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The Forum > Article Comments > The second person of the Trinity: the Son > Comments

The second person of the Trinity: the Son : Comments

By Peter Sellick, published 11/10/2017

If a kindly Father God was looking down from above ready to intervene for his Son he must have turned aside so as not to see.

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We are all the Sons and daughters of the creative force or unified energy field, we euphemistically call the universe.

Where everything is energy!

Can the universe think or create?

Well you and I can and we are an integral part of this universe or unified energy field.

The immutable/first law of science is, energy can neither be created nor destroyed! Merely transformed!

So, had to exist in some form, [dark matter/energy perhaps,] for all time/eternity, before and after creation/manifestation/transformation and projection!?

Could something so massively, enormously, mind bogglingly vast and unimaginable, be transformed/projected, without aforethought or purpose!?
Alan B.
Posted by Alan B., Wednesday, 11 October 2017 9:54:17 AM
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It's not easy .
"If a kindly Father God was looking down from above ready to intervene for his Son he must have turned aside so as not to see..As with the Spirit, there exists the danger of isolating the Son from the other two persons of the Trinity."
Sells , would you like to write on another subject?
Posted by nicknamenick, Wednesday, 11 October 2017 11:14:03 AM
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What a peculiar religion, where the deity sends an emissary to his creation, but feels the need to have him tortured to a gruesome death to appease his own anger.

It utterly baffles me why this religion ever took off.
Posted by JBSH, Wednesday, 11 October 2017 12:38:19 PM
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JBSH
It was 2 soldiers , possibly named Drusus Sextilius Emeritus and Vel Papirius Ferentinus , who did that.
Posted by nicknamenick, Wednesday, 11 October 2017 1:11:10 PM
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//The second person of the Trinity: the Son//

Is the only one that matters.

But none of this 'God made incarnate as man' crap. The reason the good man Jesus of Nazareth matters - the only reason he matters - is because he was a good man.

In fact, I consider him to be one of the finest ethical philosophers that has ever lived. And yes, I do believe he was a real person, and that he suffered death by crucifixion for his 'sins'. But I don't believe he got up and walked three days later.

It isn't just the Golden Rule, because he just helped to popularise it rather than invent it. If you read the scriptures carefully, you'll find that he has an awful lot to say about the virtues of forgiveness, and humbleness, and treating all men as your neighbour. It's like Star Trek, two millennia ahead of its time.

Sorry, brief comic interlude. Couldn't resist:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OIVB3DdRgqU

For those who were offended: it's a joke. The humour works because of the absurdity. We all know Jesus wasn't really a racist.

He was a good man. Unfortunately, many people seem to fall into the trap of assuming that everybody else published in the same anthology is just as good.

Which is nonsense on stilts. The Old Testament is horrifically barbaric. The New Testament contains the Gospels, which are the highlight of the whole anthology - and whole lot of unnecessary crap from a nasty little toad by the name of Saul/Paul.

But Jesus of Nazaareth? Top bloke.
Posted by Toni Lavis, Wednesday, 11 October 2017 3:54:23 PM
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The two words Laughing Stock provide a very accurate description of this unmitigated piffle.
Posted by Daffy Duck, Wednesday, 11 October 2017 7:16:50 PM
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Only thing to add is not just the life and death of Jesus. But also the reserection of Jesus.

The life of Jesus is both hope and rebuke. He taught to turn from our sins. He taught forgiveness but repenting was ongoing subject. In His life Jesus healed, forgave and He taught our current condition. That no one is good and all have sinned.

In Jesus's death, yes that can be counted as a failure of religion in Isreal, and as a failure of mankind, but it is also the beginning of why Jesus came. The death and sacrifice of sins. AND the reserection and our newfound hope. Our forgiveness (and need for forgiveness) by God showing a real sacrifice to save us; as well as our hope that Jesus rose and promised eternal life for all who believed in Jesus.

Our redemption and our hope is based on the death and reserection of Jesus. Our lives and our way of living should be based on Jesus's life and His teachings. The faith of a Christian is from the life of Jesus, His death in the cross, and His reserection, and the Holy Spirit that was given after He rose and went to Heaven without death.
Posted by Not_Now.Soon, Thursday, 12 October 2017 3:28:59 AM
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To Toni Lavis. It's good to see you acknowledge the merrit Of Jesus's teachings. But there's one thing to add. Jesus wasn't just a good man, or a top bloke. It's that He's the only one that can be counted as a good man. Everyone else from the past to the future (include you and me) fail the measure to be good, pure and without any sin or wrong in them.

So studying Jesus's lessons; His life; and his parables are worth a great measure for us. Each of us. The Beutitudes, and the lessons of the two famous sermons Jesus gave. The parables that give insight, and also talk about the Kingdom of Heaven. Jesus's answers to the people, including that Jesus is the Son of God. And His consistent message to seek forgiveness and repent of (turn away from) our sins.

If you would like I think talking about Jesus's teaching (any of them or all of them) would be a great discussion to have. Thankyou for providing the acknowledgement of Jesus by His life and his teachings. Because I now feel confidant in inviting this topic forward. :)
Posted by Not_Now.Soon, Thursday, 12 October 2017 3:44:38 AM
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This is a little like going through The Lord of the Rings chapter by chapter, and telling us where Tolkein got it wrong:

"Well, of course, Gandalf didn't really have a beard..."

And YOU know this, Peter, how?
Posted by Jon J, Thursday, 12 October 2017 4:50:43 AM
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.

Dear Peter,

.

You conclude :

« Any healing of the Church, which is now in disarray on all counts, must begin with a return to the conceptions of God produced by the early Church. Crucially, this involves the reintegration of the doctrine of the Trinity and the dispersal of the idolatry that has made the Church a laughing-stock. This alone is the answer to both the theism and the atheism that is, at present, destroying us »
.

That’s a strange diagnosis. Are you sure you haven’t overlooked something there, Peter ?

You can’t have read the same things I have been reading in the newspapers these past few years. A pity … but never mind. It’ll blow over, I guess. Like everything else …

.
Posted by Banjo Paterson, Thursday, 12 October 2017 7:21:12 AM
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Not_Now.Soon,

I think it’s sad that you believe that no-one is good. I think there are a lot of good people in the world. No-one’s perfect, but that doesn’t mean that all are bad. I think you highlight part of what is so immoral about the doctrine of Original Sin.

On a separate note (ignoring for the moment that there is no good reason to believe anything about an Historical Jesus happened as reported in the Bible), Jesus did not sacrifice himself. Jesus basically had a bad weekend and then got to be God at the end of it.

Jesus suffered a temporary inconvenience, but in no meaningful way was his crucifixion a sacrifice.
Posted by AJ Philips, Thursday, 12 October 2017 8:05:27 AM
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PS.

All the years through which I've been a member of this forum, you have ignored my comment. Apart from the “rude” that is, it taught me something of your views.
In a phrase; you are lost.

I'll put this idea to you. If all the Christian churches in the world were simultaneously blown up, Christianity among “true” believers would continue on.
The established church is not needed by God or man!

“Where two or more are gathered together in my name, (notice, no mention of a church establishment), there I am in the midst”

I think you are lost in the woods of theology!
Posted by diver dan, Thursday, 12 October 2017 9:39:25 AM
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As there are 2 billion Christians then the Trinity is increasing in number , maybe a Tri billionity.

" Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are. That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me."

No mention of Ms H Spirit there , but the mega millions have some.
Posted by nicknamenick, Thursday, 12 October 2017 1:01:54 PM
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//That no one is good and all have sinned.//

And to not judge thy neighbour, for it is only he that is without sin who may cast the first stone. Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.

//In Jesus's death, yes that can be counted as a failure of religion in Isreal//

Oh of course... it's all the Jews' fault. Nothing at all to do with Romans, even though crucifixion was a Roman punishment. The Jews would have just stoned him:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MIaORknS1Dk

//Our forgiveness (and need for forgiveness) by God showing a real sacrifice to save us//

Yeah, I consider human sacrifice to be a barbaric practice.

//It's that He's the only one that can be counted as a good man.//

Bollocks. He may have been a fine ethical philosopher, but he was neither the Alpha nor the Omega when it comes to sound ethical philosophy. The Buddha and Laozi were also fine ethical philosophers, and so were Immanuel Kant and Yoda. Jesus was good, but it doesn't follow that he has a monopoly on goodness.

//Everyone else from the past to the future (include you and me) fail the measure to be good, pure and without any sin or wrong in them.//

Original sin? Nah, that's bollocks. Rationally and scientifically, Genesis is a steaming load of crap.

But if we are to consider it just as a story... I don't subscribe to the idea that Adam & Eve were sinful in the first place, and as for the notion that we all inherit that sin...

Cobblers.

//The Beutitudes//

Yes, blessed are the cheesemakers.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RpkWT5voTSE

Oh, and the meek. Which is nice, 'cause they've had a hell of a time.
Posted by Toni Lavis, Thursday, 12 October 2017 4:37:58 PM
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Hello AJ Philips. I hope your doing well.

[I think it’s sad that you believe that no-one is good. I think there are a lot of good people in the world. No-one’s perfect, but that doesn’t mean that all are bad.]

It is a sad reality, but it's not just my belief, it's the truth. No one makes the mark. You can look at it from what you just said. No one is perfect. In that simple but true assessment what we can count as good is either a standard of good enough, or to reach high enough the average. But no one is really good.

However, I believe Jesus is the exception to this observation. He also taught great lessons for us, such as forgiveness against someone else wronging us, because we're in the same light of not being perfect as they are.

I don't see why you would consider the term historical Jesus. He either existed or He didn't. With the bible being the only source to really tell us about who Jesus was, why would we reinvent who he was 2000+ years after He left the make a historical version? I get people not believing the bible is true. I don't understand though not believing the bible but taking pieces out of it to reinvent it to fit them even though they don't believe what's written there. Jesus either existed or he didn't. There is no historical Jesus alternative to the equasion.
Posted by Not_Now.Soon, Thursday, 12 October 2017 5:01:09 PM
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Toni Lavis. Do you have any teachings of Jesus you would like to discuss? You said he was a good man and a fine ethical philosopher. If we can at least agree on this much then we can discuss His lessons. ....or do you mean "Ethical philosopher" in a non complementary kind of way. If that's the case why not just say so.
Posted by Not_Now.Soon, Thursday, 12 October 2017 5:11:42 PM
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Hi Not_Now.Soon. I’m doing well, thank you.

Generally speaking, we shouldn’t proclaim something as the truth unless we can support it with evidence.

<<It is a sad reality, but it's not just my belief, it's the truth. No one makes the mark. You can look at it from what you just said. No one is perfect.>>

Perfection is an unrealistic standard. Even if Christian theology were indeed true, it would still be an unrealistic standard as the Christian God made us to be imperfect beings.

<<In that simple but true assessment what we can count as good is either a standard of good enough, or to reach high enough the average. But no one is really good.>>

There is a difference between good and perfect, though. I think my computer is good, but it’s far from perfect.

<<However, I believe Jesus is the exception to this observation.>>

Yes, Jesus had some good lessons (many of which were not original, though, I might add), However, he also had some not-so-good advice, and he had some terrible advice too. The Sermon on the Mount (often hailed by Christians as evidence of Jesus’ divinity) was a mixed bag like this.

<<I don't see why you would consider the term historical Jesus.>>

Because there is no evidence for a divine Jesus. There is, however, some scant evidence for an historical Jesus.

<<He either existed or He didn't.>>

Correct, and if he did exist, then he was either divine or he wasn’t.

<<With the bible being the only source to really tell us about who Jesus was …>>

That’s the biggest problem, the Bible is the only source for an alleged divine Jesus, and the Bible is utterly unreliable.

<<… why would we reinvent who he was 2000+ years after He left the make a historical version?>>

Because the Bible was never reliable to begin with.
Posted by AJ Philips, Thursday, 12 October 2017 7:19:32 PM
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//It is a sad reality, but it's not just my belief, it's the truth. No one makes the mark. You can look at it from what you just said. No one is perfect.//

Perhaps not, but that doesn't preclude them being good.

//I don't understand though not believing the bible but taking pieces out of it to reinvent it to fit them//

You don't? But that's what Christians do. Everybody reads the Bible selectively.

And they completely ignore non-canonical Gospels like the Infancy Gospel of Thomas, in which a young Jesus kills a child by miraculously cursing him so that his body withers into a corpse, and then later Avada Kedavra's another kid for accidentally bumping into him and blinds the kid's parents when they complain to Mary and Joseph. Although he does turn over a new leaf in the end, and miraculously revokes all his evil-doing.

But maybe not so perfect after all... little wonder that Pope Gelasius I decreed the Gospel heretical.

//even though they don't believe what's written there.//

Disbelief in some bits of the Bible (miracles, mostly) does not preclude belief in others.

//Jesus either existed or he didn't. There is no historical Jesus alternative to the equasion.//

Well if he existed (which seems likely) then he was definitely a historical figure; hence historical Jesus.

//With the bible being the only source to really tell us about who Jesus was//

Nope, there are a whole load of writings about Jesus that got cut from the Bible because early Popes didn't like them, and then there are the writings of historians like Josephus and Tacitus (although the latter don't go into much biographical detail). It is definitely not the only source available.

//or do you mean "Ethical philosopher" in a non complementary kind of way.//

No, if I was being sarcastic I would have used my sarcasm brackets, like this:

Donald Trump is a great president. (sarcasm)
Posted by Toni Lavis, Friday, 13 October 2017 1:49:45 AM
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AJ Philips.

I feel like you just say assertions to put the other person on the defense. Make them explain themselves when you've barely explained yourself, and sometimes even less explained your complaint.

1). What did I say that you count as untrue. (Don't be lazy. Actually say what your critizing.)

2). The sermon on the mount is a mixed bag? Go ahead, explain what you mean?

3). The bible is unreliable? Is this coming from you or from archeological finds that give credit to events within the bible? It's a nice assertion, but please give something to provide how either the bible failed you; it's teachings failed you, or in archeological finds it has been proven wrong. From where I stand it's very reliable.
Posted by Not_Now.Soon, Friday, 13 October 2017 5:53:15 PM
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(Continued)

As for good verse perfect. We live in world where everything is relative. Some even argue there is no good or bad, but that those are speculative concepts that don't really matter or they change from person to person and (same difference as not mattering) can't be forced from one person to another. (To those I'd just say read the newspaper.)

Put it another way. We know bad, we know evil. We know what is wrong. In fact we have a scale of bad to worse to way worse. We can say "at least it's not like ________," when we try to make the best of a sitution or when we defend ourselves or another person's wrong actions.

But no one is actually really good. Some are just a bit on the opposite side of the spectrum where we recoginize that they are above average on a sliding scale of good qualities.

For the moment forget about perfect and focus on just being good. They say that power corrupts. Absolute power corrupts absolutely. I would disagree. If a person who is trustworthy holds power, then that power is trustworthy hands.

The failure in that power corrupts is that people all have weaknesses that enough power can shine a spotlight on our faults. People are already corrupt, but don't have the means to show their anger, their greed, their laziness, or any other fault without consequences. Having power removes that and our faults have oppurtunity to shine.

It's an unfortunate reality. No one is good. Some are kind, very kind. Some are responsible. Some are humble and put others first. These are all good qualities, but they are not alone. It's a sad truth. If I'm wrong please make my day and say how it's untrue. Finding out how this is a misconception would make my day.
_________________________

Toni Lavis. Do you have any teachings of Jesus you would like to discuss
Posted by Not_Now.Soon, Friday, 13 October 2017 5:57:47 PM
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To Alan B.

[Can the universe think or create?

Well you and I can and we are an integral part of this universe or unified energy field.]

What a wonderful observation and thought. There is a whole philosophy about how the universe reacts to our thoughts. But outside of believing in God, I've never heard someone say the universe can think.

Very refreshing thought. Thankyou.
Posted by Not_Now.Soon, Friday, 13 October 2017 6:04:37 PM
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To Peter.

In your article you said:

[The Son in the Trinity denotes the historical experience of both Israel and the Church and is the starting point for all speech about God.]

That's a pretty deep thought. Can you unpack that thought? Or at least go into more detail.
Posted by Not_Now.Soon, Friday, 13 October 2017 6:11:16 PM
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Not_Now.Soon,

I’m doing the best I can with the limited words we’re afforded. Rationing posts is a skill that someone like myself needs to acquire in order to defend one’s ideas on an overwhelmingly conservative forum.

<<I feel like you just say assertions to put the other person on the defense. Make them explain themselves when you've barely explained yourself ...>>

I’m sorry if you feel I put you on the defensive. My goal is, instead, to use what little word count I have to voice my opinion such that others may query me further on the points/claims they’re interested in. If I went into great detail on every point that I made, then I would run out of words and posts, bore people, and probably waste a lot of my own time, too.

<<What did I say that you count as untrue.>>

I don’t think I claimed that anything you had said was “untrue”, only that you had made assertions for which you had not provided any evidence.

<<The sermon on the mount is a mixed bag? Go ahead, explain what you mean?>>

I did. It’s a mixed bag of both good advice and bad advice. If you want to know specifically what I think is bad advice, then I will be happy to expand on that.

<<The bible is unreliable?>>

Yes, it is unreliable evidence for a divine Jesus.

<<Is this coming from you or from archeological finds ..?>>

Both. The archaeological accuracies are not evidence for a divine Jesus any more than the existence of New York is evidence for Spiderman.

<<... please give something to provide how either the bible failed you; it's teachings failed you, or in archeological finds it has been proven wrong.>>

Whether the Bible, or its teachings, failed me (whatever that means) is irrelevant. Incidentally, what archaeological findings are you referring to?

As for your discussion regarding ‘good’ versus ‘perfect’, I can only go back to my ‘computer’ analogy: things (including people) can be good despite not being perfect. I don’t see how you’ve contradicted this.
Posted by AJ Philips, Friday, 13 October 2017 11:05:15 PM
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//Do you have any teachings of Jesus you would like to discuss//

Very well then, if you're to be so insistent that I quote scripture:

The Infancy Gospel of Thomas

Chapter 3
1 The son of Annas the scribe was standing there with Jesus. Taking a branch from a willow tree, he dispersed the waters which Jesus had gathered.
2 When Jesus saw what had happened, he became angry and said to him, "You godless, brainless moron, what did the ponds and waters do to you? Watch this now: you are going to dry up like a tree and you will never produce leaves or roots or fruit."
3 And immediately, this child withered up completely. Then, Jesus departed and returned to Joseph's house.
4 The parents of the one who had been withered up, however, wailed for their young child as they took his remains away. Then, they went to Joseph and accused him, "You are responsible for the child who did this."

Chapter 4
1 Next, he was going through the village again and a running child bumped his shoulder. Becoming bitter, Jesus said to him, "You will not complete your journey."
2 Immediately, he fell down and died.
3 Then, some of the people who had seen what had happened said, "Where has this child come from so that his every word is a completed deed?"
4 And going to Joseph, the parents of the one who had died found fault with him. They said, "Because you have such a child, you are not allowed to live with us in the village, or at least teach him to bless and not curse. For our children are dead!"
Posted by Toni Lavis, Saturday, 14 October 2017 1:11:07 AM
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Chapter 5
1 And taking his child aside, he warned him, saying, "Why are you doing these things? These people are suffering and they hate us and cause trouble for us."
2 Then, Jesus said, "I know that the words I speak are not mine. Nevertheless, I will be silent for your sake, but these people will bear their punishment." And immediately his accusers became blind.

Do you think Jesus' words and deeds in this Gospel represent the actions of a morally 'perfect' individual?

Why do you think early Christians censored this Gospel from the Bible?
Posted by Toni Lavis, Saturday, 14 October 2017 1:11:27 AM
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The Koran which is totally uncorrupt says the Bible is corrupt and gives some info about Jesus . This is helpful like the book of Thomas.

" J. Menard produced a summary of the academic consensus in the mid-1970s which stated that the gospel was probably a very late text written by a Gnostic author, thus having very little relevance to the study of the early development of Christianity."

Superman's first appearance was April 18, 1938.
Spiderman's first appearance was Aug. 1962.
Both wear red and blue , work at the Daily news , were orphans and were bullied by the school quarterback . Didymos Judas Thomas means "twin Judas twin" which may be 3 but was not Muslim, Christian or super-hero.
Posted by nicknamenick, Saturday, 14 October 2017 2:30:27 AM
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NNN

sarcasm is the lowest form of "Wit". That probably explains why your posts are mostly "unfunny" to normal people!

Consequently, you don't come over as intelligent. But you do come across as a nark (v) quite successfully.
Posted by diver dan, Saturday, 14 October 2017 2:32:37 PM
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yeah for so long Harvey Weinstein was a good man among the democrats and Hilary supporters. Watched a few BBC debates from new atheist. What a self righteous sickening mob. With no moral base to draw from its no wonder they deny their own depravity. God certainly has handed them over to their own delusions. Strange how they castigate paedophile priests while having so many sickos among the ranks.
Posted by runner, Saturday, 14 October 2017 3:31:52 PM
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diver dan
I will explain what it means. Toni questioned the gospel of Thomas. So I compared it with incorrect texts such as Koran which mentions Jesus . Spiderman was brought in so I compared him with the original Superman to show that close texts are not authentic. If this stuff is not for you that's OK .
Posted by nicknamenick, Saturday, 14 October 2017 4:11:16 PM
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It is sad Tony Lavis, that you can not be honest with your views of Jesus. You say He is a good guy, but don't believe in His miracles, then quote scripture that is not scripture to show your distaste for him. Quoting hateful miracles from a false gospel. You say He is a good ethical philosophies and when asked to talk about His teaching you quote what you can ridicule. How much better if you could be honest instead of a liar. How much better it would be if you could be upfront instead of a Hippocrate. So instead, I think I will teach. For you, or anyone else who wishes read. Jesus taught of God's love. And I would like to encourage you any anyone else who feels proud in their hatred to God. In spite of it all He still loves you.
Posted by Not_Now.Soon, Sunday, 15 October 2017 4:14:17 AM
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Those of you who do not trust God, believe in God, or seek Him. Take heart, he loves you anyways. In fact He loves you in spite of it. Even if you don't believe, take heart that you will always be welcome in coming to church or to pray, or to read in the bible. A celebration is made because of you if you return to God. Do not think that if you go to church you will be condemned, because of your unbelief, or because of what you've done in your lives. He loves you and reaches out to you. Even if the people are unreceptive to you that is unfortunate, but God is happy to see you there. Be encouraged you are always welcome.

Luke 15:1-7

Now the tax collectors and sinners were all gathering around to hear Jesus. 2 But the Pharisees and the teachers of the law muttered, “This man welcomes sinners and eats with them.”
3 Then Jesus told them this parable: 4 “Suppose one of you has a hundred sheep and loses one of them. Doesn’t he leave the ninety-nine in the open country and go after the lost sheep until he finds it? 5 And when he finds it, he joyfully puts it on his shoulders 6 and goes home. Then he calls his friends and neighbors together and says, ‘Rejoice with me; I have found my lost sheep.’ 7 I tell you that in the same way there will be more rejoicing in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who do not need to repent.

God will celebrate over one sinner more then 99 who remained with Him. Luke 15 continues this point, if you are intreasted Jesus gives two more parables explaining His love for you. :)
Posted by Not_Now.Soon, Sunday, 15 October 2017 4:51:19 AM
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Those of you who are new in your beliefs take heart and be encouraged. God loves you and looks out for you, as much as He does those who have been faithful and Christian their entire lives. In His generousity He will look after you as much as He looks after those who have worked hard to live up to their call of faith.

Mathew 20:1-15

“For the kingdom of heaven is like a landowner who went out early in the morning to hire workers for his vineyard. 2 He agreed to pay them a denarius for the day and sent them into his vineyard.

3 “About nine in the morning he went out and saw others standing in the marketplace doing nothing. 4 He told them, ‘You also go and work in my vineyard, and I will pay you whatever is right.’ 5 So they went.

“He went out again about noon and about three in the afternoon and did the same thing.6 About five in the afternoon he went out and found still others standing around. He asked them, ‘Why have you been standing here all day long doing nothing?’
7 “‘Because no one has hired us,’ they answered.

“He said to them, ‘You also go and work in my vineyard.’
Posted by Not_Now.Soon, Sunday, 15 October 2017 5:18:00 AM
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...(Continued)...

8 “When evening came, the owner of the vineyard said to his foreman, ‘Call the workers and pay them their wages, beginning with the last ones hired and going on to the first.’

9 “The workers who were hired about five in the afternoon came and each received a denarius. 10 So when those came who were hired first, they expected to receive more. But each one of them also received a denarius. 11 When they received it, they began to grumble against the landowner. 12 ‘These who were hired last worked only one hour,’ they said, ‘and you have made them equal to us who have borne the burden of the work and the heat of the day.’

13 “But he answered one of them, ‘I am not being unfair to you, friend. Didn’t you agree to work for a denarius? 14 Take your pay and go. I want to give the one who was hired last the same as I gave you. 15 Don’t I have the right to do what I want with my own money? Or are you envious because I am generous?’
Posted by Not_Now.Soon, Sunday, 15 October 2017 5:21:33 AM
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NNN

I think your explanation borders on a cowards way out.
I give no credibility to your posts until I can clear the air.
I have concluded you are actually "Pseudonymous Alan".

Till I'm convinced otherwise , Zi Ya Ay..:-|
Posted by diver dan, Sunday, 15 October 2017 9:02:52 AM
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Not_Now.Soon looks to be a reincarnation of One-with-God, an OUG who has learned to type.
Posted by Is Mise, Sunday, 15 October 2017 9:12:58 AM
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diver dan
Coward you say. "Coward" from what? What are you on about.
Posted by nicknamenick, Sunday, 15 October 2017 10:18:57 AM
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//It is sad Tony Lavis, that you can not be honest with your views of Jesus.//

Oh, but I have been.

//You say He is a good guy, but don't believe in His miracles, then quote scripture that is not scripture to show your distaste for him.//

Congratulations! You've completely missed the point.

But I suspect that may have deliberate. Apparently thou shalt bear false witness when it suits thee.

But maybe I'm being unfair, and it just went straight over your head. Maybe if it wasn't so devoutly bowed all the time, things wouldn't go over it as easily.

The point - in case you haven't already worked it out and were just being disingenuous - is that people are highly selective when it comes to stories, and that's OK. Here we have a story dated to the 2nd century, about Jesus, written by somebody who for all we know could have been the Apostle Thomas, and I think you'd be far from the only Christian to reject it out of hand simply because you dislike it. Which is fine. If you read to the end then it does have some valuable things to say about repentance, but given how it starts I can entirely understand why Christians would not approve and just ignore that particular story about Jesus. They're being selective, and that's OK.

The extremely large Catholic family bible that my parents got for a wedding present contains books that I don't have in my copy of the Bible such as the Book of Tobit and the Book of Judith. I'm missing these books because I have a Protestant Bible. There are a whole group of books known collectively as the Apocrypha that Catholics consider canonical and Protestants do not, although they don't necessarily consider them heretical (e.g. Anglicans accept 'the Apocrypha for instruction in life and manners, but not for the establishment of doctrine'). They're being selective, and that's OK.
Posted by Toni Lavis, Sunday, 15 October 2017 10:36:06 AM
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Even if we set a strictly defined canon as a boundary condition - we'll use the Catholic canon because I'm most familiar with Catholic doctrine - there is a huge amount of selectivity when it comes to the way Catholics read their Bibles. Which is entirely understandable, given the considerable diversity within the Church. My parents are still faithful Catholics, go to mass every sunday, very involved in their parish. Most of the Bishops etc. who've offered public opinions on the gay marriage debate have urged a 'no' vote, because that's how they read their Bibles. My parents voted 'yes', because that's how they read theirs. They're being selective, and that's OK.

And I've been known to selectively read the Bible too, despite being pantheist, and that's OK. I can reject the Infancy Gospel of Thomas as a load of crap because of the miracles, and all the miracles in canonical gospels because they are equally a load of crap, and just pick out the bits I like, i.e. the philosophy. It's not a package deal.

//Quoting hateful miracles from a false gospel.//

It's only false if you choose to believe it's false. If you choose to believe it's true, then it's true. That's how religion works.
Posted by Toni Lavis, Sunday, 15 October 2017 10:38:50 AM
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//You say He is a good ethical philosophies and when asked to talk about His teaching//

Yes, did it occur to you that that might have had anything to do with your persistent efforts to attempt to rail-road a lively discussion into a non-discussion? I don't get it, dude. If you're not interested in the back-and-forth of ideas why not just go into an echoic chamber and talk to yourself?

Oh, and give the evangelising a rest. We've all heard it all before and the repetition doesn't make it more persuasive, just very tiresome. If we want to convert then that's our business, and we can get by just fine without your help.

//How much better if you could be honest instead of a liar.//

How much better it would be if you didn't throw tantrums when people challenge your ideas.

//How much better it would be if you could be upfront instead of a Hippocrate.//

Et tu, brute.

Oh, and the word is 'hypocrite'. Christ, that one's in the Bible and everything. A Hippocrate is presumably some sort of box used for transporting hippos. I imagine they'd have to be fairly sturdy.

//So instead, I think I will teach.//

You do realise this the exact reason that nobody joins your churches, right? Because of this sort of patronising behaviour?

We all have access to Bibles, and we can all read, and I must have heard both those parables at least a dozen times before. But we don't believe you're privy to some divinely revealed truth which we're all too ignorant to comprehend. And we find it rather arrogant of you that you do.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=geStcOk2tmM
Posted by Toni Lavis, Sunday, 15 October 2017 10:40:23 AM
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Not_Now.Soon,

Quoting Scripture is ineffective on anyone who is not lost and in desperate need of something (which is why God can be found at AA meetings), because there is no good reason to believe that there is any truth to what you’re quoting. You may as well be quoting Harry Potter.

If your God exists, then He knows what it would take to convince each of us of His existence. The ball is in His court. But if I were to seek out this god of yours hard enough, and for long enough, then I would eventually find Him whether or not He exists - and that’s a problem.

--

Anyway, I’m looking forward to Sells’ third instalment to this trilogy, as we are now only left with the most evil being of the trinity:

Gott der Vater!

Watch as he creates little people to love and then blames all his problems on them; be horrified as he kills and oversees the deaths of 2,476,633* people; be puzzled by his inability to forgive his creations, for what is not even their fault, without a filthy human sacrifice.

Is it a joke? Is it a delusion? Or is it just the attempt of an alleged virgin to cover up her infidelity gone way out of hand?

Romance.

Intrigue.

Desire!

This week in…

The first person of the Trinity: der Vater

*Figure does not include the countless victims of the Flood.
Posted by AJ Philips, Sunday, 15 October 2017 10:59:44 AM
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Not_Now.Soon

Hello NNS…I think you lack understanding with your approach to conversion.

If you wish to convince a body to convert to the Christian belief system, you first must convince them of the need to convert. Physics is near as ever it will be, to help with this need.

The scientific field of study is epigenetics. In crude terms, it is explaining in physical terms, how the sins of the father are passed on down the line of generations.
It's called the inherent badness of man. In colloquial terms, the bad streak, or even the black sheep of the family!
It's this bad streak, that God is attempting to rectify, by the addition of Christ!

He had one bite of the cherry with the great flood. But sadly, it was not entirely successful.
The Jews were/are battling the outcome of this failure to the present day. (Their approach to cleaning up the mess, is annihilation of the enemy in physical terms. It's why they should be feared).

Most of the bad people were drowned, but as it now appears, not all. Faulty genetics which slipped the net of the flood, have reproduced the bad-arse in man. Thus the Christian belief of a need for a saviour in Christ! The mission is to save the Gentiles, (the masses). The Jews are seen by Christians, as “hard of heart” and beyond saving!

Cont.,
Posted by diver dan, Sunday, 15 October 2017 11:37:35 AM
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Cont.,

The law. The law of Moses was made null and void by the advent of a saviour. (The Jewish way to salvation by good works, and following the law of Moses, is dead in the water). Not by good works will you be saved, but by grace alone! Your fate is entirely in Gods hands.
Believe in me and your sins (inherited genetic sins of the father), are forgiven, and you may enter the kingdom of God and be seated with him after death of the sinful body, which will remain inherently sinful on this earth, no matter what; its genetics!

There shall be no remedy for the war between good and evil here on earth, unless a way is discovered, (and it may be), to remove the epigenetic scars of sin on the DNA.

So it is possible, to my mind, the second coming of Christ may be through a Laboratory discovery that will genetically cleanse man from sin, and convert him to the perfect man here on earth. (Jehovah's witnesses).
Posted by diver dan, Sunday, 15 October 2017 11:39:22 AM
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AJPhillips

AJP. Ug….We meet again.

Tw’d be appealing if people could criticise Gods and religion on OLO, without spitting all over the page!

Were/are you a RC: X-Catholics seem the most scornful; holding religion in complete contempt.

Why not, as an alternative, view Christianity from an Historical perspective, and create some meaningful and interesting dialog? I credit you with a brain.

Man and his Gods are securely entwined in history after all.
Posted by diver dan, Sunday, 15 October 2017 3:57:11 PM
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What do you mean by “ugh”, diver dan?

<<Ug….We meet again.>>

You’re the one who has just approached me. We’d been happily ignoring each other for months until now.

<<Tw’d be appealing if people could criticise Gods and religion on OLO, without spitting all over the page!>>

How did I “spit all over the page”?

<<Were/are you a RC: X-Catholics seem the most scornful; holding religion in complete contempt.>>

No, actually, I was a Protestant. Lutheran to be precise. Catholicism is heretical.

It’s funny, though. My observations have been the opposite to yours. In my experience, former-Protestants tend to become the more vocal atheists, while atheist Catholics (I won’t call them “former”, for a reason which is about to become apparent) seem to insist on retaining the “Catholic” label, even when they realise it’s all rubbish. It’s something I’ve never understood. Paul1405 here on OLO is the only exception to this that I can think of off the top of my head. Go to any atheist/sceptic meet-up and you will see very few Catholics, because the Catholic atheists are still attending mass and calling themselves Catholic.

<<Why not, as an alternative, view Christianity from an Historical perspective, and create some meaningful and interesting dialog?>>

Sure, if you have something in mind. My primary concern, however, has always been the truth of the claims, because that's ultimately what matters.

I’ve heard others (atheists included - usually right-wing, though) claim that the West could not have possibly flourished without Christianity, yet when I ask them how Christianity did this exactly, or what we have that could not have possibly arisen without Christianity, the bold and confident proclamations tend to peter off into muttering about correlations that don’t account for sociological or environmental factors.
Posted by AJ Philips, Sunday, 15 October 2017 4:36:03 PM
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AJ Philips. You said:

[I'm doing the best I can with the limited words we’re afforded. Rationing posts is a skill that someone like myself needs to acquire in order to defend one’s ideas on an overwhelmingly conservative forum]

I understand, and have acknowledged the same issue in a different conversation. I didn't realize that you were trying as well or if there was a different element going on. When I was trying to address as many points as I could, to the best degree that I can without neglecting information for points. I got a similar response from you. I did not explain it enough to overcome your counterpoint. My complaint and frustration is that you gave so little, even with your explanation now, but you ask for others to offer much more then you yourself provide.

It is easier to provide a counterpoint that offers doubt (you can do that in less then 2 sentences), then it is to give an explanation. Keep that in mind in your responses and don't ask for something you are reluctant to provide yourself. More time, words, and effort. Or at least offer some more time and effort so I (or anyone else) can see you ask no more then what you are willing to give as well.

Yes expand on the mixed bag. I will look into collecting what I have for archeological finds.

Is Mise, what is a OUG?
Posted by Not_Now.Soon, Monday, 16 October 2017 2:19:26 PM
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Tony Lavis.

[I suspect that may have deliberate. Apparently thou shalt bear false witness when it suits thee.]

You have given me this criticism before. You have also in a different discussion included one nickname or another to insult me with on every one of your posts directed to me. At what point are you accountable for your own actions? I haven't lied about you, nor deliberately missed your point. You never made that point until now.

If I am honest with you I have guessed your age to be between 17 and 20. Hopefully not younger because of your views on sex. Hopefully not older because of a lack of maturity. In that age, I know people are less exposed to the world and less likely to know that things aren't obvious if they are not said. The world does not think like you nor can read your mind. Neither can I. If you do not say your points, then you haven't made your points.

Diver Dan. Thank you for your insight for reaching people. With respect though, I might ignore your insight at this time. Two reasons. One is that I think just teaching the bible is a good thing, and isn't done enough. It clears up misconceptions and mis-quotes by studying from direct quotes. The second reason is that converting isn't something I'm good at, nor something I can take credit for. That's God's territory. But being a Christian should be a way of life, not just a belief for the sake of salvation. With that in mind I have one more element to add on the study of God's love for us.
Posted by Not_Now.Soon, Monday, 16 October 2017 2:21:41 PM
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Take heart and be encouraged by God's love for you. But be warned. God is a protective sort. Treat others fairly and with love. And expecially don't try to trip people up, or to corrupt those who are innocent. Be good to the sinner you see, and the child who is unencumbered by the corruption of the world.

Mathew 18:6-7

6 “If anyone causes one of these little ones—those who believe in me—to stumble, it would be better for them to have a large millstone hung around their neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea. 7 Woe to the world because of the things that cause people to stumble! Such things must come, but woe to the person through whom they come!

Luke 17:1-4

Jesus said to his disciples: “Things that cause people to stumble are bound to come, but woe to anyone through whom they come. 2 It would be better for them to be thrown into the sea with a millstone tied around their neck than to cause one of these little ones to stumble. 3 So watch yourselves.

“If your brother or sister sins against you, rebuke them; and if they repent, forgive them.4 Even if they sin against you seven times in a day and seven times come back to you saying ‘I repent,’ you must forgive them.”
Posted by Not_Now.Soon, Monday, 16 October 2017 2:24:14 PM
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One more thing. An explanation. These three posts regarding the love of God are of value to be a foundation to look at other teachings such as the laws of morality and the laws to love your neighbor, even your enemy. Because God loves them. The second reason I gave these teachings are because they have been on my mind in discussions with many of you. Having to remind myself that God loves each of you and to not let my frustrations with some of these conversations become a stumbling block for you to find God. I might not be what leads any of you to change your mind and accept God to be real and active in the world, but if I take my frustrations and act on them I can be a stumbling block for you from someone else trying to reach you.

Regardless if you believe in God or not though, please remember. You are always welcome at church. God loves you greatly. If you become Christian God will look after you as He would anyone else in His flock. Do not fear and do not worry. Even if you die or lose much, God has you. Try hard in life and trust in God. And remember that God is protective of those He loves. That includes everyone, so take advantage of no one and treat everyone fairly and with kindness or integrity. No matter who they are.
Posted by Not_Now.Soon, Monday, 16 October 2017 2:46:58 PM
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The cook is welcome in church.
OCT. 11, 2017
BELFAST, Northern Ireland — When a young Catholic cook moved into a newly built house in a Protestant part of Belfast last September, it was a vote of faith in not just his own future — but that of the province of Northern Ireland.

That hope ended just before midnight on a Tuesday in late September, when two policemen knocked on his door and that of three other Catholic families in Cantrell Close. “We believe there is a threat on your life,” the cook remembers being told, “if you’re not out of your property by Friday.”

The cook, his pregnant fiancée and their 14-month-old son were gone by Wednesday morning. At least two other Catholic families left that day, too, while others told local politicians that they wanted to leave as soon as possible.
Posted by nicknamenick, Monday, 16 October 2017 3:13:38 PM
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//At what point are you accountable for your own actions?//

At all points along my worldline where I'm conscious, because I'm accountable to my conscience and it is my constant companion.

//I haven't lied about you, nor deliberately missed your point.//

Well that's good to know.

Although I note that you've failed to address any of my other points. What, you can only address one point per post or something?

Maybe if you devoted fewer words to personal attacks on the basis of my perceived immaturity, you'd have more space to devote to arguments and rebuttals.

//You never made that point until now.//

Yeah, I did. On Friday. Here's the link:

http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=19345#343854

And here's the relevant quote:

//You don't? But that's what Christians do. Everybody reads the Bible selectively.//

And here's your rebuttal:

//Do you have any teachings of Jesus you would like to discuss?//

Because if your first attempt to rail-road the discussion doesn't work, why not just keep repeating yourself? That's bound not to annoy people that enjoy healthy debate. (sarcasm)

//If I am honest with you I have guessed your age to be between 17 and 20.//

Oh dear, it sounds like somebody has been taking mind-reading lessons from the Amazing Phanto. Sorry, old reference... probably before your time. Link here:

http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=19267#342653

I am very nearly 9.57321407938342 x 10^18 periods of the radiation corresponding to the transition between the two hyperfine levels of the ground state of the caesium-133 atom old, in case you're actually interested.
Posted by Toni Lavis, Monday, 16 October 2017 5:35:08 PM
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//Hopefully not older because of a lack of maturity.//

Yep, definitely studying under the Amazing Phanto: zero insight, but that doesn't matter because it was just the build up to some personal abuse. Charming. And so very Christian.

Oh well... as a wise man once said: 'whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.'

//In that age, I know people are less exposed to the world//

Well if that is the metric we're using to determine age (rather than the standard and more commonly accepted metric of rotations around the sun), I think yours would be in negative terms. No offence, but you come across as more sheltered than an armadillo in a kevlar jacket living in a specially sheltered habitat inside the Presidential nuclear bunker.

//The world does not think like you nor can read your mind. Neither can I.//

Hold onto that last thought. The Amazing Phanto may not have fully corrupted you yet.

//If you do not say your points, then you haven't made your points.//

But if I do - and it's hard to get more direct than 'Everybody reads the Bible selectively' - and you don't read so good, then that is your fault, no mea culpa required on my part.

//Regardless if you believe in God or not though//

Where does God come into this? I thought we were talking about a Jewish carpenter called Jesus.

Worst bait & switch ever.
Posted by Toni Lavis, Monday, 16 October 2017 5:37:26 PM
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Dear Nick,

Your reference to the cook is disturbing, but my experience is very different. Though not a Christian, I am always most welcome in church, I actively participate in services, I have clergy as friends and nobody ever asked me why I don't become a Christian.
Posted by Yuyutsu, Monday, 16 October 2017 8:25:19 PM
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The cook was disturbed by the 3500 previous deaths and also the Thirty Years' War was the deadliest European religious war. It took place in Central Europe between 1618 and 1648 and resulted in eight million casualties .
Posted by nicknamenick, Tuesday, 17 October 2017 1:24:16 PM
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To AJ Phillips. Some archeological finds.

Here is a site that gives several archeological remains that support several narratives of events in the bible.

http://www.equip.org/article/biblical-archaeology-factual-evidence-to-support-the-historicity-of-the-bible/

In that site it includes.
-The Code of Hammurabi. A find that gives the laws of Babylonian empire.
-The Nuzi Tablets.
-The Merneptah Stele.
-hieroglyphic wall carvings on the Temple of Amon at Thebes, that tell about a Pharaoh's conquest on Judea (mentioned in 1st Kings 14 and 2nd Chronicles 12)
-The Moabite Stone
-Obelisk of Shalmaneser III
-Burial Plaque of King Uzziah.
-Hezekiah’s Siloam Tunnel Inscription.
-The Sennacherib Prism.
-The Cylinder of Cyrus the Great.
-as well as evidence of cities mentioned in the bible and their factually existing.
-and a discovery of the remains of Joseph Caiaphas, one of the high priests mentioned in Jesus's trial before being crucified.

There is also (might have to look these up separately. I know of them from a study bible "NIV First-Century Study Bible.")
-A carving of an Assyrian battle scene (c.728 BC) that relates to Jeremiah 19:7
-Tablet discovered in 2007 confirms the historical accuracy of Jeremiah.
-seal impressions of Baruch, who was a scribe of Jeremiah.
-"Lamentation over the distraction of Ur." A tablet of non biblical writing similar to the bible book "Lamentations.
-Brick of Nebuchadnezzar II
-Relief of Persian King Darius the Great. Gives historical credit to Haggai who was an old testament prophet said to begin his preaching in the second year of King Darius's reign.
Posted by Not_Now.Soon, Wednesday, 18 October 2017 2:24:41 AM
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One other thing AJ Phillips.

You said earlier
[the Bible was never reliable to begin with.]

But latter amended this statement.
[it is unreliable evidence for a divine Jesus.]

I'm not sure if this list of finds will help you or not, but if at least the bible can be given credit as showing historical accuracy that's at least a start.
Posted by Not_Now.Soon, Wednesday, 18 October 2017 2:33:33 AM
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