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The Forum > Article Comments > Boys must be boys > Comments

Boys must be boys : Comments

By Dave Smith, published 29/11/2005

Dave Smith argues boys would benefit from an initiated rite into manhood - in the boxing ring

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Nula wrote: "Read Rex's comment, and don't confuse diverse masculinity with stereotypical femininity, which is another indicator of the narrowness of your understanding of gender."

Diverse masculinity, as you term it, is probably OK in at least most forms but don't be telling me to read anything without first acknowledging that others including myself HAVE mounted logical well thought out arguements for Fr Dave's original proposition. I/we accept your proposition, please don't disregard all others, it makes you look arrogant.

I don't really mind if you want to fondle your mate in the name of diverse masculinity, just don't expect everyone to feel the same way you (or your mates) do.

Some may wish to box inside the ring, others may opt to fit engine rings, while some may prefer to get punched around the ring; it's all a question of individual choice really, isn't it?
Posted by Give 'em enough rope, Monday, 12 December 2005 11:02:02 PM
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Give 'em enough rope,

Thank you for your acknowledgement. And hopefully you can see the irony in some of your sarcasm and abuse.

If you look at my previous postings you might note that i have not made any negative comments about the fighting arts or any fighting sports. I used to train in kickboxing between the ages of 17 and 19 and i loved every moment of it. BUT, it had nothing to do with my being male. In this forum i have simply challenged some of the values and beliefs which i believe underpin Dave Smith's proposition.

Here is a summary of what i think is going on here, in regard to Dave Smith's article and some of the responses:

1.) Boys and men take up fight training to varying degrees, an entirely satisfying behaviour for mind and body, which allows them to release their frustrations etc. (this is great.)
2.) Some subscribe to the culture which says this as a very 'masculine' behaviour, and hence makes them more of a man, or as a man, it is what they should be doing, naturally.
3.) Some take to this culture so much that they subsequently generalise it out to all other males, believing the construct (experience and interpretation) of which they have been a part is the one best (or even natural) way for males.
4.) Anyone who disagrees with or challenges that value system is labelled or abused, including being called homosexual or stereotypically feminine, and other attempts at character assassination.
5.) Go back to step 2.), and reconsider why you took up the sport in the first place and what it means to you now.

Steps 1-4 look very familiar, what do you think?
Posted by nula, Tuesday, 13 December 2005 6:56:59 PM
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I checked with my 10 year old son last night, and asked him if he thought I was a good father. He gave me full marks, I'm relieved to say. I asked him if there was any way I could be a better father. He said I could give him a bit more pocket money. Fortunately his birthday is next week, and he'll get a $1 a week pay rise.

He didn't mention a desire to go into the ring and box, though he is quite sporty, and enjoys football, cricket, T-ball, cycling etc. Not to say he might change his mind in his teens.

So I'm proud of the way I'm fathering him. Above all, I'm proud of the fact that he is learning to be tolerant of other peoples' views, to think before he decides how problems could be solved, and to consider more than just one option. These are, in my view, signs of someone who has been competently brought up. Signs which are singularly lacking amongst some contributors to this forum, who denigrate and abuse those they disagree with.

If Dave is having success with his boxing approach with his kids, good on him.

As far as my son is concerned, I believe it would do him more harm than good
Posted by AMSADL, Thursday, 15 December 2005 9:22:24 AM
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It sounds like you're doing a great job as a father, well done. That your son is into sports is a great thing, whatever kind they may be.

I think this issue probably relates best to boys who have few, if any, 'good' role models. Those that have grown up in single parent (father deserts them) homes, or abusive or drug affected environs and may be inclined to stray onto the wrong side of life.

Perhaps, also to those that have been born with a silver spoon in the gilded gobs, to learn that the ring is a great equaliser of men and that nothing will excuse poor preparation in life. We should all understand the meaning and benefits of hard work.

Nulla and AMSADL, both of you raise good points about your views on manhood, or at least getting there. Nulla, I hope you know my 'abuse' as you put it, was only a sorry attempt at some humour because, in boxing parlance, you'd stuck your chin out a bit!

My memories of why I got into boxing was that my father had passed away a few months before I was born and it was my mother's desire to fill my life with as many positive male role models and activities as she could. I thank her for it regularly, as it has given me a host of strengths that I draw on regularly. Confidence, assertiveness and the ability to seek closure in situations when the opportunity presents most certainly, but also compassion and understanding from seeing the amount of preparation goes into participating in the sport and the disappointment that can sometimes be associated with losing.

All good life lessons.
Posted by Give 'em enough rope, Thursday, 15 December 2005 4:40:58 PM
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Well said GEER.

I'm a great believer in trying different options in any situation. If something doesn't work, then there's no point in carrying on doing it. Clearly for much of our problem kids, leaving them in a situation where they get no direction, no boundaries, no objectives is a recipe for disaster. Whilst I am against violence per se as a solution to problems, I can see that the routine, the fitness improvement, the direction, and just being with mature men who are taking an interest in their well-being is far better than leaving them to their own devices, as long as it is appropriate for the boy concerned. For some it clearly will not be appropriate. I'm sure Dave will also be drilling into them the need to leave their punches in the ring, not to use them to 'solve' problems at home, school etc.

The challenge then is to say, for those problem boys who don't want to get in the ring, what other options can they be given.

Some have suggested the army option. My problem with this option is that I've never been able to see how training people to kill, to use guns, to take orders without questioning their validity, is good for them and for society. Especially when we see how armed forces become, not a means for validly defending the country, but a political tool, manipulated by unscrupulous men / women who would never dream of putting themselves or their own sons / daughters on the front line.

My belief is that as a society, we are heading down the path of giving fathers (and mothers) less and less time with their kids, in the pursuit of economic growth. If work is seen as the only important thing in life, and if men continue to replace time with the families with time at work, then we are going to produce more and more children who lack good parenting. Why should we be surprised when they fall off the conveyor belt and have to be picked up by the likes of Dave.
Posted by AMSADL, Friday, 16 December 2005 9:03:08 AM
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