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The Forum > Article Comments > Does the debate show Clinton moving towards Sanders? > Comments

Does the debate show Clinton moving towards Sanders? : Comments

By Tristan Ewins, published 28/9/2016

The Sanders campaign mobilised millions: especially amongst the young. Clinton would be well advised to go further in remobilising those people.

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It appears so and hopefully, occasionally, is the case? That said, there's an irish expression that goes, you can't polish a turd! But particularly, a freshly laid one!

And both these individuals are unpopular, save in, (freshly laid) Putin praising, D Trumps case, he's so unpopular, around half of the conservative element would, I believe, get out and vote and just to vote for Clinton, if only to ensure his itchy trigger finger is never the one hovering over automatic armageddon or his, must be obeyed voice is the one barking junkyard dog instructions at Generals!

I mean if you are going to mount a preemptive strike against a nuclear armed sovereign nation!? It needs to come like a bolt out of the blue, be devastatingly complete, and take out all possible response mechanisms!

Costing squadrillions! Unimaginable mass destruction and monstrous mega casualties! And totally reliant on absolutely impeccable intelligence! Rather than the confected rumour mongering (WMD) that got us involved in Iraq! Anything less, and we could all bend over and kiss our kesters goodbye!

It says plenty about the level of inquisitorial intelligence in the land of the dollar bill, that he made it this far! Given, his business practises/comprehension, [include it seems, being bankrupt six times,] we can only hope they/it are never ever inflicted on a still fragile, but recovering American economy!

His well known history, seems to include never ever having paid federal tax, and numerous (literally hundreds) small to medium family businesses!?

A return to sanity by reality show enthusiasts, ought to prevent even the remotest possible chance of there ever being President Trump?
Alan B.
Posted by Alan B., Wednesday, 28 September 2016 11:02:23 AM
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most read article at this point ; but only one comment. Wonder why? Any opinions out there? Tristan.
Posted by Tristan Ewins, Wednesday, 28 September 2016 8:17:02 PM
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Tristan, some real facts you may not have considered:

"Clinton’s track record as US First Lady, when her husband Bill was in the White House in the 1990s, followed by her years as a Senator, and then as US Secretary of State has accumulated enough evidence that would arguably allow her to be convicted as one of the biggest war criminals in recent times.

She's publicly admitted to exhorting her husband to launch an illegal NATO war in the Balkans when US warplanes bombed Belgrade, the capital of Serbia, in 1999. That led to the unlawful secession of Kosovo, which today is a “breeding ground” of jihadist terrorism and Mafia corruption. It was the Clintons more than any other international figures who created the failed state of Kosovo and the current instability in the Balkans – on the doorstep of Europe and Russia.

As a congressional Senator, Hillary Clinton backed both the illegal US wars in Afghanistan and Iraq, which not only caused more than a million deaths and destroyed those societies, but in addition those wars exploded the phenomenon of jihadist terrorism across the globe.

In her failed bid for the US presidency back in 2008 against Barack Obama, Clinton warned that she would order the “obliteration” of Iran in order to defend Israel if she were to become Commander-in-Chief. She was obviously alluding to her willingness to use nuclear weapons to destroy Iran, yet this is the same person who says that Donald Trump should not be let anywhere near the nuclear keys to America’s arsenal.

During her four years as Secretary of State under Obama, Clinton was the stand-out gung-ho senior member of the White House administration. It was she who pushed for the disastrous war for regime change in Libya and boasted after the murder of the country’s leader Muammar Gaddafi by US-backed jihadists in 2011. Clinton’s policy turned a once-prosperous North African nation into a charnel house, which continues to destabilize the entire region and Europe from terrorism and refugees, who are dying by the thousands as they attempt to cross the Mediterranean."

TBC
Posted by Geoff of Perth, Thursday, 29 September 2016 1:36:30 AM
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Cont

"It was Clinton who colluded with the Central Intelligence Agency, and with Arab and Turkish despotic rogue states to ship weapons and terror brigades from Libya into Syria in order to instigate another war for regime change. That war has caused as many as 400,000 deaths and up to 10 million displaced people, compounding the mayhem of instability in the region and for Europe that was unleashed with Libya.

Hillary Rodham Clinton is also responsible for the lamentable downturn in relations between the US and Russia, after she began falsely accusing Moscow of trying to resurrect the Soviet Union and threatening its neighbors. Clinton’s reckless provocation of a new Cold War led to the Ukraine crisis, the US-backed coup d’état in Kiev in 2014 and the ongoing bloody aggression against the ethnic Russian population in the east of that country. That in turn has created the worst tensions between Russia and the US and Europe in decades, to the point where many commentators fear that a nuclear war could break out.

If Clinton were to get elected to the White House in the November presidential contest, the prognosis for world relations is even grimmer. In a recent foreign policy “showcase speech” in which she lambasted Trump, Clinton snidely referred to Russian President Vladimir Putin as a “tyrant”. She also said that if Trump should win the presidency, then the “Kremlin would celebrate” – inferring that Russia harbors irrational enmity towards the US.

Trump may have many faults and vulgarities. His demagogic views seem off the wall and at times repugnant. Whether he would be a danger to world peace is moot.

But one thing is sure about Clinton. She is a warmonger of the highest order whose criminal interventions have led to millions of deaths and a world haunted by terrorism and the specter of nuclear war.

Trump maybe a huckster, but at least he does not have blood on his hands."

TBC
Posted by Geoff of Perth, Thursday, 29 September 2016 1:43:16 AM
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Cont

"Clinton is provably far more dangerous than Trump. Laughably, she poses as a “foreign policy” mandarin and a reliable pair of hands for national security, against Trump’s “incoherent rantings”. The only thing reliable about Clinton is that she will serve Wall Street banks, the Pentagon and CIA as a rubber-stamp Commander-in-Chief to facilitate whatever overseas agenda furnishes maximum profits for these secretive power entities.

Her so-called Clinton Foundation, set up with her husband, has received millions of dollars in grants from Saudi Arabia and other Persian Gulf dictators. Any wonder that her foreign policies and penchant for murderous operations concurs with the regional machinations of these same despots.

The continuing investigation into Clinton’s violation of classified government information from using her private, insecure email account is but one illustration of just how dangerous this person is. She considers herself above the law, and given her propensity to sell her policies to the highest bidder that makes for a highly corrupt and unscrupulous leader of the world’s biggest nuclear power."

Tristan, be very careful what you wish for, I for one would prefer to see her in jail!
Cheers
Geoff
Posted by Geoff of Perth, Thursday, 29 September 2016 1:48:42 AM
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Geoff of Perth...precisely why DT won't be elected is the fact of the $ behind the House of Saud backing HRC into the Oval Office.

We'll quite probably see a repeat of the Gee Dubblya election results where the Florida count was fudged and got him over the line again...hmm something smells fishy in Freo...!
Posted by Albie Manton in Darwin, Thursday, 29 September 2016 10:56:53 AM
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problem is that it really does come down to a matter of 'the lesser evil' ; Trump would devastate American society with his cuts to the bone ; his massive corporate welfare/tax cuts and so on. He wants to cut Company Tax by more than half in just one term.
Posted by Tristan Ewins, Thursday, 29 September 2016 11:48:32 AM
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Just assuming the yanks are not stupid enough to repeat their mistake in giving Obama a second term, there is little importance where Hillary moves. She is unlikely to be able to put any of it into effect.

Tristan, you have that completely wrong. Another 4 years of Obama/Hillary type policies will see the USA so broke that American society will be totally bankrupt, & so devastated it will no longer be able to hand out billions to the useless, it just won't be there or borrowable.

The only salvation is someone like Trump, who will kick some ass, & make people work for a living.

Just the same is required in good old Oz, but I don't think we have a chance. Abbott went to water when faced with opposition, & the current dill will never do anything but talk. Perhaps that is a good thing, his likely actions would be too close to your ideas to be anything but disastrous.
Posted by Hasbeen, Friday, 30 September 2016 12:51:41 PM
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Has-been ; Trump has said effectively he will cut corporate tax by half ; Just where the money is supposed to come from then is anybody's guess!
Posted by Tristan Ewins, Friday, 30 September 2016 2:05:39 PM
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Tristan,
How about by cutting the Pentagon budget in half, ceasing the unauthorised and illegal wars in at least six countries, closing the over than seven hundred US military bases worldwide just to name a few, or is Hillary going to continue Obama's legacy of war and hegemony which you seem to support.

Question answered don't you think?
Posted by Geoff of Perth, Friday, 30 September 2016 11:13:46 PM
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Do you think Trump is going to do all these things ; I'm not saying Clinton is ideal ; but 'lesser evil' matters for the people who are affected.
Posted by Tristan Ewins, Saturday, 1 October 2016 10:37:47 AM
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Tristan, I don't think there is a lesser evil than another 4 years of the crazy policies of Obama, that Hillary has promised to maintain.

Of course that is only a Clinton promise, so doesn't mean much if anything, but it is her natural tendencies.
Posted by Hasbeen, Saturday, 1 October 2016 12:39:52 PM
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Tristan,

I would love your view on why Trump has proven so popular.
Posted by Shadow Minister, Sunday, 2 October 2016 11:13:38 AM
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He's popular because he promises to save or protect jobs. He has a chance because many working class Americans are sick of deindustrialisation. And afraid for their futures. He also has a chance because the Democrats have refused to pitch appropriately to the US working class - and only speak of 'the middle class'. Working class Americans are economically insecure ; and tired of a Democratic Party which speaks only to - and of - the middle classes.

Also many Americans have swallowed the line re: so called 'liberal elites' and 'political correctness'. This was easier for the Right to achieve again because the Democrats do not generally speak of - and to - the working class. If they do - it is a 'secondary pitch' compared with the fight for the middle classes.

There's also the role of the Conservative churches and ignorant, aggressive nationalism.

Marx was right that there are reasons for the working class to adopt a progressive orientation. But it should not be taken as a GIVEN - as the rise of fascism has shown on several occasions.
Posted by Tristan Ewins, Sunday, 2 October 2016 11:18:41 AM
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"Trump would devastate American society with his cuts to the bone ; his massive corporate welfare/tax cuts and so on. He wants to cut Company Tax by more than half in just one term."

Thank you for your frank admission that you would rather millions of innocent people be killed in pointless aggressive than admit the principle that anyone has a right to be free from a government motivated by socialist ideology.

Your absurd idea that taxation makes "society" richer is just mere compound and aggravated stupidity, end of story.

Anyone who thinks socialism is more physically productive than capitalism is a blithering idiot.
Posted by Jardine K. Jardine, Sunday, 2 October 2016 4:23:06 PM
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Jardine seems to hail from the Hayekian extreme of right-wing politics. Anyone done in the name of the collective good ; whether through the welfare state, or via public sector nation building - is considered a 'corruption' of the free-market-ideal. Even Menzies did not see the world this way. With a long view the conversion of even the Liberal Party to the economic-libertarian extreme is a relatively recent phenomenon.

There's a broad range of positions which could be considered 'socialist' ; and I fit in with the democratic socialist tradition that began with 19th century radical social democracy.

Its true that many socialists today think there is more to quality of life apart from 'more and more production'. 'Qualitative' factors such as free time , security, cultural immersion and development.... So 'more and more' production is not always 'better'.

But if democratic socialists put their minds to eliminating waste it can be possible to 'grow the pie' even while incrementally reducing the working week. How? Because capitalism depends on a 'reserve army of labour' to discipline the working class. But the Swedes showed that with economically interventionist policies and trade union co-operation you could have close-to-full employment without inflation... Since this was achieved under Rehn-Meidner no right-wing capitalist government come anywhere near their success re: full employment, equality, growth, containment of inflation - all at once... (more coming)
Posted by Tristan Ewins, Sunday, 2 October 2016 4:55:35 PM
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Also there needs to be a balance between 'the public good' pursued by government - and individual discretion re: consumption - personal determination of needs structures through markets.

In an advanced capitalist economy with relative abundance personal discretion re: consumption is a necessary state of affairs - And markets can hold capitalists accountable where there is sufficient information, consumer organisation, and competition...

But 'the public good' should not be discounted utterly because of a capitalist Ideology. Natural public monopolies , nation-building public infrastructure ; public services and welfare - all add to our well-being and our security.

Most socialists today would recognise all this ; but its the economic-libertarian strains in the Right these days that cannot accept any compromise... Its they that are the real Ideologues... And its the Leftists who are more rationally-minded and open to compromise....

Mind you at least the genuine liberations are for free speech, and even free labour organisation - including the right to strike....
Posted by Tristan Ewins, Sunday, 2 October 2016 5:01:08 PM
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also I have no interest in people 'being killed' as Jardine puts it ; But he didn't seem to finish that sentence - so I don't know what he was really trying to say.... Trump gets some kudos for criticising the Second Gulf War - with the destabilisation that followed in its wake... But cutting Corporate Taxes HALF - with no consideration of the human consequences - is profoundly irresponsible. We may as well ask: What EXACTLY would be cut? This is where the economic libertarians begin to flounder - and ordinary people develop doubts when they begin to understand the practical consequences...
Posted by Tristan Ewins, Sunday, 2 October 2016 5:04:15 PM
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Trump is definitely spouting populist tripe. In that way he closely resembles Bernie Sanders, neither of whom has policies that add up.
Posted by Shadow Minister, Sunday, 2 October 2016 6:19:20 PM
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