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The Forum > Article Comments > What happened to John Paul II's social justice message? > Comments

What happened to John Paul II's social justice message? : Comments

By Bruce Duncan, published 6/4/2005

Bruce Duncan argues the Pope was consistently outspoken on the war of the powerful against the weak.

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How can the Catholic Church really consider itself serious about the issues raised by Bruce Duncan (in particular poverty, hunger and environmental sustainability)when the Church is so evidently against the empowerment of women. Effective birth control puts women in control of their lives, generally improves their health, reduces infant mortality and generally improves the standard of living of their families and communities. Furthermore, the environment benefits when countries both improve living standards and curb population growth and one of the most effective way is through the education and empowerment of women. To quote Patrick Moore, this leaves no place for patriarchy, religious fundamentalism or dictatorships.
Posted by Jennifer, Wednesday, 6 April 2005 12:18:46 PM
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Jennifer, I do not think that the last pope was against the 'empowerment' of women. I think he saw that women were 'best' empowered by their role as mothers and wives and that it was 'wrong' for them to seek to deny their biology by choosing not to be mothers and wives as their first priority.

Don't get me wrong, I certainly do not agree with him but rather than denigrate him for being a hypocrite, or rage against his ignorance and problems that his beliefs created, I think it may be more useful to see him in terms of a person who simply did not have the knowledge or experience to effectively use the power that he had - like so many others in positions of power.

Graham is this off topic? It certainly is not about the article but it is a response to the writer. I will not be offended if you delete because it does not contribute postiively to the forum.
Posted by Mollydukes, Wednesday, 6 April 2005 1:56:58 PM
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Mollydukes, your comments while not directly on topic provided an insight into comments made by Jennifer which did appear to be on topic. A useful insight into the limitations facing someone coming from such a strong ideological basis trying to address issues which are not easily addressed within that ideology. (what a mounthful that became).

It is useful to remember that to some extent we all face a similar quandry, we work from where we are at. Opportunity exists for all of us to move but the stronger our ideological basis the harder to move (in any direction). Best to be judged on what we did with what we had rather than on where we got to.
Posted by R0bert, Wednesday, 6 April 2005 2:49:44 PM
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Seems to me that you are all on topic in the sense that Jennifer is raising an issue as to whether Bruce is reading the situation correctly because of the Pope's position on these of social justice. If he favoured the powerless against the powerful, aren't his views on women a contradiction of this.
Posted by GrahamY, Wednesday, 6 April 2005 10:00:32 PM
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I can't see how kiddies getting diddled up by Catholic Priests, or millions of Catholics dying of aids in Africa is consistant with the singular pursuit of social justice.

Perhaps the next Pope will address the fundamental issues of Priests being allowed to marry and the use of condoms to combat aids. Some re-vamping and spring-cleaning of Catholic doctorine needs to happen before the Catholic Church can truly claim to be the champion of the weak.
Posted by Cranky, Wednesday, 6 April 2005 10:46:57 PM
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Graham The way I see it is that the pope did not understand the power differential in the traditional relationship between a man and 'his wife', so he was not actually being hypocritical in perpetuating this situation.

It seems to me that he was so appallingly ignorant about women and their position in the world that he truly believed that women's power resided in their traditional roles.

There are men who actually live in the real world, unlike the pope, who still believe this to be the case - there is at least one who contributes to this forum.

I agree that his words about 'the poor' etc, did not contribute a brass razoo toward any real increase of social justice in the world and as Jennifer said increased the problems.

But maybe it is useful to understand that it is so often ignorance (and ideology, as RObert says) that is the reason people behave so stupidly?
Posted by Mollydukes, Thursday, 7 April 2005 10:09:53 PM
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Molly, I was actually trying to summarise what Jennifer was saying, not stating a personal position. Having said that I think you would be brave to describe someone like the Pope as being "ignorant about women and their position in the world". Interestingly he was so attached to Marian worship that the story goes he was going to make her "co-redemptress" with Christ but was dissuaded by Cardinal Ratzinger.
Posted by GrahamY, Thursday, 7 April 2005 10:37:51 PM
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I am not Roman Catholic. I have never and will never be. I disagree with the presumption of the RC priesthood to interfere in the matters of the private lives of their congregants and find something quite sinister in the idea of absolution of sins based on confession to a priest and simply uttering a few Hail-Marys.

For those of you who are interested in this Pope, a man I believe of genuine (if misplaced) conviction and belief, whose beliefs I obviously disagree with, I offer you this link.

A counter view of him and what he achieved.

http://www.counterpunch.org/connolly04052005.html

I believe any church meddling in the affairs of the secular state is a dangerous thing, be it of a Roman Catholic, fundamentalist Protestant or Muslim source. The Roman Catholic “priest class” did, for so many centuries wield power on an enormous scale, a power maintained by the systematic application of terror against its own congregants and “heretics” alike.

This articles title "The Pope Who Revived the Office of the Inquisition" is chilling reminder of what "Roman Catholicism" was and can be about.

The decline and demise of ALL religious authority is long overdue and the world will be a better place when it is free of the insidious influences which they still attempt to exercise.
Posted by Col Rouge, Friday, 8 April 2005 8:42:46 AM
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Credit may be due Pope John Paul II on some counts - eg, his role in the collapse of the communist bloc, his influence in bringing many young people to the church - but he failed miserably in other areas. He must be held accountable for abdicating his responsibility to protect children within the church from paedophile priests by failing to remove bishops and cardinals who knowingly protected those priests from discovery and prosecution. Hardly protecting the weak. He also steadfastly refused to consider any non-dogmatic positions on key social topics such as birth control, divorce, female clergy, celibacy, and homosexuality. His ultraconservative positions on these issues - in direct opposition to those espoused by John Paul I - drove many people away from the church. Whilst travelling the world cultivating Vatican influence with the powerful, he also cultivated a Vatican deficit in excess of $200 million. This pope was more interested in the primacy of the church than he was in protecting the weak and powerless.
Posted by jane, Saturday, 9 April 2005 10:19:00 AM
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It would appear that all you anti-papists think that the Church has Jedi like mind control over those who, in varying degrees, give assent to the Catholic faith. Get out of bed or stay asleep, but don't keep on with this sleep walking attitude that 'my' actions are stiffled by the Pope' convictions & leadership.

As you all appear to be clearly rejecting JP II's message, what are you worried about? Get ye to the bowels of Africa and stop those mercenaries and warlords and then I may respect you for your actions rather than empty words. Meanwhile, I'll keep praying for Church & UN staff prepared to risk their lives to bring some level of civilisation to the people of Dafur etc.
Posted by Reality Check, Monday, 11 April 2005 5:37:12 PM
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