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The Forum > Article Comments > Cheating, stealing liars > Comments

Cheating, stealing liars : Comments

By Sharon Hayes, published 4/5/2005

Sharon Hayes argues that the younger generation are bereft of all notions of ethics and regularly cheat in exams for example.

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In the excellent article by Sharon Hayes, one important and growing area of cheating in schools was missed, i.e. kids using parents to do their assignments. Most educational systems in Australia have consistently downgraded the importance of exams. Some subjects in Queensland do not use exams at all instead placing a heavy emphasis on assessment using assignments done at least partially at home. This naturally advantages those kids with comfortable middle-class well-educated parents because these parents are very likely to ensure that the assignment is well written and edited, and is well referenced often using home internet access. In short, the parents are cheating for their kids. Hands up those parents who give lots of help with the assignments of their children

But what about the poor child from a disadvantaged background. A parent without a high level of education, and no access to a computer or the internet has little help to offer.

The worst thing about this institutionalized cheating is that it disadvantages the children of the lower socio-economic groups to the advantage of the middle and upper class. A fair education system should be a mechanism for a kid to move out of poor socio-econmic circumstances. Over-use of assignments makes this increasingly difficult for such kids.
Posted by Ridd, Wednesday, 4 May 2005 12:40:47 PM
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I tend to think the shift away from ethics in the younger generation might also be a reflection of the visible acceptance of unethical behaviour in public life.

Politicians of all persuasions appear to believe that it is OK to mislead (lies or omission of crucial details etc) the public.

Celebrities brag about their unethical behaviour, lawyers openly advertise based on "small injury, big $".

Church leaders protect paedophiles in the interest of the churches reputation.

The leagl system seems to care very little about fair play or right and wrong.

Some of that stuff has been happening for a long time but the acceptance of it in the media is much more pronounced than it used to be. How can we expect kids growing up to look to ethical behaviour when our society appears to condone and promote the least ethical to the spotlight?
Posted by R0bert, Wednesday, 4 May 2005 1:59:28 PM
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And the kids whose parents divorce because one or both of them are cheating.

Sorry though, I cannot agree with Ridd and her idea of institutionalised cheating in the form of parents.

The kids that perform best at school are nearly always going to be the ones who have parents who care about their education.

While mum and dad should not complete assignments, the kids with parents that help will do better and should not feel guilty about it.

Remove assignments and just have exams and it will be the kids whose parents encourage them to study and work hard who will no doubt be better represented at the top of the class.

Are you going to ban parents being involved in their kids education because it disadvantages those whose parents are not as committed.

Sorry this a little off topic but Ridd brought it up in the first place - parents helping and encouraging their children should not be considered part of this cheating epidemic Sharon Hayes writes about.

In fact the more parents who actively engage in the education of their kids, the less likely they will want to, or need to cheat.

t.u.s
Posted by the usual suspect, Wednesday, 4 May 2005 2:19:34 PM
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An issue raised by this discussion is the way the governement has trivialised education. It is no longer about self improvement and development of the person but rather the creation of units of input for the economy. Increased HECS, the abolishment of student unions, budget cuts to courses, the erradication of the arts and the move towards those courses that prepare students for specific vocational pursuits.(Business) No wonder students do not consider the accumulation of intellectual skills as important as getting the peice of paper and to start paying it off. This government gave up on that higher learning emphasis years ago in favour of the almighty dollar and the eradication of independant/dissenting thought. You reap what you sow.
Posted by Bob B, Wednesday, 4 May 2005 2:20:52 PM
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I agree, a good and thought-provoking article.

Also (and somewhat refreshingly) I find myself in almost total agreement with R0bert and t.u.s. on this issue. Our kids are exposed to an unprecedented array of poor role models via the media, and if their parents don't actively counter them (preferably by example) then whence are young people going to derive their values and principles?

I also don't think that the provision by parents of encouragement, assistance, resources etc should ever be viewed negatively. Indeed, as a parent of a couple of school-age kids it is clear to me that the public system in Queensland is dependent at least to some extent on the active co-operation with parents - homework begins early, is regular and ongoing and requires a certain amount of parental vigilance to ensure that it's done properly.

Sure, that doesn't mean you do your kids' homework for them - because that wouldn't really be helping them, would it? I take the point that kids who don't get such support are disadvantaged, which is why I support affirmative action programs targeted at such kids.

I also agree with Bob B that what we are witnessing in our kids is a logical outcome of the recent ascendancy of 'economic rationalism', now morphing into 'neo-conservatism'.

To my mind a perfect example of the mixed messages which we proffer to our kids is to be found in the conscription of Kingaroy schoolkids in the veneration of a deceased, corrupt and tainted politician, who is lauded for his part in stimulating the economic development of Queensland, as if that excuses the countless acts of undemocratic, environmentally damaging and corrupt behaviour committed under his aegis for nearly 20 years.
Posted by garra, Wednesday, 4 May 2005 3:04:18 PM
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I agree too with Robert and the others. It's a case of Monkey See, Monkey Do. When young people, and I'm 30, I speak with experience here, witness much acts of corruption, self-indulgence, greed etc by our leaders in government, business, academia, media etc, I could be almost forgiven for thinking that if these guys can tell a lie, I can too. Among the worst of business groups include our industries of defense, tobacco, gambling, property, real estate, media etc. I'm sure that there are others. Our politicians prostitute themselves to these industry groups.

There has been a somewhat growth in American-type fundamentalist christian sects among folks under 40 of lower and middle SES, and/or their progeny. These sects rail against matters like abortion, homosexuality etc, but are often silent on issues of local poverty, inequality, our treatment of the poor and refugees. They command at the same time multi-million dollar turnovers in sales of "self-help" products and also the operation of highly profitable tax-exempt businesses that sometimes undercut local small business. Add to this the sins of the fathers in older traditional groups like the Catholic Church, and you can see that religious leaders are no paragon of virtue either!

What's needed here urgently is positive leadership from those who have power in our community.
Posted by Inner-Sydney based transsexual, indigent outcast progeny of merchant family, Wednesday, 4 May 2005 11:33:32 PM
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Another reason kids cheat, lie, and steal in American schools is because they are becoming increasingly aware that they are being cheated, lied to, and robbed. That sounds harsh and melodramatic, so let me explain myself.

Here in the States, educators are trained to tell kids how wonderful they are and to build their students' self-esteem through flattery. Kids are no dumber today than I was. When my teachers laid it on thick, I knew they were lying. It just increased my anxiety when I was little, then my cynicism when I was older.

The anxiety level is much worse now. (I graduated high school in 81 and am now an educator). Kids are driven to prepare for standardized tests like the SAT and ACT. The President has told us that is what we are teaching them for. They are driven batty over getting into college. They do their homework to get a grade - disregarding and/or never made aware of any higher purpose.

Education promises too much and delivers too little to the student. The main effect of teaching here is to communicate angst - systemically and personally. So the students are becoming sycophants and cynics. "If I do everything the way the system expects it done, I'll move up the system. Then I'll get a high level job in the next system."

We forgot some time ago that we are teaching human beings. Or else we forgot what a human being is.
Posted by akern, Thursday, 5 May 2005 7:53:49 AM
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Thanks for an excellent article Sharon.

"One recent attempt to address the dearth has been developed by a group of academics and educators in Brisbane (including the author), who are working on a program to design and implement an interactive multimedia online ethics program for use by students across a range of grades in both primary and high school."

I'm very interested in having a look at the program, but the link in your article doesn't seem to work. Could you please post the complete URL?

Cheers, Jane
Posted by jane, Thursday, 5 May 2005 10:22:38 AM
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There is some interesting consistency in the responses here, but I am not at all sure the answer lies in education. If the consensus is that the problem exists in the examples the kids see all round them, provided "..by our leaders in government, business, academia, media etc", then that's where any solution lies.

Exposing the kids to a form of "ethics" training within the education system cannot possibly solve this, and might in fact make the problem worse. If there is a massive discrepancy between what they are taught in school and what they see every evening on the news, the teaching will look a touch hypocritical.

The answer of course is in getting adults to behave, starting with that mythical creature, the honest politician, followed by honest businessmen and a responsible media industry.

Since the likelihood of this is zero, all we can look forward to are creative approaches to damage limitation. Not a particularly attractive prospect.
Posted by Pericles, Thursday, 5 May 2005 10:34:13 AM
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Akern - "They do their homework to get a grade - disregarding and/or never made aware of any higher purpose." - you're absolutely right, and it starts early. I was relief teaching in a Prep class just yesterday - had been asked by their teacher to do some work with them on addition. When I asked the question "Why is it important that we know how to add?" the resounding response was "So we can learn the right answers".

Sorry this is probably a bit off the topic and seemingly quite trivial, but I think it is one small example of where education has gone fundamentally astray. The myopic bureaucrats who dictate educational policy are obsessed with assessing and measuring everything against pre-determined outcomes. Teachers who want to do more, who want to instil things like critical thinking in their students, face an uphill struggle. Is it any wonder that our kids are getting all the wrong messages?
Posted by jane, Thursday, 5 May 2005 10:47:50 AM
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Pericles I agree with you in part about politicians, businesspeople ( not just men)and the media needing to set a better example but it first has to come with parents.

If parents instill ethics and sense of right and wrong early, the kids will be more likely to question people in positions of power like the pollies.

It also helps them at school which in turn helps teachers and education in general.

Parents need to be the biggest influence on kids lives and if children have good role models in their parent(s) than they will be better off in the long run and may not feel the need to cheat.

t.u.s
Posted by the usual suspect, Thursday, 5 May 2005 12:12:31 PM
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tus, very well put.
Posted by R0bert, Thursday, 5 May 2005 7:13:51 PM
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To make society work ,you have to convince at least 85% of them not to cheat since no one will want to work.We are fast reaching a situation where more are willing to cheat and our social and thus economic system is under threat.
When you can't trust those with whom you do business,no amount of law making or legality will counter this imbalance.Eventually our society will become dysfunctional.

Perhaps the old fogeys knew a bit more about values and morality than we are willing to admit?
Posted by Arjay, Thursday, 5 May 2005 9:40:39 PM
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I tend to distinguish between morals and ethics. Morals equates to much for me with sexual codes handed down from a religion. It so often appears that people who go to great pains about their morals can have ethics that let them choose to harm others for their own gain. There are those who have morals which would appear to be an abomination to the religious and yet have great ethics and I know which I would rather have as a friend.

Comments made by Arjay brought to mind how little regard their appears to be for some law's except where a penalty is looming. There is one intersection I cross on my way to work at which very few people wait for the "Walk" sign at the pedestrian crossing, most of the time I do but if I'm running late for the train? Trivial item and most of us probably sit at deserted intersections in our car when the lights are against us (and wonder why) but it does give pause for thought. Walking against the lights is normally a victimless crime as much as any is but does it reflect something about the way we are going with regard to behaviour?
Posted by R0bert, Friday, 6 May 2005 7:37:57 AM
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Not sure I agree with you on the moral/ethical split. In my view, morals are about a personal attitude towards right and wrong - and not necessarily only sexual right and wrong, even though the concept of immorality is most often associated with that aspect.

I see ethics as a more codified version of morals, extended from the individual to the group. Which tends to be why otherwise moral and upright citizens sometimes act unethically within a business - they have abandoned their moral standards in favour of conforming to the group dynamic.

And as with business (government, media etc.) so it is with schools and exams. If the ethic is to cheat, otherwise moral people will simply "go along" with it, unless they bring with them a sufficiently strong moral code from home.

Fifteen years ago I worked for a company that lacked any sense of ethics at a corporate level - they are now, as a direct result of this, regarded as one of the most successful companies in the world. I chose to work within my moral values, and as a result was fired within a year. If I had been just a little more desperate to stay employed, I could have buried my morality and become successful too, the only penalty being my own sense of fair play. It is a choice I would make again, too, not from any sense of piety or holier-than-thou-ness, but because my morality was out of synch with their ethics and made it impossible for me to be productive in the way they wanted me to be.

The same applies to exam cheats, only it is even more difficult for them to "buck the system".
Posted by Pericles, Friday, 6 May 2005 9:05:56 AM
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Sad but true....
My late father was a wonderful man; kind hearted, selfless, highly ethical/ moral, etc. He pretty much stuck to his convictions thoughout his life, alot of which I didn't agree with , but thats not unusual. ;) I do have the highest admiration for his ability to stick to his guns.

Unfortunately he was a small businessman. Whilst he certainly stuck to his guns, his competitors used (what he considered to be) "unethical" methods. Indeed sometimes such methods were often dishonest and barely, if at all, legal. :O So predictably, my father went under. He did have a small core of customers who stayed loyal to him and his principals, however, these people were elderly nursing home residents and were therefore part of a "dying breed", if you like. Whilst his sound ethical business principals and practise were fine for 1950's and 60's Australia, the 1970's and 80's were not kind. The 90's well....
at least he began to work for someone else, until it was time to retire. Even then the boss treated him like crap, but he plodded along as usual, bless him.

My father passed away in the late 90's. If he were still alive today, he would be struggling finacially. He lost his super as well as his business. Whilst I do NOT condem my father for his strict ethical and moral convictions(the personal qualities of somebody are paramount really, not his or her profit margin), you have to eat at the end of the day.

The point of this story? Is it any wonder young people cheat and lie their way through school, uni and er... life, when the way our society is structured alvolves "getting ahead" and using virtually any means possible?

Cheers all!
Posted by silent minority, Friday, 6 May 2005 10:27:19 AM
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Pericles, your comments make a lot of sense. I probably use the differentiation between morals and ethics to try and step away from morality being defined by "christian sexual codes". For me cheating is wrong because of the betrayal of trust rather than what gets put where.

Behaving ethically can certainly cost when dealing with someone who does not choose to do so. Don't ever try it on for size in a Family Law dispute, it is heartbreaking.

I hold with the view that the manner I choose to live is the one thing in my life I can truly control. The willingness to suffer harm rather than give into wrongdoing is a mark of something which seems to be of value (don't really like the harm part though). Giving in to wrongdoing for expediency is a slippery slope that can be hard to step back from.
Posted by R0bert, Monday, 9 May 2005 9:21:24 AM
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