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The Forum > Article Comments > Stoning the Aussie Mossie? > Comments

Stoning the Aussie Mossie? : Comments

By Irfan Yusuf, published 22/8/2005

Irfan Yusuf replies to John Stone's criticisms of the Australian Muslim population.

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Your point needs to be stated again and again in the face of the nonsense generated by the likes of Stone. One of our nations strengths, only demonstrated in the last few decades has been its ability to integrate all nations into one society.
With out doubt there are varying degree of integration - some migrants totally assimilate in fact - if thats what they want to do fine. Stone and his cronies wants to drag us back to the fifties - or further still more likely - where women wore hats and gloves to church, where working mens clubs were in every suburb, where most were deferential to the few and where things like olives and salami where considered exotic foods.
Stones veiws marginalise people and generates a sense of persecution and anxiety where none should exist. They drive people back into themselves crushing the exchange of ideas and dialogue If you want to advance extremism of the fundamentalist kind embrace the extremism of the Stone kind.
It is not surpising that that there are constant calls, like those from Stone, to tun back the clock; in some respects Blainey was right in his assessment of Australians - many Australians have been over whelmed by the changes brought about by migration - but many more have not. And those who have not been spooked by people with a differeent religion or appearance have a reponsibiltiy to remain steadfast in the face of racism - and worse, the fear of what is different.
Posted by sneekeepete, Monday, 22 August 2005 2:04:36 PM
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John Stone speaks for a great many Australians from all walks of life who will disagree that his arguments are “shallow” and who will find nothing of real substance in Irfan Yusuf’s opposing opinion. Nobody could seriously believe that the religious beliefs of a bank CEO and a financial contributor to football have any bearing on the matters raised by John Stone any more than the history of Muslim presence in a Australia, including the trading for sea slugs between Aborigines and Muslims from Indonesia for thousands of years, has any bearing on what is rapidly becoming known by commentators as the “Muslim problem” today. If Irfan Yusuf knows anything about real “average” Australians, he does not demonstrate it in his piece. He would be well advised to take the advice he gives to John Stone: get out more. What you hear from vote-grabbing politicians and academics is not necessarily the same as you will hear from Australians who, in John Stones words, are sick of it.
Posted by Leigh, Monday, 22 August 2005 3:11:36 PM
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Irfan: Back to the old chestnut "how do I trust moslems?" Moslems are allowed, commanded, to LIE to infidels. Please do not insult my intelligence to say that this is not in your koran. Islamic governments are able to abrogate any pacts or treaties made with other nations. When weak the treaties are made but when these governments are stronger out go these treaties. The name for this lying and treachery is - "al-taqiyya" or "hudna". Please do not put me down as a liar as this can, as you know, be shown to be true. If I could trust you I would be more than willing to live in peace with you as a fellow Australian. Yet so many of your compatriots say, with vehemence, that their loyalty does not lie with Australia. Yes we have had the Afghan camelliers with us in Australia for yonks but they did not want to destroy us and our values as many moslem want to do today. I am sorry but moslems appear to be quite un-trustworthy. numbat
Posted by numbat, Monday, 22 August 2005 3:53:48 PM
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John Stone argues that: “our future immigration policy should focus on whether those concerned are capable of assimilating into an Australian culture”. But tolerance and the celebration of diversity – the core ideals of multiculturalism, as understood by its proponents and practitioners – are integral to Australian values, not some alien graft or recent fad. And the fruit of those values – a rich, diverse, dynamic, interesting, globally-attuned society and community - represent the truly authentic Australian culture, not the arid monoculture of the like-minded that Stone seems to crave.

Muslims like those described by Irfan have and do make a major contribution to Australian life. By talking about real people and real historical events, Irfan gives the lie to the poisonous generalisations of those who speak of a “Muslim problem”.
Posted by Rhian, Monday, 22 August 2005 3:54:12 PM
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G'day Leigh,

Could you please tell me who your ' real average Australians' are and especially what they look like? Seriously, please tell me, I want to know if I'm one or if I've met one!

This contention appears to be central to your arguement I think it would be much more powerful if you provided some details about who these people are.

I await your response.
Posted by Rainier, Monday, 22 August 2005 4:47:51 PM
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Irfan, you are wrong and John Stone is wrong. Culture is not the problem, religious culture is the problem. It was the same with the invasion of the christian religion, it is the same with the islamic invasion. Our indigenous peoples didn't have the understanding to save their culture against the might of the European christians and their wrathful god. Australians of today, know what religion can do to a culture, that is why they are objecting.

Sadly people are always scared of change and that goes triple for the religious, that"s why they end up fighting each other. Take any place or culture in the world, you will always find most are accepting and hospitable, they may laugh at the visitors cultural approach, in a humorous way, the visitor may laugh at their hosts ways. It is all good fun, a good learning curve exchanging cultural differences. But if you laugh at their religious culture, or they laugh at yours, then we have trouble, as can be seen around the world.

The problem stems from the fact that those seeking to become part of Australia, not only want to contribute some of their countries culture to our life styles, which is really good, but they also want to emforce their religious culture as well.

From a personal point of view, I love the variety of cultures we have here, but I can't stand any of the religious culture thats imposed upon us.

Muslims have the right to believe what they want, but those rights must stop when it effects the country that has adopted them. That is the problem we are faced with. I take exception to someone entering my business whilst fully covered in a shroud and I can't see who I am talking to. That is not Australian culture, it is islamic religious culture and has no place here.

Live here by all means, but keep your religious culture for islamic countries and let us keep ours.

Religion should be restricted to places of worship and in the home. In public, walk our way, or go away.
Posted by The alchemist, Monday, 22 August 2005 4:58:23 PM
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"Our indigenous peoples didn't have the understanding to save their culture against the might of the European christians and their wrathful god. Australians of today, know what religion can do to a culture, that is why they are objecting."
Posted by The alchemist, Monday, 22 August 2005 4:58:23 PM

If this quote by Alchemist is truly about protecting a "national culture" (one that ontinues to deny its own appropriations of privilege and power from critical scrutiny) how can you possibly tout cultural protection with any real integrity?

In some historical contexts this statement has some validity,(Darwinian social theories aside) but lets remember that these same "Australians" who suddenly want to apply an "understanding of cultural death" won't support contemporary calls by Aboriginal peoples to Rights to cultural heritage, land and justice. so this is a very disingenuous claim.

The hysterical screams by right wingers after the 1992 Mabo decision are still ringing in my ear. The death of "Australian culture' was repeatedly used by Stone and others who smuggle up together to comfort each other from invading aliens. It a deep seated paranoia in white Australia's cultural psyche that is simply embarrassing to more enlightened.

13 years later nothing has really changed, only poor Muslims are now in the 'spot light' for being 'culturally difference, peculiar and unnecessary to a "great Australian project" that no one seems able to precisely explain.

PS : I always get a giggle from that phrase ‘Our indigenous people’..Fruedian slip or what?
Posted by Rainier, Monday, 22 August 2005 6:32:11 PM
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ALCHEMIST... in all seriousness, I'm detecting a very deep level of pain and or hurt in your life, possibly due to someone you respected or loved who betrayed you. Someone who was also supposed to epitomise the values and love of Christ... I don't say this with any sarcasm, but your comment in the other thread.. here is the opportunity (again) jdrmot@tpg.com.au <== I know a cry for help when I see one.

IRFAN.. I heard you on radio today.. nice voice man :) be assured, Muslims like you should not feel threatened by what most of us are advocating. But again, in all seriousness, if you want the community to be accepted, there are some VERY important running sores which need to be addressed.

1/ ISLAMIC PRAYER HALL of Baulkam Hills which used the courts to STOMP ON the community sentiment. (anyone who thinks people will forget THAT is living in cloud cuckoo land)

2/ The CATCH THE FIRE supression of free speech case. Admittedly this was probably the best thing for the Christian church for decades :) but at the same time, should never have happened.

3/ Various LEGAL INROADS which give the Islamic community 'special treatment. (Stamp duty laws, burial laws, emergency service procedures)

4/ So called ISLAMIC DRESS, it would be very nice if we did not get 'in your face' Islam with the extreme difference in clothing. I absolutely believe that clothing could be selected which served the purpose which looked less 'different' to the basic types we wear.
Irfan.. isn't religion a matter of the INSIDE.. not the outside ?

5/ INDUSTRIAL RELATIONS: 30% unemployment among Muslims. Why ? DUE TO the abovementioned examples of 'in your face' and 'our culture or no culture' kind of thing, we employers would NEVER want someone who is going to want time off to pray during worktime, or want friday off for the same reason. They can fit in with OUR break times or don't bother working.

I'm just being honest. Not meant to sound hateful.
Posted by BOAZ_David, Monday, 22 August 2005 7:35:14 PM
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I don't know what to say Rainer, your religion sure makes you angry. You are certainly wrong about my views, but your are not wrong about John Stone and his.

You have no idea of my relationship, understanding, or my views regarding the original Australians. If you are referring to me as one “these same "Australians" who suddenly want to apply an "understanding of cultural death" won't support contemporary calls by Aboriginal peoples to Rights to cultural heritage, land and justice. so this is a very disingenuous claim.” then you are very sad person.

My reference to Australian culture was with regard to it consisting a lot of different cultures, that make us what we are, I didn't say it was good or bad, thats our culture and it will change, as it should. Maybe you don't understand the difference between a social culture and a religious culture. Or your religion may stop you.

Except for animism, I see all religion as wrong in its intent and its practise. If you had read some of my other posts elswhere, you will know of a small part of my feelings and relationships with those that have lived here for an eternity. I know that their cultures would improve our understanding of the right way to treat the land, as well as help give them back some of what they have lost.

For me, the survial of both their culture, their way of life and themsleves should be one of the highest priority in the country. If you think that is condesending, then nothing will help you. I am at least trying to do bring it out. What are you doing, except misunderstanding and ranting.

And for your information, my ancestors who were not criminals or free settlers, but were forcibly transported to this country because of their culture. Like all the religious, you always get it wrong when anyone you determine doesn't agree with your blinkered views.

You are just like the Stones of the world, just go by another name and ism.
Posted by The alchemist, Monday, 22 August 2005 8:00:14 PM
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"Some conservatives find it impossible to accept that non-Christian religions can teach values consistent with the allegedly Christian values of mainstream Australia..." Make that "Islam", not just any religion.

So Mr. Yusuf, what do you say about a man that cannot bring himself to condem a slaver, murdurer and torturer? I don't think most "Christians" or even "non-Christians" would have much trouble doing this, but somehow when it comes to Muslims being honest about the man they call "prophet" they suddenly become silent. On three separate occasions I have given you references from Islamic sources on the evil deeds done by Mohammud, and I have asked you if the man who did this was a "good" person, and you have ignored me (at least I consider cutting off hands and feet, putting hot nails in eyes and then letting the victim die of thirst to be evil.... maybe you don't!). I could give other references of other horrible actions, but that one has an easy link.

This is why Muslims are not to be trusted. This is why Islam is an evil religion. If even "moderate' and 'liberal' Muslims cannot condemn a man who tortured and killed so many times then why should anyone assume they have any respect for so-called "Western" values, or they can live in peace with non-Muslims. Think it through, folks, if their dear leader killed, raped and tortured (according to their own writings), and he is, according to Muslims, a "great example", well, figure it out yourself.

I have nothing but contempt for Islam. At its core, it is a religion of anger, hate, and violence. No amount of sugar coating can hide this. Any country that accepts Muslims is insane - Islam is a cancer. Look what it has done to Muslim-dominated countries. Look at the problems that Muslim immigrants everywhere take with them to their new countries. Check out what Islam is doing to Europe. I suggest:
http://fjordman.blogspot.com/ and http://blog.bearstrong.net/ and http://www.peaktalk.com/

Think about it. The facts are clear.

So, Mr Yusef, how about an answer?

John, aka, Kactuzkid
Posted by kactuz, Tuesday, 23 August 2005 1:40:13 AM
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Ranier,

Just this once. I don’t regard this forum as a chat room and I will not criticise the opinion of other posters no matter how much I disagree with them. Let's leave the criticism for the contributors like Yusuf and others who have a stake in trying to persuade us to their way of thinking. That’s what they are for: without them there would be no forum where interested people could express their opinions.

You know full well what I mean by average Australian, Ranier. They are also called the ‘silent majority’, and they have opinions but never express them. They are made use of by politicians – hence we get the governments THEY deserve because they make up the majority, and voting is the only time they even think about democracy, and even then they vote for the ‘same old same old’ as a duty and not a hard won right. If they don’t get a jolt soon, they won’t even be doing that. Because of these average Australians (they are like average citizens all over the world), politicians were able to slip ‘multiculturalism’ in without consultation. They will sell off Telstra without hearing what the average Australian really wants. They sold off the electricity supply in SA after telling us they would not. Given time and space for a list, I think we would all be horrified at the number of things brought in without consultation with the people because Mr. & Mrs. Average have been too disinterested, frightened or whatever to stand up and shout. All they allow us to do is periodically get one of two elected dictatorships who can virtually do as they wish for 3 or 4 years.

Average citizens don’t have their rights spelled out to them because it is not in the interest of politicians to do so. And it is probably not in Irfan Yusuf’s interests, either. It behoves Yusuf and the pro-multiculturalists to give them a chance to speak if they want the real truth.

Regards
Posted by Leigh, Tuesday, 23 August 2005 12:28:06 PM
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Leigh

I don’t know any “average Australians” of the type you describe – silent, resentful dupes “made use of” by politicians and occasionally electing “dictatorships” “as a duty”. If we really lived in a dictatorship, what do you think would happen to you and I and almost all other posters and writers on this forum and site?

If the silent majority “never express” their opinions, how can you even be certain that they have opinions, let alone claim to know what those opinions are?

It seems to me most people who invoke the phrase “silent majority” almost always assume that these taciturn masses share their own ideology, and that this endorsement is proof that their shared opinions are correct, and all opposing views wrong.

Logically, even if most people hold an opinion, that does not necessarily make it correct, authoritative or beyond dispute – especially if the "silent majority" really is as dull-witted and apathetic as you describe.

In my experience, Australians are a much more lively, diverse, competent, engaged and opinionated bunch than you give them credit for. And the evidence generally suggests that most of them support multiculturalism –

http://sbs.com.au/media/2872SBS_Living_Diversity.pdf
http://www.newspoll.com.au/cgi-bin/display_poll_data.pl
Posted by Rhian, Tuesday, 23 August 2005 1:30:51 PM
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Most of Australians support multiculturalism? Dream on.
Posted by davo, Tuesday, 23 August 2005 2:27:13 PM
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I must be living in another Australia.The mayor of my city is a Chinese, the mayor of my suburb was a Chinese and the new one has a Greek name, the suburb I shop in is full of Chinese merchants and customers, my dry cleaner is Vietnamese, my favourite cafe owner is Persian and there are lots of very tall,very dark skinned Sudanese young people on the suburban train. And I have even been to the open day at the local mosque and it did not scare me one bit.And my favourite food is Lebanese. What a wonderful country the Australia is that I live in.Hope some of you can join me one day Pluto
Posted by Pluto, Tuesday, 23 August 2005 2:58:07 PM
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If you don’t know any of the people I describe, Rhian, you probably don’t want to know. If you do wish to find out about other people outside your own circle of beliefs, it is up to you to go looking if you want balance. The silent majority will express their opinions if you take the trouble to ask for them. But, as Mrs. Beaton said, first catch your hare.

You are drawing a very long bow in saying that people who invoke the silent majority assume that the SM share their opinions. Many of the people I have spoken to don’t agree with everything I think. Some don’t agree with anything I think! The point is, until this huge store of feeling and opinion is tapped, we can’t make definite statements about who supports what. An added problem is that many people cannot or will not differentiate between a non-consultative introduction of multiculturalism as an official policy, and immigration. It’s not up to me to lecture you on the difference, but you might like to think about why anti-multiculturalism doesn’t = anti-immigration or racism. We have people here of all races and have had since the First Fleet. Until the introduction of this divisive policy, nobody was concerned, apart from small number of racially motivated agitators. Now, we even have people confusing religion with race!

As for your comments on my elected dictatorship, Rhian, I can only suggest that you widen your reading. Political scientists often describe our system of democracy as such. I just happen to agree with them. I’m no expert. And, I don’t think you need worry about your right to free speech
Posted by Leigh, Wednesday, 24 August 2005 12:48:22 PM
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Hello all, long time lurker here.

I would like to go back to Mr Yusuf's article and take issue with just one aspect: that his friend Abdul Rizvi is happy to administer the Mandatory Detention regime.

How can anyone who believes in treating his neighbour as he would wish to be treated (i.e. Muslims OR Christians, supposedly) have anything to do with this regime which has caused so much harm?

Independent medical practitioners all over the country have assiduously documented the extreme psychological damage wrought by Mandatory Detention and the department's various other draconian policies, yet the religious men and women in the government/public service blithely carry on (with the exception of a few backbenchers).

How do they justify their participation in this regime to themselves and their religious friends?

I am not a religious person, but I spent a lot of my childhood in sunday school/chapel/religious ed. classes and from what I learned there such people are all committing terrible sins.

Can anyone explain it to me?

TIA

//Adam F
Posted by Arctophile, Wednesday, 24 August 2005 2:44:34 PM
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Science has yet to be able to explain the pandemic that sweeps the world constantly, in the forms of a mental aberration called religion and ism's.

It rises and falls, spreads out, then once it has depleted itself through chaos, death and destruction, it recedes and relative sanity prevails for awhile.

Luckily a lot of the human race has recognised this problem and is developing immunity to it's variant strains.

We are in the midst of another pandemic now, who knows how much destruction it will do when it reaches here, by previous examples, we could be in real trouble.
Posted by The alchemist, Wednesday, 24 August 2005 3:19:54 PM
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A very shallow article indeed which only papers over the very real problems the Muslim community faces within itself. Let's forget about the massive issue of terrorism for a moment.

The average Australian wouldn't know who the CEO of the NAB is, nor would they have any idea who John Ilhan is. They do see riots at almost every second Canterbury Bulldogs game-reported by police to be instigated by young muslims. Average Australians also watch 60Minutes and are revolted by Lebanese gangs ridiculing the ANZACS. Most Australians watch the 6o'clock news and just can't understand how a devout Islamic family can justify the gang rape of young caucasian women by their sons.

Of course these attitudes aren't reflective of the Muslim community in general, but how often are these attitudes vigorously, and unanimously condemned by the wider Islamic community? There always seems to be some excuse or rationalisation. One week it is blamed on a lack of funding for education. The next week it is because 'white girls lead on young men'. The week after that it is because police pick on Australians of lebanese extraction. In fact just last week it was because young muslims feel ostracised after September 11.

This problem existed long before September 11. It is up to Islamic community leaders to fix it. Otherwise the average Australian may just run out of sympathy. I know I have.
Posted by wre, Wednesday, 24 August 2005 4:33:02 PM
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Irfan Yusuf is typical of a desperate person trying not to drown, hanging on to pieces of wood as they float past, although none adequate to hold him up....

They can't hold him up as his arguments are extremely weak. To delude oneself that Muslims are fitting in here is beyond belief, and as someone who lived in the western suburbs, I saw no evidence of this.

To mention one or two who have fit in is an insult to our intelligence, and one begins to wonder if the writer should even be take seriously.

Muslims have repeatedly stated that they don't want to fit in here, that we must alter to suite Islam, such is their misplaced arrogance, and confidence in their superiority.

Irfan, where do you stand on Sharia Law? Sharia Law is divinely inspired, according to Muslims, who are to expand it by any means necessary, hence the aggression from day one of this religion.

Even the so-called moderates are a laughing stock, common Irfan, you can't expect Australians to take you seriously. I note the Australian columnist Matt Price, trying to get the 13 moderates to condemn him.....most wouldn't even answer, but the three who did refused to.

Sheik Fehmi, from Melbourne, who is consiered the champion moderate, said "I don't want to make any statement about Bin Laden because I don't know him", doesn't this say it all fellow reader?

Middle-eastern, Muslim, crime is out of control, and no I'm not just talking of the "in the media" gang rapes, murders. I'm talking about the day to day stuff that never makes the papers...the bashings on white Australian males at the local Westfields for being a "skip"...or the Lebanese youth who run up to girls in the plaza asking her for sex, even while she is with her mother.

You can't deny that the youth have severe disrespect for Australian society, hence the racist gang rapes (which happens in every Muslim diaspora in the western world, so it's obviously cultural)....I believe this comes directly from their racist parents, who teach that we are scum "kaffir"...
Posted by Benjamin, Wednesday, 24 August 2005 8:01:07 PM
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... This is the number one problem, the sickening racism & bigotry which is apparent in the Islamic community.

Your community has been a big problem for 15 years now, with welfare fraud, disgusting unemployment, filthy compensation claims, racist bashings on whites, more!

Irfan, I was down & out a few years back, and visited the Smith family for a voucher. What did I see in the 15 minutes I was there? I saw the lovely old volunteer lady (oh yeah, how many Muslims do volunteer work in the wider community Irfan? How many in the ambo's, police, army, SES? Hardly any because your community is racist & hate us) abusing & turning away about five Muslim couples (I could tell by the veils) because apparently they were all coming back every week for more. None of them looked down & out as I was, and I doubt any of them were drinking their rent money, they had nice watches, were well groomed, nice cars out the front. Take take take the old lady said, and they probably went away thinking she was racist!

Then there is the crime Irfan, oh the crime. Gunshots at the Iraqi election poll in Auburn, the feuding families shooting each other in broad daylight, the sickening comments Muslims make to unacompanied women (as apparently it's their right to pressure them for sex, anyone interested in this should read the HREOC report into children in detention, which showed how racist Muslims are to non-Muslims in detention centres even, refusing to share utensils with kaffir, pressuring the women for sex, one Iranian Christian girl tried to kill herself because the Muslim men wanted to have sex with her) plus much more that won't fit here.......

No Irfan, it is your community. Forget the buzz words the leftists have handed you like "marginalisation" or "police racism", it is your community who are on the whole, extremely bigoted. What your community is doing here, it is doing in every western nation you have gone too....so ungrateful.....
Posted by Benjamin, Wednesday, 24 August 2005 8:15:51 PM
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My, my, my.... This is turning very very ugly.

First of all... Benjamin, I do agree with you that the Muslim community has problems, but I do think you're a bit too eager to slander them. I know, at least, in America, most Muslim communities have higher rates of education, lower crime rates, and generally have higher incomes. It might be different in Australia, but what we see in America is that they can be useful members of society.

And not all muslim communities are like that. Why, in the state of Abu Dhabi, there is a goodly sized christian community, and the people enjoy one the highest standards of living in the world, and it seems to be a very decent place.

I think most of the problems that you associate with Muslims in their countries actually stem from severe poverty in those regions. Eastern Europe (A mainly orthodox christian region) has a tremendous amount of problems with rape, child abuse, forced prostitution and local crime and terrorism. Of course, I know they don't try to pass it off in the name of religion, but I do remember that many Catholic priests were caught doing something very nasty against young boys. Just to illustrate that holy men of all religions are often not very holy at all, in both Islam and Christianity.

I have nothing against Christianity or Islam. There are problems with Islam, but they can be overcome. I understand your feelings, but remember, there is no black and white.
Posted by Unconquered_Sun, Thursday, 25 August 2005 3:39:01 AM
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The problem with this topic is that people, like John Stone, seem to be determined to drag up the worst of the others' religion. In doing so they drag up the negatives in their own. I think Liberal/National Party politicians, like Stone, need their profile and they don't care if they hurt others'and this country in the process.
Posted by rancitas, Thursday, 25 August 2005 3:20:08 PM
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I absolutely agree that Australian politics stinks at times. Just look at what has happened to Barnaby Joyce. In addition 'Benyamin' I really thik you should make sure your comments are a little qualified, and look like they are at least slightly informed.

Having said that I still stand by my previous post on this topic. The Islamic community in this country has its head in the sand in general. As long as its leadership continues to sit on the fence regarding Bin Laden, Lebanese gang crime, and the defence of basic tenets of a liberal democracy, they will get no sympathy from the average Australian.
Posted by wre, Thursday, 25 August 2005 3:31:17 PM
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wre

Thank you for your last two posts.
Posted by kalweb, Saturday, 27 August 2005 4:18:31 PM
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It seems many are missing the very point this article is attempting to articulate. It does have its flaws but think past them and consider the wider picture for a minute. The presence of rogue elements in a group or religion does not invalidate their whole ethos. Numbat's piece is particularly astray quoting the "hudna". Exact quotations taken out of context are misleading and mischievious. Could I really stone my neighbour because he's working on the Sabbath (Exodus 35:2)? And how about selling my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7? Surely the fundamental and extreme elements are the one's to worry about? A televangilist in the US has recently come out supporting the assasination of Chavez (Venesuela). Regardless of religion it is this sort of intolerance and hate that does the most damage. The thing we ought really to be intolerant of is intolerance itself..........not Moslems, Jews, Christians or whatever per se. That would be unaustralian!
Posted by mountebank, Monday, 29 August 2005 12:34:14 PM
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Unconquered and Rancitas...

For two months I have been trying to find Muslims who can tell me why anybody should respect a person like Mohammud. Call me Diogenes.

When I go to Muslim sites and leave posts, they are deleted (except for Altmuslim.com). When I debate with Muslims on non-moderated public sites, they ignore me. Irfan not only ignores me, he accused me of wanting to kill Muslims.

Here we go....
Here is a story from a Hadith about Mohammud: www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/052.sbt.html (Please read 261). Cutting body parts? Heated nails in eyes? Thirst? Sure the guy was a thief, but....

There are other stories but that one has an easy link to a Muslim group. I could have cited where Mo has a fire built on a man's chest to make him talk. Or I could have mentioned slavery, or taking captive woman to his bed, or unprovoked raids on caravans, or hundreds of executions? Its all there in your histories. And then there is the little girl playing with dolls that Mo takes to his bed. Doesn't the fact that he had special rules for himself tell you something? How can he be an "example" if you aren't permited to do what he did? Why does an "example" have to forbid criticism of his person?

So for two months I have been trying to get a Muslim to answer my question.

I understand that it can be hard for a Muslim to talk about this, but it is important. Muslims and non-Muslims are on a crash course, and this issue is part of the problem.

So, can you help me? Why should anyone respect this guy? Another obvious question is why should anybody believe or trust a group of people (Muslims!) that not only cannot condemn a slaver, murderer and torturer, but think he is a shinning example of virtue. In over 20 postings on this question, the best response was that the issue was "problematic".

John Aka Kactuz
Posted by kactuz, Tuesday, 30 August 2005 1:58:37 AM
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mountebank as I said it was termed 'hudna' or/and 'taqiyya'. I would suggest that writers to this forum visit http://jihadwatch.org/ you will find it most interesting, and read the koran. numbat
Posted by numbat, Tuesday, 30 August 2005 2:55:02 PM
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Great to be back from holidays and see the same ‘loving comments’..nothing changed.

How r u BD?

Been living as an Aussie muslim since 1996 in this great country. I see most muslims like other Australians as law abiding citizens, good neighbours, hard working, watch cricket and footy, go for a weekend outdoors.

Maybe someone can tell us what is so ‘un-australian’ about the above?
The likes of Mr Stone should maybe elaborate on what values are we missing?

As for Kaktuz / numbat: reason why people won’t debate you is your funky ‘creative references’. Muslims are answering questions everyday on the Koran on Islamic websites and mosques. Hadith is different so most of it is questionable collected 200 years after the prophet Mohamed’s death.

You would also need to read credible historians work and there are many.

And why debate anyway, aren’t you happy with whatever it is you are in?
Posted by Fellow_Human, Tuesday, 30 August 2005 3:45:23 PM
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Fellow human i take your point. There is no gain in debating religious semantics from centuries ago. I also agree that the majority of muslims in Australia are model citizens, and that Islam is not inherrently a 'bad' faith.

However please see my two previous posts on this article, and explain to me why the greater, law abiding, muslim community stays relatively silent on such affronts?! For instance, how can a group of 'moderates' handpicked by John Howard (of all people) contain individuals that pedal the September 11 Jewish conspiracy theory, and proclaim Bin Laden a great man?

The writing is indelably on the wall. If muslim adults don't loudly, and unambiguously condemn such nonsense, it is their children who will be indoctrinated into believing it. This happened with horrible consequences in London, and it will happen in Australia if the status quo of indifference to, and defence of these extremist clerics continues.
Posted by wre, Tuesday, 30 August 2005 4:57:20 PM
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To the coward who thinks I'm nasty, re-read what I posted, then tell me if any of it is wrong, and I'll happily debate you. If you can show me where I'm wrong, I'll accept, and likely start to hold your view.

This is the nature of the north-western European culture, of which I am a part. However, most of the world's other cultures, particularly Islamic cultures, there is no debate. If you don't agree with Sharia Law, you get sentenced to gang-rape by tribal elders, then stoned for adultery!

Debate me, although I suspect you will have to go away & cry as I am right.

Anyone catch Insight last night? I'll let you in on something. When that Islamic lady, the one who the racist black guy, Sheik Yassin I believe, was saying "yes sister to", she said that she has friends who come to her and say "What can I do? My daughter has an Australian friend, but I can't allow her to mix!" THIS SAYS IT ALL. I LIVED AMONG THIS COMMUNITY WHILE GROWING UP, AND THAT IS VERY COMMON. THEY THINK AUSTRALIAN GIRLS ARE SLUTS FOR NOT WEARING THE HIJAB, WE"VE SEEN WHAT THEIR MALES THINK OF OUR WOMEN, no not all, but definitely most.

I still remember when I lived at Liverpool, going to the local Westfields I would see scores of Lebanese youth hanging around the front, regularly bashing up white skips like me. I remember that when an attractive Australian young woman would walk past, they'd all run up offering their phone numbers, asking for oral sex, loud enough so passers-by could hear. Although, if a veil walked past, they'd all be quite, respectful.

THIS IS COMMON YOU FOOLS. Anyone who doesn't believe me, take your daughter down to Auburn shops, Bankstown shops, Parramatta shops, on a Thursday night, and feel the rage as you see their racism.

RACISM IS WHAT IT IS, the leftist teachers at school tried to brainwash us into believing that only whites are racist, but life has taught me that this is actually the opposite...
Posted by Benjamin, Wednesday, 31 August 2005 9:14:15 PM
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I can't believe the naivety of many posts here! Do you people really not know? Don't read the papers? Don't see the prison numbers? Middle-eastern people make up more than the number of Aboriginies in our prisons, yet they are only 300000 community! Also, where are the Muslim drunks, drug addicts, like the Aboriginals, which are reasons for their madness!

I guess when your sole experience of multiculti is the restaurant you dine in, you have a different outlook then when you actually live among them, for years, seeing your neighbours waving Lebanese flags after the 911 attacks in the street, and Muslims hugging on the sidewalk.

You people are the reason they go on, having ten kids while never working. Have any of you ever seen the unemployment stats on the Turkish community? 90% unemployment! Yet again, no drug or alcohol problems. It is racism

Ever seen a volunteer worker of Muslim origin? Outside of their own tribalistic community I mean. Isn't it weird that in Bankstown, the fire brigafde, police, ambo's, SES volunteers have one Arab between them? Do you not see that this lack of wanting to fit in shows they are racist?

These orgs go out of their way to get these ethnocentric groups to sign up, but no, this nation is a bank to these people. They view their Citizenship as a CENTRELINK form.

It will all come out in the next ten years, indeed, if one looks to five years back, at the height of One Nation, everybody is now saying the same. ATSIC should go she said, there will be violence here from certain ethnic groups, who want to alter our way of life.....hhmmmm. Still, those who are brainwashed to believe that only the white man can be a bigot won't see it until your being attacked in the street!
Posted by Benjamin, Wednesday, 31 August 2005 9:27:39 PM
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Benjamin,
All i can say is that you're living proof that freedom of speech is alive and well - which ensures that even the most uninformed punter can have a say. Isn't it wonderful we all live in such a clever country! I'm weeping with joyous relief.
Posted by Rainier, Wednesday, 31 August 2005 10:33:58 PM
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Fellow Human.. welcome back...I'M JEALOUS !
How come u get to go and enjoy all that sun :) While I have to stay here and serve my customers needs... grrrr

I'll address your point about 'which of these values are un-Australian'... none, they are fine. It's not really what is being argued.

My points are specific, and reflect a growing groundwell of opinion on how our own culture is being 'confronted' by various activies and legal moves. Its not the 'Fellow Humans's in the local neighbourhood who we worry about. Its the gangs of Telopea street and those who call their 100s of relatives to storm the police station etc.. (all real events).

On an individual level, as a guest to our home, (but would you eat our food ?) on many levels we can interact in a friendly way.
If you choose to live in the midst of us, not gathering in ghetto's people would hardly notice you all.
My son has a friend who's father and mum are Muslims, but they are the only one's in the street... no biggy. Pretty much no impact on culture. But as soon as the 'Lebanese Muslim ASSOCIATION's' etc etc and the various 'Islamic Councils' start up..and they try to influence our laws and social system.. the flag goes up.

I'm sure you can identify with these, simply by asking how such things would go down in Pakistan or Bangladesh or Saudi Arabia etc if we were doing them. Each time we apply for land for a Church, the Muslims in Malaysia (where they are only 25% in that state) kick up a fuss. The Buddhists don't, the Pharlungong don't, the Hindu's don't.. just the Muslims :)

So.. good question.. if I invited u to my place, and we had roast beef.. would you eat it ? :)
Posted by BOAZ_David, Wednesday, 31 August 2005 11:02:10 PM
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Personally I cannot believe the present transmigration of Muslims across the Globe gives one confidence they can happily assimilate into the local culture.

See what Muslims are doing to the displacement of indiginous citizens in West Papua. They are not enhancing their life just killing them off.

Visit the swimming pools of Hurstville and Homebush and you will see fully clothed Muslim women batheing in contravention to our culture and health laws. They are defiant to observe our laws because they consider they have a religious sanction to be fully clothed.
Posted by Philo, Wednesday, 31 August 2005 11:51:05 PM
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Fellow_Human,

I am glad you love Australia... Now, about that question. Why don't you answer me? Read the Hadith (Bukhari, 52, 261) from the MSA site and tell me if Mohammed was a good man? The Muslim Student Assciation is a big organization at hundreds of campuses. Hardly qualifies as 'funky'! Give it your best shot.

Unconquered. Thank you for your kind comments. Must be hard, but life is a wild ride.

Rossco, it is not a "small minority" of Muslims. Most of them in fact think their laws and customs should supercede ours. Most of them will not even condemn torture! (see above)

About immigration and assimulation. Understand the rules have changed - 100 years ago a family would move and they had to assimulate. Now with multiculturalism, welfare and technology, this is different. A group can live, work, worship and even hate, and live side by side with another group. When people praise past immigration (as in the US or Australia) they are talking about a world that no longer exists. It is like the generals planning for the last war. Things have changed, but the politicians and intellectuals don't know it.

Welfare now makes immigrants independent of work and responsibility. Multiculturalism makes them immune from OFFICIAL criticism and discourages integration. Modern technology means they can live in the West like they never left home (and even eat their favorite Pakistani dishes or watch their favorite Imam in Arabia on TV telling them to hate the infidels). It is a whole new world. The effects of globalism, new communication technology and mass migrations are so many and so deep that they are beyond any individual's understanding. This is a dangerous mixture one day and it will explode. Boom.

I think the future may not be pleasant, but it will be interesting!

PS: Oh yes, about the hajib. I couldn't care less if a Muslimah wears 4 scarfs, 5 veils and 6 burkas, or even if she wants to wear a tent over it all. Not my problem, as long as I can say that I think!

John Kactuz
Posted by kactuz, Thursday, 1 September 2005 5:44:00 AM
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Wre,

I agree with most of your points on need for modernisation, need to be more active in the society and louder in the face of fanaticism. All I am against is the need for me to be apologetic about my faith every time some happens by a group or organisation.

BD,

Was great holiday specially the mount Sinai and St Catherine visit. Thought of you and smiled. I also visited the Moalaqa church in Cairo.
BTW, I will eat your food (I don’t assume I will need a food taster!) as long as it is Kosher compatible.
Average muslim like myself will disagree with a lot of actions/statements coming from the so called muslim associations either by what they broadcast. Unfortunately, we are in a country where any 3 people.

As for muslims ‘doing nothing about fanaticism’ let me share a sad but true story:

Oct or Nov 2002 I was walking the streets of a sydney suburb when I saw a bookshop selling an 'interesting' collection wahabbi style extremism. Browsing the index of the book, I called an Aussie security hotline to report the existence of these book and that they should be banned or at least investigated. Do you know what was the answer of the hotline officer? “ it is a free country and we cannot ban books, thank you for calling!”!

Kaktuz,

First not sure about religious debate point but if you want to debate a faith at least chose the source that is binding to all muslims (ie the Quran). Hadith is neither divine nor binding to muslims and most of it are either weak, non-narrated, questionable source or 200 years later ‘hear, say’. Have a look at www.beliefnet.com. And knock yourself out debating!.
Posted by Fellow_Human, Thursday, 1 September 2005 8:48:09 AM
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Fellow Human,
It is good to hear from you again. I’ve missed your insights into all this nonsense.

So, what’s the answer to the modernisation aspect of Islam? I understand the government are talking about promoting locally raised imams, etc. I wasn’t aware that we didn’t have any. Is this a recent thing due to the recency of greater Islamic immigration? Or just a practice to bring the religious leaders in? Please don’t take this as a sly attack. I would be the first to be open about my feelings. I am just curious. And please, would you mind dropping into the feminism thread? I’d like your take on the current comments over there…

BD, once again, you raise the wrong question. Would you be suspicious or slighted if a vegetarian refused to eat your beef? Or a vegan refused to eat anything other than the vegies? It’s a silly argument to say “you don’t do as I do, so I have a right to be suspicious”. I don’t eat fish – what does that give rise to? I must be an Atlantean. Watch out! He’s obviously here to take over all the land! Your problem is that you see Christianity as the ‘true’ path of the righteous. And you are afraid to accept that it is not the only path. That just might weaken your arguments against a hell of a lot of your other beliefs.
Posted by Reason, Thursday, 1 September 2005 11:19:07 AM
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Hi Reason,

I believe there are local and foreign imams but I guess the need for local imams similar to the US and parts of Europe is the increase of new muslims from local communities. New Aussie or American muslims do not need the middle east conflict history but need the spirituality of the religion. That will also combat the politicisation of the religion.

I did a lot of thinking on the modernisation and there is at least a 10 steps plan in my mind but in summary, the starting points will be:

- Have a single source of information for all muslims rather than each community have their own imam. Imams should come up with an education plan of topics and issues to address nation building. These involve modern day issues either spiritual or worldly (ie views on body parts donation for example).
- Have an organised media plan to address the islamophobia and ‘non-aglo’ phobia in general among average Australians. I have seen few Australian corporate (Including public companies) who still have an ‘Anglo only’ employment policy.
- Create a nation building harmony day event where people will go out share food and say hello to a local neighbour, open the place of worship and compete in the good of nation building.
- Create a nation building / harmony program (ie TV, Radio and Internet, construction projects) where groups can compete for charity, restoring an old school, greening a suburb or a street, etc
(We are a little behind the US in the strength of the sense of community).

As for the feminism thread, I guess I see all people as just people: I am for humanism and moderation. Feminism and other groups are good when they fight for equal rights and recognition but when anything moves out of balance becomes extremism which turns into a cult like anti-humanism. I have no opinion on the homo sexual part of the thread.

Regards
AK
Posted by Fellow_Human, Friday, 2 September 2005 10:38:32 AM
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Fellow human, you appear to be a reasonable person, explain a few things for me.

Why is it that the most muslim owned businesses will not employ non muslims.

Why is it that more than 80-90% of muslims that wear religious clothing are on welfare.

Why, against all medical and scientific data, that states that 97% of muslim women wearing body covering, have many vitamin D deficiencies, causing rickets, osteoporosis and a growing list of ailments that also are effecting their unborn.

Why does you religion promote and in the most part enforce these unhealthy practises.

Regarding modernisation of islam. In the past, the christian faiths forced body coverings on sections of their communities and followers. However they realised in the last 50 years that the subversion of those that professed to be of the faith, was just turning the people away.

Except for within their places of worship it is rare for them to wear their religious clothing and paraphernalia. This has reduced the disdain that the average person had for them and has made their fallacies more acceptable and less confrontational.

If Islam is a good religion and desires to become a more accepted part of our culture, why don't they become modern and do away with these socially unhealthy practices. This would see Australians more accepting and likely to be interested.

Why are muslim women not allowed to talk to men when they are covered, this is but a form of suppression and an insult to Australian males, especially in business. It is disgusting that they just leave their purchase and walk out of a shop when they can't be served by a women.

As long as your religion continues in this vane, you deserve to be looked upon as repressive, dictatorial and evil.

Why is your religion fighting within itself, all around the world.

Understand, I don't condone what has happened in Iraq. I am of the firm belief that Howard, Bush and Blair are war criminals as well as all those that supported them in their actions in Iraq.
Posted by The alchemist, Saturday, 3 September 2005 12:19:34 PM
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Alchemist,
I suggest you only ask one question at a time so it reduces the chance of option choice in answering.

By the way the war in Afganistan is about the Taliban resistance to modernisation of Islam also the war in Iraq is about Sunni resistance to modernisations of Islam to become acceptable to Western society. That is why the West is there to allow these people their right to live rather than be driven out as refugees. So I suggest you clarify your position on whose side you are on in this war. Do you want modernisation or orthodox adherence to shari'ah. You cannot have the Taliban and Sunni and expect modernisation. You cannot have it both ways!
Posted by Philo, Saturday, 3 September 2005 2:10:03 PM
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FELLOW HUMAN

Good :) but my meat would be standard roast beef. The early Christians agreed that they desist from immorality, idolatry and BLOOD. i.e. the issue with blood was its use in idolatrous worship, (drinking it I think). The cows are hung upside down (stunned I think but not dead) then the throat is cut, bleeding them.

Your problem with eating beef slaughtered, should be the issue of connection with idol worship, not whether it has a few molecules of blood in it, which I GUARANTEE Kosher meat does have :) So, a molecule is 'some' k..... don't be imprisoned in a ritualistic lockup dude. Jesus will set you FREEEEEEE Halelujah

If only you knew how much I desire to visit the Holy Land.. (still jealous but coping :)

Ash, put on your list "Adjusting attire to retain modesty but be more compatable to Australian culture" (black burka's are soooo 'in ur face' and unacceptable to me)

Now, HADITH, while I accept 'your' understanding of them as 'stories' etc, you also need to bear in mind that so much of Islamic law is based on them, not just the Quran. So, they are a valid target for non Muslims criticising the religion. In any case, the all time worst atrocity (Banu Qurayza) is alluded to in the Quran also as u know.
Its just that you see some 'legal code' issue there, while I see mass murder.

REASON.. trust you in your rather confined thinking mode to suggest I might be "suspicious" of FellowHuman if he didn't eat my food.. for crying out loud.. u are a worry sometimes.

I hereby send you to an un-named Asian country for 3 weeks 'cultural familiary' to remove your rather parochial views on many things :)

My point, (seems I have to spell it out) was that bridging the gap between Muslims and Non Muslims could start at the dinner table. I'm constantly being criticized for 'what are u DOING to improve relations'.. when I do, I'm attacked for 'being suspicious'.
Posted by BOAZ_David, Saturday, 3 September 2005 3:19:28 PM
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Fellow_Human,

They sure are ganging up on you here!! Hang in there!

Anyway, thank you for your comments. You are right, it's not a religious debate. I prefer history and logic.

The fallacy of your point is that the Hadiths are almost universially accepted by Muslims. Heaven knows there are probably millions of stories and quotes from them on Islamic sites. Even if you don't accept them nothing changes, because a billion Muslims think otherwise.

Of course, if you want to throw out the verses that bother you, you must throw out all the Hadiths - and there goes 80-90% of Islamic history, practices, jurisprudence and tradition out the window. Of course, the Koran states it is itself clear, easy to understand and complete, but even so people can't figure it out. A contradiction, for sure, but even I, a non-Muslim, see the Hadiths as fundamental to understand the Koran and practice Islam.

Lets say, for the sake of arguement, that the verses about torture are false. Don't matter. The followers of the prophet who lived and even knew him, were aware of these verses and it didn't matter to them. The stories about raids, executions, slavery and torture by Mohammud have been in Islamic writings for hundreds of years and they have never bothered Muslims. That tells you alot about the religion.

And last, even if you throw out the Hadiths, and ignore the fact that Muslims ignore the facts of torture, you still have the many problem verses in the Koran advocating killing, violence and discrimination. Another example: Consider the moral implications of a verse in which a man says you can freely have sex with your females slaves. There are about 4 things there that are totally unacceptable there for me. I cannot imagine how anyone could justify that statement. Can you?

See, the problem runs very deep. Muslims just don't want to think about it because they know they won't like the answer.

Take care.

John
Posted by kactuz, Saturday, 3 September 2005 4:31:10 PM
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BD,
"..if I invited u to my place, and we had roast beef.. would you eat it ? :) "

Has nothing to do with bridging a gap and having dialogue. It is a cynical and poor swipe at someone else’s beliefs. Plain and simple.

I’m not going to waste my time with you any longer. Slip and slide along, greasing whatever road you wish with your, how did you phrase it? Narrow mode of thinking. Talk about the proverbial pot!

Maybe one day you will see the damage you do. Then again, probably not.
Posted by Reason, Sunday, 4 September 2005 11:28:43 PM
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Ben,

if you are interested I suggest you take a look at some of the following texts:

Racism, ethnicity and the media / edited by Andrew Jakubowicz ; written by Heather Goodall ... [et al.] St Leonards, N.S.W. : Allen & Unwin, 1994.

Kebabs, kids, cops and crime : youth, ethnicity and crime / by Jock Collins ... [et al.]. Annandale, N.S.W. : Pluto Press, 2000.

Bin Laden in the suburbs : criminalising the Arab other / Scott Poynting ... [et al.]. Sydney, N.S.W. : Sydney Institute of Criminology, 2004.

Against paranoid nationalism : searching for hope in a shrinking society / Ghassan Hage. Annandale, Vic. : Pluto Press, 2003.

Perception is a funny thing Ben, reality is another
Posted by scooper9, Monday, 5 September 2005 6:58:00 PM
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Alchemist,

1. Muslim owned businesses: when it happens its tribalism, if you follow my thread on Egypt, the same is happening among Christians who employ and buy only from Christians. It should have stayed there.
2. 80-90% unemployment: first I would question the 80-90% figure but this is complex issue of diassimilation, and mismanaged multiculturalism on one hand. On the other, there is across the board discrimination in the employment market in Australia.
3. Women & Hijab: some cases of wearing hijab is forced by family but most cases I have seen are women who chose to wear. Most females in my immediate and extended family chose to. I respect their choices either way and it does not make them a better or lesser muslims. The description of Hijab for a person (man or woman) should not wear anything that is too revealing or too transparent. Some women feel safer with the literal translation and chose the head cover as well. Burqa is no related to religion at all.
4. Agree with unhealthy practices but yet again this is something that time and mutual acceptance can resolve. Islam is fairly new to Europe and is escorted by fear given the very nature of Christian heritage of the West and its painting of Islam as the competitive ‘other’. There is a room for a vision, modernisation and integration plans. In fact, it started few years ago with modern interpretation of the meanings of the Quoran but it will take a decade or two to transpire through the whole community.
5. Not sure about vitamins deficit when women cover up or skin cancer when they don’t, it is a personal choice issue. Can’t comment further on this one.
6. Muslims women don’t talk to men: this statement confirms to me that you don’t know any muslim women. They work with other men, they ask for directions in the street. Islam is based on intent of conversing and does not differentiate between a man or a woman.
7. We don’t have more inner struggle, just more media attention.
Posted by Fellow_Human, Wednesday, 7 September 2005 11:22:35 AM
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Fellow human, you approach questions the same way as your religious opposites.

My post stated, “Why are muslim women not allowed to talk to men when they are covered, “. It did not refer to all muslim women on the whole. I was asking about covered women, you avoided it.

Time and mutual acceptance within religion, history shows us the true reality. Religion is for the under evolved, who can't yet grasp the reality of life. They appear to need some form of illusion to give them a reason for life. Without religion you people would have no purpose. Note the daily violence, religious beliefs thrust upon this fragile planet and it inhabitants

Provide one scrap of reality to support your fallacies. Violence and destruction is the only evidence religion can provide. Nothing that would show your beliefs in a positive, acceptable and progressive light.

You all talk up the greatness and goodness of your beliefs, but you all run like hell, when you have to prove that what you believe has been anything but violent, destructive and down right disgusting expressions in its treatment of life here.

All religions refuse to accept the historical facts of what they have done on this planet.

The mantra of all religions of the world. Breed, conquer, destroy. Not fallacy, but fact after fact. Look at every place in the world, that is controlled or being infiltrated by religion and you will see the consequences

You failed to answer why the religious of the world, spend their time killing, if not others then themselves. A very good example of the reality of the destructive myths that you all follow.

I for one, certainly will sit up an listen, if you can explain these realities and not just bury yourselves in deranged wrath.

How religion has interacted on this planet throughout history is all the proof necessary to explain, describe and understand what it is about. As you represent your god, and are in the image of your god, so you all have succeeded in reflecting what your god represents
Posted by The alchemist, Wednesday, 7 September 2005 12:36:34 PM
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