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The Forum > Article Comments > RU486: Don’t go there > Comments

RU486: Don’t go there : Comments

By Donna Harrison, published 1/12/2005

Donna Harrison argues complications associated with the use of RU486 have put it under the spotlight in the US.

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I would be interested to know the number of people who have actually taken the pill. Without that data, the number of reported deaths is meaningless.
Posted by Alex, Thursday, 1 December 2005 11:05:42 AM
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[[This debate is beginning to fracture - see earlier and later posts]]

MP links Nguyen, RU486 debate

December 01, 2005
A LIBERAL MP has tried to link tomorrow's execution in Singapore of Australian Van Tuong Nguyen to the debate over the abortion pill RU486.

Pro-life Tasmanian Michael Ferguson has accused fellow MPs of double standards on the two issues.

"It's breathtaking hypocrisy for some people in the Australian parliament to be fighting to save one young man's life, while at the same time fighting for a drug which will allow the death penalty to be imposed on unborn babies," he said.

"Certainly in the new year when the abortion debate begins anew, I think that we ought again to be reminded of this week in Australian parliament, of this week in international relations, when people were fighting for the sanctity of life."

...................o0o...........................

Opposition women's affairs spokeswoman Tanya Plibersek said it is disgusting for Mr Ferguson to link a tragedy like Nguyen's execution to a debate over the availability of a drug.

"For anyone to try and profit from what's happening tomorrow for a short-term point score like that, I think is just tasteless in the extreme," she said.

...................o0o...........................

Hmmm... perhaps Tanya to denigrate Ferguson rather than sticking to the debate is 'tasteless and disgusting'; you'd think¿

So- given that one guilty dealer/mule/smuggler and thousands of innocent children are both to sentenced to death and executed => accepted facts for Australia December 2005

A rather clear and simple question; how do you - Tanya - resolve the extreme 'sanctity of life' contradiction¿

{Note:-
1. No points will be given for 'those whom you think disgusting'.

2. Take as given - carrying drugs is 'tasteless in the extreme' & killing innocent children defies moral and ethical cognition.

3. In your own wêds pliza..
Posted by denk, Thursday, 1 December 2005 11:16:06 AM
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I agree with the first poster -- and you also need to supply comparitive figures for death/infection etc. rates for surgical abortions, the results of which show that RU486 is at least as safe as surgical abortion. In addition, having an abortion is also very much safer than having childbirth. Thus, if you don't want a child, then not having it via an abortion of any kind is safer than having it.

These figures should be easy to obtain, since France, for instance, has an excellent health care system (better than Australia), and has allowed the use of RU486 since 1988 (and that is also true of many other European countries where you don't have strong right-to-life groups trying to enforce their opinion on others via authoritarian measures). Presumably, if the results were worse than surgical abortion, then they would have retracted its use.
Posted by rc, Thursday, 1 December 2005 11:50:17 AM
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The RU 486 availability in Australia for womens choice is the issue.

Lifting of the present ban is a matter of weighing ALL the statistical evidence, not the selective data offered by Donna Harrison who must assume that Australians havent been following the debate in America where the pro life lobby receives Presidential blessings and where appointments to the Supreme Court by George W. Bush are being closely scrutinised by the Senate for their likely bias to overturn the Roe Vs Wade precedent.

Australian Gynaecologists and Obstetricians are overwhelmingly in favour of overturning the ban which was imposed due to a political deal by the Howard Government with Independent Brian Harradine to secure his vote for the sale of Telstra.

Australian Women who want to have terminations of pregnancies must have the choice of Surgical or Chemical abortion and not have supply witheld because of politics and the Health Minister's moral objections.
Posted by maracas, Thursday, 1 December 2005 12:44:36 PM
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It's all a beat up that's why they won't give the figures the drug is considered safe by the standards we set for any drugs( hell peanut paste can kill some people). The facts are that this drug is a viable alternative to surgical abortion. The only people who have concerns are those who wish to take us back to the day's of back alley abortions.

As for the comment about linking the death penalty to abortions for an answer to that one try talking to your anti-choice friends in the US were most of them support the death penalty. trying to save zgotes and wanting to kill adults yea nice one.
.
Posted by Kenny, Thursday, 1 December 2005 1:05:18 PM
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Donna Harrison, I suspect, argues more from an anti-choice ideological position than from an objective medical one. If our College of Obstretrics and Gynaecology are in favour of lifting the ban on RU486 and the AMA is, then surely that is enough. Some like Harrison, appear to be wanting to reopen the whole debate on abortion yet it has been legal in Australia for a number of years now. RU486 simply is another alternative that has been tried and found effective in numerous other countries. It is unfortunate that 4 or 5 women in California died of septic infection after taking the drug but perhaps that can be compared with the half million women who die every year in childbirth or other pregnancy-related conditions. I can probably count four or five women or girls I knew of when I was growing up who died from unsafe abortions when abortion was illegal. Get this matter out of the hands of politicians and with the Therapeutic Goods Administration where it belongs!
Posted by popandperish, Thursday, 1 December 2005 2:08:57 PM
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Perhaps Donna Harrison can tell us if she is a Catholic, or part of the US fundamentalist movement.
Posted by Yabby, Thursday, 1 December 2005 2:38:03 PM
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Kenny

Thats Zygotes ... no¿ {{Megottes!! - shudder}}

Not hapless haploids, either - but human life.

The real thing.

When you have earned or acquired the right to kill that human life; may be deminished by whatever ethic you subscribe to - and a deminishing ethic is what you do seem to aspire to.

(Okay its the acorn oak tree debate ... go figure. But killing is the correct verb by whatever perspective !

Dunno. Of course...
Posted by denk, Thursday, 1 December 2005 3:03:24 PM
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Good point, Denk.

That's about the best you'll get out of Tanya Plibersek. She's such a lightweight, the only place she feels safe is on the pro-choice bandwagon.
Posted by RobP, Thursday, 1 December 2005 3:05:49 PM
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The arguments for and against any pharmaceutical are well worth balancing for a reasoned response, but what should be remembered here is that is not happening while a minister is responsible for making the decision.

Banning or allowing a drug such as RU486 should left in the hands of an independant body, all the discussions can be held openly with no-one having to wonder how the decision was made.
Posted by alianz, Thursday, 1 December 2005 3:25:46 PM
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Ok I checked, some of the Catholic websites say that she is part of the pro life movement. That explains alot.

But its not really a problem to destroy Donna's arguments on medical terms, for she has missed a critical point. For RU 486 to work effectively, its best if patients are under supervision of a doctor.
Donna mentions problems in the US. Sure there will be. Roughly 40-50 million Americans don't have health insurance. They only go to a doctor if they feel they have to, or they land up with a huge bill,
American doctors don't work cheap most of the time.

So imagine if somebody in the US, without health insurance, eventually goes to a doctor to get a script. The doctor says to come back if there is a problem. In Australia, that patient can go back to a doctor, if they believe that there is a problem. In America they can go back, only if they pay an arm and a leg. So people are more likely not to go, unless they are convinced that there is a problem. Hence more deaths in America then in say Europe. All very
logical...

Some people on here confuse human life with human persons, big difference. They need to read up on basic evolution theory to understand natures laws. Darwin was right after all... In any species, there will be far more potential persons/animals, then can ever survive. Every night, billions of eggs and sperms are flushed down the worlds toilets. Women shed around 400 eggs in their lives.
Sadly not all can survive, yet all could be cute babies.
A person has a functioning brain. What would you do if a sperm met
an ova down in a sewer? Panic that human life is being lost?
Posted by Yabby, Thursday, 1 December 2005 10:36:44 PM
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Just another cynical attempt by a committed pro-life person to try and influence Australians by selectively using statistics. If Donna Harrison feels that she has sound medical reasons to support her views, then let her present her case to the appropriate Australian medical bodies and see how far that gets her.
Posted by Rex, Thursday, 1 December 2005 11:49:16 PM
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This fight was fought in the early 70's we shouldn't have to refight it every generation. Abortions are legal in Australia and women are entitled to the safest medical procedures available. RU486 has been used in France for 20 years. It is considered very safe. The complication rate for RU486 is 0.008% - from statistics accessed in September.

This arguement reminds me of conditions in Japan. In Japan the contraceptive pill is considered unsafe. The average Japanese woman has about 5 abortions. Why? The Japanese surgeons are a very powerful lobby group concerned about loss of income.

I am annoyed at the forum managers for putting up a Catholic pro-life essay wthout an opposing essay for balance
Posted by billie, Friday, 2 December 2005 8:09:16 AM
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Yabby ....¿¿

Quote Yabby, "What would you do if a sperm met an ova down in a sewer?" Unquote. Oh yeah¿ Are you sure¿ Are you even serious ...

Isn't that where --> yabbies <-- come from¿

...................................o0o..............................

roflmao

To quote Cleese ...

--> "SHUT YOUR FESTERING GOB YOU VACUOUS STUFFY-NOSED MALODOROUS PERVERT!"

--> "Excuse me, I want an argument¿"

--> "Oops, sorry mate! This is abuse..."

(Okay - sorry Yabby I know this qualifies as Pythonesque abuse, brêkkin serious online forum decorum, but with your nickname you've unfortunately strolled into Room 12: ... Pliza forgive me!)

--> "You want room 12A, next door ..."
Posted by denk, Friday, 2 December 2005 11:49:52 AM
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Thank you Dr Harrison for this article, and for taking an interest in what is happening here in Australia. As far as I know, there are less deaths from surgical abortion. If anyone has hard data to debate that, please provide it.
Posted by Sherrin Ward, Friday, 2 December 2005 4:01:28 PM
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Sherrin Ward
I dont know where you got that information as there are no statistics in Australia. RU 486 is banned because of political intervention solely on so called moral grounds.
However, if you seek information I suggest you go to the Australian Parliamentary Library, Research note No.19 2005 06 by Luke Buckmaster, Social Policy Section dated 29th November 2005 .
He refers to experience overseas where RU 486 has been widely used .
There is no suggestion that "there are more deaths than surgical abortion' as you believe.
Fortunately commonsense will hopefully prevail and the use of RU 486 will be the subject of a conscience vote and the matter will be placed in the hands of the Therapeutic Goods Administration as an earlier post commented. After all, abortion in this country is legal,and the use of medical abortion will give women a choice.
Posted by maracas, Saturday, 3 December 2005 12:18:53 AM
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Politics has no place in medicine.

Personal religious beliefs have no place in politics.

Politics are for all Australians not just the far right religious fundies.

To register your protest against Abbott's personal agenda please access the following website:

http://www.getup.org.au/index.asp

Let the medical experts decide on RU486.

Cheers
Posted by Scout, Saturday, 3 December 2005 8:00:51 AM
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