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The Forum > Article Comments > Should we change for the church or should the church change for us? > Comments

Should we change for the church or should the church change for us? : Comments

By Peter Sellick, published 27/4/2005

Peter Sellick argues that the church must maintain the integrity of its rituals.

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This is really a question of whether “Church” is and wants to be

a part of

or

apart from

Contemporary Society.

Being a part of -
If the Church believes it wants to be a vibrant and relevant institution at the heart of modern society it better get used to the idea that it has to “change” and move with the society it wishes to be at the heart of.

Being apart from -
If the Church believes it is something static, separate and insular, steeped in tradition and some glorious past, not needing to reflect the values of contemporary society, then so be it – its influence will become even less relevant and continue in a spiral of accelerating decline.

So simply put – the world will always turn, it stops for no man – regardless of what claims may be made by any to speak the “word” of God.
Posted by Col Rouge, Tuesday, 3 May 2005 8:25:09 AM
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Sorry for not being able to respond and follow up as promised, Flu and and extreme business upturn conspired to lay me low from this cherished forum.

Di, you are adding to my words and injecting your biases into what I say. I didn't say 'under the church' in regard to cultural balance, I was speaking about culture in general.

John, re Feuerbach, one doesnt have to dig too far to see what lies behind these "Great Thinkers" who reduce God to an invention or projection of man.. behold :)
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Now, some Quotes from a mr Engels (of Marx/Engels...no 'christian' bias here)

"Feuerbach, who on every page preaches sensuousness, absorption in the concrete, in actuality, becomes thoroughly abstract as soon as he begins to talk of any other than mere sex relations between human beings.

Thus, finally, with Feuerbach sex love becomes one of the highest forms, if not the highest form, of the practice of his new religion.
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So, John, I strongly suspect that the God Feuerback has manufactured is one who appears to match his predilection with sex. Or, putting it another way, he reduces the real God, to one who is managable and nothing more than a reflection of our own sensual desires.

If this accorded with the fullness of the Bible, it might be remotely acceptable, but it doesn't. The God of Israel always had world redemption in mind. God was constantly calling the Israelites AWAY from sensuality but the 'natural' man produces a god who needs cult prostitutes, who glories in all manner of pagan rites including the sacrifice of babies etc. So the idea that God is a projection of 'our' minds simply does not stand up to serious scrutiny.

For everyone, it appears there is a huge gulf between the understanding of Christianity/Christ and the Bible which is in many of your minds here, and the reality itself. I'm seeing so many cliche'd myths and media stereotypes here that its quite unfunny.
How about we look more closely at the Bible itself and then rejoin our happy group :)
blessings all
Posted by BOAZ_David, Tuesday, 3 May 2005 8:37:40 AM
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Col, welcome back :)

but you along with a few others seem to have the view that "The Church" is on its last gasp. I didn't feel that way when along with 37,000 other Christians at Telstra dome some weeks back we were all rejoicing in our Lord.
I think there is a big misconception out there about Church. Justified in part by some manifestations of it, from the dry formalism of the high Anglican and Roman Catholic, to the rather shallow exuberance of some of the Charismatics. Some had a good beginning, but a lousy finish. Even my own tradition (Open Brethren) began as a reaction against the formalism, only to substitute their own version in time ("Thou shalt NOT remove thy coat on 35deg days in the morning meeting" kind of thing) but in many cases became entrenched in its own legitimacy and sense of correctness that quite a number are literally dying out, as the older ones pass on, having not adapted worship and fellowship to a changing world. We don't have to compromise our morality to remain relevant. We will not give up on they key issues of which I'm sure ur all aware, but our survival doesn't depend on us suddenly welcoming gay priests or accepting abortion etc, it depends on just one thing, faithfulness to Christ, and enjoying the liberating freedom that knowing Him brings to us.
Posted by BOAZ_David, Tuesday, 3 May 2005 11:46:08 AM
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Peter, I have read many of your articles posted in this forum and have found them and your framework for approaching the bible both thought-provoking and helpful. Your close, contextual reading of scripture in reflecting on pressing and perplexing issues is refreshing and sorely needed - solid biblical exploration and intelligent social "commentary" often seem to drift into disconnected realms. Of course, some things I disagree with - such as the quick leap to support violent response to violence (How celebrating Life displaces celebrating God) in an otherwise excellent article. However, I have found the article "In the company of Mary" and this article on baptism encouraging and challenging reminders of the utterly distinct, deep, and life-giving Christ. You may be interested in Laurenti Magesa on Christology, African Women and Ministry. See: www.sedos.org/english/magesa.htm
Posted by AliJ, Tuesday, 3 May 2005 3:36:13 PM
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Just to attempt to clear up a few points here.

Voodoo derives from a group of very old African religions that have been around for at least 10,000 years and is far older than Christianity. It has been viciously maligned here by our Christian friends in the same ignorant way all the Pagan religions have been denigrated. (eating babies and such rubbish... by the way, Christianity was accused of this once, it is a common slur by one religion about another).

Equally, the bone dingo lack of knowledge about the roots of Christianity and other religions along with the basic common doctrines of Christianity in the general community amazes me, the churches have to lift their game.

An example:-

Over the last 10 years or so I have asked every Catholic I have met (a straw poll, maybe 60+ people) what is meant by the term "Immaculate Conception". With the exception of one person they all said "Immaculate conception is the same as Virgin Birth" These people had all passed through the Catholic school system. (the one exception who knew the answer was a Bob Santamaria clone whose name would be familiar to some of you)

Similarly, Peter mentions general ignorance about the purpose of certain rites in the Churches such as baptism and the Eucharist.
Maybe the original meaning of these rites is now so foreign to most people they have become infathomable. Maybe belief in spirits and miracles is become harder as well in the modern world. Blame the secular education system. Compusory religious instruction in schools perhaps? Theocracy?
Posted by Priscillian, Tuesday, 3 May 2005 7:04:19 PM
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Priscillian - Voodoo may be the derivitive of various old African religions but it itself was born in Haiti during the years of European occupation. It's about 200 years old. Another fact is that about 75% of the Haitian people identify themselves as Catholic. Yet 50% of the population admit to practicing Voodoo. Just as they have adopted elements of old African religions, they have also adopted elements of Christianity as well.
Posted by bozzie, Tuesday, 3 May 2005 7:44:38 PM
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