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The Forum > Article Comments > Israel at seventy: time to celebrate and time to lament > Comments

Israel at seventy: time to celebrate and time to lament : Comments

By Alon Ben-Meir, published 17/5/2018

The country is consumed by internal conflict and beleaguered by a dysfunctional political system, while its citizens live with a heightened sense of insecurity.

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Thank you Alon - nice observations.

One correction though:

Despite all hiccups, Israel is still significantly more democratic than Australia.

You may (rightly so) complain about Israel's demography, but you cannot claim that Israel's government fails to fulfil the desires of its citizens.
You may (rightly so) complain about the concepts of democracy, including "one man one vote" where the system can be deliberately rorted and defeated through the womb.
What you may not, is to claim that because Israel fails to follow the path which you (and I) believe it should, makes it any less democratic.

When Israel was created, it was declared to be a Jewish state - but never was there any agreement regarding what "Jewish" means!

The tragedy is that those who seriously identify as Jewish, cannot give up the occupation - in fact they cannot rest until the Jerusalem temple is restored and animal-sacrifices there resume. This is NOT what the founders of Israel had in mind: they never believed or followed the Jewish bible and the commandments therein, yet they cynically used it for diplomatic gains - and now reap the bitter results. Never in their worst dreams had they imagined that the seriously-Jewish would one day outnumber them and take over their creation.
Posted by Yuyutsu, Thursday, 17 May 2018 3:30:44 PM
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The Jewish, Arab conflict in Palestine is like a mirror to the world on what happens when you have big ethnic tribal bloodlines, competing for survival off the territorial resources of one land or territory.
There ends up being war and conflict over who’s in control of the land, more so when economic hardship( on the Arab side) is desperate, because the Arabs who cant feed the children they already have, persist in doubling and tripling the number of children they have.

The Jews unfortunately, are in the same situation again, that they were in,in Germany in World War 2, They are involved in a territorial dog fight over the land.
Once again they have a differing ethnic bloodline from their own who wish to take the land they live on off them.
This time though The Jews to a fair degree can defend themselves.

This is why multiculturalism is doomed to failure unless intermarriage takes place on a huge scale. Otherwise huge tribes are formed and sooner or later, whos got control of the country becomes an issue.
We saw it with the Sunni and Shites over control of Iraq and democracy didnt save them, because one tribe wouldnt accept the rule of the other. And the tribe that did have the parliamentary numbers to dominate, was only interested in the welfare of their own tribe and treated the Sunni people badly.
We saw democracy fail in Ukraine after a democratic election, because of the mixed bloodline tribal loyalities, there as well.
We are seeing in Catalonia the nation break up, along ethnic loyalty lines.
The tribes opposing each other over territorial control.

Its everywhere you look. The Rohingya another example.
Its all through history and yet we have all these seemingly unaware people trying to create multi tribal(multicultural) societies.
They are only setting up what we see happening in Isreal and Palestine to happen in all these other countries. Its madness, why cant they see it. The truth is its everywhere you look right across history and being played out all around the world today.
Posted by CHERFUL, Thursday, 17 May 2018 6:08:14 PM
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The "protests" in Gaza were anything but peaceful leading to the death of mostly Hamas activists as the SMH article clearly illustrates:

https://www.smh.com.au/world/middle-east/gaza-deaths-a-win-for-hamas-but-show-palestinian-leadership-failures-20180517-p4zfwd.html

The loss of 60 Palestinian lives along the Israel-Gaza border on Monday was indeed tragic and heartbreaking.Yet these deaths were not the result of anything resembling a peaceful protest, despite claims to the contrary; nor were they the result of either the difficult and worsening humanitarian situation in Gaza, or the opening of the new US embassy in Jerusalem.

Those who say Israel should have found non-lethal means to counter the invasion attempts – and Israeli forces extensively employed tear gas, rubber bullets, warning shots and other riot-control measures before resorting to live fire – frankly cannot offer any plausible way this could have worked, given that large unarmed masses were interspersed with the armed, and many of the armed were concealing their weapons.
Moreover, it now seems likely most of those killed were Hamas activists or militants. Hamas official Salah Bardawil, in an interview with the Palestinian Baladna news outlet, said: “In the last rounds of confrontations, if 62 people were martyred, 50 of the martyrs were Hamas and 12 from the people.”
So 60 Palestinians are dead, but Hamas attained its goal. It garnered international attention to the Palestinian cause and to itself, put itself at the forefront of Palestinian debate, and got Israel condemned internationally. The dead Palestinians are martyrs to Hamas’ continued destructive rule over Gaza.
Posted by Shadow Minister, Friday, 18 May 2018 6:15:04 PM
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This has been the ongoing story of the Israelie-Palestinian conflict.

Israel was constantly attacked by terrorist attacks on school buses in Israel, Arab states
also sending armies to attack them over the last few decades.
Every time it is Israel blamed when they react with increasing force against a non-relenting enemy.

The Arabs are truly ridiculous in their belief that they should be allowed to attack Israel
in any way they see fit, and Israel must do nothing to defend themselves.
And the world has been guilty of buying into this Arab propaganda.
When have the Arabs ever taken responsibility for anything, it is always the victims fault.
In Europe, it is not the fault of the terrorists, but the fault of the victims because they are Islamaphobic. Oh please! Stop the excuses and lies.
Posted by CHERFUL, Friday, 18 May 2018 6:57:55 PM
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I don't know what fake news you guys are listening to, but my news has a quite different narrative.
http://www.republicbroadcastingarchives.org/what-really-happened-with-michael-rivero-may-17-2018-hour-1/

From what I understand the wholesale slaughter of Palestinians has been going on unreported for months.
http://thinkprogress.org/gaza-israel-passover-massacre-420132f01e1c/

I think those people have just finally had an absolute gutful of living in the world's biggest open air prison for generations, and all they want is the right to return to their homeland that was taken from them.
Posted by Armchair Critic, Friday, 18 May 2018 8:45:00 PM
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Nice to see the brave and gallant Israeli Defence force using tanks, gas and snipers against thrown rocks to defend that fence they put up to protect the land they stole and occupied in the first place.

An invasion? Really? A mob of unarmed civilians against one of the best equipped military forces in the world?

It's also to remind the world that they are always the victims and have reluctantly been forced to oppress another population for decades because they are "squatting" on land that Israel has always considered belongs to them and them alone. The plan for Greater Israel has always been their agenda.

Israel seems to have forgotten that it was they who supported Hamas as the replacement for the PLO - but then again, likely knew it would continue to stall the Peace Process. They believe in the Peace Process but never the Peace because as long as the process continues, so does the opportunity to seize and occupy new territory.
Posted by rache, Sunday, 20 May 2018 3:33:14 PM
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rache

How do you know those people were unarmed, Hamas said a lot of the men belonged to Hamas. Hamas has access to arms.
What if you were a soldier standing there, who wants to be alive to get home to his wife and children that night and you have a mob running towards you, quite a few men in long black robes.from what I saw on the news.
Hamas could have had rifles under those robes.

If you dont believe stones can kill, then ask someone to throw a few big rocks at you
maybe you’ll be lucky and it will only take your eye out, as happened to a prison guard in a prison riot a few months ago here, from inmates who had climbed on the roof and were throwing rocks.
The Arabs are flooding into other countries in the millions and yet want the millions of Jewish refugees gone from Palestine.
The Arabs cant run diddlysquat, there’s hardly a successful Arab country anywhere,
its because they fail to progress, because they have had silly imans (dictators)running the show for too dam long.
The imans dont want the people being too smart because they can control them more easily when they keep them dumbed down.
Israel on the other hand is a shining jewel of successful endeavour, the Arabs dug fifteen tunnels in the conflict before this one. Trying to get in. Dont see the Israels wanting to get into Palestine. They dont even have decent hospitals and have to go to Israel or Egypt for treatment.
You would think they would at least be capable of running a decent hospital.
But unless they’ve been trained in Western countries they seem to be incapable of doing so.
Its not that Israel has taken their land, its that they have made such a mess of running their own country and so they want desperately to get into the well run prosperous Israel
Posted by CHERFUL, Sunday, 20 May 2018 11:27:41 PM
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Dear CHERFUL,

You wrote;

"If you dont believe stones can kill, then ask someone to throw a few big rocks at you"

You seem to accept that lethal force can and should be used against stone throwers. There are weekly accounts of illegal Jewish settlers in the West Bank throwing stones at Palestinian farmers trying to work their land. Would you deem it acceptable that these farmers stab the illegal settlers to death in order to protect themselves?
Posted by SteeleRedux, Sunday, 20 May 2018 11:47:01 PM
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Dear SteeleRedux,

«Would you deem it acceptable that these farmers stab the illegal settlers to death in order to protect themselves?»

Sure - while the settlers throw stones, the farmers ought to stab them.

But if they do so at other times, or if they stab women and children in their homes, then they undermine their own cause.

Their terrorist actions have already strengthened the Jewish-nationalist parties in Israel that support the occupation and settlements. Every time the "Palestinians" provoke Jews and Israelis with their terror, another illegal settlement is built, replacing their homes, and the prospects of the end to the Israeli occupation are further diminished, to the dismay of the remaining sane and peaceful Israelis, which used to be a majority, many of whom now leave their country in despair while the Jewish-nationalists remain.

Whatever they are hoping to achieve by their violence - they achieve the opposite.
Posted by Yuyutsu, Monday, 21 May 2018 12:41:52 AM
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Dear yuyutsu,

To paraphrase your good self;

But if they do so at other times, or if they bomb women and children in their homes, then they undermine their own cause.

Their terrorist actions have already strengthened the radical-islamic parties in Palestine that fight the occupation and settlements. Every time the “Jews” provoke Palestinians with their terror, another rocket is fired, and the prospects of the end to the Israeli's living without fear are further diminished, to the dismay of the remaining sane and peaceful Palestinians, which used to be a majority, many of whom would like to leave leave their country in despair while the radical-islamics remain.

Whatever they are hoping to achieve by their violence - they achieve the opposite.
Posted by SteeleRedux, Monday, 21 May 2018 1:03:17 AM
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CHERFUL,

Those tunnels you mention were used to get scarce goods from Egypt due to a blockade Israel has put in place since 2007 and not to "get into Israel".
Items like tinned food, various medical supplies and even crayons have been banned and for a while the only fresh fruit allowable was bananas (conveniently supplied from from a Jewish plantation owner).
Many Palestinian Schools and Hospitals have been destroyed during various attacks.

Millions of Jewish refugees in Palestine? Really? More like tens of thousands of people living on stolen land and in illegal settlements after displacing the original Palestinian occupants.

Palestine is the world's largest open prison and is under constant siege and an indication of the land that has been siezed since 1948 is easily found on Google.

Israel gets about $3billion in annual handouts from the USA as well as around $38billion in military aid. Some of that military hardware is resold onto other countries. They used to supply despots in South American and once helped train South African troops in support of their then-Apartheid policy - hardly representatve of a friendly and peace-loving country.

I'd rather face a rock thrown at me than a hollow point or exploding bullet or the illegal White Phospohorus chemical weapons they are known to have used. Then again, they also have an arsenal of nuclear weapons - beyond the reach of inspectors.

They are also masters of propaganda, carefully trying to control international media and was the main country that "had definite proof of the existence of Iraq's nuclear weapons and WMDs" to help convince the USA to invade.
Posted by rache, Monday, 21 May 2018 2:00:21 AM
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Dear SteeleRedux,

Great paraphrase - so assuming both statements are true, what can we do about it? It just means that the situation is never going to improve, the good people will eventually all leave as the bad people stay!

Some minor corrections though:

1) Israel does not deliberately bomb women and children in their homes.
I agree that the Jewish settlers, along with the Israeli army that is tragically ordered to protect them, make the lives of the native Arabs miserable, yet not in this particular drastic way that you mentioned.

2) While the occupation and settlements have exacerbated the Arab resistance, the Arab resistance to Israel's existence was already there beforehand.

3) Many peaceful local Arabs from the West Bank have left already - specifically the large Christian community that lived in Bethlehem and is now mostly in South America. While those in Gaza are imprisoned, those in the West Bank can leave if they want.
Posted by Yuyutsu, Monday, 21 May 2018 6:55:59 AM
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There are a lot of fallacies being bandied around.

1 That the protesters were trying to move into occupied territory. The area surrounding Gaza was part of the pre-1967 Israel that is world recognised.

2 That the protesters were unarmed and peaceful, I assume that this means that they weren't visibly carrying guns. That they were using slingshots to hurl rocks at potentially lethal speeds seems to have escaped the journalists. Secondly, many murders of Jews is by Arab activists carrying knives, and shots were fired at the Israelis.

3 The protest was about the occupation. Earlier news reports indicated that it was about Al nutbar where the Arab attempt at genocide failed.
Posted by Shadow Minister, Tuesday, 22 May 2018 7:50:32 PM
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And yet, acording to the UN, the land between Gaza and the West Bank is still classified as occupied territory and except for the USA and Australia and some abstentions, the UN condemned Israel for their recent actions and called for an independent investigation.

Of course the demonstration was a stunt but the allegation that Israel was in mortal danger of invasion was as believeable as their claims of their "incontrovertible proof" of Saddam's nuclear weapons and WMDs.
Posted by rache, Friday, 25 May 2018 1:08:36 AM
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Rache,

https://www.worldmapsonline.com/images/academia/countries/asia/academia_israel_political_lg.jpg

You are incorrect. The area recognised as Israel by the UN is the pre-1967 area which includes all the area between Gaza and the west bank. On the map provided above the "occupied" areas are indicated in Green.
Posted by Shadow Minister, Friday, 25 May 2018 8:14:03 AM
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