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The Forum > Article Comments > Western civilisation is adrift in the world of ideas > Comments

Western civilisation is adrift in the world of ideas : Comments

By Pete Mulherin, published 14/1/2016

The groupthink of Left orthodoxy is accelerating the demise of liberal values on which Western culture was built.

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I did write to Quadrant on the subject of the Left and the Right:
‘The idea that no one reading Quadrant could belong to the target audience for Barack Obama’s “you didn’t build that” speech (“The New Politics of Data-Driven Elections”, January-February 2013) is illustrative of the weird world that Quadrant has become. I am part of the target audience – or would be if I were a US citizen – and a regular Quadrant reader.

‘I, however, know exactly what the “that” referred to is and the political motivation for giving only part of the quote as I am also aware of the rest of it:
“If you were successful, somebody along the line gave you some help. There was a great teacher somewhere in your life. Somebody helped to create this unbelievable American system that we have that allowed you to thrive. Somebody invested in roads and bridges. If you’ve got a business – you didn’t build that.”
The “that” is not the business; it is the society that empowers the business.

‘In a country in which the Right – under both Coalition and Labor governments – has loosened the centralised labour market, freed up international trade, sold off public enterprises, turned public schools into autonomous competing small businesses, contracted out welfare and employment services, lowered tax rates and entrenched the idea that government itself is the problem, it is fanciful to believe in total dominance by the Left….
Posted by Chris C, Thursday, 14 January 2016 8:08:17 AM
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‘The Left controls culture (gay marriage and all that trendy stuff), but economics remains in the firm hands of the Right. Those of us in the social democratic tradition can only wonder at how right wing our politics has become. We who fought the totalitarian impulses of the communists at university 40 years ago are likely to be members of the ALP now, while today’s Liberals proudly claim the label, “conservative”, in defiance of Robert Menzies’s ideal that he was not forming a conservative party.

‘Quadrant has become one long whinge that amounts to no more than the fact that the Left dominates in jobs that the Right can’t be bothered doing.

‘Yours sincerely,
Chris Curtis

‘Emailed to keithwindschuttle@quadrant.org.au
as The Left… The Left… The Left… The Left…’

The letter was not published.
Posted by Chris C, Thursday, 14 January 2016 8:09:05 AM
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Yep, the church communities do well at educating students but need to be more present throughout adulthood thereby providing vision and purpose to everyday life.
Posted by progressive pat, Thursday, 14 January 2016 8:47:27 AM
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"Although perhaps well intentioned, the groupthink of Left orthodoxy is accelerating the demiWestern hberal values on which Western culture was built."

There is nothing 'well intentioned' about the Left. The Left is a Fifth Column, white-anting the West with relativism.
Posted by ttbn, Thursday, 14 January 2016 8:59:57 AM
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Peter,
Good article. I am in then middle of reading Rowan William's "Faith in the Public Square" It addresses many of the concerns you raise and also is a corrective of the opinions often expressed in Quadrant.
Peter Sellick
Posted by Sells, Thursday, 14 January 2016 9:11:28 AM
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I agree with Sells, although I think Chris C’s “the Left controls culture (gay marriage and all that trendy stuff), but economics remains in the firm hands of the Right” is also to the point.
Posted by George, Thursday, 14 January 2016 9:35:29 AM
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"Groupthink of Left orthodoxy " how on earth does the Author think he'll be taken seriously other then the usual rubes with a statement like that.

The Author clear just wants to fan the flames of the partisan war. Pathetic really.

I'm sure if the author was a bit older he would be railing against the dangers of rock music.

This a silly simplistic post, the author does not understand how in a liberal democracy that we derive our laws from the people not from made up gods. Nor doesn't he seem to understand what the idea of personal freedom means

The author has used so many straw man in this piece that the flames rival those from the fire bombing of Dresden.

oh and btw it's Judeo-Christian-islamic values, all three religions are cut from the same cloth even the Pope agrees on that one.
Posted by Cobber the hound, Thursday, 14 January 2016 9:40:03 AM
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Thoughtful article Peter.

I think the basis of the problem is that if people believe that humanity has unintentionally happened to have evolved from the primeval slime, for no ultimate purpose, then, it is hardly surprising that all sense of value and right and wrong are being lost.

In such a universe it really is the case that nothing has intrinsic value and there is no basis for morality.

If that is the real state of the universe there is no point pretending otherwise and we will have to learn to live with an increasingly unpleasant world.
Posted by JP, Thursday, 14 January 2016 10:34:22 AM
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It truly is pathetic when religious people suggest that an Atheistic view of the world has no moral basis.

Every evil act you can think of has been justified at one time or another by a religious world view.

Human sacrifices, genital mutilation, caste systems, slavery, the death penalty, cutting peoples hands off, burning witches...etc

Yet we still get religious (particularly on the right) waving their little books at the rest of us telling us we are immoral, that their actions are justifiable and moral because it says it's okay in their little book.
Posted by Cobber the hound, Thursday, 14 January 2016 1:26:52 PM
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Hi Cobber,

You suggest rightly that " .... we still get religious (particularly on the right) waving their little books at the rest of us telling us we are immoral, that their actions are justifiable and moral because it says it's okay in their little book."

Are you referring to ISIS and other reactionaries ? What you say certainly seems to fit :)

Cheers,

Joe
Posted by Loudmouth, Thursday, 14 January 2016 1:38:40 PM
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Cobber - I don’t deny that you can create your own moral framework. You may also find others who make up a similar moral framework as your own. You may decide to call your moral positions “right”.

But why should anyone care what you decide to say is moral or immoral?

After all, you have just made it up. Even if lots of people choose to agree with each other about what is moral, if atheism is true, it is still all just made up.

You may want to try and use force (the law) to try and make people comply to your moral rules but that does not change the fact that your moral rules are just made up.

No, atheism cannot provide a basis for morality.

If you think it can, please demonstrate that.
Posted by JP, Thursday, 14 January 2016 6:38:40 PM
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Gotta agree mainly with Chis C but point out the left has been sliding to the right now for several decades.

And are little more than fiscal conservatives and but a pale shadow of the right.

There was a time when multimillionaires, would have found themselves part of Menzies conservatives, but now find that that brand has also headed right.

To the point that new ideas and reform is stifled and the contractionary (cause and effect) policies they seem to prefer, which just contract the economy and force various spending reductions?

We may be adrift in a world of ideas, yet if nobody even considers something new we stay where we are. Simply put, it is madness to do what you've always done while expecting different outcomes.

Keynesian economics gave us a post war period of unprecedented prosperity. And a time when we were the third wealthiest nation on earth, and a creditor one at that. All in the public record!

Since then we sold almost all the national estate, and now struggle with growing deficits!

I mean telecom alone used to provide consolidated revenue with around 7 billion annually? And the CBA a similar amount? Sell of your income streams and what else can you expect?

All the power authorities were once public entities, and as the first consequence industrial power and manufacture here was still affordable! Since then we've seen the wholesale flight of capital, manufacture and corporate tax liabilities.

And due, I believe, due to the most inept indolent politicians God ever put breath into, our best people and their better ideas soon followed.

Adrift in a world of ideas? Not us, we 're just adrift, with no competent helmsman at the rudder? And the oarsmen (idealogues) manning the ship of state are all rowing in opposite directions, figuratively speaking. Left, right, left, right.

And then we wonder why we with just one exception are the most overgoverned country on earth.
Rhrosty.
Posted by Rhrosty, Thursday, 14 January 2016 6:58:23 PM
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Jeo, yes ISIS is a example, so were Buddhist suicide bombers in Sri Lanka. Just about anywhere where nationalism and religion get mixed up ie Hindi nationalist, Christian identity movement.

And neither side of the political divide has a morgue on it. Wherever a group believes it has a divine right to discriminate against others or have special privileges, you will have trouble.
Posted by Cobber the hound, Friday, 15 January 2016 8:38:24 AM
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Hi Cobber,

Mortgage.

It's true what you say but a bit irrelevant.

Currently, in many, many parts of the world, from Nigeria to France to Turkey to Indonesia, ISIS is the fascist movement which exemplifies your comment, that " .... Wherever a group believes it has a divine right to discriminate against others or have special privileges, you will have trouble."

When Hindu terrorists or Buddhists terrorists carry out atrocities on the scale which ISIS and its affiliates are currently, then we can prattle on about equivalence. Until then, we focus on ISIS, isn't that right ?

Joe
Posted by Loudmouth, Friday, 15 January 2016 8:45:23 AM
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.

Dear Pete,

.

You published another article on your blog (http://petermulherin.net/?p=311#more-311) entitled “Evolution, Galileo & God”. The article begins as follows :

« Something that should have been mentioned in the first post in this series on atheism and Christianity is that I don’t think rational arguments … are in themselves enough to lead one to a Christian faith »

Another student, like yourself, posted a comment on this, asking why “you think that rational arguments are not sufficient to establish the truth of Christianity ?”

To which you replied :

« I believe this because I think it takes the heart as well as mind to have complete faith in the gospel. I think loving God with ‘heart, soul, and mind’ is needed. But maybe you’re right to an extent if we make a difference between saying ‘Christianity is true’, and ‘I’m a Christian’ »
.

I mention this because it places your second article (published here on OLO under the title “Western civilization is adrift in the world of ideas”, as well as in Quadrant Online and on your blog under the title “Thinking About the West”) in perspective.

In this latest article, you write :

« Uncoupled from religion for over a century, the Judeo-Christian ethical tradition which endured - albeit, once it had been absorbed into a secular, modernist rationale-is under existential threat from within »
.

There has probably been more change over the past century than there has been over the previous millennium. We changed from a chiefly rural-based to a chiefly urban-based social order. We emerged from illiteracy. The horses were replaced by automobiles and tractors. The aeroplane was invented. Radar was developed. The atomic bomb, transistor radios, computers, television, mobile telephones, the internet were all invented.

Women were granted the right to have a personal bank account without having to obtain prior authorisation from their husbands. They were granted the right to vote. Children were no longer considered the legal property of their father, and so on …

.

(Continued …)

.
Posted by Banjo Paterson, Friday, 15 January 2016 10:58:27 AM
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.

(Continued …)

.

Today we have 4 times more students attending a state school than we did 100 years ago. Back in 1915, 593,059 students attended a state school compared to 2,406,495 today.

There are also a lot more students attending private or catholic schools then there were 100 years ago, eight times more in fact. Back in 1915 only 156,106 attended a private or Catholic school, compared to 1,287,606 today.

100 years on, due to increased migration capacity, less residents of our population are Australian born than they were a century ago. Back in 1915 more than four in five (82 per cent) people were Australian-born. Over the century this figure has decreased to 71 per cent of the population.

Australia’s European-born population has also decreased from 15 per cent of the total population in 1915 to 10 per cent 100 years later.

University students in Australia increased from 2,465 to 1.2 million.

Consequently :

In 1915, the vast majority of the population (96 per cent) associated themselves with the Christian faith. In 2015 this has dropped to 61.1 per cent.

While all the mainstream religions other than Christianity have increased their share of the population, the option with the biggest increase has been “no religion” and “agnostic” having gone from 0.6 per cent a century ago to 22.5 per cent currently, an increase of more than 37 times.

The fastest growing religion in Australia today is Hinduism, followed by Islam and Buddhism. By 2070, Islam will have replaced Christianity as the largest religion in the world.

Christianity is fast losing ground in Australia and around the world.

Instead of bemoaning the waning of the “Judeo-Christian ethical tradition” you observe in “Western civilisation”, perhaps it’s time the “Judeo-Christians” took a hard look at what a culturally more developed and far more highly educated public is no longer willing to believe in this day and age.

That rules out most of the fairy tales in the bible. Plus much of what is not in the bible – such as the famous controversial doctrine of the Trinity, for example.

.
Posted by Banjo Paterson, Friday, 15 January 2016 11:03:34 AM
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Never mind that Quadrant promotes and is itself the home of a very hide-bound Western group-think.
Interesting start to the essay in its claim that we in the West are somehow "drifting in the world of ideas". This seems to suggest that the world-view promoted by Peter and his group-thinking fellow travellers is somehow ideology free - perhaps indicating that there is some kind of pre-existing "objectively" existed world "out there".

Strangely enough (but not really) such an unexamined presumption is entirely nihilistic, because it denies any kind of psychic depth or free open-ended psychic participation in the World-Process. What is "out there" is thus proposed as the measure of what is True or Real - meaning implying that the universe IS just a collection of dead rocks and dust. Simultaneously everything to do with the free soul or the human PSYCHE is crushed or reduced to dust too.

Peter also suggests that Christian-ISM is somehow ideology free too. Or not based on a set of now-archaic IDEAS about what we are as human beings, and of the nature of Reality altogether. Ideas which were formulated long ago in the childhood of humankind. Ideas which almost express a very materialist Victorian-era world-view too. Ideas that should have become obsolete when the archetypal equation E=MC2 first appeared. Even more so via the theory and findings of quantum physics.

Never mind too that there now more Christians in the world than ever before, both in total numbers and as a percentage of the total human population. And yet the humanly created world-mummery is becoming more and more insane every day. Furthermore most/all of the leading vectors of this now universal insanity are right-wing so called "conservative" Christians.
Indeed most of the worlds problems are now being caused by the back-to-the-past "traditionalists" of the three major Middle-Eastern so called "great" religions.
Posted by Daffy Duck, Friday, 15 January 2016 2:42:07 PM
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Christophobes still pouring out their anger and rants on the God they say they don't believe in. Oh well!
Posted by runner, Friday, 15 January 2016 5:16:10 PM
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Hi Duck,

You make the comment that:

" .... Interesting start to the essay in its claim that we in the West are somehow "drifting in the world of ideas". This seems to suggest that the world-view promoted by Peter and his group-thinking fellow travellers is somehow ideology free - perhaps indicating that there is some kind of pre-existing "objectively" existed world "out there". "

I like those "somehows" :) They are vital when one wishes to build a straw man.

Nothing is ideology-free. I don't know what they teach at uni these days but we learnt that every statement is loaded with ideology of some sort, even if speaker or writers aren't aware of it. You and me alike, Duck. Marx could have taught you that.

But one question intrigued me about your statement that " .... Indeed most of the world's problems are now being caused by the back-to-the-past "traditionalists" of the three major Middle-Eastern so called "great" religions."

: Did you have any particular version of any particular religion in mind ?

Hints: bombings; knifings; rape and enslavement of minority women; mass shootings; machine-gunning of children ?

Take your time: think about it. No rush.

Cheers,

Joe
Posted by Loudmouth, Friday, 15 January 2016 7:12:45 PM
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Good article. I agree that a dialogue on what constitutes Western values should take place. However, the left have no interest in dialogue. There is no reforming the left via any kind of discussion. The only way to defeat the left is to withdraw all public funding from the institutions in which they thrive.
Posted by Aristocrat, Friday, 15 January 2016 7:29:54 PM
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.

Dear Pete,

.

The truth of the matter is that the bible is simply an interesting anthology of Judeo-Christian mythology similar to Greek mythology and Norse mythology.

It should be classified in libraries and found on our bookshelves as such. It should be studied for the important role it plays in the formation of Western culture.

Obviously, it will take time for that to happen, but time is of the essence if Christianity is to survive.

If that is what you want, Pete, allow me to suggest that Christianity will always have a place in Western culture if we accept it and learn to respect it for what it really is.

I am confident the truth will prevail.

It’s up to you and others of your generation to make that happen.

.
Posted by Banjo Paterson, Friday, 15 January 2016 7:43:24 PM
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“The West is very much adrift” and has been set adrift from its once secure moorings
By both a religious idea- “the Brotherhood of man”

And the same idea, basically, from the secular left hippy side.”love and peace brother,”
Which also translates in the Universities as the secular,”Human Rights, tolerance etc.

These two ideas are not based on fact, they are in fact, ideology.
Taught in churches and schools to try and change basic human biological behaviour so that the world will
Conform to this lovely idea of how we all wish it could be.

In factual biology, I know for certain that a man or woman who has lived in
A country far away is genetically not as close as my real brother or sister
Or members of my immediate tribe. Therefore when economic disaster strikes
And a fight for territory ensues, It is my immediate tribe I will fight to protect
And those who are genetically thousands of years unrelated, will be the
Enemy,and they will be equally determined to ethnically cleanse my immediate biological
Bloodline off the land and take the remaining resources, as well.

No brotherhood of man in existence in this situation.
It is real biological brothers who will protect each other not ideological brothers.

Nature sets the survival rules, not the church, or the hippy love and peace, leftists.

What they teach are fairy tales and they have set a once great Empire adrift from
It's own people, culture and loyalties,leading slowly to its ultimate demise.
Posted by CHERFUL, Saturday, 16 January 2016 4:52:23 PM
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Hi Cherful,

What you say is right up to a point. But in the modern world, given that there is no 'genetic memory', that people are scattered all over the world and usually through no fault of their own personally, migrants to Australia come here, on the whole, to make the best of the opportunities here.

I don't think - given that we are talking about perhaps hundreds of different, disparate, unconnected groups - that the vast majority of migrants represent any sort of threat to Australia. In fact, again given that so many groups are genetically very distinct from the 'old' stock of Australians, that intermarriage would be the most wonderful advantage, that - as Darwin pointed out - 'hybrids' would most certainly inherit the best, the most attractive etc., of both groups involved. Difference in that case would enrich Austalia immensely. I wish I could live long enough to see my beautiful very-mixed great-great-grandkids.

Joe
Posted by Loudmouth, Saturday, 16 January 2016 5:45:54 PM
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Cherful, just what century are you living in?
As Loudmouth says, the world is a very mixed place now, and mad wars over land and between 'tribes' are usually contained in third world countries.
Where do you live?
Posted by Suseonline, Sunday, 17 January 2016 4:11:35 AM
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"What they teach are fairy tales and they have set a once great Empire adrift from
It's own people, culture and loyalties,leading slowly to its ultimate demise."
In a century far, far away..
Posted by nicknamenick, Sunday, 17 January 2016 6:09:19 AM
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Loudmouth,
I do agree with you, that intermarriage between the different races
Will produce a stronger more resilient race.
The trouble is if you say that, there are many who want to accuse you
Of racism for even mentioning that kind of integration.

Although it seems to me the racism is squarely on the other foot with
These people, and what they want to pursue is a segregated tribal culture
You know the one, where Muslim daddy is horrified if his daughter wants
To marry a non Arab muslim and promptly ships the daughter off for a holiday to
Iran to marry her off.
Jewish mother goes into meltdown when her son becomes engaged to an Australian
Girl.
But this behaviour is not just practised by the religious groups,it's been documented
Throughout history in lots of non religious groups too. Including the whites
And the blacks.
The Greeks did it too, when they first came here.

If there is enough time and prosperity here for that kind of intergration to occur.
Then I have no worries or objections to multiculturalism.

If it doesn't occur and even one tribe ever gets big enough opposing numbers
To challenge for control then we will see civil war, and Australia divided up
Into 2 countries.

That’s exactly the inherent danger with multi tribalism.
Which is what I keep trying to make people see, so we can foster integration
And avoid future conflict and bloodshed.

Multiculturalism won't work unless we look at the ways it will work
And work at promoting that cohesion and behaviour.
Start with the truth and go from there.

Inbred anything is weak, hurrah, for intermarriage and the strong beautiful
Race it will result in.
Added bonus,no war and conflict like we see in other countries.
Posted by CHERFUL, Sunday, 17 January 2016 4:55:47 PM
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Loudmouth,
One other point.

You say, there is no genetic memory.

But there is basic biology.
Basic biology in all species, including the human species,
Dictates that we will protect our biological offspring(children)
With every resource we can provide, even our lives if necessary.

We recognise that our children,our brothers and sisters,parents
Aunts and uncles, cousins, and our immediate bloodline through tribal
Intermarriage are the closest kin and our biology drives us to provide
For and protect them first. It's basically a race for genetic immortality.

We need no genetic memory. Or a genetic geaneology science book, to
Know who those people are. It is immediately obvious.
Posted by CHERFUL, Sunday, 17 January 2016 5:10:31 PM
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Hi Cherful,

Urban Indigenous people have an inter-marriage rate of more than 90 %.

Amongst Muslims, there are so many groups - Sunni and Shia, and sub-groups within those, based on place of origin, sect and so on. A Shia family may disapprove of a marriage with a Sunni. An Arab Sunni family may disapprove of a marriage with a non-Arab. A Lebanese family may disapprove of a marriage with, say, an Indonesian. I'd suggest that there aren't too many marriages between Muslims from the Middle East and Muslims from sub-Saharan Africa.

On the other hand, many Muslims would be quite comfortable with such marriages - people marrying other people who they love and want to spend their lives with.

As well, many Muslims would be quite comfortably integrated with the general Australian population rather than with any particular micro-community. So the Muslim 'community' is really a great number of 'communities'.

It's a bit like the way Australians may perceive Africans in Australia, as if they are all from one single 'community', when in reality, of course, it depends where they come from in Africa - and Africa is a huge continent. There are many different Sudanese groups, for example, some of whom don't get on too well. And, of course, some do.

Similarly Latin Americans. Similarly 'Asians'. Those we may perceive as 'Indians' probably don't speak the same Indian languages, except English.

So multiculturalism has meant perhaps thousands of different groups, all in varying degrees of integration with the general Australian population, often inter-marrying, perhaps second- or third- or fourth-generation. Many Chinese can trace their ancestry in Australia back for maybe eight generations. It's a technicolor world, and non-Anglos would know that far better than Anglos, because after all, Australia has always been a multicultural world for them.

Cheers,

Joe
Posted by Loudmouth, Sunday, 17 January 2016 5:21:29 PM
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Suesonline
“Mad wars over land and between tribes are usually contained
To third world countries”.

How do you then explain the guerilla warlike attacks (Terror attacks)
In European and Western countries by a group that wants world
Control(a caliphate world wide)
Hitler wanted world control too. Same as Isis, only not covered by a religious
Smokescreen.

I’d call them territorial attacks not terror attacks.
You think my use of the word tribe is a primitive term that no longer applies.

I think the word ethnic is a term used by the academics and supremacists
thinkers who can't stand having the word tribal associated with themselves.

Sort of the same way as the British looked down their noses at primitive tribes
To whom they thought they were extremely advanced and superior. They
Still see tribes as inferior that's why they won't describe themselves as being
from a tribe. Ironical isn't it when they are always holier than thou
About supremacist thinking in other people.

It suits the societal engineering of the left hippy mob,to push the word ethnic
So they can promote genetic links to all mankind and push their brotherhood
Of man ideology.

However, it is more revealing as to what is happening in the world to use
The word tribe.
For instance, the war in Palestine, is a bloody territorial dogfight over the
Land, between the Palestinian Arab tribe and Israelie tribe.

Wars and civil wars over control of land finished?after happening non
Stop across history right up until the present day.
I don't think so.

Human tribes are as territorial as any lion in Africa and for the same reasons.
Posted by CHERFUL, Sunday, 17 January 2016 9:29:26 PM
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