The National Forum   Donate   Your Account   On Line Opinion   Forum   Blogs   Polling   About   
The Forum - On Line Opinion's article discussion area



Syndicate
RSS/XML


RSS 2.0

Main Articles General

Sign In      Register

The Forum > Article Comments > Australian brothels and sexual slavery > Comments

Australian brothels and sexual slavery : Comments

By Vicki Dunne, published 10/10/2005

Vicki Dunne argues Australia's attitude to sexual servitude is not based on humanitarian principles.

  1. Pages:
  2. 1
  3. 2
  4. 3
  5. ...
  6. 6
  7. 7
  8. 8
  9. All
"(only a middle-aged male politician could possibly think)"

Only a middle-aged female could possibly think like this.

The author makes her sexist male stereotyping remarks (which seem to be well accepted by OLO), and then expects readers to accept the rest of her article as being true and unbiased.

Exactly how many “sex slaves” are there in Australia? This would be a very relevant question.

I remember such an issue in the past, where an organisation said that there were “sex slaves” in Australia. The governments response was basically that they couldn’t find any, but if someone knew of them, then report the matter to the police (as the activity is illegal).

However, I have not heard of any such reports being made to the police, and how much about sex slaves in Australia is a myth, and how much is true and accurate, is now quite relevant.
Posted by Timkins, Monday, 10 October 2005 1:11:16 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Rather than follow the US or Italy in addressing this issue it would seem we are following the UK as this report indicates
http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/crime/article318227.ece

Timkins, you would be naive to think we don't have a problem here just because you can't see it. As indicated in the article it is difficult to get the women involved because they are at risk. The operators are not going to dob themselves in.

I strongly suspect this is an area which leaves itself open to bribery and corruption involving police and Immigration officials, perhaps also migration agents.
Posted by rossco, Monday, 10 October 2005 3:33:15 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
It sounds as if sexual servitude would be an excellent punishment for crime in our society, and could act as an effective deterrent against a myriad of criminal activities, being more humiliating even than the lash. Would this be the same as penal servitude?
Posted by plerdsus, Monday, 10 October 2005 4:03:54 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Wouldn't it be penile servitude?
Posted by anomie, Monday, 10 October 2005 4:09:40 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Roscco,
I have rarely seen an article written by a female on some social issue, that does not attempt to malign or stereotype the male gender in someway. This article does that, and nearly every other article written by a female author does the same, and one has to now consider, if what they are writting about requires serious attention, or are they simply making up stories so as to malign and stereotype the male gender.

The author seems to have some detailed knowledge of “sex slavery”. How much of this is occurring in Australia is the unknown. But if the author knows specific details of it occurring, then the matter should be reported to the police. If the police do nothing about it, then she has a case, and as a Parliamentarian in the ACT, she could even give specific details in Parliament.

However spreading rumours does not help solve social issues.
Posted by Timkins, Monday, 10 October 2005 4:17:24 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Timkins
So what you are saying is this article would need to be written by a male before you would believe it! What a joke. Get over your sexual hang ups if you want to be taken seriously.
Posted by rossco, Monday, 10 October 2005 5:11:07 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Vicki

Thank you for your article.

If, what you say is true, this is an apalling situation.

You seemm to a lot about it, so as a parliamentarian, why haven't you done something about it?

Good posts Rossco.

Cheers
Kay
Posted by kalweb, Monday, 10 October 2005 6:46:55 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
I don't know if anyone else picked up the obvious philosophical issue in the article which is of CRUCIAL importance for the whole area of the 'make-it-up-as-u-go' morality crowd.

It was the bit about women not being allowed to refuse employment EVEN IN THE SEX industry ! (Germany) So.. here is how the flow goes.

1/ Make some previously illegal behavior 'legal'.
2/ Now that its 'legal' there is no reason not to regard it as any other 'occupation'.
3/ Women can now be 'legally' degraded.

There is no reason whatsoever that this logic cannot be applied in Australia or any secular society. At least not on philosophical or legal grounds.

I hope it comes as no surprise that 'bible bashers' like me, immediately pick up on this and point all of us to the need for a more authoritative and enduring foundation for our society.

As Christ said "He who hears my words and DOES them... is like a man who built his house on a rock. The storms and wind came but it remained firm"

The other side of that coin, which he also pointed out "He who hears my words and does NOT do them, is like a man who built his house on sand... the wind came.. and the storm, and great was the destruction etc"

Is it not obvious that when we (through the legislature) can force women to be sex slaves, there is something terribly terribly WRONG with our social foundations ?

I would actually have some doubts about the articles claim of Asian women coming as described. There are oodles of volunteers just itching to get to first world countries from China. Immigration checks would put a stop to the practice. Its VERY hard for a single phillipino girl to get into Australia.
Posted by BOAZ_David, Monday, 10 October 2005 7:49:52 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Vicki Dunne is a Canberra Liberal, and was a public servant from 1979 to 1995 I read on the internet. I mustn't have been reading the papers too closely recently, but I somehow never thought that one of Howard's troops would care about human rights. Apparently there is hope yet, if you are female that is. Although, if you are Asian looking and Australian, you might still get deported ... And we all know what happens to Liberals that bring up mail order brides. Et tu, John?
Posted by MX, Monday, 10 October 2005 9:56:56 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
As a brothel worker for the past 23 years (on and off so to speak!) I thought you might like to know some antidotal facts.
- there is no distinction made between sex workers who visit Australia to work and those who decide to work after visiting. I have worked with many "Asian" and "European" women who have been brought up in Australia and choose to work but find themselves caught up in the "migrant" net,
- if I had a choice of slaving for a pittance in bad conditions or being taken to Australia for work in the sex industry for a couple of years where I can take my lifetime income home with me, I know what I would choose,
- yes, there is organised crime by the triads but it is not as large as some would make it out to be, but what exists is really bad, it also (at least in Queensland) preys on private sex workers who have very limited english language skills and community networks,
- most of the women comming to Australia for sex work know what they are getting into and most get the choice to go home or stay and apply for visa when their tenure runs out,
- for all the talk about "rescuing the poor women" why not work on getting rid of the crime so we can go about earning a living. Alot of us actually like our jobs, both migrant and aussie alike!
Posted by princes' rule, Tuesday, 11 October 2005 12:26:14 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Kalweb, I'd like to know how you think a politician does their work. Vicki's moved a motion at the Liberal Party's Federal Conference (which was apparently passed unanimously) and now she's promoting a petition on this site which will be presented by two other Liberals (Bruce Baird and Gary Humphries) in the Federal Parliament. Looks like some pretty heavy lifting to me!

The petition is at http://petitions.nationalforum.com.au/petitions.asp?id=3. If you agree with her, you might give it a push.

BTW, we are interested in petitions in all sorts of issues, so if anyone knows of any other hardworking politicians, or community activists who could use this site, send them my email.
Posted by GrahamY, Tuesday, 11 October 2005 1:50:56 PM
Find out more about this user Visit this user's webpage Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Graham

Thank you for your post and thanks for the link to the poll. I have read and signed it.

Cheers
Kay
Posted by kalweb, Tuesday, 11 October 2005 2:30:35 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Rossco,
You are naïve.
You are a joke.
You have sexual hang ups.
You should not be taken seriously.

There is an enormous amount of women’s media, but it has become some of the most unreliable media in existence.

Even women involved in producing that media have come forward and stated that most of women’s media is largely fictional (see Spin Sister:- (http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2004/10/04/1096871810709.html?from=storylhs)
It is filled with anecdote, gossip, and exaggeration. Often articles are written on the spot with the most minimal research being undertaken beforehand, and that media is usually written to a formula designed to make women feel continuously ”victimised” and “oppressed ” (normally by those awful patriarchal males).

Some of the most sexist material ever written has also come from female authors, but this is often excused as being “satire”. Possibly the author may regard her sexist lines about male politicians as being “satire” also, but if someone questions women’s media, then it is usually said that they are misogynist, or they are trying to deny women “voice” etc.

Eventually, it reaches a stage where just how many articles written by female authors are reliable, how much is satire, how much is made up, how much is exaggerated, how much should be taken seriously, and how much is simply fiction.

In the case of “sex slaves” in Australia, no one can seem to find them, either because they are so few in number, or there are none at all, and one has to suspect that this article is just one more fictional article from a female author.
Posted by Timkins, Tuesday, 11 October 2005 2:32:23 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
I'm staggered that posters to this forum don't think there are any sex slaves in Australia. Several were found earlier this year in Melbourne and the perpetrators were taken to court and jailed for lengthy terms.
If women come from overseas to enter the sex industry voluntarily, that's their decision. The women who are the focus of this petition are often sold into slavery by their fathers, uncles, etc as the family may live in abject poverty and can't see any other way to feed the rest of their families. Or it could be just plain greed. Or it is often organised crime gangs, particularly targetting vulnerable hill tribes in Cambodia for example. I have heard quite a bit about this (because I thought it was important to know the facts). If you would like to comment on this issue, can I suggest you familiarise yourself with the issues before making dismissive comments. Try: http://www.afp.gov.au/afp/page/Media/2004/0602sexualservitude.htm or http://www.projectrespect.org.au/ and remember, they're invisible because the people who are holding them want them to be. Don't blame the women.
Posted by Meljay, Tuesday, 11 October 2005 3:01:30 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
"how many articles written by female authors are reliable, how much is satire, how much is made up, how much is exaggerated, how much should be taken seriously, and how much is simply fiction"

Although I doubt it will make the slightest bit of difference, the following statement:

"how many articles written by male authors are reliable, how much is satire, how much is made up, how much is exaggerated, how much should be taken seriously, and how much is simply fiction" IS EQUALLY TRUE.

Dont make such broadly dismissive statements about half of the population. You don't like it when women do so about men. Model the change you wish to see in others.
Posted by Laurie, Tuesday, 11 October 2005 4:06:17 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Meljay,
It is interesting that you have said that there are sex slaves in Australia, because they have been sold into slavery by their “fathers” or “uncles”.

If this is true, then obviously the “mothers” or “aunts” couldn’t be involved in any way, because they are female.

There has been every type of allegation made about males, from “All males are rapists”, to “All males don’t do enough housework”, and the problem now for so many female authors in particular, is that they have “cried wolf” far too often.

Any more allegations such as fathers and uncles selling their relatives into sex slavery, now go straight past many people, because it has reached the stage of allegation overload.

But if you do know of sex slavery, then report it. In that way people will know if it is real or not.

In the mean time, I’ll say that there are women in Australia who are selling their unwanted babies through an organisation that operates on the internet. I’ll won’t say how many babies are involved, or who is involved, and I won’t say if I have reported the matter to the police or not. I’ll just say that it is occurring.

Laurie,
I have looked at a considerable amount of literature by both male and female authors, and as a general rule, I now put articles by female authors towards the bottom of the list so far as reliability goes. That comes from the experience of having checked out the content of so many articles.
Posted by Timkins, Tuesday, 11 October 2005 4:45:31 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Oh Timkins, wouldn't your face be red if you knew how many writers use pseudonyms which disguise their gender? I write and get paid for articles under both male and female names, and I'm by no means alone in doing so. Am I authoritative and plausible when writing as a male, and not so when writing as a female? You do nothing more than make yourself look foolish with your rantings about women, and I suspect the wisest course other posters could take is simply to opt out of discussions in which you involve yourself. This is certainly what I'll be doing from now on.
Posted by anomie, Tuesday, 11 October 2005 5:13:53 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Ah-huh! We have an impostor in our midst. Who is this masked woman/man who posts under the name anomie? This is quite fascinating.

Is that you Miranda? Is it Janet? Surely not Anne Summers. Perhaps Susan Maushart, possible, or maybe Pamela Bone - yes that photo in The Age, it could very well be. But what would Pammy be doing on this little forum? Doesn't make sense. Perhaps it's Bettina, she's into those odd sexual sorts of things. Or maybe it's Michael Flood. Now there's a possibility. Perhaps it's even Clark Kent! But then, the possibilities are endless.

Let's start a competition to see who can unmask this mystery writer.

But wait! It might be dangerous to expose this masked superhero anomie, who writes and gets paid under assumed personas. I wonder if the ATO knows? Anomie may even be an illegal immigrant who goes under many names hotly pursued by the Federal Police. Perhaps she/he is an illegal sex worker/slave. Apparently, there's millions flooding into the country right now - another serious social epidemic getting underway. And we only just got over the last grossly exaggerated three of child abuse, sex abuse and domestic violence. Now sex slavery too. It's all getting very complicated and scary.

We'd better leave anomie with her/his mask on. We wouldn't want to give her/him/it a red face by exposing whoever it is. They could look very foolish with their ranting here about our Mr Timken.

Anyway, can't be much of a writer. Doesn't know the plural of ranting.
Posted by Maximus, Wednesday, 12 October 2005 6:43:52 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Both women and men seem to over-genereralize in my view, however this is surely off-topic and not relevant to the point raised.

If there are sex slaves in Australia then this proposal would seem to help them. If there aren't any... well I can't see how the proposal would cause any problems in that case.

I do believe that there were some recent cases in the media where DIMA (allegedly and from memory) frustrated police by deporting the witness immediately. I think this is plausible given their recent public record.
Posted by WhiteWombat, Wednesday, 12 October 2005 10:56:43 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Anomie,
You have a red face.
You look foolish.
You rant about women.
You are suspect.
You opt out of discussions.
You are a female writter.

There are many female writers in the media, probably more than male writers if a total count was taken. But have you ever noticed how so few ever win the Pulitzer Prize for Journalism http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0105790.html or even the Pulitzer Prize for Non-Fiction. http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0154413.html

Maybe this should be telling female writers something, regards the general accuracy, objectivity and reliability of their literature. I don’t think using a pseudonym would help win a Pulitzer Prize either. It’s the content that counts.

Maximus,
I see you didn’t include authors from the plethora of women’s magazines in your list. Understandable in many ways. If someone bought one of those magazines and read it, I think it would be completely justifiable if they returned it and asked for their money back.

WhiteWombat
A considerable amount of Government time and law Court time is taken up with trying to determine if an allegation is true or false. In recent times, there have been many allegations made about the male gender, and nearly all have come from female authors, who have quite often called themselves "feminist". But when those allegations have been properly investigated, the vast majority have been found to be false, or the female gender was equally implicated.

“Crying wolf” is now a problem for women in general, and likely to become more of a problem in the future if it continues.
Posted by Timkins, Wednesday, 12 October 2005 3:55:18 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
"Maybe this should be telling female writers something, regards the general accuracy, objectivity and reliability of their literature"

Reluctant though I am to engage with some of the silliest statements I have ever heard against women, I feel compelled to point out that Timkins you, deliberately no doubt, forgot to mention that women have in fact since the year 2000, women have won two Pulizers for fiction writing http://www.betweenthecovers.com/aw-ab/pul-lit.htm

I had previously wondered why George Elliot would use a male name to publish under, and why the Bronte sisters originally used male pen names. Now I know. Who would have thought such sweepingly silly statements about the literary talents of men versus women could be made in 2005?
Posted by Laurie, Wednesday, 12 October 2005 4:46:48 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Timkins

If that web-site does exist and if indeed Australian women are selling their babies - that is both a crime and child abuse and should be reported to the police and DoCS. I thought you would stand up for childrens' rights?

Kay
Posted by kalweb, Wednesday, 12 October 2005 5:15:20 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
It never ceases to amaze me what some people will do for sex, especially regular sex and how easily that slavish drive for sex can be manipulated for one's own ends.

l have seen some people jump thru hoops and crawl over broken glass to get to that alluring promise of sex. Some will indulge incredible self degradation and dismiss any semblance of self respect in order to get the necessary approval from the provider of sexual intimacy.

Some people will withstand a lifetime of emotional and psychological manipulation and outright abuse in the hope of getting their monthly dose.

Fancy shelling out a week's wage for a bit of sex or the mere allure of sex (stripping). What sort of person gives a week of work for a bit of sex. And what sort of person takes a week's sweat off someones back for a bit of sex.

Sex slaves. Slaves to sex.

Indeed.
Posted by trade215, Wednesday, 12 October 2005 7:17:40 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Laurie
“Lord of the Rings” is fiction. “Encyclopaedia Britannica” is non-fiction. Few women writers have ever received prizes for non-fictional literature. That is a fact, and maybe female writers should begin to seriously think about this, if they want their literature to be taken seriously, or be believed.

Anything can be written within fiction, but non-fiction has to be accurate, reliable, verifiable, provable etc, (or it becomes fiction).

Lines such as “mostly, but not always men”, or “only a middle-aged male politician could possibly think” etc, have all been heard before in various allegations made about males, (mainly made by female authors), but the vast majority of those allegations have latter been found to be fictional.

If the author knows of these “sex slaves”, then she can report them to the police. Otherwise her article could well be fictional, with almost no cases of “sex slaves” being found in Australia. There are possibly more people hit by lightening each year than there are “sex slaves” in Australia.
Posted by Timkins, Wednesday, 12 October 2005 10:39:48 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
'“Lord of the Rings” is fiction. “Encyclopaedia Britannica” is non-fiction.'

In the kindest possible way...

"Lord of the Rings" was written by a man. The Encyclopaedia Britannica has had female contributors since 1911.

But once again, we shouldn't let mere facts get in the way of a good misogynist rant :)
Posted by mahatma duck, Wednesday, 12 October 2005 11:28:02 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Its easy to tell who the misogynists and misadrists are in this place.

They are very quick to misrepresent and take wot others say out of context in order to, well, call people names and hide behind veiled insults.

Essentially the man and woman haters hate each other to the point that they are so blinded by their own hateful rhetoric that they loose site of the fact that they too are dirty pots and kettles.

The misogynists call women misandrists.
The misandrists call men misogynists.

You folks are made for each other. Why dont you start a new country somewhere and leave the rest of us in peace. Go there are knock yourselves out. It really is very annoying constantly being drawn into your divisive, combative and hostile "us versus them" rhetorical invective.
Posted by trade215, Thursday, 13 October 2005 10:01:47 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Timkins
Does your Mum agree with your views?
Posted by rossco, Thursday, 13 October 2005 1:09:09 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Vicki, I appreciated this article very much. This is a highly complex topic that desperately needs serious action. (Many comments on this article have not stuck to the topic, which is a shame.)

I hope that something is done very soon - perhaps increase funding to Project Respect and other organisations which have good knowledge of the situation and have a range of practical and legislative ideas to put into action.
Posted by ruby, Thursday, 13 October 2005 11:12:06 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Vicki Dunne
“Sex Slavery” in our society may not exist, because people have searched for it, but so little of it has been found.

However you write, “Then there are those who follow Marx and the more radical feminists in saying ordinary bourgeois marriage itself is a form of prostitution”

Under Marxist / Feminist systems, slavery has become very widespread in our society, as a form of slavery that could be termed “Capacity to Earn Slavery”. This slavery originally comes from sex, but it mainly effects men (i.e. possibly 1 in 3 men have been, or are presently effected by it). Many men have been severely effected by this form of slavery, and quite a few have suicided because of it, but this form of slavery seems very acceptable to the majority of women (see
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5744,16756161%255e2702,00.html)
http://www.melbourneinstitute.com/hilda/conf/conf2003/pdffiles/BSmyth.pdf)

I believe that this is why so few female authors or female politicians, have ever mentioned the most common form of slavery presently in our society, because it mainly effects men, and so many women are accepting of it.

Mahatma Duck.
You are mere.
You are not good.
You are a misogynist.
You rant.
You are :)

Females have written literature for many years, but few awards have been given to female authors for non-fiction. That is a fact, but acres of literature have been written by female authors in an attempt to portray females as being perpetually oppressed by males in some way. By the way this article makes references to males, this article appears very similar.

Trade,
If someone calls me a misogynist, I can call them a misogynist
If someone calls me a misandrist, I can call them a misandrist

It is interesting that on OLO, if I am critical of a male, very few maligning things are said about me. But if I’m critical of a female, many maligning things are said about me. How odd. However I don’t automatically believe anything simply because it has been written by a female author.
Posted by Timkins, Friday, 14 October 2005 9:16:19 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
"A considerable amount of Government time and law Court time is taken up with trying to determine if an allegation is true or false" - Timkins

Well that's fair. I would argue that this is sole main purpose of the court and legal system.

Timkins, I accept that women sometimes "cry wolf". I also accept that there are likely to be a number of false allegations made against men. In my view both men and women are far from perfect.

But we cannot remove a crime from the rulebook or avoid implementing measures to combat it simply because accusers might lie.

Other than that, the burden of proof applies as is tradition. And... as I implied, if there are no foreign workers in brothels (without visas) then we're unlikely to get an influx of visa/protection applications.

Finally... if there are illegal workers in brothels - well something is going wrong in that case.
Posted by WhiteWombat, Friday, 14 October 2005 2:36:22 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Timkins, this is off topic but I think worth addressing. I've seen a number of comments recently by you about OLO which I read as suggesting that the site is anti-male. Is this your intent?

I've seen very little sign of editorial interference by OLO staff as a contributor.

Have you ever had posts blocked (other than for those common limits of size or number of posts)?

Are you aware of articles which have been refused publication at OLO which you think may have been refused because they were pro-male?

There appears to be plenty of scope for a wide variety of views to be expressed freely. The type of response posters receive from other posters generally appears to bear some relation to the manner they approach the issue (not always). I've had some serious discussions with a number of other posters during my time on the site about some quite controversial issues, copped a little bit of name calling, tried not to get into it myself etc. Generally the experience has been a pleasant one with at times some really good discussion with people who hold differing views (I miss Ringtail's contributions).

I've been willing to try and understand others view points and some have shown a willingness to try and understand mine. There are some others who are just plain nasty (no names) or who show no sign of trying to understand so I try not to get into discussions with them, a waste of keystrokes.

There are good people who contribute to this site and I suspect good people involved in running it. Be thankfull that OLO exists and has such a hands off approach to posts, so different to the the talk back radio hosts who cut off dissenting views, be gratefull that you have such opportunity to put your views and be gratefull that so much of the discussion is relatively polite. Be gratefull for the times people commend you on posts that speak to them or which touch important aspects of issues.

Not many places like this in modern life.

Cheers
R0bert
Posted by R0bert, Friday, 14 October 2005 9:11:04 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
RObert

Thank you for your insightful words. Much appreciated.

Dear Timkins: can you please stop your tyrade on women and the welfare system. Heaps of things are not fair. I got over it. Surely you can too?

It was not fair that I supported an alcoholic husband for 13 years - when he was sober, a wonderful person full of promises. So I lived day by day. My fault I guess.

It was not fair that he conned the system and that he gained a disability pension as a result.

It was not fair that the Family Court ruled, that because I was the breadwinner, that I had to pay him maintenance until re reached 65 years of age. That was in 1989.

I lost the family home - his only equity was $3,500, but I could not afford to pay him out.

I paid his maintenance for three years in advance. I have not heard from him since - though I know he went to gaol for 13 drink driving charges.

I do not generalise my bitter feelings towards this creep across all men. I like men. He was a rotten rat - that's it.

I have a great second marriage.

Timkins, I impore you. Open your heart. Life is too short.

Cheers
Kay
Posted by kalweb, Friday, 14 October 2005 9:38:13 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Timkins is not always anti-female I have found - see here
http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=153
Women writers are acceptable if they say things he agrees with.
Posted by rossco, Friday, 14 October 2005 9:55:20 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
WhiteWombat
I understand what you are saying, but the problem is that allegations require money and resources to investigate, and it’s at the stage where so many allegations have been made about males, but eventually, nearly all are found to be false.

An example would be “drink spiking”. National campaigns with warning posters, newspaper ads etc, were organised to stamp out drink spiking, but now that the situation is being investigated, it is being found that the vast majority of women reporting that their drinks had been spiked, were actually drunk (often on exotic drinks with a high alcohol content), or had been mixing drinking alcohol with other forms of drug taking, such as marijuana smoking.

In the case of this article on Sex Slaves, there is minimal real evidence being provided, so how much money and resources have to be spent to investigate this allegation. I don’t like the idea of Sex Slaves, (or prostitution), but I think there needs more real evidence of Sex Slaves in this country, than what is in this article.

Robert,
You can check through the archives of OLO, and you will find very few articles that have been positive of a male, or positive of the male gender. The opposite is usually the case. That is typical of most media now, and it starts to represent serious discrimination of a gender. Any disadvantage or hardships occurring to a male or the male gender is now often overlooked, and many people may even think it deserved. This situation begins to occur in nearly all types of discrimination.

Kalweb,
I have posted many links to articles by female authors, but first I check their articles for accuracy. If they seem accurate, I link to their articles.

Women now give out enormous amounts of criticism of men, and they can expect some criticism themselves.

From what I can understand about Sex Slavery in Australia, this article is not accurate, or is grossly exaggerated, and by far the greatest amount of imposed slavery in Australia is actually occurring to men through the “capacity to earn” system.
Posted by Timkins, Friday, 14 October 2005 10:37:09 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Timkins, I'm very much in agreement that there are a number of issues where the portrayal of those issues in public campaigns and in the media is grossly dishonest and misleading. DV and child protection being the classic cases. I suspect that there are a small number of activists deliberately involved as they push particlar agenda's which they think are aided by negative images of men and planty of others who have just not put the pieces together. They have been taught that women are victims and that men are the agressors and the evidence which shows that both genders get it wrong fly by unnoticed. That does not mean that all or even most feminists are out to hurt men or are seeking unfair advantage, it just means that most of us operate best in the sphere we understand best.

On the off topic subject of content on OLO a perceived imbalance does not imply editorial bias. It may suggest that more articles of a suitable length and style are being written by those pushing womens interests etc, it might suggest that you see some articles as male maligining which are really just touching on one part of the story and not exploring the "on the other hand bit" - some of Daniels articles appear to be in that category to me. Yes I would like to see more good articles looking into some of the issues where men are being hurt badly in the current system.

Having said that I have not yet worked up the confidence or put the effort in to write and submit an article myself.

My earlier questions went unanswered. Do you know of articles which have been refused publication on OLO which you believe were refused publication because thay were pro male? Have you been censored by the OLO staff for pro-male (or perceived anti-female comments) in your posts?

If not then you might want to consider the fairness of your maligning of the OLO staff with the ongoing suggestions of editorial sexism.

R0bert
Posted by R0bert, Saturday, 15 October 2005 8:18:34 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Robert
There are over 3,000 articles in OLO archives, and you can look through those articles to find those that are positive of a male, or of the male gender (eg http://www.onlineopinion.com.au/feature.asp). It is a fact that very few are, and because of sheer number of articles in OLO, one would have to suspect editorial bias, and the general environment of OLO is anti-male / pro-female, and this constitutes the majority of feminism also.

It could be part of a social system, where it is deemed socially acceptable to blame a male for some problem, but considered socially unacceptable to blame or even implicate a female. This is a protective mechanism for the female gender, but often it leads to myths or false beliefs being developed, as females are often to blame, or are equally implicated. DV, and child abuse are ready examples; Prostitution and Sex Slavery are probably others.

I have heard of one article being rejected by OLO, (on CSA), but the exact details I am unsure of, but there is a considerable amount of flaming and name calling from some posters, and many of their posts have very little or nothing to do with the topic. I would suspect the forum moderation is bias also, as such posts are outside of forum rules.

I see the allegation of Sex Slavery as just one more allegation being directed at males. Many of these allegations seem to fit a pattern. Someone makes the allegation originally, then others make that allegation also (like spreading a rumour). Eventually the allegation becomes widespread, but some time latter a researcher is granted money to investigate the allegation. Invariably it is found false, a half-truth, or the female gender is equally implicated (eg Drink Spiking). But by that time, the allegation is imbedded into people’s thinking as being true, and only males are implicated or to blame. In the mean time, a new allegation is started, but investigation is always one step behind the allegation. The overall intent is general demonisation of the male gender, and this has now become widespread within many societies.
Posted by Timkins, Saturday, 15 October 2005 11:11:05 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
I wholeheartedly support Timkins doubts about the intent and accuracy of this article.

Because Vicki Dunne information is so scanty we should rely on the only post that seems to be authoratative - that is from "Princes' rule" I'll therefore quote it at length

"As a brothel worker for the past 23 years (on and off so to speak!) I thought you might like to know some antidotal facts.
- there is no distinction made between sex workers who visit Australia to work and those who decide to work after visiting. I have worked with many "Asian" and "European" women who have been brought up in Australia and choose to work but find themselves caught up in the "migrant" net,
- if I had a choice of slaving for a pittance in bad conditions or being taken to Australia for work in the sex industry for a couple of years where I can take my lifetime income home with me, I know what I would choose,
- yes, there is organised crime by the triads but it is not as large as some would make it out to be, but what exists is really bad, it also (at least in Queensland) preys on private sex workers who have very limited english language skills and community networks,
- most of the women comming to Australia for sex work know what they are getting into and most get the choice to go home or stay and apply for visa when their tenure runs out,
- for all the talk about "rescuing the poor women" why not work on getting rid of the crime so we can go about earning a living. Alot of us actually like our jobs, both migrant and aussie alike!

Posted by princes' rule, Tuesday, 11 October 2005 12:26:14 AM"

How about relying on this kind of information, particularly "why not work on getting rid of the crime so we can go about earning a living" rather than the perpetual, circular, uninformed (and largely morality driven) arguments on whether you think (or morally hope) these woman are being exploited?
Posted by plantagenet, Saturday, 15 October 2005 6:14:51 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
And sccording to an SMH article today, a sex industry union agrees...

“Most Asian sex workers trafficked into Australia want to go on working as prostitutes and should be given visas, says a sex industry union. A sex workers association forum in Melbourne was told Asian sex slavery in Australia was largely a myth. And panel members said the federal government should provide 300 working visas a year, instead of raiding brothels and deporting women.”

http://www.smh.com.au/news/NATIONAL/Union-pushes-for-sex-worker-visas/2005/10/14/1128796701858.html
Posted by Seeker, Saturday, 15 October 2005 6:38:32 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
This Australian Institute Of Criminalology study is from the year 2000. Didn't find much evidence to support the notion that sex slavery is rampant here.

http://www.aic.gov.au/publications/rpp/24/full_report.pdf

"A close reading of media accounts of “trafficking” frequently reveals that the issues of migrant prostitution and trafficking, as defined for the purposes of this report, have been conflated, with little regard for the important differences between these practices.

The academic literature on the subject notes that most undocumented workers in the Australian sex industry have entered that industry voluntarily, having come to Australia for that purpose. These reports indicate that there are very few cases of women having been deceived about the nature of the work they will undertake in Australia. The issues of deception or coercion are more likely to arise in relation to the terms and conditions of their employment, including the amount of their debt and the time in which it will repaid.

For example, Brockett and Murray have studied the working conditions of migrant sex workers in Australia. They found that in 1993, 80 per cent of all female migrant sex workers in Sydney were from Thailand and 90 per cent of these women were on contracts which outlined the terms and conditions of employment, the scheduled repayment of debt for recruitment and passage, and placement within an establishment (Brockett and Murray 1994, p. 192)."
Posted by HarryC, Saturday, 15 October 2005 8:38:26 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
"..allegations require money and resources to investigate.." [Timkins]

That's a better way of putting it I think. However - the crux of my agrument was that if there are few migrant sex workers then the financial burden/cost should be relatively low. I still feel that to be valid.

On the residency bit... I'd suggest that this only be granted after successful prosecution. Otherwise it could be an incentive to press charges without regard to evidence.

In terms of the effect on accused. Well I have to assume that the "innocent until proven guilty" concept will be applied. Otherwise I'd oppose the vast majority laws.

Re-reading the article, I share some of your concerns about the way in which the topic is put. You have correctly pointed out (I now believe) that there is little evidence included. And it is emotive writing. So yeah. I'm agreeing now... that we need more evidence and more detail, however on balance I'd tend to support the proposal.
Posted by WhiteWombat, Monday, 17 October 2005 12:11:23 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Australia is a slaving nation.

The Australian govt. were aware that thousands of females were obliged to perform sex without remuneration because of the 'unfair contracts' they had entered into.

They viewed that as a case of a bad business deal rather than slavery. By the standards that apply to civilized countries the govt. found thousands of slaves.
Posted by Cadiz, Wednesday, 19 October 2005 3:43:01 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Being forced to do sex for nothing to repay a huge debt is slavery.

I had presumed that after millions of of dollars & years of lobbying by human rights advocates that Australians might simply accept that straightforward position as valid.

Consent in civilized countries is also usually 'voiced' as opposed to a laminated easi-wipe schedule with pictographs of anal sex. Australia is up to its eyeballs in trafficking.

The problem would still seem to be the lack of a moral vocabulary to understand the basic concepts.
Posted by Cadiz, Wednesday, 19 October 2005 3:57:04 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
There are clear discrepancies as to the exact numbers of women trafficked into Australia, however as noted in earlier posts there have been a number of court cases and prosecutions this year related to charges of sex slavery.

These charges are largely the result of a new legislative approach towards combatting sexual slavery and trafficking in Australia. Adopted in 2004, the National Action Plan to Eradicate Trafficking in Persons was released by the Howard government to ensure Australia's compliance with our international human rights obligations stipulated under the UN Trafficking Protocol.

As a reasonably new initiave, the effectiveness and approach of this policy response to trafficking requires some review. However I would argue that policing of brothels, and prosecution of sexual slavery have increased significantly with this inititiative. The general reported incidences of trafficking have also increased due to new visas for victims assisting prosecution of traffickers.

Therefore I would argue that given that the government has acknowledged there is a problem with trafficking, as demonstrated by their 20 million dollar commitment towards implementing new anti trafficking initiatives - this clearly undermines Timkins suggestion that there is no problem with sexual slavery in Australia at all.

Perhaps we should be channelling more funding into researching these issues so that we can attain more accurate data on the extent and nature of the problem. Debate around whether sexual slavery exists in Australia are only one iarea where there is contention within the broader trafficking debate. There are plenty of others that are far more intelligent, particularly given the available evidence which nullifies the suggestion that trafficking does not exist in Australia.
Posted by sprite, Monday, 18 December 2006 12:32:47 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
  1. Pages:
  2. 1
  3. 2
  4. 3
  5. ...
  6. 6
  7. 7
  8. 8
  9. All

About Us :: Search :: Discuss :: Feedback :: Legals :: Privacy