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The Forum > Article Comments > Gospel entrepreneurs: Jesus is good for business > Comments

Gospel entrepreneurs: Jesus is good for business : Comments

By Alan Matheson, published 30/11/2005

Alan Matheson discusses the new gospel entrepreneurs and their financial interests

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healthy scepticism; it will be rewarded by some unseemly attacks to follow.

I think the Bush/Howard link is not as relevant as it might first appear. Howad is too worried about appearing overly gushing when it comes to anything like organised religion - he will milk the link but in a more covert fashion than Bush tends to do.

And while the televangelist types are under scrutiny it would be a mistake not to take a close look at the more mainstream churches most of which are doing very nicely for themselves.

There are also some disturbing reports about some churches and the way they operate in the South Pacific, exacting unreasonable tithes from village people and in at least one instance in Fiji - running the village and insisting villagers pay rent to use a tractor they own - they probably see it as teaching the poor natives the value of money or have some other equally patronising rationalisation.

Yep; watch the hot gospelers by all mean but don't forget the rest.
Posted by sneekeepete, Wednesday, 30 November 2005 10:00:04 AM
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Christian churches have always been a mixture of "weeds and wheat".

1. Wheat: Most Christians are genuine participants, within the human race, testifying to the life of grace, and making a valuable contribution to society .

2. Weeds: Always, some have loved their money, and power, and guilt more than true freedom. Judas - Jesus very own treasurer - is a classic example.

The New Testament is full of corrective writing, telling the church to get their act together.
Thanks for reminding us that there are crooks and politicians among the churches.
That will not invalidate the heart of message: Christ Jesus is Lord of the Nations.

And it looks like sneekeepete is going to be the bishop - overseeing the rest of the churches - so all should be well, in that regard.
Posted by tennyson's_1_far-off_divine_event, Wednesday, 30 November 2005 10:54:38 AM
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All religions are money making enterprises. Always have been, always will be.

Dont be cluoded by your faith as to what you are giving for, and what you are giving to.

Give your time, money, whatever, expect not to recieve anything in return but your inner knowing.

People will get very rich off poor honest folks, and religion is a easy string to pull as it taps into a persons belief system. A great business model with loyal, willing subscribers.

DVDS, CDs, giving money, spending your time....if you need that support network great, but dont be under an illusion, they are just another motivator. Tony Robbins would far you better, and at least you wont go to hell for worshipping false idols, and you will get motivated to change your NLP at least.
Posted by Realist, Wednesday, 30 November 2005 11:23:17 AM
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Nothing to see here, move along.

Religions have been extracting money from the faithful since time immemorial, as has any organization or class of folk that preys upon the gullibility and emotions of people less savvy or self-confident than themselves.

Witchdoctors fit the bill, as do those Catholic entrepreneurs who sold indulgences across Europe in the fifteenth century. All we are seeing is today's equivalent. A thousand years hence, they will still exist.

The current crop is no different from their predecessors; some are sincere and rich, some are insincere and rich. By and large, their adherents are much less rich. Just normal commerce really, and I don't see that there is much to get upset about.
Posted by Pericles, Wednesday, 30 November 2005 12:10:33 PM
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Just a known reality of religion. But it is good to see a christian speak about it, until you see their own hidden agenda. Wonder what that may be, money his church should be getting, or a genuine concern for unethical religious practise. Me thinks he may be lost on that one.
Posted by The alchemist, Wednesday, 30 November 2005 12:29:03 PM
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ASSEMBLIES OF GOD AND THE FAMILY FIRST PARTY

While the message of organised religion is usually benign its growing alliance with professional politicians is the kind of thing that can distort secular democracy.

In the 1950s and 60s the efforts of Catholic Archbishop Mannix, right wing Catholic “groupers” and the DLP, kept the Liberals in power past their use by date.

Its pretty clear that Family First is closely related to the Assembly of God. http://www.abc.net.au/lateline/content/2004/s1217824.htm

This article in the Age http://www.theage.com.au/news/National/PM-gives-Family-First-preference/2005/03/03/1109700607983.html pretty well explains Howard’s love of Family First and consequently his special attention to powerful churches. Hence "conscience vote" issues like abortion and birth control are increasingly under pressure from rightwing churchgoers (princibly Abbott).

Family First preferences have given Howard more power, through the Coalition majority in the Senate, than he ever expected.

Howard’s courting church votes can come unstuck though – when his appointment of an Anglican Archbishop as Governor General exposed the seamier side of organised religion.

I think the message of Christianity is largely a good one. But the organisational objectives of Christianity’s self appointed representatives, be they high church or rapidly expanding charismatic churches, often frustrate the goodness.
Posted by plantagenet, Wednesday, 30 November 2005 1:04:33 PM
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GOSPEL ENTREPRENEURS; JESUS IS GOOD FOR BUSINESS

Absolutely ! It is in the interests of ‘Business’ or Executive Power that they operate with their own Witch Doctors.
It is no accident that Bush and Howard embrace religious piety and support religious organisation; they seek to appeal to the naivete of their constituents in that they would not countenance evil acts.
They don’t suggest the poor and needy ‘eat cake’, they offer them ‘pie-in-the-sky’. The lessons from their Bibles are subject to selective interpretation as spouted by the stage strutting evangelists.

I do not suggest there are not genuine devout believers out there who quietly go about practicing their faith…Unfortunately they are disunited and divided by their own sectarianism.

The ultimate irony is the preamble to Parliamentary deliberations begins with a prayer, then turns into a circus. Obviously, Jesus is good for business.
Posted by maracas, Wednesday, 30 November 2005 1:05:13 PM
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I cant help think that poeple who worry about the "success" of the large evangelical churches or ministries either suffer from the so called "tall poppy syndrome" or are already eager to find fault because the type of ministry presented may not fit in with what they think church should be? These evangelical groups are the only churches that are experiencing significant growth in this otherwise secular world. It is certainly not in their interest to defraud anyone but to only be a positive influence on people and the community. If the media truly wanted to find out and then be prepared to give an honest and unbiased report into their findings I am sure they would be more successful in separating fact from falsehood. I understand this would take quite a cultural shift within the media today but it certainly would go a long way if the goal is finding and presenting the truth through balanced reporting.
Posted by Billyboy, Wednesday, 30 November 2005 6:18:25 PM
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"All religions are money making enterprises. Always have been, always will be."
LoL...That's as ridiculous generalisation as saying all muslims are suicide bombers. I'd ask you just as an introduction to demonstrate how all Buddhist groups are in it for the money. By the way, please don't respond with some ridiculous fringe-cult which also believe in sacrificing babies to Satan. I'm talking about mainstream denominations, the majority.

I'd like to remind everyone that we are talking about extreme cases here. But yes, this whole prosperity doctrine has got totally out of hand. We totally need to make sure that these religious leaders are made accountable in and outside religious circles.

However I was happy when I heard about the ECFA. I have always argued that religous organisations should be completely transparent about funds. It achieves many outcomes; namely it empowers the members of the religion with a sense of purpose, because they know where their funds are going. Using a charity organisation as an analogy; World Vision wouldn't ask people to give money, and then tells its members "Oh but we can't tell you where it is going". They are (fairly) transparent, and hence people are happy to part with their money for what they view as a good cause.

It also prevents the all-too-common political technique of 'mud throwing'. What I mean is anyone who has some problem with a religious group can just make a random statement such as "Oh hes (e.g. Billy Graham) is just making millions and exploiting the members for financial reward". Whereas in a transparent organisation, the religious group can offer a clear defence to these baseless allegations and move on.
Posted by justin86, Wednesday, 30 November 2005 6:58:07 PM
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Oh whoa is the cause of us unbelievers!

Its a bit frustrating for moi, who is critical of organised religion, that the financial integrity of major religious denominations in Australia can be so easily and successfully defended. Because they DO have sincerity AND integrity (dammit)!

Alan's issue is basically "dead on arrival" because its all about fringe American churches and sundry obvious crooks.

A hotter issue is the influence of the (Pentacostal) Assembly of God on Family First and also the influence of the hardline Catholic Church elements on our Health Minister and future Prime Minister Abbott. With the potential for imposed morality (via laws) on we unbelievers.

If these issues are not explored by Alan or some other worthy soul I fear a major journalistic extravaganza (equaling the birth of Mary's/Bec's new babies or the exposure of the delectable (CIA spook) Valerie Plame) will be left to pass unglamourised and unexploited.

And incidently, Australian society will be the worse for it.

Yours lamentating severely

Plantagenet
Posted by plantagenet, Wednesday, 30 November 2005 9:55:10 PM
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I note with some interest that while this article presents lots of interesting information, there is actually not a single piece of evidence to suggest any wrongdoing by any of the entities included.

Being under investigation by the IRS (Benny Hinn), or APRA (Hillsong) does not constitute wrongdoing.

The link between Bush and Howard is also rather weak. I mean come on - "Getting ready for an election, Howard launches his campaigns in the heart of the Pentecostal movement and the gospel entrepreneurs." - that's a bit rich - we all know Hillsong happened to offer the option, and Howard took it. Hillsong offers an option every year at its annual Hillsong conference anyway.

Even Ministry Watch's comments about TD Jakes' ministry are just opinion only. There is no evidence.

Having said that, I do agree with the overall thrust of the article, which says that there is a greater need for accountability amongst churches, and I do welcome the government investigating possible tax fraud. As one of the other posters said, there are some wolves amongst the sheep (there always are) and there's nothing wrong with weeding them out.

But please don't pull together a collection of assorted unsupported 'facts' and use that to imply that the work of these people is purely for financial gains.
Posted by anachronox99, Thursday, 1 December 2005 6:01:28 AM
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Since when did making money acquire a religious dimension? "It is easier for a rich man to pass through the eye of a needle" etc.

The marriage of faith and wealth can only suit the self-righteous, the underlying principle being if you're poor you somehow deserve it.
Posted by bennie, Thursday, 1 December 2005 12:57:41 PM
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Didn't you know JC drives a merc.

Why be surprised that those selling lies are liars.

Hey DB wouldn't be sneeking on under a different name would he?
Posted by Kenny, Thursday, 1 December 2005 1:12:11 PM
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Before anyone points out the obvious error here's the real quote...

"Verily, I say unto you, that a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven. . . . It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God."

Would a gospel enterpreneur tell you "Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal...For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also." ?

or even,

"No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon. (Matt. 6:24)

The bible's full of this stuff.

"Take heed, and beware of covetousness: for a man's life consisteth not in the abundance of the things which he possesseth. (Luke 12:15)

Gospel entrepreneurs are merely shysters borrowing legitimacy from the church. "Donate today and your generosity will be rewarded ten-fold" is how the money gets generated. The beauty of it is, a fool and his money may be easily parted but his faith remains stronger than ever.
Posted by bennie, Thursday, 1 December 2005 3:53:00 PM
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you sound like a sunday school renegade, benny.
you know the verses, and have become cynical.

but then, ... what about justification by grace alone, through faith?
and not by having money, or having none?

...that's a good one to read up on!

but then I overlooked the one about casting pearls before swine...
Posted by tennyson's_1_far-off_divine_event, Thursday, 1 December 2005 4:04:45 PM
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Well well well,

It was just written in the bible (as interpreted by me) that the masses should be poor rather than wealthy, that followers should not be encouraged to be wealthy.

Cant you all see,?

When this was written it was definately intended as a means to keep the ruling class ruling, and stop the followers aspirations for wealth on a moral level, as it was dangerous in those days for the ruling class if the masses want a share of wealth, in those days conflict was one of the few ways to acquire it.

Did god say this, or did someone 'human' make it up?

I beliieve in creation, but dont believe what was written by another man, his opinions are his own and in a different time.

It is funny how those blinded by belief pull parts out of the bible and Kuran etc and take some literally, ignore some, etc etc. It is false or it is truth, there cant be a middle.

The daggers will come out now, but wanting to make a better life for your family is not a sin. The sin is not making a better life for your family.
Posted by Realist, Friday, 2 December 2005 10:27:57 AM
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The most interesting posts on this thread have been from the resident christians on this forum. It amazes me at their in depth explanations for the number of preachers and religious groups that constantly fleece their congregations for their own greed. Yet those same congregations still flock to them in droves. I wonder how they explain that enslaved sheep attitude.

But then it is almost impossible for the deluded to see reality, so they flock to these despots with their wallets wide open, saying save me, how much will it cost. They should be made to give a money back guarantee or face charges of fraud, as we unbelievers would be if we asked people for money to support an illusional cure for your mind and body, that never come true.

The sadness of the one who was just hanged by a religious country this morning, who was baptised into the Christian church recently, certainly got all the help god gives it followers. I wonder if what it cost him was worth the effort of baptism. Why haven't hillsong, or its equivalent in other states put up their money to help. The silence from the evangelistic rich churches has been deafening, just like their posts here.
Posted by The alchemist, Friday, 2 December 2005 11:27:03 AM
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Realist
"It was just written in the bible (as interpreted by me) that the masses should be poor rather than wealthy, that followers should not be encouraged to be wealthy."

I completely disagree with your interpretation. In fact, what Alan Matheson was discussing is a wave of thinking going around christian circles called 'prosperity doctrine' which says:
- God blesses those who he loves
- Therefore, if your a christian, you should have more money than everyone else

Now to me that is completely and utterly ridiculous as well. But I'm just outlining it to demonstrate the two extremes that people can go to when they are reading and attempting to understand what is being said.

To me, the bible has never said to stay poor. What all those verses are trying to convey is that having lots of money is okay, as long as your priorities are right. The Bible heavily emphasises the importance of relationships and spirituality in our lives. If you fully read the verse quoted:

"Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal...For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also."

It says to lay up treasures that don't decay over time. In other words, its trying to explain to the reader how money in the scheme of things isn't as important as we think it is. Worry more about the relationships you build with your family, friends, God etc. Because these are the things that lead on into eternity (if you believe in eternity).

I think everyone would agree with those teachings to some extent. In Australia we have always believed strongly in mateship and our families, and I think thats why there has been such an uproar about these new Industrial Relational Laws.

It is really important to have a balanced reading of the chapters surrounded a verse, otherwise it is possible to peddle any sort of ideology. We must also understand that certain passages balance each other out.
Posted by justin86, Friday, 2 December 2005 11:32:58 AM
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Sorry but you have not shown me anything that backs your statement up.

Where did the bible say wealth was good? show me?

Where did it say regarding money, everything you showed me just then was negating wealth, forget the christians have more money crap.

I know what it says and i can see your interpretation, but just like nostradamous the vague nature ensures you can take what you like out of it. if you believe, you want to interprete it according to your belief.

If it is so full of conflictions, balancing everything out, cannot this be proof that many men wrote it, and god was perhaps not coming through, rather individual attitudes?

If you need this as a means to give your life rules and beliefs that are not your own, i hope it does its job. But if you are a free thinker, non brainwashed and have your own thoughts and feelings i dont understand why you subscribe to a set of beliefs.

In life, things are changing. look at politics, its is becoming less party orientated, people now work often of sets of principles individual to them rather than blindly following all party policies. Christianity will be the same for those free thinkers of the future.
Posted by Realist, Friday, 2 December 2005 11:54:08 AM
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Sunday school renegade, Tennyson? You bet. That's where I learned the streets of heaven are literally paved with gold. The tasteless logic behind gospel entrepreneurialism has been around for a long time.

Make your money, treat your family to a better life but don't lose sight of the main game. Those who catch the bug are a bit like long-lost friends who turn up our of the blue, promise to change your life, then try to flog you Amway.

Biblical references to avarice are a dime a dozen and make perfect sense whether you're religious or not. I haven't memorised them but have found it's easier to toss them like hand-grenades at those who maintain money and religion are easy bedfellows. I'm curious to hear what our resident preacher has to say on this. David?

But I'm even more curious as to what Tennyson's far-off divine event will be.
Posted by bennie, Friday, 2 December 2005 1:09:23 PM
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The poet, Alfred Tennyson, was person who lived in genuine hope.
He understood and lived within the mystery of creation.
And he wrote a 36 stanza poem called 'In Memoriam' to unfold his rich insights:
These are the last 4 stanza's (you can google the others):

....

Of those that, eye to eye, shall look
On knowledge; under whose command
Is Earth and Earth’s, and in their hand
Is Nature like an open book;

No longer half-akin to brute,
For all we thought and loved and did,
And hoped, and suffer’d, is but seed
Of what in them is flower and fruit;

Whereof the man, that with me trod
This planet, was a noble type
Appearing ere the times were ripe,
That friend of mine who lives in God,

That God, which ever lives and loves,
One God, one law, one element,
And one far-off divine event,
To which the whole creation moves.

cheers!
Posted by tennyson's_1_far-off_divine_event, Friday, 2 December 2005 3:43:36 PM
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how bout Joe Hill: 'the preacher and the slave" 1911. in the context of the churches in america taking the employers side in the general strikes of 1910-11.

Long-haired preachers come out every night,
Try to tell you what's wrong and what's right;
But when asked how 'bout something to eat
They will answer with voices so sweet:

You will eat, bye and bye,
In that glorious land above the sky;
Work and pray, live on hay,
You'll get pie in the sky when you die.

The starvation army they play,
They sing and they clap and they pray
'Till they get all your coin on the drum
Then they'll tell you when you're on the bum:
Holy Rollers and jumpers come out,
They holler, they jump and they shout.
Give your money to Jesus they say,
He will cure all diseases today.
If you fight hard for children and wife --
Try to get something good in this life --
You're a sinner and bad man, they tell,
When you die you will sure go to hell.

Workingmen of all countries, unite,
Side by side we for freedom will fight;
When the world and its wealth we have gained
To the grafters we'll sing this refrain:

You will eat, bye and bye,
When you've learned how to cook and to fry.
Chop some wood, 'twill do you good,
And you'll eat in the sweet bye and bye.
Posted by its not easy being, Friday, 2 December 2005 5:16:30 PM
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Brilliant.

I gotta read more poetry.
Posted by bennie, Friday, 2 December 2005 6:26:24 PM
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There go the pearls, trampled underfoot, yet again.
You can't say we weren't warned.

Must get those swine to the butcher, for yes... we can still eat them in Oz... ham sandwiches. Or bacon pie, in the sky, bye and bye!
Posted by tennyson's_1_far-off_divine_event, Friday, 2 December 2005 11:44:56 PM
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Turning the argument on it's head, I think there is a good case for regarding the unbridled love of money as being an ancient religion in it's own right.

Looking back down the corridor of time, it's easy to see how primitive love of money has thrust other religions aside right up to the present moment.

With that in mind, the entepreneurial preachers might be regarded as super-realists.

They are merely attempting to join the mother-ship.

Hallelujiah....I'm comin' Lord....!
Posted by Chris Shaw, Carisbrook 3464, Saturday, 3 December 2005 12:35:15 AM
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Its not only the financials they are after. Look at their use of child welfare and protection to leverage the morals of society.

Their work in child welfare allows them to play with legislation and practice, as well as taking away children from those they don't like.

Today it's drug addicts, and (still) single mothers, in the past it was aboriginies, migrants, and in many cases, mixed marraiges (racial, as well as religious).

They especially liked removing children of interfaith catholic and anglican marriages.

Institutions they ran, from laying in homes, and private hospitals were up to their eyeballs in stealing children for their adoption trade. They certainly weren't adverse to breaking supreme court laws to do so!

Anyone who believes that Australia is not a church-state run nation is seriously deluded.

A small look at the practice and administration of child welfare should be enough to convince everyone that church-state initiatives and relationships are highly damaging and dangerous.

Ask the 92 kids who died in NSW last year who were known to the church-state agency, the NSW Department of Community Services.

That will be the 92 kids who died and nobody gave a stuff!

I think it got a whole 3 inches in the Australian media!

At that rate, DOCS and its Church mates will be responsible for 1000 child deaths in a decade. Because the churches are involved, everyone will be happy to accept DOC's continual ineffective reform 'efforts'.

And despite DOCS giving almost half of its $1 billion + budget to the churches each year- evangelising agencies that have year after year had qualified auditor statments issued in their annual reports (except for the lucky ones who were incorporated under a State Act who are required by law to hide their financials!)- there hasn't been one investigation by the NSW Independant Commission Against Corruption.

Now in tyhe last decade- DOCS has given churches billions of dollars, and even with the cover up of sex abuse by staff and clergy- and their claims that they don't know what child abuse is!- still no investigation.

HMMMMMMMM
Posted by J Christian Murray, Tuesday, 13 December 2005 9:45:02 AM
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Hillsong has been visited by both Mr Howard and Mr Costello. At their recent conference a prominet visitor was Joyce Meyer Televangelist from the US. She according to an article in Christianity Today was being investigated by the IRS. She was paying herself and her husband to much for what was supposed to be non-profit org. Her children and Inlaws served on the board, she bought holiday homes for her children, the landscaping was paid out of ministry funds.
Hillsong is indirectly associated with Family First. Other Pentecostal churches are also. In Beenleigh Christian Outreach Church asked te local Family First candidate to speak to the member on a Sunday before the last election and asked for support at the polling booths. No other party was asked to speak.
Posted by aussieson99, Tuesday, 27 December 2005 4:31:01 PM
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the church is the people who attend...my friends and i attend church...we do not 'fleece' people...we believe that if we have extra prosperity, we give to others who don't...none of us has been 'fleeced' by the church leaders or impoverished in any way by attending church...some of us have money and some don't...there is a belief that the bible preaches against money...it preaches against greed...there were many wealthy people in the new testament church who financed the many charitable endeavours of the church...perhaps this is the crux of what many of you objectors object to...you dislike the church having enough money to carry on what it does...unfortunately we live in a material world and things require money...maybe you'd like the church to lay down and die....sorry, but we're not ready to do that, not now, not ever...get used to it
Posted by sonlight, Tuesday, 17 January 2006 12:22:47 PM
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People out of their own envy or lack of contentment are always looking to slander others. These prominment preachers do not hold down people to purchase their murchandise nor do they carry people into their meetings. So who cares? Is it there fault that people enjoy there words and find liberation in their books? It says in the Bible that some preach Christ out of envy some out of selfish ambition and some out of love but what does it matter as long as Christ is preached. God is judge. I do beleive that ministry funds should always be accesable to the public certainly when we are dealing with ministries of such a size. However i wish people would stop looking at ministers to put them down. It seems that most people have a fear of God but not a faith so seek to justify their lack of faith by putting down others as a means of appealing to their own consciences that the selfish life they are living is fine.
Posted by Hello, Friday, 5 May 2006 2:54:13 PM
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