone, which was meant to address the issue constructively.

SELECTIVE IMMIGRATION=WHITE AUSTRALIA POLICY ?
No.. not at all, but simply selective based on the criteria I outlined in the previous post. I would include those from Islamic traditions at the absolute bottom of the scale. (while agreeing totally there are many nice and wonderful muslims) I do so for very sound historical reasons. Given the theology of Islam, and the very observable fact that the larger the community, the greater the number of radicals (yes.. just at the extreme end) who are willing to murder in the name of Islam if you exercise your rights to produce a controversial movie, or pen a cartoon which may draw some humorous attention to the prophet of Islam.
I assure you, that if Sasha Cohen (Ali G) had given Islam the same treatement he did to Christianity and God in his blasphemous "Da Gospel according to Ali G" he would probably be dead now, or at least have people hunting him down.

You might respond with "But his sounds like collective punishment for the crimes of a few" well..no, its collective exclusion from the right to immigrate here. Thats not a punishment, its the withdrawal of a privilege by a soveriegn country. You might respond with reference to the UN conventions which we are signatories to, to which I reply, the sooner we either withdraw from them or add numerous 'exceptions' the better.

I am very much in favor of socially positive discrimination and reject totally the idea that 100% non discrimination is a social virtue. I think I have history on my side.

Another issue. Fundamentalism and Racism ? sorry. No connection.
Ring the KKK for that one. Could only ever be based on incorrect theology.
Posted by BOAZ_David, Monday, 9 January 2006 7:59:20 AM
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G'day Bronwyn, bit late, very busy

-This is an arrogant and narrow-minded statement don't you think?

No I didn't say that my culture was better than theirs. I stated a fact that you can learn what not to do from other cultures. For example the desert aborigines used to sub incise their penises, slash them from base to tip. Not a good idea. At school I was told endlessly that all cultures where equal, however through directly experiencing other cultures and talking to some of the women in those cultures I see otherwise.

-In any case, many would argue that a culture that exploits and dominates its environment in a totally unsustainable manner.

You may be interested to know that many of our immigrants come here to do just that.

-One day, Western societies will be forced to learn from some of those cultures you disparage as "backward".

Western societies already have learnt much from the backward ones.

-we will have no choice but to learn from those who have managed to live in harmony with their surroundings for thousands of years.

I would love to live in peace and harmony with the world, the Moriori of the Chatham Islands did just that, then in 1835 the Maori arrived.

I knew the noble savage argument would come into this somewhere along the line.

Did you take Gender Studies at uni?

-Why should people have to forgo all of their cultural traditions?

They don't, I just don't want to subsidise or make special allowances for them. It's racist to do so and infantilises them.

-It is a sure recipe for social instability.

And the current ingredients Bronwyn? Look around you, you often complain about how more has to be done to help them assimilate. Do you realise how much effort goes into keeping this whole machine cranking over? Effort that could go into ventures truly worthwhile. I don't think you do.
Posted by CARNIFEX, Wednesday, 11 January 2006 3:11:23 PM
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