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The Forum > Article Comments > To London Muslims - speak out or be condemned for your silence > Comments

To London Muslims - speak out or be condemned for your silence : Comments

By Irfan Yusuf, published 8/7/2005

Irfan Yusuf sends a message to London Muslims in the wake of the terrorist bombings across the city.

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Continued

BD you state

>>But then, perhaps you speak from some lingering deep seated bitterness towards Christ, or 'the church' I have no idea, please enlighten me. The psychology of denial and sympathy you demonstrate would make a very good case study for a psychology student. This is especially true when one considers the things this man said about women, and you being one.<<

Interesting point BD, here’s what the Christian god has to say about women:

“There are, however, areas in which God's plan for women differs from that for men. In the family, God has appointed man to be the head (Ephesians 5:23). Man is to provide for the physical and spiritual needs of his wife and children (Genesis 3:17-19; 1 Timothy 5:8; Ephesians 6:4). Women have a special place in God's plan that men do not have. Women are to be helpers to their husbands, teachers of their children and keepers of the home ( Genesis 3:16; Ephesians 5:22-24; Titus 2:4,5). Men and women are different physically and psychologically. The place that God has appointed for each best suits them as God made them.”

My PLACE is where ever I want it to be.

You patronising little man, because you lack the wit to follow the thread of my posts you claim that I would make an interesting study for a psychology student. Words fail me here. You are condemned by your own misogyny.

BD you state:

>> PLEASE, don't reject factual historical accounts of real events from Islamic sources about the founder of Islam<<

No more than I will reject the factual historical accounts of real events from Christian sources about the nature of Christianity.

Now BD buy a very big mirror and take a good hard look at yourself.
Posted by Xena, Wednesday, 20 July 2005 10:50:41 AM
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BD,

Regarding Koran offending your belief;

Monotheism: “God is one, no Idols” is the spine, the pillar, the first and second commandment of all Abrahamic religions: Judaism, Christianity and Islam.

"For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled ( Law of Moses). Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven."
Matthew 5:18-19.
"And I (Jesus) have come confirming that which was before me of the Torah, and to make lawful for you part of that which was forbidden upon you. And I have come to you with a sign from your Lord so seek refuge in Allah and obey me"
Quran (3):50
Above statements are from the Bible and the Quoran. They are not meant to be offensive but rather make you think and chose a position that gives a meaning to your life. The difference between Islam and Christianity is how do we interpret the character of Jesus: if you believe God is one, Jesus is his miracle, word and the messiah then you are a Muslim. If you believe in the original sin, sacrifice, Paul teachings on God, Son and Holy spirit then you are a Christian. To every person one choice will make more sense than the other. I do not judge and for info, I buy golden crosses to some of my Christian friends for birthdays, new born babies, etc..
Re CTF (again)
Irfan and myself said the same thing: it was not an invitation to love. It was an invitation to look at Muslims as ‘lost souls in the forest’ (using the CTF pastor language) and ‘love’ them until they convert This will be my position on Muslim who will act in the same manner.
As for Shariah laws, see my next posting
Peace,
AK
Posted by Fellow_Human, Wednesday, 20 July 2005 2:27:12 PM
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BD,

1. About Shariah in general:
The punitive laws are only a small fraction of the Shariah law for muslims. The punitive legislation is supposed to be preventive/ deterrent from commtting the crime. While cutting off the hand of the thief was the only valid option 15 centuries ago, I am still of the view that the contextual hard sentence is better than soft sentence as a deterrent and I still support death sentence in the case of child rape, murder, etc…
Having said that, two things a well read person like you should admit to:
- Death sentence: the jury in murder cases are the family of the victim. They have to chose wether they spare the life of the killer or only seek compensation or forgive.
- Early Caliph Omar have actually suspended the implementation of all these laws in the time of famine and drought “hungry people are likely to steal”.

2. Now to your point on Muslims want to force the shariah:
- Nowhere have I seen or heard of Muslims who want to implement the punitive laws. All I read / hear from other muslims is the within the context of civil matters, divorce, custody, inheritance because all of that is defined for Muslims. It is similar to us accommodating Jews not to work on the Sabt (Sabbbath) by automating the pedestrian traffic light function so they don’t push the button.
- You ignore the fact that most Muslim countries apply the Christian Shariah (shariah means law) for Christian minorities in the civil matters. For example, Ehyptian Christians have no divorce (even if adultery is committed) and if they go to normal courts the cases gets dismissed and have to go to Christian religious court. To the limit that some cases have to convert to Islam ‘on paper’ so the priest separates the wife from her cheating husband after a decade of adultery.

If some Muslims want to apply some parts of the Shariah, this should not be read as disrespect of local laws. Only lawyers will be out of business!

AK
Posted by Fellow_Human, Wednesday, 20 July 2005 3:00:18 PM
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Referring to the article again, bang, bang, bang on the door babies! Now that we've got all the religious (she said, he meant stuff) out of the way, (thank god it's not a dinner party), where do we stand in this very day and age about whether London Muslims should stand, especially in the fallout reporting since this article was posted. Should garden variety muslims have to march and publicly condemn or not? Post A without hyperlinks or justifications for YES. Post B without hyperlinks or justifications for NO. Irfan, forget about going for a double century, that's just so Warnie! And does nothing for your article. I await the alphabet.
PS Xena, I know I shouldn't single you out but dammit! your posts are always so succinct.
Posted by Di, Wednesday, 20 July 2005 9:50:14 PM
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Di,
Have to agree with you, brevity only tells half the story; I await with interest a balanced post on what Biblical references are exhortations toward men. Is this the problem with atheist spinster feminists, can they present social balance? Control, control, control! Thank God for graceous and supportive wives!
Posted by Philo, Wednesday, 20 July 2005 10:41:43 PM
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Deport the clerics of hate: sheik
The Australian, Trudy Harris and Cameron Stewart, July 20, 2005 - PAGE 1.
"THE country's highest-profile Islamic leader has called for the deportation of clerics who preach violence, as part of a push to rid Australia of the "disease" of fundamentalism.
Sheik Taj Din al-Hilali compared the spread of Islamic fundamentalism in Australia to AIDS, and said he and other moderate clerics across the country must take firm steps to win the hearts and minds of impressionable young Muslims. "They are a disease like AIDS and you can't cure them with Panadol," Sheik Hilali said of radical clerics. In some of the strongest public comments yet by a senior Islamic figure in Australia, Sheik Hilali also told The Australian the sale of Islamic literature preaching hatred or violence should be banned. But the call was flatly rejected yesterday by Australia's most senior fundamentalist Islamic cleric, Sheik Mohammed Omran. "Australia is a free country and should allow all books to be sold here," Sheik Omran said. He claimed there were no Islamic clerics in Australia guilty of inciting hatred. "We do not have clerics who incite hatred here so there is no point raising the issue of deporting clerics who incite hatred because such clerics do not exist in Australia....."
At http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5744,15988222%255E601,00.htm
Posted by Philo, Wednesday, 20 July 2005 10:53:00 PM
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