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The Forum > Article Comments > Should religious protection extend to the marketplace? > Comments

Should religious protection extend to the marketplace? : Comments

By Chris Fotinopoulos, published 18/5/2018

Bigotry is bad business, so why not let the consumer determine who gets away with what in the marketplace.

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Chris has provided us with a trigger warning: “Chris Fotinopoulos is a philosophy teacher and ethicist who taught medical ethics at Monash University and The University of Melbourne”.

Did you know that the baker he mentions who refused to provide homosexuals with a cake because of his religious convictions is now driving a garbage truck to provide for his family after he was broken and forced out of business? He would probably be quite unmoved by this 'philosophying'.
Posted by ttbn, Friday, 18 May 2018 10:29:32 AM
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So, anyone who doesn’t agree with currently popular ideas is a bigot?
So much for freedom of thought let alone freedom of speech.
However, I do agree with your premise that the market place should sort out these issues.
I can never understand why anyone would want to force a reluctant baker, florist, photographer etc to provide service and goods for a wedding they disagreed with. That’s asking for ill wishing on what is supposed to be a happy day.
In this day and age there are plenty of alternative providers for any number of different types of requests. Let people use those who are happy to provide the service.
Posted by Big Nana, Friday, 18 May 2018 10:31:34 AM
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Here we go again! Another homophobe unable or unwilling to accept peer-reviewed medical science that demonstrates there is a gay gene. Not one but indisputably two that are exclusive to homosexuals and a probable three others. Or that the overwhelming number of the people have spoken and rejected this medieval ignorance! Feel free to discriminate against people of colour, race, gender bias or creed if that's what rocks your boat? But don't expect the protection of the law nor an inherently decent Australian community. Many of who have gay members among family and friends. Anyone is free to withhold service on any flaged grounds. A sign outside a church or school that declares we repect and honour the traditional view of marriage, religious belief and practise, enough to deter the majority of fairminded Aussies, their gay freinds and family! Even so, be prepared for folk who've had gender reassignment surgergy and HR treatment to turn up and completely confound your ignorance personified impramata. Alan B.
Posted by Alan B., Friday, 18 May 2018 10:35:47 AM
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Protection? Who ever asked for any protection? All the baker asks is for the freedom to be left alone.

If one does ask for protection, then they should be willing to pay the price, but "do as I say or I throw you in jail" is extortion, not protection - this is what Mafias and governments do.

In the current day and age when and where we have no prophets to advise which behaviours are religious and which are not, one should be extremely careful and allow ALL behaviours. If you ask government to ban what is most dear to others, then do not be surprised when subsequently what happens to be most dear to you will be banned as well!

What shocks me, is the cruel attempt to force businesses to have signage in English: http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-05-16/what-putting-english-first-means-for-multicultural-australia/9762578
They have no idea where this will lead, including the ensuing violence: sexual discrimination is comparably a petty issue.

Of course, if a business owner does seek government protection that's a different category, also if their only consideration is profit, then market forces will do the job.
Posted by Yuyutsu, Friday, 18 May 2018 1:47:29 PM
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//In this day and age there are plenty of alternative providers for any number of different types of requests. Let people use those who are happy to provide the service.//

Gosh, what a terrific idea. I eagerly await public houses once more affixing notices like this to their doors:

http://d.ibtimes.co.uk/en/full/1462980/no-dogs-no-blacks-no-irish-sign.png?w=356

It's not the blacks or the dogs I mind so much, it's those damn drunken Irish bastards.
Posted by Toni Lavis, Friday, 18 May 2018 2:35:41 PM
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Toni, why not? In this day and age we have swimming pools banning everyone except Muslim women for certain sessions.
We have legal and health services banning everyone who is not aboriginal.
Pregnant women are allowed to reject a male midwife if they feel uncomfortable about having a male nurse caring for them.
Doctors and nurses are allowed to refuse to participate in an abortion if it’s against their religious beliefs.
As I have already said, why force yourself onto a person, place or service where you are not welcome, when it’s easy to find what you want where you are welcome.
Posted by Big Nana, Friday, 18 May 2018 3:00:20 PM
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//Toni, why not?//

I'll tell you why not: as a proud member of the Irish diaspora, we'll raise feckin' hell in a way that only the Irish can, that's why not. Have you all forgotten the Troubles so soon?

So you'd happily ban us from your pubs, would you now? Well, feck yeh then yeh silly convict bitch.

But don't imagine for a second that we don't know what this is really all about - Irish is just code for 'Catholic'. You feckin convict-descended, bone-idle proddies have always had it in for us since we survived the Reformation and came out on top. Since then it's been Irish this and Wog that, and I'll always fight to defend my tribe - tooth and nail, if need be.

Yeah, stirring up bigotry and hatred seems like a really productive step forward. [sarcasm]

Go and read some history, you silly old cow: there is only one way that fanning the flames bigotry ever works out... and it isn't well.
Posted by Toni Lavis, Saturday, 19 May 2018 1:02:42 AM
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So this is the sort of Religious Freedom some people want?

I think business owners should be free to trade with whoever they like.

There are already GPs who will not prescribe birth control measures and Chemists who will not stock birth control products for religious reasons so wedding cakes should be no different.

However, with the recent changes to the legal status of marriage and to avoid possible customer embarrassment the business owner should clearly state their policy outside the shop.

It's been done before with signs like "Whites Only" and "No Irish". South Africa and the American Deep South found them very effective.

It also gives all potential customers an indication of what sort of business they would be dealing with.

If business owners want to take a personally moral stance, they should be proud of it and accept any consequences. To them it's obviously not just about money, and if any of them end up driving a garbage truck at least they will know why.
Posted by rache, Saturday, 19 May 2018 9:53:49 AM
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//It's been done before with signs like "Whites Only" and "No Irish". South Africa and the American Deep South found them very effective.//

A convenient way to identify which businesses should be vandalised, and which should be left alone. I like it.
Posted by Toni Lavis, Saturday, 19 May 2018 11:37:10 AM
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A sign I had in my business establishment, read. Credit will be automatically refused to all patrons unless accompanied by two great-grandparents. And another that read, please don't ask for credit as a refusal often offends. And others in the public latrines We aim to please, you aim too, please. Or stand closer, it's not as long as you think. I'm Quite happy with some signage that says things like, we reserve the right to refuse service. As for the baker of cakes who now runs a garage business. One presumes he collects all the rubbish on his round, including from same-sex couples or married gays? So much for his alleged Christian beliefs and his right to withhold service on alleged religious grounds! He should have had one that read, we diligently seek to serve every customer and enhance their shopping experience, regardless of race, colour gender bias or creed. Or encapsulated. Do unto all others as you would be done unto, or, inasmuch as you do unto the least amongst you, you do also unto me! Alan B.
Posted by Alan B., Saturday, 19 May 2018 12:33:01 PM
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One is saving the article and representing it here on OLO and elsewhere a soon as the next federal election is called along with a list of all those candidates, who stood for the no case, along with the name of the electorate they are running for! Suggest others do likewise, lest we forget! Alan B.
Posted by Alan B., Saturday, 19 May 2018 12:37:57 PM
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And the usual Sunday service will be held on Mondays instead of Fridays! The community swimming pool will allow nude bathing for Females only on Tuesday nights and males only on Thursday nights. And for the Pastor and myself, any night we choose! Alan B.
Posted by Alan B., Saturday, 19 May 2018 12:44:57 PM
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So Toni, you believe that we shouldn’t allow Muslim women to take over our swimming pools, that women in labour should be forced to accept a male midwife who makes her feel uncomfortable?
Just a few of the many situations where people currently get to chose who they deal with. I presume you are working hard to change all those areas of bigotry.
Posted by Big Nana, Saturday, 19 May 2018 6:07:59 PM
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I certainly don't condone vandalising businesses on the basis of selective or restrictive trade but a while ago read about a cafe that had a sign out front saying "We will continue to pay penalty rates".

Apparently afterward business there had never been better, so there are people out there with a sense of fairness and that's all that matters.

Bakers shouldn't be "forced" to bake cakes for any customer but if there are financial consequences they can't complain on the basis of discrimination.

They shouldn't be allowed to hide their prejudice from the public as if under a white hood as some had eagerly done a couple of generations ago (and many still do today).
Posted by rache, Sunday, 20 May 2018 1:29:43 AM
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//So Toni... [blah, blah, blah]//

Piss off, hibernophobe. We don't want your type in this country.

//I certainly don't condone vandalising businesses on the basis of selective or restrictive trade//

I do. Anybody around my neck of the woods that puts a 'no Irish' in their window should expect to have a brick hurled through it.

//so there are people out there with a sense of fairness and that's all that matters.//

No, it isn't all that matters. Because there are disgusting bigots like Big Nana out there too, and that also matters.

//but if there are financial consequences they can't complain on the basis of discrimination.//

And if they have to pay for some glazing to a replace a few bricked windows, they shouldn't be whinging about that either. Nobody is forcing them to be dicks.
Posted by Toni Lavis, Sunday, 20 May 2018 7:39:36 AM
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Big Nana, I believe some of my commentary about your mental capability was uncalled for and unintentionally offensive. Which I unconditionally withdraw and apologise for. It seems I have a raw nerve when it comes to gender bias as some of my friends and three family members, chose to be born different! My sainted mother was born different and as hairy legged and strong as any man. Even had a hairy chest. And on the few occasions, we kids sent any quality time with her saw things we weren't supposed to. THAT ASIDE SHE WAS A GREAT MUM WHO SACRIFICED PLENTY FOR US INCLUDING FOOD! When there wasn't enough to go around. So forgive me for getting too emotional and passionately aroused when people through ignorance or recalcitrant intransigence, refuse to look at the overwhelming evidence for natural born sexual aberrations. Sincere apologies for the apparent offence! Alan B.
Posted by Alan B., Sunday, 20 May 2018 10:17:44 AM
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Alan, in your fervour to always dismiss anything I ever say, you always totally miss the point. I have never once advocated that anyone should be discriminated against because of their sexual orientation. Like race, these things are not a matter of choice. And to my knowledge no bakery has ever refused to serve their everyday goods to a gay person.
What I have always said is that people with religious or moral objections to a ceremony that offends them should have the right to not participate in that ceremony. Because that ceremony is a choice, and they have plenty of other options to cater to it.
Just as a woman in labour should have the right to refuse a male midwife.
Or medical staff with religious or moral objections to abortion or euthanasia should have the right to refuse to participate.
As you know, I have multiple aboriginal descendants and I always tell them that if a business treats them with disdain or rudeness, they should take their business elsewhere and spread the word amongst their friends.
As the article states, the free market would quickly settle any issues but the one thing you cannot forcibly change is people’s personal beliefs, nor should we have the right to do so.
And yes, I accept your apology.
Posted by Big Nana, Sunday, 20 May 2018 2:01:22 PM
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And as usual Al, you immediately swim circles in the pond of self pity on this subject.

Your Mother was also smart enough to keep her problems to herself; I bet!

When the homosexual element rub their S* in the faces of the 98% of the normal, expect a reaction!
Posted by diver dan, Monday, 21 May 2018 7:23:48 AM
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yeah we know Alan their is a paedophile gene. Some warmist scientist said so. Talk about delusion.
Posted by runner, Tuesday, 22 May 2018 10:18:46 AM
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There was an interesting discussion recent on The Rubin Report which in part covered unintended consequences (in that instance around minimum wages) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8X9Mc3YMhA4

I think those attacking the premise of the article are missing the part of the issue that's about what happens when the compulsion applies to other areas. Like a lot of topics it all seems good to many when the government sorts out those we disagree with, not so much when it's a government compelling what we disagree with.

The real issue in my view is the impacts when the government intervenes in the market, are the number of bakers, pubs etc in an area limited making it much more difficult for people to vote with their feet? What constraints do we put on people which genuinely stop them from taking their business elsewhere?

R0bert
Posted by R0bert, Tuesday, 22 May 2018 4:17:42 PM
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quite funny how the feminist sisters are now argueing their is no gender. How dumb can unis become.
Posted by runner, Tuesday, 22 May 2018 4:26:21 PM
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<<Bigotry is not smart business. It is bad business. And it is for this reason that the consumer is best placed to send bigoted traders behind the walls of their abodes where they are free to peddle dubious beliefs with like-minded guests.>>

Chris,

Try selling that idea to the corner store or cafe that has a deal with Coca-Cola and will not sell Pepsi.
Posted by OzSpen, Wednesday, 23 May 2018 7:01:53 PM
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