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The Forum > Article Comments > Wave goodbye to Aussie law > Comments

Wave goodbye to Aussie law : Comments

By Michael Bosscher, published 2/9/2005

Michael Bosscher argues our young people need to be educated about the dangers of overseas travel.

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There is more to suggest Australia could be more consistent rather than "do more" with its approach to citizens caught up in overseas criminal justice systems. If not more consistent then more transparent and up front about it is they do.

Corby seemd to get a great deal of support compared to the Bali nine. It was reported we gave her access to a couple of QCs; we have no idea what the 9 have been offered - it would seem as if Corby scored higher on the "tit to talent ratio" than the Bali nine she was - at least up until her conviction a winner.

David Hicks seems to have got not a lot - when compared to citizens of other jurisdictions.

What is if equal concern is the evaporation of the assumption of innocence in the minds of many Australians when one of ours is nabbed for drug possesion for example - if convicted it would be reasonable to leave them to the mercy of the courts - I say that with some qualification in light of some of the sentences and jail conditions - but up to that point they warrant help and support
Posted by sneekeepete, Friday, 2 September 2005 12:48:29 PM
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Most of us already know being Australian doesn't protect us from the laws of other countries. As for 'educating' the ones who don't, you cannot educate 'idiots' (John Howard's description) who use or deal drugs. The Corby case alone should have been enough. After that little lesson, anyone in possession of drugs overseas deserves whatever he or she cops.
Posted by Leigh, Friday, 2 September 2005 4:25:09 PM
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Ah, Barlow and Chambers, was a movie ever made
Posted by hedgehog, Friday, 2 September 2005 4:29:23 PM
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"We would not entertain foreign governments trying to interfere with criminal cases for foreign nationals arrested here."

Really? What about the case of the Australian brutally assaulted by U.S. Marines in Townsville? Under pressure from the US, the case was moved there, and they were both aquitted in questionable circumstances.

http://en.wikinews.org/wiki/U.S._Marines_accused_of_assaulting_Australian_freed_by_U.S._military_court

Dave
Posted by borofkin, Friday, 2 September 2005 5:00:28 PM
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You must understand, borofkin, that the Americans are our very bestest friends. We have a trade agreement with them that binds us to their weird logic on patents, we are obliged to follow their Walt Disney-based rules on copyright infringement, we happily follow them into any and every military adventure they set their minds to - why should we not allow their thugs to escape our justice system too?

It always used to amuse me that wherever the US military went, they built little islands of "home" - in Germany, they even bought cars in US dollars, so they didn't have to grapple with complex matters such as exchange rates. But I have come to realise that this was one of many symptoms of their arrogant attitude towards the rest of the world, with hometown justice for the good ol' boys just another. They can't help it, it is in their nature not to think that this is unreasonable behaviour.

I like America. I've worked there, I've worked for US companies here and in Europe. But they are completely blind to anything that is remotely foreign. Which is one of many reasons why we shouldn't allow them to start wars.
Posted by Pericles, Friday, 2 September 2005 5:41:55 PM
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Thanks for the article Michael

How much more education do people need? Any Australian caught "using" or dealing in drugs in Indonesia deserves the brunt of the laws of that land. I will not support their egocentricity and their downright stupidity and criminal acts. We can all read. Their is no excuse for such acts.

Use and you set your own death penalty. Deal and you are setting your own death penalty and the potential deaths of others.

No sympathy from this end.

Cheers
Kay
Posted by kalweb, Friday, 2 September 2005 6:57:07 PM
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Good point Kalweb but one thing: These people have taken so many drugs that I doubt they could read, or undestand any word longer than 5 letters. They probably don't know what "narcotics" mean. What we need is some sort of Pictogram, showing a smiling Australian taking drugs into Bali, and then ending up being in Jail or being shot. Then I'd agree they "might", just "might" understand. You've got to realize, you're dealing with true idiocy when you're dealing with drug users.

Of course, for the drug transportes and drug sellers (who sometimes possess a spark of intelligence) there is no excuse. They can read, and they can also take a bullet for what they have done.
Posted by Unconquered_Sun, Friday, 2 September 2005 10:37:47 PM
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There mustn't be too many dumb Australians here on the mainland because it looks like they have moved to Indonesia. I must, at all costs, avoid that flight from Australia to Indonesia because each passenger seems to be subject to some form of brain bypass operation. The passengers get out at their destination and they can't read, they can't make intelligent decisions, they don't notice the absence of kangaroos and koalas etc.

Just what do they do with their brains?
Posted by Sage, Sunday, 4 September 2005 10:45:04 AM
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Your article is a helpful reminder to the 85% of Australians (who do not read daily news sevices)and need to be told the obvious. I wonder how many Aussies get into serious trouble due to their ignorance, or the fact that we do leave our law behind when we travel off shore. I estimate about 200 people anually are in this group.
Note: Civil and criminal law in the Australian justice system is also imperfect. About 20,000 Austalians are seriously effected annually because of deficiencies in our justice system at home. Do not count on any improvenemnts though because there is too much money involved for the few thousand professionals in the industry.A gravey train approaching $2b pa will not change from within.
Posted by MG, Sunday, 4 September 2005 3:31:45 PM
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Lets first quote some parts of Michael Bosscher statement;

The Australian Government will not intervene in the judicial process of other countries, and nor should it.

And

Lesson one is that Australians abroad have no special privileges

And

We cannot try to subvert another country's criminal justice system. And we cannot demand that the person be tried under our justice system.

Well, while I would not particular like any Australian national to commit crimes overseas, we can however end up being charged of any crime regardless how innocent a person might be.

Unlike Michael Bosscher, as I have set out in my 30 September 2003 published book;

INSPECTOR-RIKATI® on CITIZENSHIP
A book on CD about Australians unduly harmed.
ISBN 0-9580569-6-X

The government, once it has a treaty with another country has the obligation and duty to ensure that an Australian receives the same DUE PROCESS OF LAW as any of that countries nationals would have.
In the Hicks case, regardless that I deplore what I understand to be his conduct overseas, he is an Australian national and so far has been denied the same DUE PROCESS OF LAW as was provided to the American who was charged as an combats-man.

The issue is not that we seek to interfere with the judicial system of another country but as is clear with the David Hicks case, the Australian government neglect to pursue that an Australian national, by the treaties with the US is entitled to receive the same treatment as if he was an US citizen in regard of accountability before the law.

Months prior to the US Supreme Court ruling that the Magna Charta was still applicable I wrote to John Howard the same and he should pursue this. He obviously never did. Perhaps, a conviction would suit him better as if the US were to let David Hicks go then what will the position of the Australian government? Egg on their face, and having ignored Hicks legal rights?

It is not wanting to interfere with another countries judicial system, just to ensure Australians are not wrongly denied JUSTICE!
Posted by Mr Gerrit H Schorel-Hlavka, Monday, 5 September 2005 9:01:08 PM
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Ignorance is no justification in the eyes of any law, and admittedly the eyes of some laws suck, while Justice is blind. Whilst I do not agree that the Bali 9 deserve death (rather, an Ivan Milat), one cannot argue that it is found in a boogie board rather than strapped on one's body. Indonesian law in Australia is not a new thing, I am 43 and when I went to Bali at the ripe old age of 21 I was told, along the lines of "if you smoke it's like having sex without protection, you may get pregnant/busted" So we didn't smoke! I feel for the Bali 9, I don't think you deserve a death penalty for that. But what part of "don't strap drugs to your body coming in/out of Indonesia" didn't they understand?

20 years ago it was clear enough? Still worried somewhat about the baggage handlers and rightly so. But strapped to your body kinda sets the scene. I would hope with all the hoopla re schappelle etd that the Indonesian govt might take an amnesty on us dumb aussies and let us commute to a lesser sentence than a bullet. But they have been known to be hard barstards in the past. But no one deserves a bullett unless the're a serial killer with no remorse. And i don't think idiot kids strapping themselves to a (what they think is a future) deserve a bullet. Rather I would like to see in this country we could scare the hell out of them with our justice.
Posted by Di, Tuesday, 6 September 2005 9:48:19 PM
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Drugs can be having serious consequences, and Indonesia is entitled to punish offenders as a way seeking to protect its citizens. Having stated this, I view that using the death penalty is barbaric. Our Australian government should have a treaty in place with Indonesia that Australians will not face the death penalty, if convicted.
After all, the Delegates of the Constitution Convention Debates specifically provided constitutional powers for the commonwealth of Australia with “external affairs” so it could look after the interest of Australians abroad.
Indonesia has a right to reject our government’s request not to apply the death penalty to Australians, and then we have the right to stop trading all together with Indonesia! Sure, that may cause some hardship, but we must never place economical benefits above that of a human life, even if it is some stupid kid/adult trying to make a fast buck to smuggle drugs.
Then again, where we have a Federal government that supports the death penalty for people like Osama bin Laden, who must have disappeared with the WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION, (Perhaps find one and you may find the other also?), and as such cannot take the moral high ground to argue against the using of the death penalty by other countries, where in fact coward & co even went on a killing spree to bomb out a restaurant, and so killing the people working there, merely as to want to kill the head of State of Iraq.

QUOTE 15-9-2005
JOHN HOWARD: … my responsibility and my authority extends to the appointment of ministers. I believe that the Minister for Health and Ageing has been an outstanding minister and I have no intention of terminating his commission.
END QUOTE

For so far I am aware of the Constitution provides that the Governor-General appoints and decommission Ministers, not John Howard!
Seems to me Howard is too busy in being a dictator to care about the life’s of Australians
Posted by Mr Gerrit H Schorel-Hlavka, Tuesday, 6 September 2005 11:55:22 PM
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Mr Gerrit H Schorel-Hlavka "For so far I am aware of the Constitution provides that the Governor-General appoints and decommission Ministers, not John Howard!
Seems to me Howard is too busy in being a dictator to care about the life’s of Australians "

And as far as the GG is concerned, just like the Queen (that is after all who he represents), he acts upon the advise of his prime minister – So just as HRH QE II acts on the advise of Tony Blair – GG acts upon the advise of JH.

Suggesting John Howard is a dictator sounds like the piffling stuff of the ineffectual in whining envy of the effective.

As for the rest of this thread – you risk the death penalty by dealing drugs – so live or die with the risk – don’t come whining back here when you are caught trading in other peoples death and misery.
Corby deserves whatever she gets – darn she has fallen off the front pages recently – ignominy awaits
The Bali 9 deserve whatever they get.
Michelle Leslie will deserve whatever she gets – although I reckon she will be dealt with “lightly” because she was not in possession of a commercial quantity
Posted by Col Rouge, Tuesday, 13 September 2005 2:16:47 PM
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The Governor-General has two different positions, one is to act as Governor-General and the other is to act as Governor-General in council.

When in council it is with the advise of the relevant Minister, but the Governor-General is not bound to follow the advise of the Minister.

With all his faults of former Governor-General Hollingworth, it appears to me that he refused to publish a proclamation of DECLARATION OF WAR, and John Howard may then simply have taken it upon himself (in breach of Section 24AA of the Crimes Act (Cth) to authorize the murderous invasion, without any constitutional standing to do so.

If we tolerate this kind of abuse of law, then we are selling out our rights, freedoms and security!

Only the Minister of Defense was in any position to advise the Governor-General is a DECLARATION OF WAR ought to have been issued against the sovereign nation Iraq, and the Governor-General then was to make a non political decision as to accept this advise or on consideration what is best for the “general public” to reject the advise and to refuse to publish in the Gazette a DECLARATION OF WAR.

You cannot have to argue that people caught for drug smuggling must face the consequences while at the same time you do not apply the lawbreaking conduct of politicians such as a murderous invasion upon another sovereign nation.
The moment we allow anyone to take the law into their own hands, we loose what democracy stands for.

The Queen may have accepted from Tony Blair to authorize British troops to war, but obviously the then Governor-General Hollingworth did not accept this was appropriate for the Commonwealth of Australia and did not publish a DECLARATION OF WAR for this
Posted by Mr Gerrit H Schorel-Hlavka, Tuesday, 13 September 2005 3:12:51 PM
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