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The Forum > Article Comments > Reviving Israeli-Palestinian talks now will go nowhere > Comments

Reviving Israeli-Palestinian talks now will go nowhere : Comments

By Alon Ben-Meir, published 19/5/2017

Trump's over-simplification of the conflict suggests he has no clue about what it would take to make peace and why the mere resumption of peace talks is dead on arrival.

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For god's sake, nobody mention brain surgery to Trump or let him anywhere near a hospital.
Posted by Loudmouth, Friday, 19 May 2017 10:02:42 AM
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There will never be peace between Palestine and Israel. Palestine wants to wipe Israel off the map. Trump has enough trouble bring about peace in the U.S without whipping Middle East dead horses. It's been tried and tried by better diplomats and negotiators than Trump, and peace will never be achieved.

“Distrust: The pervasive and mutual distrust cannot be assuaged through negotiation, nor dispelled by simply agreeing to begin to trust one another-it is a process that must be nurtured.”

Therefore, there is no point in even uttering the word 'peace'. End of story.
Posted by ttbn, Friday, 19 May 2017 10:17:37 AM
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Hi Ttbn,

Yes, as long as Hamas and the Palestine Authority and Wahhabism and Sunni Islam and Islam generally all claim that, once land becomes Muslim, it remains Muslim forever, then nobody can seriously and honestly claim to allow Israel to exist otherwise. The destruction of Israel, and more crudely of all Jews, will never be off the agenda as long as Islam retains this fascist principle.

But the Palestine-Israel dilemma will remain a side-show in the current Middle East, there are far bigger issues at stake, and pending: once the battle to exterminate the ISIS Islamo-fascists has been temporarily won, the struggles between the Saudis and the Turks over control of Sunni-majority Syria, and simultaneously between Sunni and Shia Islam along their respective N-S and E-W axes, will resume. Not to mention the war between the Turks and the Kurds.

Kurds ? Thirty million. Palestinians ? Five million. Palestine is a mere side-show, until all those other conflicts are resolved.

Cheers,

Joe
Posted by Loudmouth, Friday, 19 May 2017 10:36:44 AM
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There will only be peace when America and the rest of the world draws the line, no consultations, and tell Israel and the Palestinians: "You stay on this side", "You stay on that side", "Off to bed right now, no more fighting or I come with a big broom".
Posted by Yuyutsu, Friday, 19 May 2017 3:59:19 PM
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Hate to have to say this Alon, but you as ever, seem to be overstating the blindingly obvious?
Nothing more to add. except, and this encapsulates the Israeli under Nethanyahu, effort to date?
One fine day in the middle of the night.
two dead men got up to fight.
Back to back they faced each other,
drew their swords and shot each other. (Anon.)

Alan B.
Posted by Alan B., Friday, 19 May 2017 4:39:22 PM
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That there can be change, and that there are positive
alternatives is evident; all we need is the right
leadership for us to find and take direction.
Unfortunately, we currently don't have it.

Maurice Strandgard argued back in 1989:

"Somewhere there must be a place
Called Little Peace
Where men with little humanity
Do not have the power
To make great decisions.
Where little fears do not lessen
The so small span
Of our lives,
Where
For once
We can know peace,
Just a little.
To know the taste of it."
Posted by Foxy, Friday, 19 May 2017 8:04:00 PM
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Hi Yuyutsu, is that going to solve the problem by just telling each of them to stay in their boundary? Well, i hope this helps.
Posted by rollyczar, Saturday, 20 May 2017 4:17:27 AM
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Hi Foxy, i think a proper leadership is the most important thing to achieve peace as you said.
Posted by rollyczar, Saturday, 20 May 2017 4:25:34 AM
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Hello rollyC.,

Antony Loewenstein in his book, "My Israel Question"
sums things up rather well when he argues that:

"...Neither side has a monopoly on suffering, but only
one side has the power to end the occupation and to
recognise that Israel and Palestine are historically
destined to share the same homeland."

As long as the US keeps on supporting Israel this is
not going to happen anytime soon.
Posted by Foxy, Saturday, 20 May 2017 4:52:43 PM
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Dearest Foxy,

I think it's vastly more complicated than that: every player in this story wants the lot, nobody is prepared to give anything, and they can't be seen to show the slightest sign of 'weakness', in other words, make any concession.

Each side believes that the land of the entire area belong to them alone, because it says so in their respective 'holy' books. That goes to the very core of what it means to be Jewish or Muslim, and will as long as their books stay unrevised.

I agree with Loewenstein, that sooner or later, the only solution is a single State, perhaps with some sort of agreement on both sides that the land belongs to ALL Jews and ALL Muslims simultaneously, and not exclusively, since after all, they are all the sons and daughters of Abraham.

Maybe that's easy for me to say, being an atheist, maybe I don't understand the inherently exclusivist nature of their beliefs, and from both their points of view, I'm just a dill. Well, maybe I am anyway. [Yeah, that would make a lot of sense]. But why should the rest of the world back either side if that's their position, i.e. that to back one side is to exclude the other from any rights in the area at all ?

In Ignazio Silone's wonderful book of about 1934, 'Fontamara', two villages argue about the division of water from a stream: the local politician decides to give each village three-quarters of the water rights, and they all go away happy. Maybe that might not work in this situation, but the expulsion of one group or the other is hardly justice either.

Lots of love,

Joe
Posted by Loudmouth, Saturday, 20 May 2017 6:25:23 PM
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Dear Joe,

The major political parties in Israel have essentially
supported the massive expansion of the settlements.
Mass confiscation of land, acts of collective
punishment, arrest without trial and house demolitions
are the norm. Virtually every Geneva convention related to
areas under occupation has been abused. The majority of the
Israeli population accept the rationale that the West Bank and
Gaza belong to the Jewish people and could never be given
back to the Palestinian people.

All I can suggest for you is to get a hold of Antony
Loewenstein's book, "My Israel Question." It may clarify
a few things in one of the most important debates of our
times.

See you on another discussion.
Posted by Foxy, Saturday, 20 May 2017 6:50:15 PM
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Dear Foxy,

Well, yeah, that's what I was getting at. On the other side, the PA and Hamas have declared, perhaps one might say rhetorically, but maybe not, that all Jews should be pushed into the sea, and that all of current Israel belongs forever to Islam.

I can see their point: after all, Muhammad flew there on a winged horse with a woman's face on the night he died, in order to get to Jacob's Ladder, the recognised Jewish way to get into Heaven. Therefore it's all Muslim, forever. Yeah, that makes sense. If a Muslim goes into a fish and chip shop, that shop is thereafter forever Muslim. There's some logic to that, I suppose.

i.e. the bottom line is that BOTH sides claim ALL of the area.

So yes, as Loewenstein suggests, ultimately they have to put such religious foolishness behind them, modify their belief systems and share the country.

Anyway, there are vastly more important issues, even just in the Middle East: defeating ISIS, giving the Kurds (30 million of them) some form of autonomy or independence, assuring minority groups such as Yazidis and Mandeans and Turcomans and Assyrians and Samaritans and Druses and Azeris and god-knows-how-many-others, assurances of non-discrimination.

Love,

Joe
Posted by Loudmouth, Saturday, 20 May 2017 7:46:16 PM
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Dear Joe,

«ultimately they have to put such religious foolishness behind them»

Foolishness - certainly, but it has everything to do with nationalism and nothing to do with religion.

Going to heaven is probably the most foolish thing to do. If there indeed was such a ladder there, then I would cordon it from all sides to prevent fools from trapping themselves in heaven. Jews on the other hand are not interested in heaven - but in meat. They want that same place so they can re-establish there the world's biggest slaughter-house.

If it was up to me, then I would store all the world's nuclear waste on that hill, so it becomes like Chernobyl and Fukushima where no fools can enter.

I fully agree with your list of priorities!
Posted by Yuyutsu, Saturday, 20 May 2017 9:28:46 PM
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Dear Joe,

You really do need to read Loewenstein's book
to get the full picture.
Posted by Foxy, Saturday, 20 May 2017 11:11:41 PM
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I find Lowenstein's philosophy childishly naive. His suggestions that Israel pulls back to the 1967 borders as a prelude to negotiations is a complete joke, as concessions in the past by Israel have never yielded any improvement in behaviour of the Arabs. Israel has always been prepared to trade land for peace, as they did with Egypt after yet another unprovoked attack in 1973. The Arabs can create an independent state, but both parties need to sit at a table without preconditions.

In the meantime the US will continue supporting the only democratic country in the Middle east whilst terrorist groups Hamas and Hezbollah try to destroy it.
Posted by Shadow Minister, Sunday, 21 May 2017 6:20:51 AM
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It is ironic that Western governments and the vast
majority of the Western media elite solidly support
Israel and its "security" measures against the
Palestinians, yet Zionist lobbyists still argue that
only complete obedience is acceptable.

"One would think", writes an Israeli journalist
" that Israel was not a nuclear regional
superpower possessing the fourth most powerful army
in the world, but a shaky sanctuary where Jews are
annihilated by the thousands every day."

Irael's treatment of the Palestinians has been nothing
short of shameful. Israel's legitimacy is now in doubt.
The response should not simply be to label critics as
antisemites but to begin focusing on justice for both
Israelis and Palestinians and not just on military might.

The Jewish state can only ignore world opinion for so
long.
Posted by Foxy, Sunday, 21 May 2017 2:13:49 PM
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Dearest Foxy,

Turkey's treatment of Kurds has been nothing short of shameful.

Assad's treatment of the Sunni majority has been nothing short of shameful.

Pakistan's treatment of Shi'ites has been nothing short of shameful.

Indonesia's treatment of ethnic Chinese hs been nothing short of shameful.

Sudan's treatment of South Sudanese has been nothing short of shameful.

Egypt's treatment of Copts has been nothing short of shameful.

Duterte's treatment of the poor in the Philippines has been nothing short of shameful.

Every one of those oppressed groups number in the TENS of millions.

Welcome to the world, Foxy :)

Love,

Joe
Posted by Loudmouth, Sunday, 21 May 2017 5:53:54 PM
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Dear Joe,

So what you're saying by your litany of listed
abuses around the world - that it's OK for
Israel to continue with their abuse of the
Palestinian people.

Shame on you.
Posted by Foxy, Sunday, 21 May 2017 6:34:48 PM
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Dearest Foxy,

I'm not sure how you leap from what I wrote to your claim. Of course, where and if and when Israel mistreats Palestinians, then it should be condemned - just as you might condemn all those other cases of mistreatment that I listed. Well, I'm presuming you would - am I wrong :)

Probably as a last resort, I expect that, if Hamas ever started bombarding Israel with thousands of random rockets again, that Israel might be tempted to go back on its commitment to give over the Gaza Strip to the Palestinian Authority. No, maybe not, it would then become their headache again, not the PA's.

Still, it's all a minor issue compared to those I listed, and one which won't ever be resolved until almost all of the other, more important, issues in the Middle East are.

Love,

Joe
Posted by Loudmouth, Sunday, 21 May 2017 7:53:51 PM
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Dear Foxy, sorry to take issue with your summation of Joe's analysis. But any FAIR reading of his comments, wouldn't be able to draw your emotive (guilty M'Lord) conclusions.

In any event, most of what he was identifying has its foundation in just a few individuals and pernicious problematic mindsets?

Be it a Kurd killing Turkish tyrant, the assassinating Ayatollah, Nut-job Nethanyahu, the executing Egyptian President, the autocratic shoot first Filipino President, the risible rocket launching Russian President, the, short of a few baskets for the picnic, slithering slimy Syrian dictator, the Korean kamikaze criminal?

Or even Mr twittering tragic (never in the course of human history has a madman been so maligned by a mischief making muckraking media) Trump?

And given you impugned Joe, I believe, with quite deliberate, out of character, misrepresentation, shame on you.
Without bias, Alan B.
Posted by Alan B., Sunday, 21 May 2017 8:06:39 PM
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Hi Alan,

Go easy on Foxy, she's a good person at heart :)

Cheers,

Joe
Posted by Loudmouth, Sunday, 21 May 2017 10:48:01 PM
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Dear Alan,

My response was to Joe's post and the way he
brushed aside the Israeli-Palestinian conflict
which is the topic of this discussion.
Joe has a history of diversion if
he does not agree with what is being said.
I stand by what I wrote.
Posted by Foxy, Monday, 22 May 2017 9:05:17 AM
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Dearest Foxy,

No, I didn't brush aside the Israeli-Palestine dilemma, I merely tried to put it into some more realistic context. I hope that it can be resolved in my lifetime, but it will have to get to the back of a very long queue. Even so, I don't think Israel will be pushed into the sea just yet, so that's probably not going to be part of any 'solution'.

If I were Israel, I would be slightly worried about Trump slipping hundreds of billions dollars' worth of the latest weaponry to the Saudis. How much will end up in the hands of a re-formed ISIS ? How much will contribute to a much bigger war between the Sunnis, led by a re-armed Saudi Arabia, and Shi'ite Iran, or even a possibility of war between the Saudis and Turkey, for imperial dominance, i.e. an extension of the Syrian War across all of the West Asian Middle East ? And how long do you think that might go on for ?

And in that one, the Israel-Palestine dilemma will shrink in comparative significance for another few decades. I don't like that idea any more than you do, but that's seems to be how events might pan out.

Love always,

Joe
Posted by Loudmouth, Monday, 22 May 2017 10:13:15 AM
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Dear Joe,

I am glad to hear that you also want to see justice
done for both the Palestinians as well as Israel.
The anti-Muslim stances that you've displayed in
some of your posts I got the impression that you simply
did not like Muslims. As far as the Israeli-Palestinian
conflict is concerned as Palestinian politician Hanan
Ashrawi has explained - that current Israeli thinking is
inevitably leading to disaster.

"Now is the time for the US, for the international community,
the Quartet, to stand up and say, this is not finished.
Israel does not have the right to act unilaterally, it
does not have the right to wreak havoc and destroy
prospects for a peaceful solution."

Israel has been calling
the shots since 1967, always without Palestinian consultation,
and clearly believes that the USA will support its attempts
to establish 'final borders' Sadly, once again, the
international community places a higher value on Israel's
vision of its historic destiny than on the humanity of the
Palestinians.

See you on another discussion.
Posted by Foxy, Monday, 22 May 2017 11:40:56 AM
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The pro palestinian bleeding hearts constantly exhort Israel to take action such as reducing its security, and conceding land without applying any pressure on Hamas to forgo its attacks on Israel or even recognise the right of Israel to exist.

There is no security action that Israel has taken that is not in response to hostile action from the Palestinians, and if there is to be any movement then Hamas needs to be subject at least to the same scrutiny that Israel is.

The fact that the plight of the Arabs in Gaza is more to do with their treatment by Hamas than Israel.
Posted by Shadow Minister, Monday, 22 May 2017 12:52:59 PM
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I wonder what would happen if all the countries and organisations surrounding Israel stated their acceptance of the rights of Israelis to live in peace and their acceptance of the right of Israel to exist?

Given Israel's technological and manufacturing skills, I reckon that not only would there be peace but the standard of living of all involved would be higher.

As I see it, the existence of the state of Israel serves the leaders of the millions around it as a convenient way of distracting attention from the incompetent, sectarian kleprocrats leading those millions.
Posted by Brian of Buderim, Monday, 22 May 2017 1:12:29 PM
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Dear Shadow Minister,

As cited many times in the past -

" The Kadima vision is of a concrete wall, with Jews
on one side and as many Arabs as possible on the other.
Sooner or later, Israel and the Palestinians will have to
meet face-to-face, listen to each other's grievances and
negotiate with honesty. Only then - and on the conditions
that BOTH Israel and Palestinian state achieve safety and
security - will this conflict be resolved. Neither side
has a monopoly on suffering, but only ONE party has the
power to end the occupation and to recognise that Israel
and Palestine are historically destined to share the same
homeland."
(Antony Loewenstein).
Posted by Foxy, Monday, 22 May 2017 3:58:44 PM
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Foxy,

You do keep quoting the same text with capitals included. What it includes is a bit of fact a bit of fiction finished off with a swirl of AL's opinion.

1 "The Kadima vision is of a concrete wall, with Jews on one side and as many Arabs as possible on the other." a bit of AL's opinion. The wall is a necessary evil. The number of terrorist incursions has dropped off sharply after the installation of the walls.

2."Sooner or later, Israel and the Palestinians will have to meet face-to-face, listen to each other's grievances and negotiate with honesty." True, applies equally to both parties.

3 "Neither side has a monopoly on suffering, but only ONE party has the power to end the occupation.." True, but only one party has the power to stop unprovoked rocket and terrorist attacks. Again both parties have to give ground.

4 "...and to recognise that Israel and Palestine are historically destined to share the same homeland." False both parties need to recognise this starting with Hamas who as yet refuses to recognise Israel.

The PLO and Hamas have to recognise that Israel is only going to release any occupied territory in exchange for concessions. The precondition that the Arabs have set that Israel withdraws completely will simply mean that nothing happens.

Maybe it will take another 50 years.
Posted by Shadow Minister, Tuesday, 23 May 2017 3:47:50 PM
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“...There is no security action that Israel has taken that is not in response to hostile action from the Palestinians..”

The first Intifada is yet another example of an 122 year old Zionist quest to subjugate Palestine. They have zero intention of negotiating a fair and just peace deal with the Palestinians. With the PLO neutralised and its leadership exiled far away in Tunis, with Hamas still in its embryonic stage, how did the Israelis deal with this civilian led campaign of civil disobedience? Did it attempt to negotiate with the Unified Leadership of the Uprising, (UNLU)? No it did not. First live ammunition; after international outrage then broken bones; after more international outrage then rubber bullets. There was no security threat from a civilian uprising emanating from the constant oppression of an occupying force. It was a chance to forge a new beginning with a new generation of leaders. It was a chance smashed by an iron fist. Israel, the 21st century Soviets, even down to building a wall.
Posted by Anti-Colonial, Wednesday, 24 May 2017 9:03:05 AM
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