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The Forum > Article Comments > It shouldn’t be Australia’s job to liberalise Muslims > Comments

It shouldn’t be Australia’s job to liberalise Muslims : Comments

By Gary Johns, published 26/4/2017

The struggle over the soul of Islam in Australia is taking place in the mosques, in the universities and in public life.

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Joe
I was talking about being constructive and not inciting violence. Good people of all faiths and non-faith just want to make a future that is safe for their children and community. Join us.
Posted by grateful, Sunday, 28 May 2017 9:15:43 PM
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Grateful,

By implicitly opposing free speech ? Otherwise why mention it, why link it to something as vile as white supremacism ?

'People of good faith' would honestly criticise evil wherever it occurs and from whatever source it comes. You've failed that test already.

Joe
Posted by Loudmouth, Sunday, 28 May 2017 10:45:30 PM
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Joe
I support free speech more than you. I believe people should be able to put their views and make the case for an idea, and in return expect their argument to be vigorously examined and critiqued.

Freedom of expression should not be used by those power and influence to inflict personal harm: having them sacked from their job or inciting some nutter to violence. The result can lead to deaths of innocents.

You don't oppose hate speech of Wahabbi clerics which has lead to this week's violence. I do.

Being an admirer of Trump, you fully support the massive aid package recently signed with Saudi Arabia which will empower them to spread their creed. I do.

You would support the 'free speech' inciting violence that preceded the genocide in Rawanda: between 500k and 1m killed.

Naturally, Adolf Hitler was merely exercising his freedom of speech when he described Jews as vermin. You would support this. I wouldn't.

So we disagree. I think the abuse of free speech should be called out. Like I said before, "What ever happened to "the right to express opinions with which other people may disagree" without fear of retribution"

Here is an example of how I think our society should be calling out the abuse of free speech. Consider the following statement (of yours)

....
continued
Posted by grateful, Monday, 29 May 2017 12:30:40 PM
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...continue

"Maybe one bright light in this ghastly mess is that, once they have come to Australia, Muslims may feel much more free to actually read the Koran, and discover how truly barbaric it is. Many may become literate for the first time. Of course, much of the Koran may be hyperbole and flowery puff, but there is so much in it, almost wherever you look, that it is not only inevitably craven and total-suck-hole as in most religious books, but extremely violent, as if some god would wish his or her followers to be like that."

I think this statement is pure bigotry. Perhaps I'm wrong. Prove me wrong. support your argument and prove me wrong and by offering the following evidence:

1. the education levels of Muslim immigrants and the educational attainment of their children (relative to other groups, including the Anglos)

2. evidence of the Qur'an being "hyperbole and flowery puff" and "extremely violent as if some god would wish his or her followers to be like that."

As for your statement:
'People of good faith' would honestly criticise evil wherever it occurs and from whatever source it comes. You've failed that test already.

This is desperate. Just refer to my previous posts. I call out evil whether it is perpetrated by Muslims or non-Muslims.

All you can offer is personal abuse. Have you got anything intelligent to say; something that we can all learn from?
Posted by grateful, Monday, 29 May 2017 12:34:37 PM
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Grateful,

If you think I admire Trump, you don't understand satire. But I agree with you about his selling of $ 150 billion worth of armaments to the Saudis and the Wahhabis, since clearly they will use them against Iran, and probably funnel some through to ISIS, or its next re-incarnation. Perhaps Trump is hoping the entire Muslim world will turn on each other, over the next few decades. No, I think he is n utterly horrible person in every way.

I noticed in my little list of atrocities over the past week (I haven't up-dated it for today) that none of them seemed (perhaps I'm wrong) to be committed by non-Muslims. So let's call it as we see it. When Buddhist or Christian or Hindu terrorists commit some vile act, we should describe it as such. No rubbish about loners, or people with mental conditions - if people use their holy books to justify what they are doing, then that's what they are doing, nobody is putting words into their mouths.

So some thug who supports white supremacism killed two innocent people - we should describe him as such. And if al Qa'ida kills 30 Christians in Egypt, we should say so, and that they were indeed al Qa'ida, and that they commit yet another atrocity in the name of Islam. They waved a flag around with the shahada on it.

If some bunch of fascist Christians waved a flag around with "The Lord is my shepherd" on it, and killed thirty innocent Muslims, then we should say so, and describe them for what they are: Christian terrorists. IF and WHEN it happens. But there a bit thin on the ground.

Free speech in a country like Australia

[TBC]
Posted by Loudmouth, Monday, 29 May 2017 1:53:12 PM
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[continued]

Free speech in a country like Australia permits, even demands, that we speak the truth about terrorism. Currently, even in Australia, let alone France or Britain or Egypt or Somalia or Iraq, etc. etc., those doing the killing, do it in the name of Allah. Does Allah condone such vile behaviour ? Yes ? No ? How could a god possibly approve of the brutal murder of innocent people ? And please don't give us guff about 'We can't know the mind of Allah' either.

I admit that I'm on very weak ground with that last observation: the Koran, the very word of Allah, never to be changed, sanctions precisely the murder of innocents, provided they are not Muslim, the Jews in Mecca, for instance: the men killed, 400 of them beheaded, the children sold into slavery and the women into sex slavery.

Strange how so little changes in 1400 years. Well, some may conclude, if it worked then, it will probably work now. It's the task of every decent Australian, every decent person in the world, to prove them wrong.

Joe
Posted by Loudmouth, Monday, 29 May 2017 1:55:11 PM
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