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The Forum > Article Comments > No one Muslim fits all > Comments

No one Muslim fits all : Comments

By Waleed Aly, published 2/9/2005

Waleed Aly argues John Howard's meeting with Muslim leaders ended up pleasing no one.

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You possess the remarkable talent, Boaz, to leave me even more confused as to your position after every post.

I think what puzzles me is that someone of your obvious and undoubted intelligence can write consecutively...

>>"You see, a person is not a Christian because they were baptized, christened, sprayed with holy water,"<<

and

>>"those who had crucified Jesus asked Peter "What shall we do now ?"
...Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you"

without seeing the inherent confusion that such a juxtaposition creates.

I can quite see your point - that christian-ness comes from within - but if that is the case, why can't you judge muslim-ness on the same basis?

But if in fact you side with Paul, and see christian-ness as a product of repentance and baptism, doesn't this invalidate your previous sentence?

By the same token, when you casually throw off a line about the Turkish application to join the EU, it appears to be without any kind of analysis or processing on your part.

You then confuse matters further by claiming "the memory in the Euro side may not have faded quite as much as Turkey has changed, and the 'sound bite' you described would suggest as much"

Boaz, I hate to remind you, but it was *your* sound bite, not mine. *I* didn't describe it, *you* did. It was I who questioned its provenance, suggesting that it was a poor basis upon which to translate a transient opinion into some form of categorical "fact". To add later that "it might reflect just the one view of the single person interviewed, but it didn't come across that way" is sloppy thinking.

And that, by the way, is what I found "unconvincing" - I have no brief to judge whether others find your arguments compelling. But when the internal logic is so flawed, I feel justified in pointing it out.
Posted by Pericles, Monday, 10 October 2005 12:58:19 PM
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PERICLES .. Well done :) I was half anticipating a response like that, and I am glad you are noticing that point about 'not a christian due to Baptism, but then... "Repent and be baptized".. exactly.

Firstly, you are quite right in saying that 'Christian-ness' comes from within, which is indeed my point.

Let me clarify.

1/ Repent.... turn from all known sin, embrace Christ as Lord and Savior
2/ Be baptized, as the outward symbol of the inner transaction, and also as a sign and early step of obedience to one's new King. "Go into all the world, make disciples, baptizing them... teaching them... to obey all I have commanded you" etc.. Math 28.19

Part of discipleship .. is baptism. Like the left and right leg of a pair of trousers.

On "why can't I regard Muslims in the same way.. inner quality"

In a cultural and human sense, yes, one can view Muslims as having varying degrees of inner committment to Allah. But in the "Islamic" sense, its not about a heart "transaction" which we describe in Christian circles as 'Salvation'. Its just on going obedience to Allah which begins from birth, that is why people can be 'born' Muslims, and its correct doctrinally for them, but such is not the case in regard to the Gospel of Christ. A person is 'saved' when they turn, and repent and embrace Christ as Savior.

Knowing your astute mind, I will this time anticipate the obvious question "What about young people, too young to 'hear/repent' etc, and what about 'heathen who have no chance to hear'.... yes, its a difficult question to satisfactorily answer.

My position is tending towards an appreciation of Romans 1, (you will need to read it with this question in mind) and a conviction of the ultimate justice and foresight of the Almighty.

I honestly cannot answer this dilemna, and I'm left with Romans 1, Romans Ch 9-11 and this "Shall not the judge of all the earth do right" Gen 18.25 in a similar context actually.
Posted by BOAZ_David, Monday, 10 October 2005 7:12:20 PM
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You astound me, Boaz, honest you do. Did you say this with a straight face, I wonder, or are you being deliberately provoking with your artlessness?

>>"On "why can't I regard Muslims in the same way.. inner quality"

In a cultural and human sense, yes, one can view Muslims as having varying degrees of inner committment to Allah. But in the "Islamic" sense, its not about a heart "transaction" which we describe in Christian circles as 'Salvation'. Its just on going obedience to Allah which begins from birth, that is why people can be 'born' Muslims, and its correct doctrinally for them, but such is not the case in regard to the Gospel of Christ. A person is 'saved' when they turn, and repent and embrace Christ as Savior."<<

You insist on saying that there is only one way that a person can be good, and that is to be a baptised christian. Plus of course the "inner goodness" that conveniently rules out all those Nazis...

Wow. No wonder you see evil in the rustle of a veil, or the swish of a burnous. You would have seen evil in Gandhi. Evil in Ataturk. Evil in Anne Frank. Evil on every street corner.

How on earth do you make it through the day?
Posted by Pericles, Tuesday, 11 October 2005 5:40:58 PM
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Pericles
You are not understanding. You say I see 'evil' in everything. What I see is a world where there are those 'In Christ' and those outside.

On Muslims/Islam/Heart transaction, -you are misconstruing my attempt to point out a fundamental difference in faiths, with the attribution of 'evil' towards Muslims, Ghandi and even Ann Frank because of this.

The point I'm making about Islam, is that it does not teach that a 'faith transaction' is what saves a person. Indeed it does emphasise the need to obey God from the heart, but not in a saving sense. It teaches earthly obedience to a prophet and a religious state and in the end, maybe you will, maybe you wont....be accepted by Allah.

You can be 'born' a Muslim, you can only be 'born again' to become a Christian. The gospel of Christ teaches exactly that.
I think you are reading more into what I'm saying than is there, or.. perhaps I'm just making it clear enough. I'll continue trying.

In referring to knowing Christ, it can only be a matter of the heart, a relationship of on going repentance and faith. People can follow Christs teaching, yet not be 'In Christ'

The point I'm making, is that we are either in Christ, or outside of Him. For those outside of Christ, the scriptural position is that of God as Shepherd, searching and seeking the lost. I don't know why you spin it as me viewing people as 'evil'. As far as I'm concerned we are all sinners and in need of saving Grace.

I get through the day quite well thanx knowing my sins are forgiven.
Perhaps my literary skills are yet in need of some further sanctification.

You regular attention to my apparent lack of logic is noted, and appreciated, I can only benefit from this.
Posted by BOAZ_David, Wednesday, 12 October 2005 7:32:37 AM
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Boaz, it isn't so much the logic, it's the consistency.

You regularly excuse the evil actions of people who call themselves christians by pointing out that they are not really christians at all, since being a true christian comes from behavioural factors, as well as simply wearing the label. This is of course very convenient as a construct, since it automatically excludes anyone who misbehaves from qualifying under your definition of christian.

My concern is that you do not apply the same structure to Muslims. You don't seem to accept that there is a difference between terrorists who describe themselves as Muslim, and folk who bear the same religious label, but wouldn't harm a fly.

In pursuing this line, you are aiding and abetting the rabble-rouser contingent, who have objectives far more sinister and damaging to society than yours. While you may occasionally become tedious in your one-eyed evangelism, it is relatively harmless stuff. You do however provide intellectual comfort to those who have a deep and visceral hatred of any form of difference, and who every so often show their intolerance on these message boards.

This is why I suggested you track down Mosley's "My Life", where you can see a graphic illustration of a highly intelligent person who is so completely wrapped up in his notions of right and wrong, he fails to see the impact on people less smart than himself.
Posted by Pericles, Thursday, 13 October 2005 11:01:13 AM
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Pericles..... glad you mentioned the point...

<<You regularly excuse the evil actions of people who call themselves christians by pointing out that they are not really christians at all>>

because if that is the message I've communicated then I definitely deserve a rebuke of the strongest kind. I've certainly not intended to 'excuse' acts of brutality, in fact I condemn them along with all fair minded people. I've made reference to Srebrenica, but not to 'excuse' the Serbs, as much as to illustrate exactly what was done by Muslims to Jews at Badr.

If I've labored the 'they are not true Christians'... it is not to justify or excuse, but to explain. In fairness also, I have to point to Cromwell as one of those who was clearly a committed Christian, but who, at some point, seems to have allowed his power and historical circumstances to push him in a rather merciless direction. Though, from what I've read, he did give opposing forces in Ireland the opportunity to surrender and have peace prior to attack.

This does not lessen his deeds, specially when one considers that some of those at the rough end of the military stick he wielded were there because of stupid ego based decisions by Nobles in charge of them.

Regarding 'aiding and abetting/giving comfort to' those who are far more dangerous than myself. I think you have a point there, but this seems unavoidable to me, and in the long run it will always boil down to how clearly we articulate and promote a true understanding of Scripture.

But no matter how well we put our case, we will not be able to stop a Hitler from using the 'cleansing of the temple' incident to 'prove' that a) All Jews are bad b) we must cleanse our society of them

I must make Mosely my Christmas reading :) But he will be competing with the fact that THIS year, I'll have access to a boat.
Cheers
Posted by BOAZ_David, Thursday, 13 October 2005 11:40:58 AM
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