The National Forum   Donate   Your Account   On Line Opinion   Forum   Blogs   Polling   About   
The Forum - On Line Opinion's article discussion area



Syndicate
RSS/XML


RSS 2.0

Main Articles General

Sign In      Register

The Forum > Article Comments > The unborn are victims of domestic violence too > Comments

The unborn are victims of domestic violence too : Comments

By Greg Donnelly, published 20/12/2016

The unborn, who are often not accidentally impacted by acts of family violence, but rather the intended targets of perpetrators, deserve to be seen and treated as victims in their own right.

  1. Pages:
  2. 1
  3. 2
  4. 3
  5. All
This is one of the most pathetic things you every said Greg. What makes even more pathetic, is you're a member of a party that has a strong pro-choice history.

If you you paid more interest in children that have actually been born and now are now being molested by priest of your church.
Posted by Cobber the hound, Tuesday, 20 December 2016 8:17:45 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Good idea, it makes sense.

It should indeed by an additional crime. If someone is going to stoop to the despicable low of bashing a pregnant woman with the specific intent of injuring the unborn child, it is absolutely a greater crime than bashing only a woman. The recognition of a crime against the unborn child is a common sense, fair and reasonable way to recognise this.
Posted by Trav, Tuesday, 20 December 2016 8:32:27 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
“The mere suggestion that we have a criminal offence with terms in it like "child destruction" or "killing an unborn child" will make some people bristle. Those who propose such legislative change will be accused of having a hidden agenda.”

Why not wait until they bristle and then deal with it if it happens or are you projecting the behaviour of others as a way of ‘flagging’ your own doubt about what it is that you are trying to achieve?

This is just a sneaky way to have the fetus given the status of ‘child’. Whether the reality in the womb of the mother is a fetus or a child should be argued on its own merits. This is not an argument one way or the other about that. It is an emotional manipulation which tries to link genuine concern about domestic violence with abortion.

Violence toward a pregnant woman should be dealt with by issuing the same penalties as violence toward any woman – pregnant or not. This author wants harsher penalties on the basis of their being two people attacked or an ‘unborn child’ being attacked.

First you have to prove that the reality in the womb is a child with all the rights of a child. Your argument for punishment is based on the fact that it is a child but such facts do not exist and it cannot be proven. Get the basic premise of your argument accepted and then come back to us about what punishment should apply to acts of domestic violence against that entity in the womb.
Posted by phanto, Tuesday, 20 December 2016 8:41:56 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
"First you have to prove that the reality in the womb is a child with all the rights of a child. Your argument for punishment is based on the fact that it is a child but such facts do not exist and it cannot be proven" says Phanto ..without realising he is himself walking, living, proof of the fact that when a woman is pregnant, she is carrying an unborn child. That's what he must have been when in his mother's womb otherwise he wouldn't be debating on OLO! Maybe Phanto has seen women give birth to mice....kittens or puppies ...but I haven't ...in all my years as a practising midwife I have only ever seen pregnant women deliver baby human beings. Greg Donnelly has no obligation to concern himself with clerical sexual abuse of children. There is a Royal Commission underway into this...leaving no stone unturned to bring to justice perpetrators of such heinous crimes. He is a legislator and if the Royal Commission makes recommendations to legislators, he will then have a responsibility to address them. Anyone reading this knows you are just taking an opportunistic swipe at the Catholic Church which opposes abortion! Two wrongs don't make a right Phanto. No doubt your parents taught you that. It reminds me of some of the hoary old chestnuts thrown up in the early days of the debate on abortion like "What about the starving children in India?" As if killing Australian babies was going to feed them !
Posted by Denny, Tuesday, 20 December 2016 9:19:12 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Denny:

The argument being put forth by the author is that the entity in the womb is a child when it is attacked. He is not basing his argument on the fact that the entity will become an adult. It is about what to call it when it is attacked. Is a zygote a child? When does it become a child? Should women who are subject to violence be always tested in case they were pregnant and then have their perpetrators punished for two cases of assault?

You do not know when a child becomes a child and you will never know. You will just continue to make silly arguments based on the presumption that you do know.
Posted by phanto, Tuesday, 20 December 2016 9:39:04 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Domestic violence cannot be regulated by politicians; it occurs in private spontaneously. "Plans" and 'targets', beloved of the political class, are at their most useless in the matter of domestic violence. And, of course the unborn are affected! I don't see the point of this article at all.
Posted by ttbn, Tuesday, 20 December 2016 10:17:05 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
There is a real issue of consistency here. It is generally lawful in most states for a mother to have the life of her unborn terminated. If it is ok for the mother to authorise a termination, there is a logical difficulty in then making a major crime out of a third party doing something equivalent. Currently our unborn have the status of being their mother's chattel. It goes with the notion of abortion on demand.
Posted by Bren, Tuesday, 20 December 2016 10:19:31 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
naming an unborn child a fetus is simply dishonest. Anyone with half a conscience and brain who looks through a telescope knows that a baby is a baby. Denying Jews as people might of eased the conscience of the Germans but it is only the blind and ignorant that deny they are people. The killing of unborn babies shows that the morality of those supporting this barbarity is no difference to the latest Merkel import who drove a truck into a crowd in Germany today. Oh how easy it is to believe the dogmas of the secularist who don't want to take responsibility for their actions. Sickening that they use pseudo science instead of the truth.
Posted by runner, Tuesday, 20 December 2016 10:51:38 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Phanto,you tell me "You do not know when a child becomes a child and you will never know." If I can't recognise a child for the child it is, it's an optician I need! Who ever heard a woman announce she was having a "zygote", an "embryo" a "foetus" ? It is common parlance to describe a pregnant woman as "having a baby" ..or is "with child"! "All social engineering is preceded by verbal engineering" and there is no greater example of this than when people try to justify abortion! "Zygote" "embryo" "foetus" "baby" "infant" "child" "teenager" "adult" "senior citizen" ...are all terms used to indicate stages of human life. Now all you have to do Phanto is justify the taking of a human life! Mercifully capital punishment has been judged unjustified in this country...now all we need do is make it unjustified from the womb to the tomb !
Posted by Denny, Tuesday, 20 December 2016 10:58:22 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Greg - if you are not aware, Queensland added a section to their Criminal Code back in 1997 along the lines of what you are wanting.

Section 313 Killing unborn child
(2) Any person who unlawfully assaults a female pregnant with a child and destroys the life of, or does grievous bodily harm to, or transmits a serious disease to, the child before its birth, commits a crime.
Maximum penalty—imprisonment for life.

Of course such a law is appropriate. And please note that the entity carried by a pregnant female is unambiguously referred to as a "child", and a child whose life can be "destroyed" or "killed" (as per the section heading).

Note too the potential penalty - up to life imprisonment - essentially the same penalty as for killing a born human being.

Yet this is in a State that turns a blind eye to perhaps 15 000 abortions – the intentional destruction of the lives of unborn children at the mother’s/parent’s request - each year.

Talk about a double standard. If a child in the womb is killed by an assailant, the assailant can get life in prison. But if the mother pays to have that exact same child killed by an abortionist then apparently that is okay.

This is madness.
Posted by JP, Tuesday, 20 December 2016 11:40:51 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Bren,

It is not OK, for "mothers to authorise" an abortion (if 'mother' is the correct word to describe such a person). In all states of Australia, abortion is subject to CRIMINAL LAW. Different states have conditions under which abortions may be performed, and the person who wants an abortion just doesn't rock up and get one. It requires more than one doctor and other health practitioners to make the decision. We haven't entirely reached the barbarity of abortion on demand. If women don't want a child, they should do something about it before one is conceived, as should the male they are involved with. Of course, none of this has anything to do with the article, but you brought it up, and I have to say that I am appalled by the casual discussions about killing that take place on OLO.
Posted by ttbn, Tuesday, 20 December 2016 12:27:44 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
ttbn - In the ACT it is legal for women to have abortions up to birth for any reason. In Victoria it is legal to have abortions up to 24 weeks for any reason and in Tasmania it is legal for any reason up to 16 weeks. In these places abortion is no longer subject to criminal law.

So, yes women can just “rock up and get one.” Even in other States where the law has not been changed any woman who wants an abortion still gets one without any problems – so long as she can pay for it, at least.
Posted by JP, Tuesday, 20 December 2016 1:53:35 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
JP,

We must be looking at different sources. All of the instances you cite are true: women can obtain abortions in certain circumstances, but it is not just at the whim of a woman. If it were so, why is there so much fuss, and so many demands from from bellicose females who are probably unfit for motherhood anyway?
Posted by ttbn, Tuesday, 20 December 2016 2:25:00 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
runner if you can see a baby in a telescope that it most likely is a baby ie one that has been born.

If you can look through a microscope into a IVF dish and turn a egg that has just been fertilized into a baby then you have a great imagination.

Zeo's law was voted down in nsw and so it should have been in Greg had been in the Parliament then I wonder how he would have voted.
Posted by Cobber the hound, Tuesday, 20 December 2016 3:38:48 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Where do the feminists find these Uncle Toms to write this stuff?
Posted by Hasbeen, Tuesday, 20 December 2016 4:16:45 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Cobber

speak to some who have survived murder attempts while in the supposedly sacred safe place. Then come back with you idiotic heartless spew.
Posted by runner, Tuesday, 20 December 2016 4:33:12 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
I think this is an article which fills us with horror and raises the question of whether our society is civilised or gone back to law of th the jungle.
Posted by Gadfly42, Tuesday, 20 December 2016 11:33:44 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
The unborn don't exist, they are merely just an unwanted growth to be disposed of; a bit like a wart. Personally I am in favour of postpartum abortion, till the 75th trimester.
Posted by McCackie, Friday, 30 December 2016 7:18:37 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
  1. Pages:
  2. 1
  3. 2
  4. 3
  5. All

About Us :: Search :: Discuss :: Feedback :: Legals :: Privacy