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The Forum > Article Comments > Freedoms religious and social: an Australian stock-take > Comments

Freedoms religious and social: an Australian stock-take : Comments

By Andrew Cameron, published 10/5/2019

.... social hostilities have a habit of crystallising upward into the policies and laws that order our common life

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What a dreadful person Folau is, compared with the followers of Islam, who merely call for the death of homosexuals, and quite often do kill them. Much kinder than some awful Christian who goes as far as upsetting the Qantas CEO.
Posted by ttbn, Friday, 10 May 2019 8:51:07 AM
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We've always had religious freedom here in Australia!

Nobody has ever been prevented from attending any religious ceremony or celebration inside any building dedicated for that purpose!

Religious freedom has never ever included a right to harangue and harass in the public square! Nor proselytize inside public schools that have fatuously allowed recruiting chaplains free rein over other folk's kids!

And ought to be ended ASAP and replaced with genuine led by example Christian charity and championed genuine social justice! As exampled by the master!i
Alan B.
Posted by Alan B., Friday, 10 May 2019 10:47:16 AM
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What Would be the outcome if a group of activists dressed up in white KKK costumes, were to march up and down in silent protest outside Mr Folau's church every fine Sunday morning carrying placards that read, "Judge ye not lest ye be judged in turn and found seriously wanting"?

And claimed by the silent marchers as peaceful protest conducted as a (boot on the other foot) religious freedom? And no more offensive in turn, than the latest Folau religious rant!

Well?
Alan B.
Posted by Alan B., Friday, 10 May 2019 11:02:07 AM
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Alan B.: Religious freedom has never ever included a right to harangue and harass in the public square!

For consistency your remarks should apply also to Gaia worshippers, particularly those who harangue and harass voters near polling booths to vote for climate change action.
Posted by Raycom, Friday, 10 May 2019 12:51:10 PM
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Perhaps a Real Question should be do any of your "religious" beliefs have any grounding in The Living Divine Reality? And are they based on a fully comprehensive investigation and understanding of the totality of the psycho-psycho-physical structures of the human body mind complex?

Are any of your "religious" beliefs based on first hand direct evidence and/or participation in what you profess to believe. For example did you participate in the life, and teaching demonstration of Saint Jesus of Galilee, or meet Saint Jesus of Galilee up close and personal in a living-breathing-feeling human form?

And what if all of your childish even infantile "religious" beliefs are based on the entirely mythological/legendary nonsense associated with the life and presumed "resurrection" of Saint Jesus of Galilee (who of course was never ever in any sense a Christian)

In the storm-in-a-teacup case of Folau has he or anyone else ever had any direct experience of "sinners" of any persuasion "burning in hell". Or of self-righteous "true believers" going to "heaven" when they die.

Obviously not!

So regardless of the legalities of Folau's case with the Rugby administration his naive "religious" beliefs should quite rightly be lampooned.
Posted by Daffy Duck, Friday, 10 May 2019 1:31:50 PM
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Alan B. "Nobody has ever been prevented from attending any religious ceremony or celebration inside any building dedicated for that purpose!"

A group of three Sunni Moslems have recently been convicted of attempting to burn down a mosque belonging to the Shiite faith.

David.
Posted by VK3AUU, Friday, 10 May 2019 3:22:22 PM
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meanwhile Mr Jocye is comfortable being partners with Ethiad Airlines. The hypocrisy is evident for all the see. Israel Folua agrees with God's Word and is sacked for publishing it on social media while the owner of Ethiad believe in stoning homosexuals and Jocye is happy to be their 'partner'.
Posted by runner, Friday, 10 May 2019 4:01:48 PM
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What about freedom from religion ? Why not just keep religion off the street ? Can't people have faith & pray at home ? Where does it say God asked for all these fancy churches etc. & all these clergy ranks ?
God didn't ask of us to help make the various religions wealthy, he just wants us to be decent to each other.
Posted by individual, Friday, 10 May 2019 6:14:23 PM
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Homosexual/feminist/humanist lobbies are all a death cult and use each other as useful idiots to express their Christophobia.
Posted by runner, Friday, 10 May 2019 8:52:31 PM
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No one like being told they are wrong. Even when they are wrong. On Twitter (not on the rugby field), Folau quoted the bible pointing out several things that are wrong and the consequence that happens from doing them. Homosexuality is among them.

No one wants to be told they are wrong, and homosexual lobbies have fought to make society accept them as they choose to engage themselves. (Homosexual attraction might not be a choice, but the act of sex is). Regardless if homosexuality is actually wrong or not, though all Folau has done is tell them they are wrong. He did not fire them from a job, or stop them from being employed. He did not physically abuse anyone or harm them in any way outside of the discomfort of being told that your choices are wrong. Have we grown so soft that the discomfort of being told that your wrong by someone who has a different philosophy then you is enough to get him fired and create a narrative to question religious freedom as a whole? Or more to the point is this protective stance only there for certain key issues. Homosexuality being one of those unquestioned topics that if criticized without harming another means people should consider forcing all religions out, and lose religious freedoms.

(Continued)
Posted by Not_Now.Soon, Saturday, 11 May 2019 3:55:57 AM
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(Continued)

All that Folau did is say several actions that are wrong. He did not harm anyone, kill anyone, or even cause anyone to lose their job, their home, or their lifestyle. Is Folau's religous perspective enough to get him fired? Apparently so, regardless if that is justified or not. Is Folau's religious perspective enough to end religious freedom? Watch yourselves. Each and every one of you. You are looking down a gun barrel and reading your aim on a hatred against religions that has been culturally cultivated and stroked for a while now. You are grooming yourselves to become monsters in reactionary emotions that are outrageous and uncalled for. Watch yourself so that you do not become the monsters you say you hate and fight against. Watch yourselves so that in your stand against evil you don't "make an example" out of an innocent person or innocent community that is causing you no harm.

The comments here after Folau's statements are on the edge of causing some real harm to any Christian in Australia. Do you really want to do this? To be that kind of monster?
Posted by Not_Now.Soon, Saturday, 11 May 2019 3:56:49 AM
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"Vomitous Al" at it again.

*...Nobody has ever been prevented from attending any religious ceremony or celebration inside any building dedicated for that purpose!...*

He never gives up on "stupid".

Vomitous Als little speck of grey matter, allows him to justify religious freedom evinced on freedom of assembly only.

Knock knock Al. Folau's approach to his Christian belief system, is to actually LIVE it.

runner.

Thank you for that thought, re Eathiad/Quantas.
My reading on this subject informs me, the early activism towards the equality message of the corporate world, was based on a profit motive.
Inside that argument, there is some justification for it.
But disturbingly, profit no longer stands as the sole motive for its ideological attacks on religions and their moral base.

The present stand of the corporate world, is aimed at a dedication towards a philosophy of personal freedom, but who's personal freedom?
It's totally on-board with this.

Dan.
Posted by diver dan, Saturday, 11 May 2019 7:43:44 AM
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I can confirm that some of my posts are robust and derogatory. Some of which lampoon the nutter and their flat earther belief systems, but I don't believe I've descended to personal abuse?

Something we'll leave to all you committed Christians and self-appointed moral judges. A belief in a creator is one thing and something I share as an inescapable conclusion. But nowhere in any belief system, does it allow self-appointed moral judges.

Nor should we ask of others what is or has been impossible for us, i.e., celibacy! Or spending the rest of your life living alone and unloved/Loveless. That's the one sure road to insanity!

Just because the creator made you different, then sent his alleged son, a known homosexual to teach you all just how you should deal with a difference! The last comment should rattle a few cages and the self-appointed self-righteous nutters who call them home?

And if the cap fits!? You'll have a nice day now y'hear.
Alan B.
Posted by Alan B., Saturday, 11 May 2019 11:27:53 AM
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Hi Alan,

Still trying to untangle what you wrote. So you're a believer, but not a Christian ? That's your right, as is your right to express your views, not just on OLO but everywhere, as long as you're not inciting violence against drunkards, adulterers, thieves, etc. Oh, and homosexuals too.

Celibacy ? Why, if homosexuality is ruled out ? Sodomy is not the only outlet for sexual pleasure you know. Is that what you're saying ? And after all (correct me if I'm wrong) the bible doesn't specifically condemn bestiality ?

"Self-appointed" ? Folau is getting his cues from the Bible, which parliamentarians and wedding participants swear on. Even as an atheist, I'm not sure if that is some sort of crime. Nor, in my view, and with the greatest of respect, is suggesting that various categories of people might go to a hell, is any incitement to violence, merely an observation from Folau's analysis of what his book tells him. Which is his right, just as it is mine to assert that there is no such thing or place as hell or heaven either.

After all, he's not exhorting Christians to somehow drive various categories of people towards the gates of hell with pitchforks, is he ? Mind you, if there WAS a hell, and they gave out pitchforks, there are some people I'd happily use them on.

Wow, I didn't know that Jesus was supposed to be homosexual. What was God thinking ? What, because Jesus isn't supposed to have got married ? Neither did God, if you believe in one. Is God homosexual ? And if God is a Sodomite, I'd be a bit wary of getting into heaven for eternity :) Am I allowed to say that ? That's not a hate-crime ?

Cheers,

Joe
Posted by Loudmouth, Saturday, 11 May 2019 12:58:43 PM
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Thank you Loudmouth:

You just saved me the effort....

Dan.
Posted by diver dan, Saturday, 11 May 2019 2:25:43 PM
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If Alan B, in denying that he has ever gone in for personal abuse, means that he has not abused individuals but has sledged, on masse, everyone with opinions he doesn't like, including Christianity, then I agree with him.
Posted by ttbn, Saturday, 11 May 2019 4:28:47 PM
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.

Dear Andrew (the author),

.

Freedom of religion is a noble aspiration. Freedom of conscience, even more so.

Hopefully, the latter will become accessible to the rest of us, once those who have been born again have attained the former.

.
Posted by Banjo Paterson, Saturday, 11 May 2019 9:59:33 PM
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Joe, sodomy has no appeal but quite frankly disgusts me and makes my skin crawl. More especially when practised by consenting heterosexual couples!

However, oral sex is different, more hygienic if not part of any routine that includes anal sex! Even where anal sex is practised as a contraception practice to avoid unwanted pregnancies?

Those I lampoon choose to be offended, by choosing if the cap fits option, which invariably ends such comparisons.

That said, if committed gay couples living together have no other option other than one of them choosing gender reassignment, then they should at least always wear a condom if only to practise basic hygiene, avoid both syphilis, HIV/AIDS, plus several other nasty STD's!

Yes, I do lampoon flat earthers, their religious equivalent and folks frankly further to the right than the Furher. Will continue to do so as politely as my unmitigated rage allows!

Because for a start, this area is a science free zone that clearly puts Mannon before any Christian belief system and a creator.

Would mindlessly condemn a world and future generations out of a greed is good idolatry! And try and dress it up as some sort of Christian philosophy.

Even conflate a situation and target some ethnic minority to force feed a war, to one, send shares in defence industries soaring and or two, be able to declare an emergency that allows the "elected" leader to declare a state of emergency, that then allows him or her to stay in power indefinitely and effectively become a literal dictator?

Even where that kills a full two-thirds of the world's populations be they saints, sinners or the innocent!

Note the massive military build up alongside Iran by US forces!

Finally, have been clinically dead on two occasions and returned after seeing both heaven and hell. Can attest that there is no place in heaven for those self-appointed moral judges who can only ever see the sty in the other eye and never the far larger one in their own eye! IF THE CAP FITS?

Youll have a nice day now y'hear.
Alan B.
Posted by Alan B., Sunday, 12 May 2019 11:29:15 AM
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Many more people would take to the faith of Christianity if so many Christians weren't such hypocritical geed & power mongers !
Posted by individual, Sunday, 12 May 2019 9:35:23 PM
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Andrew,

<<Folau's paraphrase mentions the sexually immoral ("fornicators"), adulterers, homosexuals, thieves, drunkards, idolaters, liars and adds "atheists", with hell awaiting them all. The Folau list is weighted a tad more toward sexual sin than are the originals.>>

That's because Folau is citing from 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 and not 1 Cor 8:9-10 (as you stated).

He told Player's Voice that in a comments' section to another of his Instagram posts, he was asked "a question by somebody about what Godís plan is for gay people. My response to the question is what I believe Godís plan is for all sinners, according to my understanding of my Bible teachings, specifically 1 Corinthians 6:9-10". See: http://www.playersvoice.com.au/israel-folau-im-a-sinner-too/.

<<On the face of it Folau exemplifies an evangelical Christianity that was common in the West for several centuries and regarded only lately by educated Anglo-Australians as a dotty oddity. It is still common in several cultures, such as Folau's native Tonga.>>

Instead, Folau represents an evangelical, Bible-based Christianity that is thriving in Australia and worldwide. The Sydney diocese of the Anglican Church in 2019 is evangelical, as are some Anglican churches in the Melbourne diocese. Baptists, Churches of Christ, Presbyterians, Salvation Army and Pentecostals are evangelicals. There are approx. 100 million Christians in China. Two-thirds of them are in house churches: http://www.christianitytoday.com/edstetzer/2017/june/china-house-churches-and-growth-of-kingdom.html.

And I haven't mentioned evangelical Christian growth in Africa and Americas!

Instead of being a 'dotty oddity', evangelical Christianity thrives worldwide, including in Australia. That's your disparaging, pejorative comment about a brand of Christianity about which you do not approve.

So, evangelical Christianity is <<regarded only lately by educated Anglo-Australians as a dotty oddity>>.

You're playing an out of tune harp! We have or had evangelical scholars in Australia. I think of ancient historian and former Anglican bishop, Dr Paul Barnett; exegetical scholar the late Dr Leon Morris. Overseas in last and this century I think of Drs F F Bruce, W F Albright, Harold Ockenga, Carl F H Henry, Bruce M Metzger, Gleason Archer, William L Craig, Wayne Grudem, Craig Blomberg, Kenneth Kitchen, Gordon D Fee - to mention a few.
Posted by OzSpen, Sunday, 12 May 2019 10:21:31 PM
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'Many more people would take to the faith of Christianity if so many Christians weren't such hypocritical geed & power mongers !'

I doubt it Individual. Jesus told exactly why many don't believe. Simply the Light came into the world and men loved darkness more (John 3:17). Pathetic excuses about other people's hypocrisy really is very lame.
Posted by runner, Sunday, 12 May 2019 10:30:38 PM
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I doubt it Individual.
runner,
In my book that denial of fact makes you as guilty as you can possibly be ! I'm sorry but I simply can not look at it from any other perspective. As the saying goes "Bad things happen when good people do nothing". Not accepting blinding evidence is akin to do nothing.
Posted by individual, Monday, 13 May 2019 7:09:12 AM
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well Individual you show you are willing to live a lie by denying your Creator and potential Saviour. People refusing forgiveness from their sin and corruption and eternal life from Christ because of other people's sin is very irrational.
Posted by runner, Monday, 13 May 2019 4:29:31 PM
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To Individual.

You said:

<<Many more people would take to the faith of Christianity if so many Christians weren't such hypocritical geed & power mongers !>>

Christians aren't perfect, once they become Christian. One thing with this is an attitude of judging that is overwhelming sometimes. I've seen it a few times in the church population, and heard about it more from those who've had bad run ins at one church or another. The attitude to reject and judge harshly against a person in the church that messed up. I've got an issue with this attitude within the church. So I'll try to explain it better for a nonbeliever as well.

At least part of the population of Christianity is those who know their need for Jesus, because of the sins they do. Greed, hypocrisy, and power mongering are only a few of these issues. There is also the drug dealer, the adulterer, the one with anger issues, and so many more that realize that life is out of control and they need help.

You can't get rid of the "bad Christians" because the whole point of Jesus coming to save us is that we were unable to save ourselves. The hope is that for any Christian, as time goes on they become better. They will be able to resend and turn from their sins better instead of going right back into them. However in my opinion the church is for those who know their need for Jesus, more so then those who are already perfect and follow the instructions Jesus taught.

Just something to think about. Agreeing with what Runner said. Bad apples should not be the reason to dismiss everything. Especially if bad apples are the people who God searches to redeem and to save. There are other excuses to reject Christianity's message. But the underlying part is that they reject Jesus, because they can not or don't want to let go of the darkness in their life. They love the darkness more then the light. Everything else is part of an excuse to reject Jesus.
Posted by Not_Now.Soon, Tuesday, 14 May 2019 3:41:50 AM
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People are free to say almost anything under the banner of "Religious Freedom" but if you return the favour they are the first to complain about "Religious Persecution".

If Folau was sincere and didn't cherry-pick items as the uninformed usually do he could have added "heathens and Jews" to his list of the hell-bound but that would have turned it into hate-speech.

In any case the original meaning was not homosexuals but Sodomites. The word Sodomite originally referred to a citizen of the mythical city of Sodom and mean't those who practiced illicit sex (ie sex outside marriage or adulterers).
Centuries later, Puritans hijacked the meaning to refer to those who had any form of non-standard sex not intended soley for the purpose of procreation.
Later still, sex-obsessed religious types changed the definition yet again to refer to something more specific.

Jesus himself never said a word about homosexuals but did say something about judging others.
Posted by rache, Friday, 17 May 2019 3:07:01 PM
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Freedom is the greatest gift of all. Just as a living thing will eventually die without water so too a civilisation will decline and die without freedom. The instinctive understanding of this fact is why atheists, agnostics and people of faith can all agree and unite to oppose any attempt to diminish freedom of thought. Without the freedom to express different ideas and to explore them we are diminished as human beings.There are people who dismiss my belief in Jesus and His Church as the delusions of an infantile God botherer It does not upset or phase me and I rejoice in the freedom we enjoy to be able to talk freely on any topic. I would hate to see us lose that precious gift.
Posted by Truth Seeker, Tuesday, 21 May 2019 5:01:41 PM
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