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The Forum > Article Comments > Big talk, big cost, big battery but small result > Comments

Big talk, big cost, big battery but small result : Comments

By Russell Grenning, published 25/1/2018

Tesla products would run even better if Tesla hype could be converted into electricity.

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Its too early to judge the performance of Jamestown Tesla Battery's (J-Bat's) performance after ownly operating a couple of months.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hornsdale_Wind_Farm#Hornsdale_Power_Reserve
Posted by plantagenet, Thursday, 25 January 2018 9:37:03 AM
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These batteries may have a role to play in short term frequency correction but not bulk energy storage. Contrast Hornsdale's 129 Mwh of storage with 350,000 Mwh for Snowy 2. The Finkel report suggested all of Australia's wind and solar farms should have storage or other backup linked to them.

Whether unsubsidised future batteries can pay their way from frequency support (FCAS), spot trading or other revenues is not clear. They'll never replace gas fired generation but gas gets more expensive every year. Conserve lithium for mobile phones and EVs hopefully cheaper than Teslas.
Posted by Taswegian, Thursday, 25 January 2018 10:03:08 AM
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Pete,

Congratulations for beating Alan B three times in the one day. It wasn't that long ago that you were making cracks about old blokes in their pyjamas.
Posted by ttbn, Thursday, 25 January 2018 10:03:26 AM
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We South Australians, knowing the the socialist gang mismanaging the joint, always knew it was a huge joke. Thousands of houses have already been blacked out and, to add insult to injury, the treasurer is denying this. Stalinism is alive but very unwell here.
Posted by ttbn, Thursday, 25 January 2018 10:10:05 AM
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Russell seems to be unaware that SA has a large amount of gas fired generation, so the claims our battery size is inadequate is rather silly.

"South Australia was relying on Victoria for 31 per cent of its power, 23 per cent of which was provided by hydro-electricity."
IOW SA was taking advantage of Victoria's hydroelectricity to get cheaper power than we would have if it had all been generated in SA. There's nothing wrong with that - it's why we have a grid, and the power very often flows in the other direction.
Posted by Aidan, Thursday, 25 January 2018 10:10:13 AM
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Thankyou ttbn

For your accolade at "Thursday, 25 January 2018 10:03:26 AM".

Worship moi (and Keith Suter the Great [1]) as is your want.

[1] Sir Keith the Great http://www.onlineopinion.com.au/author.asp?id=185

I accept and was already out of my jarmies (and mind?).

Cheers

Pete
Posted by plantagenet, Thursday, 25 January 2018 10:58:34 AM
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The solution has always been thorium. But resisted by the implacably opposed, seventh enemy within!

Why? Because it's not labor party policy!

Why not? Because it's not labor party policy!

Yes you've told me that a thousand times before, but never ever, why not?

Because Dumbo, it's not labor party policy!

Then we wonder why we have an energy crisis?

Refusal to act when decisive action is called for is the reason we're welded to coal and opposed to, for peaceful purpose, nuclear energy!
Alan B.
Posted by Alan B., Thursday, 25 January 2018 12:57:41 PM
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Well spotted Alan B. SA has about 25% of the world's uranium that comes with a lot of thorium that currently goes to tailings or backfill. SA should be powering the rest of Australia and if need be burying the reduced waste up past Woomera. Fiddling about with batteries is almost comical. Like those monks on a rocky island in the Irish Sea who starved because they wouldn't eat fish.
Posted by Taswegian, Thursday, 25 January 2018 1:11:42 PM
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Taswegian, tell us more about those monks living in the Irish Sea who starved because they would not eat fish? This could give us many insights into a failures to solve modern problems.
Posted by JBowyer, Thursday, 25 January 2018 7:48:27 PM
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JB a TV commentator said the monks of Skellig Michael shunned fish but other media say they ate fish
http://oldmooresalmanac.com/the-skellig-islands-the-home-of-very-lonely-monks/
There are other examples of religion preventing taking the necessary steps for self preservation. For example the US cult the Shakers took a vow of celibacy then wondered why no young people were adding to their dwindling ranks. Same goes for modern energy. The green religion says it has to be wind, solar and batteries or nothing.
Posted by Taswegian, Friday, 26 January 2018 8:02:49 AM
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Let's face it....South Australians, by way of apathy and phlegmatic behaviour have turned monetary waste into an art form.

The number of industrious South Australians that have left the state over the last 40 years is mind boggling, and I would even go as far to say that Queensland's surge forward after the '88Expo way down to disenchanted South Australians
The choice was leave or get a lobotomy so as to endure.

It's capacity for gross mismanagement started with Labour's Bannon and on to this very day.
They want change, but don't want to change anything. That's got to tell you there's something very very wrong
Posted by Special Delivery, Friday, 26 January 2018 9:28:54 AM
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It's not ordinary South Australians at fault here but the seventh enemy within. These are the money wasting folk at the helm, making all our common decisions while pretending to care as they sell us and our best possible future down the river of no return!

Ably assisted by a power junkie lunatic fringe,i.e., the gormless green movement! Unable or unwilling to understand that nuclear energy, is both our cheapest carbon free energy and is cheaper, safer and cleaner than coal and certainly, much, much cheaper than any of their preferred and horrendously expensive renewables!

All while knowingly and deliberately denying thousands the only cure left them. Nuclear medicine, namely miracle medicine, bismuth 213! If it were their kid with hodgkin's or brain cancer, they'd be instant convert, believe me!
Alan B.
Posted by Alan B., Friday, 26 January 2018 10:09:18 AM
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In case some of you missed this; in the UK a study was made to see
how much battery storage would be need for the UK grid using real
world data.
Turned out 14,000 batteries the size of Sth Aus's battery.
Cost 850 billion pounds would be needed.

I was not surprised by those figures and anyone with some electrical
knowledge would see it straight away.
The problem is we need a parliament of electricians not lawyers!
Posted by Bazz, Monday, 29 January 2018 10:04:06 PM
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SA has a UPS, good for a typical 4 minutes (for such devices).
Posted by McCackie, Tuesday, 30 January 2018 10:33:57 AM
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Here is the link to the article I mentioned above,

http://tinyurl.com/y8aa6qhq

The result was a shocker
13,954 of these 129 MWh facilities costing 405 billion would have been required to back up UK wind and solar in 2016.
Posted by Bazz, Tuesday, 30 January 2018 12:51:15 PM
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Whoops my first post was probably A$s not pounds.
If you halved the cost it would be up towards A$400 billion if used here.

As far as electric cars are concerned, subsidies are not needed.
What is needed is control of the price.
The Nissan Leaf for example the largest number of electric car sold
in the world, sells in the US for around $US30,000 before tax subsidy
and in the UK for about 30K pounds but here it is sold for A$57,500 !
That is about $20,000 excess markup.
Their other cars do not get marked up like that.
The Leaf is the largest selling car in Norway and having driven one
here it was a marvelous machine to drive, quiet, responsive comfortable
and I would have bought it except for the price.
So do not paint all EVs as Teslas, the Leaf has a good reputation
if you read the owner forums.
Posted by Bazz, Tuesday, 30 January 2018 1:09:12 PM
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Buy a Leaf (second hand?)from UK and pay no fuel excise here.
Posted by Luciferase, Tuesday, 30 January 2018 2:45:48 PM
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Even without the markup Bazz, US$30,000 is still over A$40,000. There are a large number of fine well made new cars on our market that will do everything a Leaf will do, only better & easier for well under half that price.

The only possible reason for buying a Leaf is virtue signalling, which means only idiots would consider them.

I bought a low mileage 2002 Mazda 323 hatch specifically to carry my remote control planes to the local model flying club, & to drive around the paddocks, for the princely sum of $3500. I have been happily surprised at what a useful, pleasant, economical thing it is, & it's 700 kilometre range on a tank of fuel.

My lady likes it so much she often pinches it for the 400 kilometre round trip to mind our latest grand daughter, leaving me her new Peugeot.

The fact that I could have a succession of a dozen of these, [at least 24 years transport], with their very low insurance, virtually no depreciation & no battery replacement costs in place of one leaf makes a total mockery of a Leaf being economically viable transport, at any possible price.

Only political stupidity will get us into electric cars, without some huge breakthrough in the technology.
Posted by Hasbeen, Tuesday, 30 January 2018 2:53:52 PM
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Well Hasbeen, it is horses for courses. As I have mention here previously
a friend has a Mitsubishi ieMev which he drives to work each day and
for weekend running around. His work commute cost is $1-50 a week.
Also zero maintenance costs.
He has another car he uses for long trips to the Snow and to country
radio dos. His wife uses that car for her short work traveling.

Thats not to say that anything you said is incorrect but they are very
practical vehicles and the very popular take up that is occurring
in other countries shows that.
Kia, Mazda and another are rumored to introduce their cars later this year.
That "might" fix the price problem.
Posted by Bazz, Tuesday, 30 January 2018 6:12:24 PM
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Can't agree Bazz. Without huge subsidies the electric things are ridiculously expensive to buy. As I mentioned I go shopping in a 16 year old car, which cost pennies, & in 20,000 has cost just 11 litres of oil to maintain. If it was electric it would be on it's 3Rd set of $7000 batteries.

My pleasure car is 38 years old. Since I put it back on the road in 1993 after a $5600 restoration it has done 70,000 kilometres & cost about $4000 in maintenance, including 3 sets of tyres, replaced because of age, a little oil & about $9000 of petrol. An electric car would have saved nothing but the petrol, but would be on it's 3Rd set of $7000 batteries. So far my 1980 Triumph is about $12000 in front on running costs, without counting that $1.5 a week.

The average new car uses no oil, so maintenance costs, apart from 4 litres of oil every 15,000 kilometres are for inspection of equipment for safety & dealer profit. Electric cars will require more safety inspection particularly with the dangerous Lipo batteries. I use them in my planes & know how dangerous they are.

On the other side of the coin is that industry provides refuelling points for petroleum cars. Somehow it is expected that government [that is us the tax payer] should provide thousands of refuelling stations for electric cars. Firstly I do not want government too easily able to shut down my access to fuel, & secondly why the hell should I pay for your mates fuelling station?
Posted by Hasbeen, Thursday, 1 February 2018 3:37:26 PM
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Well Hasbeen the government has not paid for any of the few present public chargers.
Shell has announced that they will be installing,
gradually, chargers in every service station worldwide.

I had a conversation just last weekend with my friend about his cars
battery. He has now had the car five years and he is very technically
competent. He has been logging and watching closely the condition and
capacity of the battery and it still has the same capacity as when he
purchased the car.
Re danger of the battery, I have only heard of one fire of an electric
car. It had been in a major accident and had been stored upside down
in a scrap yard.
There may have been other occasions of course but if so I have not heard about them.
Posted by Bazz, Thursday, 1 February 2018 7:37:19 PM
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While SA is going broke and wasting money on paltry back up batteries (4 minutes, what a joke) my daughter came back to NSW (from SA). She releasing herself from hospital in Adelaide because of the (substantiated) fear that the Hospitals are too poor to operate properly.
Posted by McCackie, Saturday, 3 February 2018 9:43:31 AM
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McCrakie, the battery is not intended to be a backup battery.
It is there for smoothing the output of the wind farm where it is
installed, ie for when clouds go over etc.
Part of its capacity, 29 Mw/hr. is reserved for grid stabilisation.

Their backup is a fleet of diesel generators that were used in
Tasmania when the cross Bass Strait UHV cable failed. Hmmm
Posted by Bazz, Saturday, 3 February 2018 12:25:00 PM
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