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The Forum > Article Comments > Champion of interfaith dialogue > Comments

Champion of interfaith dialogue : Comments

By Bashir Goth, published 30/8/2005

Bashir Goth tells the life and achievements of Sheikh Ahmed Deedat, a Muslim and promoter of interfaith dialogue.

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Reality Check,
If you review history, the ascendancy of Islam was no different to the ascendancy of Christianity – both were invasion and forced conversion. That Christianity has moderated in the last 100 years or so gives no moral standing to a conflict of faiths now. Christian history is full of exploitation, bloodshed and invasion.

My simple point was… how did that JC guy say it? “He who is without sin, cast the first stone”
Posted by Reason, Tuesday, 6 September 2005 12:25:31 AM
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Reason,

I think the first 400 years of Christianity - ie persecution and state sanctioned slaugther of UNARMED devotees - is a little bit different to the early (and subsequent?) history of Islam - armed soldiers and forced conversions.

That Christians shamelessly fought amongst themselves conquered & established colonies and from time to time defended themselves against Islam has ensured that we can use this forum.

Sure the inappropriate actions of many 'christians' (all without sanction by JC!) are points of shame, but, not so 'fullsome' as you claim. When Islam can claim 400 years of peaceful preaching and state persecution, then we can start comparing apples.

Those 400 years plus your 100 years (under dreadful humanist regimes such as Nazism, Communism etc)= 500 years of thoughtful Christianity, now, lets see if the Koran or the actions of its Prophet has anything that might be contrary to peaceful co-existance?

Ultimately, we are dealing with people following a paradigm of behaviour based on the writings and historical actions of their religious founders.

Which is the better foundation? Who provides the better rule of law? Sure, complain about bad christians, but, you have to acknowledge the seminal role of Christianity in sureing up modern western culture & freedoms. Of course, Shari'a is always an option and ultimately Islam will have the numbers.
Posted by Reality Check, Tuesday, 6 September 2005 9:26:51 AM
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Reality check,

Corrections:

1.Islam co-existed with other religions always:
When Islam came to Egypt, Christians and their properties were protected (churches are still there until today and people kept their faith).
Please check writing of credible writers either Karen Armstrong or Dr Milad Hanna (An Egyptian Christian historian). In fact, Islam didn't become the religion of the majority in Egypt until another 500 years.

2. Check William Muir "history of Islam" on the forced conversion myth.

3. The Quoran is clear on accepting other religion specially christianity and Judaism. The Koran makes no distinction between prophets (4: 152-177) and even states that good Christians can go to heaven. Please quote me from your core teachings where do you accept that other beliefs can go to heaven.

4. The 'crusades' were called so by Europeans, Islamic history was smart enough not to associate them with Christians. Salahudin period used to call them "Frengat" (French tribes attacks) so not to alienate Arab Christians.

You need to study seriously buddy.
Posted by Fellow_Human, Tuesday, 6 September 2005 1:16:36 PM
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Fellow Human

Corrections:

1.Islam co-existed with other religions always:

Dimmitude – slavery, tolerance, sufferance or freedom? See 2 below;

2. Check William Muir "history of Islam" on the forced conversion myth.

Check newspapers re Sudan, Aceh etc etc and http://www.barkati.net/english/chronology.htm and see what enlightenment Islam led between 600 AD and the 1st Crusade of 1091AD, then compare it with the 1st 400 years of Christianity (my original point!)

3. The Quoran is clear on accepting other religion specially christianity and Judaism. Given the English, German & French Catholic dominance in the defence of the West, try some Catholic documents that they (and most others) wouldn’t know about:
"Second Vatican Council's Declaration on the relation of the Church to non-Christian religions," Nostra aetate, Proclaimed by Pope Paul VI, 1965-OCT-28. See: http://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/
“The Catholic Church rejects nothing that is true and holy in these religions. She regards with sincere reverence those ways of conduct and of life, those precepts and teachings which, though differing in many aspects from the ones she holds and sets forth, nonetheless often reflect a ray of that Truth which enlightens all men.”
“The Church regards with esteem also the Moslems. ..
Dominus Iesus on the unicity and salvific universality of Jesus Christ and the church," Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith. See: http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/

4. The 'crusades' were called so by Europeans, Islamic history was smart enough not to associate them with Christians. Salahudin period used to call them "Frengat" (French tribes attacks) so not to alienate Arab Christians.

Is Salahudin the same person as Mohammed the Prophet? Didn’t think so, so back to Mohammed, not Salahudin and Attaturk and other enlightened exceptions to the Rule of Islam.

We all need to study seriously, and look around us.

Ps On Other Post - "Medieval Europe burnt 400,000 women with red hair and green eyes" - awaiting your detailed references on this one!
Posted by Reality Check, Tuesday, 6 September 2005 4:43:03 PM
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FH.. with regard to Egypt... how about detailing in point form how Islam dcame to Egypt ? :) (don't miss any bits)

I'd like to hear your version.

Reality Check.... keep up the good work. I'm sure even you and I will not agree on all things (ur Catholic ?) but I do appreciate your efforts to source your points in History. Thats the place to start and end. Never mind about 'should the hijab be banned' the issues are far bigger than that. That is but one small symptom.

Ash, have a look at the writings of Irfan on his website/blog, makes interesting reading about the social and political dynamics among Sydney Muslims.

Regards all
Posted by BOAZ_David, Tuesday, 6 September 2005 5:19:38 PM
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Reality,

Religious debate me no like!
I was referring to credible historians not theologists: William Muir (later knighted for his work) , George Sale, Karen Armstrong and Dr. Milad Hanna. Then you referred me to Catholic writers which are to me non-credible and irrelevant to the period or location. You seem to have a view and only want to see what confirms it.

BD,

Please read any of above references on how did Islam come to Egypt. (PS none of the above are muslims).

I will have a look at Irfan’s blogg. Though you BD inspired me to develop my own interfaith harmony website!.

Reality & BD,

So to focus on the subject, Islam is in modernisation phase and it won’t happen overnight but it is happening, Some key drivers are its growth within western countries which in turn, will filter out a lot of the negative influences of Arabic culture. My point is and was always the same, there is no conflict at all between the values in Islam, Christianity and Judaism either social, family, ethics, charity, etc.. The theological differences are a personal choice and according to our teachings, it is for God to judge everyone at the end. You guys need to learn and accept that Islam is a religion which some of you are still struggling with the idea. You need to embrace Muslims as brothers and show respect to their religion and not ‘embrace them until they convert’ strategy.

Best of luck,
Posted by Fellow_Human, Wednesday, 7 September 2005 3:51:04 PM
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