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The Forum > Article Comments > Heretical thoughts about science and society > Comments

Heretical thoughts about science and society : Comments

By Don Aitkin, published 15/12/2017

'A favorite word of Freeman's about doing science and being creative is the word 'subversive'.'

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There is no question about whether climate is changing or not, the questions about whether man has influenced it or not, has been bypassed. The questions that are providing debate for scientists are what rate is climate is changing:
... using sophistry does not account for changes in the cryosphere (Andes, Arctic Ocean, Siberia, Alaska, European Alps, Himalayas, New Zealand Alps, or Antarctica etc).
... Oceans are warming as displayed by the number of huge storms, Harvey was more costly than Sandy and Katrina combined.
... the current wildfires in California are happening during their winter and could turn out to be the most destructive fires experienced, already placed 4th most severe recorded for California (fire seasons are changing).
... South Eastern US is regularly flooding when there are king tides and no precipitation has occurred.
... Rain bombs happen frequently, where huge amounts of rain fall in short time frames causing severe flooding.
... There has been coral bleaching generally around the Earth.

The above matters have been objectively measured, and are just a few items that display climate change.

Where are the mega Reports of hundreds of pages, written by numerous scientists, and referenced by at times thousands of references, that contrarian scientists have produced?Contrarian blog sites are meaningless in comparison to detailed mega Reports.
Posted by ant, Monday, 18 December 2017 9:09:55 AM
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ant, your assertions are so broad and so vague that it is probably not sensible to respond, but, here's a few:

Changes in cryosphere the Antarctic data show no change of any consequence for fifty years, and if there is change, it is cooling, not warming. (See climate4you website.)

Oceans warming, well they have been for a while, but shouldn't you be using measurements, not frequency of storms (which doesn't help your case anyway)?

The severity of the California wildfires seems to have been aided by many years of drought.

The others are not even sensible, so far as I can see.
Posted by Don Aitkin, Wednesday, 20 December 2017 7:48:28 AM
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Thanks for your reply, Don.

I gave several examples in relation to the cryosphere and have references to what I wrote.
I did go to your site; but, I believe what scientists such as Richard Alley, Eric Rignot, James Hanson, Jason Box et al have written peer reviewed articles, I also visit sites such as NASA and NOAA. Glaciers in the Pine Island area of West Antarctica are quite unstable, the concern being that grounding lines are changing.
I do not use one reference only to form my opinion.

The Totten glacier of East Antarctica is not as stable as once thought:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/energy-environment/wp/2016/12/16/warm-ocean-water-is-slamming-into-and-melting-the-biggest-glacier-in-east-antarctica/?utm_term=.8a4da279c42

There is a hyperlink to the science in the article.
Hyperlinks take you to the science described in article.

Don, the drought in California broke quite spectacularly, there were news films about the possibility of very major dam bursting (Oroville Dam).

http://www.vox.com/science-and-health/2017/2/13/14598042/oroville-dam-flood-evacuation

Since then rainfall has once again been very low.

Attribution is a fairly new area being researched by climate scientists.

If you can provide a mega Report of hundreds of pages, written by numerous scientists and underscored by thousands of references by contrarian scientists; then, I might believe you have a point. I have a number of such references written by scientists using peer reviewed research.

You say "The others are not even sensible, so far as I can see."

What others,can you provide information that scuttles them? If you are not able to do so so it is a meaningless comment.

Here is an interesting NOAA article for you to mull over.

http://www.climate.gov/news-features/blogs/beyond-data/alaskan-north-slope-climate-change-just-outran-one-our-tools-measure
Posted by ant, Wednesday, 20 December 2017 11:50:44 AM
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Don you stated my assertions are so broad, and vague.
If you have been following what has been happening with the climate; then, you would understand immediately my cryosphere comments.

An example of a mega Report:

http://science2017.globalchange.gov

Quote from Executive Summary which encapsulates much of what I wrote previously:

"In addition to warming, many other aspects of global climate are changing, primarily in response to human activities. Thousands of studies conducted by researchers around the world have documented changes in surface, atmospheric, and oceanic temperatures; melting glaciers; diminishing snow cover; shrinking sea ice; rising sea levels; ocean acidification; and increasing atmospheric water vapor."

There are a number of articles about how Inuit culture is changing due to climate change:

http://insideclimatenews.org/news/30112017/alaska-global-warming-archaeology-permafrost-history-artifacts-sea-ice-hunting-whaling-traditions?utm_source=InsideClimate+News&utm_campaign=b507e160f8-Weekly+Newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_29c928ffb5-b507e160f8-327850601

Due to permafrost thawing archeologists were able to work on an old Inuit home.
The body of a young girl buried hundreds of years ago was found when part of a Bluff eroded due to permafrost thawing.

It gets a bit hard for contrarians when disciplines not associated with climate science, provide concilience.
Posted by ant, Wednesday, 20 December 2017 4:24:04 PM
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ant, you still continue to make broad statements that you say are supported by the sites you go to. I suggested that you look at the Antarctic temperature graph in climate4you, and you wave it away. Why? It is from an official source all the data on this website are from official sources, not articles that you read and liked and it shows that the Antarctic has been stable for fifty years, and more recently is cooling. But that doesn't accord with you view of things, so you dismiss it.

If you want to argue with what I've written, you need to use data, not assertions.
Posted by Don Aitkin, Saturday, 23 December 2017 11:54:41 AM
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Ant, I'll make it really easy. Humlum's latest report is out (for November). It still shows cooling in the Antarctic, and the data are HadCRUT4. That's good stuff, Ant. Hint: pages 25-27. Yes, you will see that Arctic temperatures have risen a little, but most of the ice in that region, Greenland excepted, is sea ice. About 90 per cent of the land ice in the world is in Antarctica.

Go on, have a look at it... (climate4you) ... and while you are there, study all the rest of the official data. Do you really think they support your point of view?
Posted by Don Aitkin, Saturday, 23 December 2017 12:05:43 PM
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