Alan wrote “even though, as even your encyclopedia mentions, the end date of the dark ages has been pushed back from around 1500 to 1000..blah blah”

Err actually no the World Book Encyc. Talks of the Middle Ages with a early part which I have mentioned and referred to as, the “Early Middle Ages”, as being the time of the Dark Ages which it is commonly and historically know as. To push the time for the Dark Ages outside CE1000 or at most mid to late 11th century is wrong as Stark does by saying it finished in the 15th Century. The best initial argument against Stark, that you pointed out and many other references agree, that the period was a judgment of contemporary scholars on a previous time period. So if we take into account the historical timing regarding who first used the Dark Ages terminology.” It is generally accepted that the term was invented by Petrarch in the 1330s.” then it obviously can’t describe a period after 1330AD can it? So Stark is wrong! Refer to links below re: Petrarch.
http://www.themiddleages.net/people/petrarch.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_ages

But I will return to this argument in a moment some other house cleaning. Firstly your comment regarding eyeglasses, ok I shall return the goal posts as you are correct because I’ve tried to form a balanced logical argument based on referenced articles under a well defined set of terms.
So, Eyeglasses are to Reading Stones are to Burning Glass from between 100BC & 100AD and before the Dark Ages. Refer following links-
http://www.microscopeworld.com/misc/history-of-the-microscope.htm
http://www.microscope-microscope.org/basic/microscope-history.htm

YngNLuvnit wrote ” Serg, Question; So Galileo, Kepler & Newton were all atheists not young-Earth Creationists?”

Yes they were creationists as far as I know, but young or old earth I don’t know.

David wrote” Serg... I think its a waste of time to try to show either for or against a religious tradition by counting the ‘score’ of various cultural contributions.” When or whether the Dark Ages occurred or at what time invention developed has nothing to do with “religious tradition” that’s pathetic. And what score is being kept?

Where Was I? Yes what point are you making by quoting another article by Stark that shows the same time period? He’s still wrong, consistent though! With your three references I’ll get to the first one last. The other two links are transposing the whole period of the middle ages (early & late) to the Dark Ages which is incorrect.*

Now that first link, “Stormfront” I don’t know what you are trying to say about that. “Talk about a hostile witness” what do you mean by that? These guys are white pride, white supremacists and racists (but not neo-Nazis lets not get over board). If you are using them as a history reference you must be joking? Talk about a group distorting history for their own reasoning. Oh wait, no, I think you cracked it. That’s where Stark is getting his references from, yeah, it all makes sense now. Lets try another white pride group?
http://www.white-history.com/
Dark Ages article-
http://www.white-history.com/hwr41.htm

The same thing as well, like Stark these guys too are consistent.

*Let’s try some people with less of a drum to beat, and see when they consider the Dark Ages.
How about the Encyclopaedia Britannica?
http://www.britannica.com/eb/article-9028782?query=dark%20ages&ct=
Time for Dark Ages-“to the period between about 500 and 1000 (AD)”

Or other Encyclopaedia-
http://www.bartleby.com/65/mi/MiddleAg.html
http://www.encyclopedia.com/html/section/MiddleAg_BeginningsandCulturalDevelopments.asp
This quote- “The Dark Ages, formerly a designation for the entire period of the Middle Ages, now refers usually to the period c.450-750, also known as the Early Middle Ages.”
http://www.reference.com/browse/wiki/Middle_Ages
Notes that the high middle ages starts at 1000AD with the Dark Ages prior to that.

How about Dictionaries (Most no more that CE1000)?-
http://encarta.msn.com/encnet/features/dictionary/DictionaryResults.aspx?refid=1861602608
http://www.askoxford.com/concise_oed/darkages?view=uk
http://www.wordsmyth.net/live/home.php?script=search&matchent=Dark+Ages&matchtype=exact
http://www.acs.ucalgary.ca/~nurelweb/books/concise/WORDS-D.html
http://www.bartleby.com/59/9/darkages.html
http://www.factmonster.com/ipd/A0398993.html
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/dark%20age
http://www.infoplease.com/dictionary/Dark+Ages

The BBC?-
http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/society_culture/architecture/architecture_01.shtml

Here’s a nice one-
http://www.roma.unisa.edu.au/07305/medmm.htm

But this is getting boring let’s try a drum beater- The Vatican?-
http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/homilies/1982/documents/hf_jp-ii_hom_19820601_glasgow_en.html

Containing the quote- “After the Dark Ages had passed, during which the Viking invasions failed to quench the light of the Faith, the coming of Queen Margaret inaugurated a new chapter in the history of the Church in Scotland,” QM was born in CE 1046 so therefore DA was before that.

Next?

Alchemist,
Quote-Jeshua, morality is a religious cultural, illusional concept, designed to control its followers. Ethics, are displayed by all living beings, keeping order in the natural world. The religious lack ethical understanding and application, if they did, they would approach life in a vastly different way. Then those that don't believe would have more respect for the religious. True freedom is when you have nothing holding you in check, not something forcing you into narrow fearful repetitive dogma.

You are bound by the law and therefore you see religous as fearful and bound. This is exactly what Jesus came to do and that is deliver us from the law of sin and redeem us through the law of love. I agree that religion can be a blind following and repetition of dogmas and rituals. However within this there is a moral code that provides a standard for good living. The Bible can be seen as a rule book or a book that gives life to those who find it. Those who find it know the truth and live. Others use it as a book of rules and are bound by it. Jesus referred to it but He brought life by fulfilling the written word.
I disagree that true freedom is nothing holding you in check. True freedom is being able to be and accountable. This is freedom with responsibility. The other is freedom without responsibility. This is the freedom that breeds chaos as everyone feels free to do what they think is best and mostly it just breeds selfishness.

Sergei,
So I claim that the idea of the dark ages being the entire middle ages up to the renaissance was commonly put foward in texts up until a few decades ago when more discoveries showed how wrong it was. And so you respond by showing how texts are no longer claiming the entire period?? How does that address what I have been saying? I even provided links and references of people and organisations that still claim it is the entire period.

Truly the mind boggles.

On eyeglasses. It is interesting that the earlier links you quoted said that the reading stone was the first visual aid, and yet know you are claiming these links aren't accurate by saying that romans first used glass as a visual aid. Which is it sergei? Should I trust the links you put foward only to later realise that you think they are innaccurate?

Sorry meant 2 put this up ages ago...

http://standstoreason.livejournal.com/

(There's newer stuff on there than last time you clicked).