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The Forum > Article Comments > Season’s greetings Tuvalu, and thank you Mr Kelly > Comments

Season’s greetings Tuvalu, and thank you Mr Kelly : Comments

By Jennifer Marohasy, published 28/12/2018

A recent article at the ABC news website correctly explained that in the four decades to 2014, Tuvalu has actually grown by 73 hectares.

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Dear Loudmouth,

You rambled;

“But it's a bit confounding for Greenhouse-Effect supporters to find that atolls may be actually growing out of the sea - that sea-levels there may be declining.”

Lol. No the confusion seems to lie elsewhere my friend.

The article Jennifer M quotes doesn't say that sea levels are declining but rather;

“The data shows that islands in Tuvalu have been subject to rates of sea level change approximately twice the global average over the past four decades.”

It appears that sand accretion is responsible for increasing land areas on the larger islands while the smaller seem to be eroding and some disappearing altogether.
Posted by SteeleRedux, Sunday, 30 December 2018 3:52:41 PM
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Hi Steele,

Yes, sea-levels either stay the same, rise or decline. My point was that, if land areas around Pacific atolls are expanding, it may well mean that - relatively speaking - sea-levels are not rising but declining. Shrinking. Getting less. Whatev.

Of course, there are multitudes of factors to take into account. Along the southern coast of Australia, The Australian tectonic plate is slightly rising as the plate tilts under Indonesia and PNG - ergo, earthquakes, volcanoes, etc.) - so along The Australian north coast, sea-levels would seem to be rising as the plate dips below the Pacific plate, while along our beautiful SA coast-line, e.g. the Nullarbor, the land is rising out of the sea, maybe an inch every century - i.e. the sea-level seems to be declining. Whether it is or not may have nothing to do with global warming or greenhouse effect. But it may - how to separate out all the factors at work ?

Similarly, around Sydney Harbour, maybe there is still some eustatic rebound from the last Ice Age in the Blue Mountains and across the SE corner of Australia ? So sea-levels may not SEEM to change along those old harbour stone walls ?

But yes, maybe even at my great age, I know much less about all this than I would like to think ? Thanks for attempting, vainly (given my congenital defects), to put me right :)

Cheers,

Joe
Posted by Loudmouth, Sunday, 30 December 2018 7:11:05 PM
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Dear Loudmouth,

No, the fact some of the islands are expanding horizontally doesn't mean sea levels are declining relatively or otherwise.

There are sea level gauges on one of the largest islands. Data from the 70s confirms the satellite data of quite dramatic increases in sea levels in that part of the Pacific.

“Sea level has been measured nearly continuously at Funafuti atoll since November 1977. Monthly water level data is provided by the Permanent Service for Mean Sea Level (PSMSL) http://www.psmsl.org/. The monthly record is comprised of observations made at two at locations within Funafuti lagoon.”

So unless you are going to contend that the gauges are sinking while the rest of the island is rising and the satellite measurements are totally incorrect you are going to have to accept that the sea level around these islands are indeed rising.

Further by using the assumption that they were falling to attempt to debunk global warming are you now able to bring yourself to acknowledge those rises support the science of global warming, or is that something you are incapable of given your politics?
Posted by SteeleRedux, Sunday, 30 December 2018 11:16:30 PM
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Steele, you do me wrong. I wasn't saying that sea-levels generally were falling, but merely how complex the whole schemozzle is, that yes, there may be sea-level rise, but other natural processes may be at work to counter that in the case of Tuvalu atolls. And that all manner of tectonic etc. forces may be at work to either reinforce or counter what seems to be changes in sea-level. That sea-level rise or fall may not be a very reliable measure in itself, unless, somewhere (and therefore eventually everywhere) there is massive and undeniable sea-level rise.

For instance, the Bangla Desh tectonic plate is tilting down in the east, i.. Bangla Desh itself, while it is rising in the West (upstream on the Ganges). So the perception is that sea-levels are rising along the Bangla coast.

Another example for unwary observers: the Nile delta is becoming more inundated by the Mediterranean - as the silt which used to be carried down to help maintain the delta is now trapped by the Aswan Dam up-stream. So, again, the perception of sea-level rise.

My bet is that along Scandinavian coast-lines, there is the perception of sea-level fall/decline/drop/getting less of, as the land surfaces slowly rebound after the Ice Age.

God, it's all so complicated :(

Cheers,

Joe
Posted by Loudmouth, Monday, 31 December 2018 8:30:21 AM
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I recall the late great John Daly saying back in the early 1990s that it was absurd to think the coral islands would fall below sea level since they always accumulate enough debris to maintain their height relative to the sea level.

Does anyone recall the story of the iconic tree in the Maldives that was torn down because, due to its fame, pictures from a century ago showed that it had remained the same distance from the shore. European scientists thought it best that such heretical evidence be remove.

Whatever the reasons, the vast majority of these islands aren't and won't sink. Their claims for compensation and assistance are mere rent-seeking. I think even they know that.

As to Ms Marohasy's discussion about the fall of Turnbull, it just shows that yet another PM was struck down by climate fetishism. In the end it comes down to the inability of politicians to deliver unpalatable news. Across the populace, we want three things - cheap power, reliable power and green power. But we can only have, at most, two of those things. No politician is prepared to break the bad news and so they keep searching for the way to resolve the irresolvable. And crash and burn as a result. Its as much the fault of an electorate which is unwilling to hear bad news as it is politicians who are unwilling to come clean.
Posted by mhaze, Monday, 31 December 2018 3:39:18 PM
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Ponder this:

"After shutdown [of the Oak Ridge MSR reactor, in the late 1960s] , the salt was believed to be in long-term safe storage. At low temperatures, radiolysis can free fluorine from the salt. As a countermeasure, the salt was annually reheated to about 150 °C until 1989. But beginning in the mid-1980s, there was concern that radioactivity was migrating through the system. Sampling in 1994 revealed concentrations of uranium that created a potential for a nuclear criticality accident, as well as a potentially dangerous build-up of fluorine gas — the environment above the solidified salt was approximately one atmosphere of fluorine. The ensuing decontamination and decommissioning project was called "the most technically challenging" activity assigned to Bechtel Jacobs under its environmental management contract with the U.S. Department of Energy's Oak Ridge Operations organization. In 2003, the MSRE cleanup project was estimated at about $130 million, with decommissioning expected to be completed in 2009. Removal of uranium from the salt was finally complete in March 2008, however still leaving the salt with the fission products in the tanks."

Walk away safe?....more like run away safe.

There is no such thing as a thorium reactor currently anywhere in the world. The Indians have been work on the science for a decade with no advances. The Chinese also. They say they MIGHT have a demonstration model up by 2025 and a commercial one by 2035, if, IF IF they can overcome the myriad problems they so far encountered.

Newton spent most of his life trying to work out how to turn base metals int gold. This is in the same vein.
Posted by mhaze, Monday, 31 December 2018 3:48:23 PM
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