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The Forum > Article Comments > The 2016 census: whence the church? > Comments

The 2016 census: whence the church? : Comments

By Peter Sellick, published 4/7/2017

It is about time that the Church realises that the end of the Church as we knew it has arrived and that we cannot go on as before.

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Not without the utmost resistance, diver dan.

<<Christianity is a complicated animal, but it keeps on keeping on, in spite of its surroundings.>>

Christianity has always caved when not doing so would mean the end of it. There aren’t too many churches around anymore that will openly denounce divorce or shun divorced people, for example.

<<Reformation starts from a radical and powerful base of simple (evangelical) belief.>>

That sounds somewhat tautological, but okay. So what? How do you know Jesus said or did anything the Bible claims he did?

<<If the sinner, in this case the homosexual, refuses to repent of that sin, there is no forgiveness.>>

Why should they be expected to repent for the way your god made them? You do realise that, according to Christian theology, God made gay people the way they are, don't you? (Isaiah 44:24, Isaiah 45:7)

<<He simple remains cannon fodder in the great battle raging between good and evil!>>

How is homosexuality in any way evil?
Posted by AJ Philips, Wednesday, 5 July 2017 11:08:29 PM
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Questions, questions AJP

*Christianity has always caved when not doing so would mean the end of it.*

agree...but Christianity is not one part, but many! The part that has folded is the "liberal" arm, a weak part associated with this author. You were correct above to point out its arrogance and treatment with contempt towards those in the pews..(re your utube post).

*How do you know Jesus said or did anything the Bible claims he did?*
how do you know Jesus actually ever existed? There is no evidence. Christ is the head of a belief "system". It requires a simple faith to believe in it!

*(Isaiah 44:24, Isaiah 45:7)*
You quote from a book in which you have ceased to believe in! Why do you presume I believe in it?

Homosexuality exists, agreed. I and others have a personal contempt towards it, from a base similar to your own, which does believe in it. A belief system based on personal choice!

The strength of Christianity lies in its evangelicals. Historically they rise from the bottom, and usually against liberalism and corruption in its Christian ranks!
Posted by diver dan, Thursday, 6 July 2017 7:11:54 AM
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diver dan,

Yes, well, if you’re going to make a lot of unfounded assertions, they’re going to attract a lot of questions.

<<The part [of Christianity] that has folded is the "liberal" arm, a weak part associated with this author.>>

They all “fold” eventually. Some sections are just slower than others - generally, the less educated ones. For example, I’m not aware of any denominations that still support slavery. Views on homosexuality will likely go the same way.

<<how do you know Jesus actually ever existed? There is no evidence.>>

I don’t know that. In fact, I have argued, on numerous occasions in the past, that the evidence for an historical Jesus is scant and unreliable. But you were speaking with the assumption that he had existed, so I went with that for the moment.

<<Christ is the head of a belief "system".>>

Well, I’m not sure what the quotation marks are about but, otherwise, you have no argument from me there.

<<[Christianity] requires a simple faith to believe in it!>>

Yes, and the less simplistic the faith becomes, the further the Christian strays from the Bible.

<<You quote from a book in which you have ceased to believe in!>>

Yes, because the book is the ultimate authority in Christianity. The Bible will always remain valid to at least that extent.

<<Why do you presume I believe in it?>>

I didn’t, necessarily. But, again, we were talking about Christianity, and the Bible is the ultimate authority there. Whether it is all nonsense was a side issue.

<<I and others have a personal contempt towards [homosexuality], …>>

“Personal contempt” just looks like another way to say “unjustified” or “irrational”, to me.

<<… from a base similar to your own, which does believe in it. A belief system based on personal choice!>>

No, my position on this topic is based on evidence and reasoned argument, not personal choice.

<<Historically [evangelicals] rise from the bottom, and usually against liberalism and corruption in its Christian ranks!>>

I'm not aware of any examples there. You certainly can't be talking about slavery or evolution.
Posted by AJ Philips, Thursday, 6 July 2017 10:41:20 AM
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AJP..

looks good with the exception of the last statement viz.

*I'm not aware of any examples there. You certainly can't be talking about slavery or evolution.*

Example...The election of Donald Trump. Without evangelical Christian support, no Donald Trump as US President...that is a significant achievement for evangelical Christianity..

Black Queen to white bishop three ...check!
Posted by diver dan, Thursday, 6 July 2017 11:41:54 AM
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diver dan,

So your example of evangelicals rising up against liberalism and corruption, within Christianity, is the election of Trump? How is that so? The US government is a secular institution and is constitutionally separated from religion.

We were talking about change and reformation WITHIN Christianity. After all, you did say:

“Historically [evangelicals] rise from the bottom, and usually against liberalism and corruption in its Christian ranks!” (http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=19136#340456)

With, “in its Christian ranks”, being the operative words.

If you now just want to talk about the more fundamentalist evangelicals having more power and influence over politics and society in general than their more liberal brethren, then sure, you could probably find many examples of that.

In fact, such examples would only serve to demonstrate my point earlier about sophisticated theists being a tiny minority, despite what sophisticated theists themselves claim, or their well-intentioned atheist apologists.
Posted by AJ Philips, Thursday, 6 July 2017 12:34:04 PM
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AJP ..

Now you shuffle cards!
I'm discussing the political influence of Christian evangelicals. There are multiple spheres of influence.

Interestingly, Scott Morrison is an evangelical Christian.
Question in his case is; is he one of the minority left wing evangelicals. I have no idea what his view on gay marriage is, I'd be interested to know, but gay marriage is not accepted by the majority right wing.

Your still in check!
Posted by diver dan, Thursday, 6 July 2017 4:23:56 PM
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