The National Forum   Donate   Your Account   On Line Opinion   Forum   Blogs   Polling   About   
The Forum - On Line Opinion's article discussion area



Syndicate
RSS/XML


RSS 2.0

Main Articles General

Sign In      Register

The Forum > Article Comments > Submission > Comments

Submission : Comments

By Jonathan J. Ariel, published 18/11/2015

In Michel Houellebecq's Submission, a novel set in 2022 France, an Islamic political party takes power and turns the country in the direction of Mecca

  1. Pages:
  2. 1
  3. 2
  4. 3
  5. 4
  6. 5
  7. All
The values the French need to defend are those won via bloody civil war and are Liberty, fraternity, equality, democracy. Christianity is littered with historical examples of barbarism and bloodyminded daring do that would likely make this most recent attack; look like fist fight at a sunday school picnic in any fair comparison?

Fanaticism did not start and end with muslim extremism!

For mine the only people ever defeated are those that quit,Therefore we must take this bloody struggle in all its forms and guises Up to these extremists, Until they all join their evil master in hell, the only place where these criminal monsters belong, along with those with the power of the pen advocate on their behalf.

This extremism, by the way just does not include all muslims, given some of them are also in the firing line!

Make no mistake this is a life and death struggle for a lot more than mere wealth ,control or influence!

And better fought if all those under attack become a band of brothers fighting a common enemy, rather than one another and over petty differences.
Rhrosty
Posted by Rhrosty, Wednesday, 18 November 2015 10:01:25 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
We certainly are going to have to start waging war against Islam. Clowns like the French ambassador and Western polticians need to have decisions taken away from them and handed over to people who actually understand Islam and the fact that terrorism is part of the Islamic credo in its bid for global domination. All this yabber about 'death cults' and 'moderate' Muslims is crap. Do these jerks who are supposed to protecting the West really think that moderate Germans actually wanted to kill and be killed in WW2? No. But they did what they were told to do, as will non-terror Muslims when the time comes. If Hitler could stir up the masses, what do they think the mad mullahs and Allah will be able to do?
Posted by ttbn, Wednesday, 18 November 2015 10:45:14 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Things are changing so rapidly that it is impossible to predict what the humanly created world-mummery will look like even in a years time. One thing that IS guaranteed that the world wide situation WILL be worse, as all the powerful formative negative undercurrents play out their psychotic dramas on to the world stage.

There are dozens of prophetic writers and novelists who have predicted the inevitability of the current dark dystopian situation.
Two of the original examples were of course Aldous Huxley via his Brave New World, and George Orwell via 1984. We are of course now living in a closed situation like rats-in-a-trap which combines the prophetic scenarios predicted/described in both books. The situation is described by Chris Hedges in this essay.
http://www.commondreams.org/views/2010/12/27/2011-brave-new-dystopia

Meanwhile I find the insights into the origins and future consequences of the current situation found in the book The Long Emergency by James Howard Kunstler which can be found on his website. It is interesting that he wrote a novel Clusterf-ck Nation which this puritanical site censored or would not allow.
Posted by Daffy Duck, Wednesday, 18 November 2015 11:09:27 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
In the book of the religion of peace, many verses are 'abrogated' - that is, a later verse nullifies an earlier verse. Thus, the unchangeable word of allah, handed down to Muhammad, has been changed many times as allah re-phrases his unchangeable instructions to Muhammad, 113 times by this verse alone, the 'Verse of the Sword':

"But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practise regular charity, then open the way for them: for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful."

Allah the merciful: well thank Christ for that.

On this web-site below, is a list of the original verses and their replacements (you can make you own mind up as to whether the later verses are more in line with a religion of peace or a brutal religion of war:

http://wikiislam.net/wiki/List_of_Abrogations_in_the_Qur'an

Questions: who does the abrogating ? Allah, Mohammad or some bunch of imams and emirs long after Muhammad's death ? Do hadiths abrogate Koranic verses, long, long after Muhammad's death ? Does allah still have any more after-thoughts left ?

Mind you, what's left unabrogated was often pretty awful, brutal, merciless, so ISIS has plenty to go on with.

Joe
Posted by Loudmouth, Wednesday, 18 November 2015 1:11:34 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Joe,

Remember the passages in the Koran are not in chronological order like most books. They go from largest to smallest, if my memory serves me well. So, I don't know that we can be sure that anything has been abrogated. The other problem is, of course, that the high poobahs of Islam say that the Koran can be read only in Arabic, and that Arabic is an archaic version not used by Arabs today. Over 90% of Muslims don't know Arabic, or at least the version used in the Koran. Most Muslims do not or cannot read the Koran or Hadiths in any language. They are just told what's in it by the imams and mullahs. No matter what the average Muslim or even scholarly infidels say, they will always be told that they have misinterpreted the the words. Bit like the old bible written in Latin by the Catholic priests. The sheep had to take his word for what was in it, and that was that.

Cheers,
franc
Posted by ttbn, Wednesday, 18 November 2015 2:55:42 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
ttbn,

You are right that the Koran isn't in chronological order. The chapters are in size order. Since it wasn't originally written down (Mo being illiterate) it had to committed to memory and, apparently, it's easier to memorise these things from largest to smallest.

Nonetheless, its not that hard to reorder them chronologically. According to Hirsi Ali, among many others, the critical thing is to separate those parts which were written in Mecca from those written in Medina. In Mecca the Muhammadans were in the minority and consequently the Koran from that period is all about getting along - love thy neighbour type stuff.

But they were in charge in Medina and this is where the parts of the Koran relied on by ISIL et al comes from. His followers at the time recognised there were inconsistencies in the revelations so the abrogation idea was instituted which basically says that whatever was the most recent revelation takes precedence.

It creates problems in understanding Islam but it also gives the apologists much scope to mislead. They can point to the peaceful, loving texts (usually from Mecca) to claim this is the true Islam without acknowledging that those texts have been abrogated.
Posted by mhaze, Wednesday, 18 November 2015 3:58:26 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Hi ttbn, mhaze,

So it's a bit like the position of the Bible in, say, 1450, before the invention of the printing press in Europe ? The Muslim world didn't have a single printing press until 1824 (Jack Goody, I think).

But information is now far, far easier to come by, everywhere - for that, one doesn't need a printing press, just a mobile. And of course, many Muslims these days would be literate anyway, and be able to read English or French or Bahasa.

Well, those are signs of hope.

Would it be easier to learn longer surahs than shorter ones ? That doesn't sound plausible: surely it's easier to learn Baa Baa Black Sheep than The Ancient Mariner ?

On one Google site, by the way, it was claimed that the whole idea of abrogation is a lie, that all the surahs, no matter how contradictory, are as originally passed down.

So, again like the Bible, there is something for everyone in the Koran - for ISIS, AND for the men of 'peace'. Anybody can take their lead from it: just pick out what you like.

If this is so, then there must be scope for any believer to interpret the Koran as he or she wishes, and tell anybody holding a contradictory interpretation to bugger off.

Another sign of hope :)

Thanks again,

Joe
Posted by Loudmouth, Wednesday, 18 November 2015 4:30:26 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Islam has been at war since the 7th century, what the West mistakenly assumed to be 'peace' was simply an unofficial truce because of the civilised world's superior firepower.
Surveys have demonstrated that many so-called 'moderate' Muslims support Sharia and other Islamic horrors and Muslim communities in the West provide an inexhaustible supply of instant jihadis. So whether or not the majority of Muslims is peaceful and law abiding is really irrelevant in the long term.

Of course the other threat is presented by the constant accommodation to Muslims' demands by the multi-culti clique of useful idiots.
Posted by mac, Wednesday, 18 November 2015 5:02:23 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Mac you are correct when you talk of what the West considers a gesture of "peace" from Muslims in the context of armed conflict.

In fact the Arabic word for that behaviour is 'hudna". It does not as Westerners believe mean "peace" or "ceasefire" or such like in response to the counter party's superior firepower or better argument.

Instead it means "calm" or what some of us may call "time out". Doing so does not mean the Muslims are yielding one jot.

Instead they are merely taking the time to regroup, rearm and in time reterorrise.
Posted by Jonathan J. Ariel, Thursday, 19 November 2015 7:26:06 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
In the cause of Islamo-deconstruction, or Islamocritica, I've been puzzling about Muhammad (assuming he existed) and his earlier life. He was a trader, presumably in incense (see http://nabataea.net/trader.html ), so is it really possible that he could have been illiterate, and innumerate ? Really ? A trader in a pretty tough environment, and with a limited range of goods which could just as well have been transported by sea ?

Then there's how he is supposed to have died. Supposedly, on his death-bed, he flew on a winged horse to Jerusalem and climbed up Jacob's Ladder, the only way - in the Jewish view - to reach heaven. So the Jewish belief was taken up 100 % by the early Muslims ? And that, and only that, is why Jerusalem is supposed to be so sacred to Muslims, - it now belongs to them because Muhammad went there on a winged horse ?

Well, I hope the Grand Mufti stays well and doesn't have to get on a winged wombat to fly him to the Opera House.

The Koran contains such a jumble of contradictory clauses, verses, that anybody can quote from it for whatever purpose they like. Some clerics believe that, by a process of abrogation, one can comfortably read it and ignore the verses that one doesn't agree with. If so, it would be great if people could read a version of the Koran without the nasty bits: to help this along, here is a sample list of abrogations:

http://wikiislam.net/wiki/List_of_Abrogations_in_the_Qur'an

Clearly, in light of the atrocities being committed in its name, Islam desperately needs reform, and abrogation of the more violent verses in the Koran would be a start. Muslims need our sympathy and support in their long road to clean out the rubbish that the Islamo-fascists rely on.

Joe
Posted by Loudmouth, Thursday, 19 November 2015 8:34:25 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
In the 1980s a movie appeared called RED DAWN. its premise was that the US was overtaken by the Soviet Union in a conventional war and a group of teenagers led by Patrick Swayze were the only thing existing that could prevent an absolute total soviet domination. They eventually form a guerilla group, fight back and single handedly defeat the soviets.
Until i read this review it had It remained for me THE most ludicrous premise for a piece of fiction i had ever come across.
just take a moment to think about this.
in 2022 a Muslim party gains a majority in the French parliament. a majority! in a French parliament!!
Which parallel universe does Mr Ariel inhabit? certainly not the universe that the rest of us inhabit. the chances of this scenario occurring a hundred years from now are just slightly more than zero. but 7 years from now?
So Mr Ariel proceeds to build a straw man based upon a novel with a premise so ludicrous that it is laughable, and then warns that the sky is about to fall in because of the lessons learnt from this Alice In Wonderland scenario.
Give me a break
Posted by Shalmaneser, Monday, 23 November 2015 11:34:09 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Greetings Shalmaneser,

Judging by your comments not only have you not read the book, but you attribute comments to me which I neither made nor implied.

You state that I said that “in 2022 a Muslim party gains a majority in the French parliament. a majority! in a French parliament!!
Which parallel universe does Mr Ariel inhabit? certainly not the universe that the rest of us inhabit”

I believe I said said they take power. Never did I say they win a majority.
They take power by forming an alliance with everyone other than Marine Le Pen’s Front National. The other major parties, being the socialists (bonjour Francois Hollande!) and the centrists would be in opposition without getting into bed with the Muslim rothers.

The price for having the Muslim Brothers join is to allow them to introduce Shari’a. A small price given most French are apathetic.

Anyone who has been to France, the Benelux countries or Sweden can see this locomotive of change steaming along very nicely.

Merci.
Posted by Jonathan J. Ariel, Monday, 23 November 2015 4:10:57 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Oh, please!

>>The price for having the Muslim Brothers join is to allow them to introduce Shari’a. A small price given most French are apathetic.<<

Apathetic? Nom d'un chien! France must be one of the least politically-apathetic of all European countries. Have a dip into Frank L. Wilson's "French Politics and Society" - the chapter "Political Demonstrations in France: Protest Politics Or Politics of Ritual?" is entertaining, as well as informative.

But it is simpler than that: France has a well-deserved reputation, built over centuries, of public political activism.

"The country has a long tradition of sometimes-radical political protests, one that goes back to at least the 19th century."

http://www.vox.com/2015/7/6/8887667/france-protest

Sorry, Jonathan J. Ariel, any credibility you may have thought you had just flew out of the window.
Posted by Pericles, Monday, 23 November 2015 10:42:49 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
On the other hand, Pericles, Jeremy Corbyn is calling for negotiations with ISIS. A willingness to negotiate is usually accompanied by the willingness to give the other party something. What is Corbyn willing to give to ISIS, on behalf of the Syrian and Iraqi people ? Will he visit Syria and Iraq to try to gain support amongst the millions in refugee camps for his stance ? I'd like to see that.

Corbyn represents a class, somewhere above the working class, and below any business, capitalist or landed classes. Whom he represents tend to be, these days, relatively 'well-educated': professional people and university students. This would be the class which Houllebecq is suggesting may be somewhat ambivalent about Islamist terrorism - they rank it as less of a priority than global warming or, say, homosexual marriage. They see the extreme Right, such as those supporting Farage or le Pen as a bigger danger.

Houllebecq is suggesting that the intellectual classes and the Islamists will come to work together to oppose le Pen. I don't want to agree with him fully: as you say, the French have a long history of political sophistication.

But Corbyn seems to have started on that course. The question is: will the intellectuals follow ? And then go further ? And if so, will they eventually capitulate to the Islamists ? Un Nouvelle Trahison des Clercs ? After all, that way at least, their heads could be the last to roll, unless they have sisters to sell ?

Joe
www.firstsources.info
Posted by Loudmouth, Tuesday, 24 November 2015 7:53:43 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Sorry, UNE Trahison des Clercs. I always had trouble with the gender of French nouns.

I can't do any better than Pascal Bruckner's defence of Ayaan Hirsi Ali, nine years ago now, just after her friend Theo van Gogh had been murdered:

http://www.signandsight.com/features/1146.html

The intellectual class is a very volatile one: it includes some of the very best and bravest human beings in any society. But it neither controls society, nor produces much that it needs, and in this relatively powerless position, it tends to get impatient - in two senses:

* it is impatient with the pace of the revolutionary changes which are vital for its Bright New Future;

* and it is impatient with what it sees as the obtuseness and blatant self-interest of all other classes, from bogans out in the burbs to big-bellied capitalists up-town. And the mark of a fully-fledged member of this class is his or her superior ability, even at twenty or twenty five, to know what is good for all of society, even if it likes it or not. Hence the supreme arrogance of those Q&A tweets.

At 73, been there, done that. It's taken more than fifty years to realise how little I know now compared to then, and how fundamentally decent most people are, more so than I thought fifty years ago. So I have some confidence that most Australians will not ever buckle to any amount of terrorism, no matter what advice their betters offer them.

Joe
Posted by Loudmouth, Tuesday, 24 November 2015 9:49:06 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
An intriguing juxtaposition of thoughts, Loudmouth.

>>On the other hand, Pericles, Jeremy Corbyn is calling for negotiations with ISIS.<<

>>But Corbyn seems to have started on that course. The question is: will the intellectuals follow<<

Corbyn represents the intellectualism - if it can be called that - of the UK's 1960s left-wing. Blinded by a sanctimonious ideology, their capacity for thinking in terms of logical consequences to practical actions is heavily circumscribed by infantilist idealism.

The logic - that a political solution is preferable to a violent one - would be impeccable, of course, if there were a clearly identifiable entity that is ISIS. And that this clearly identifiable body has a head, with which negotiations can take place. And that once negotiations have taken place, a solution could be implemented that both "sides" would adhere to.

These aren't Trades Unions. They are an amorphous mass of happenstance terrorist groups, who are "united" in one aspect only: their desire to inflict as much harm on our way of life as possible. They don't even have an identifiable ideology that they follow; their professed religion does not condone mass slaughter and rape, yet they pretend that it does.

We (that is, the relatively civilized part of society) has yet to work out how to address a conflict that is so asymmetric, not only in the sense of combating largely guerrilla tactics, but also in the asymmetry of the political situation.

Simply put, there is no body with which to negotiate. For Jeremy Corbyn to suggest that negotiation is even an option here, fails the simplest reality check. He's a danger to himself and others.
Posted by Pericles, Tuesday, 24 November 2015 11:19:50 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
I am an Australian resident but staying in Germany since two years now, and I have read Houllebecq.

What he is writing is true for Germany as well, and here we had Sharia police patrolling the streets of Wuppertal suggesting to women on the street it might be advisable to wear a head scarf. We had large signs on bridges over freeways saying: Your children will pray to Allah or they will die, and we have the occassional speaker in some inner cities on Saturday morning telling the crowd: Islam is coming and your daughter will wear a burqa and she will marry a bearded man, no way around it, since you (Germans) have one child and a puppy dog while I have four wifes and 24 children.
I could go on like that.

Still most people don't wake up to that, or they are worried but think, it will go away, or it will hopefully not affect me. Now better back to the shopping list for the party tonight ...

Those in charge are clueless but interestingly enough Australia is mentioned here more often now. There are even some first politicians talking about the Australian model for a refugee policy. Of course they are being labelled Nazis then, but things are changing. Even some left-wingers have mentioned Australia lately.

I'd like to mention that in order to make Australians aware of that and suggest to watch the situation in Western Europe closely. It might well be that Abbott might get a late justification for his refugee policy. (Not that I am a fan of Abbott).

If some of you might be tempted to ask for a change in Australia's refugee policy since it is to cruel (what it is without question) you might also closely follow the events in Western Europe for the next few months. We are only at the beginning.

Not we, but they I should say. My permanent residency for Australia has never been as valuable as today.
Posted by renysol, Saturday, 5 December 2015 8:37:54 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
renysol,

Very interesting comments.
(1) The MSM here in Australia doesn't supply much information about the political and social impact of high Muslim refugee intakes on European countries.
(2) Some leftist commentators don't seem to realise for example, that Sweden, the exemplar of compassionate, open door policies, has effectively closed its borders, even the Swedes have finally faced reality.
(3) Too many people in the West are naive in regard to Muslim demands for superior status and their rejection of liberal democracy.
Posted by mac, Saturday, 5 December 2015 10:22:28 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Hi mac,

Yes, by this time next year, 1.5 million refugees will have flooded into Europe from Turkey/Greece, and perhaps as many from the southern shore of the Mediterranean.

If ISIS gets a strong foothold in Libya, those figures across the Mediterranean will rise dramatically, as a part of deliberate ISIS policy - to hustle as many people from the south through Libya and across the Sea as possible, as quickly as possible.

The next elections for the European parliament may be a bitterly-fought campaign - as Houllebecq suggests - but will the centre swing to the extreme right, i.e. capitulate to the Islamists, or merely to the conservative right, to the parties of le Pen, Farage, Wilders ? The current governments in Poland, the Baltics, Hungary, don't seem too enthusiastic about ever-more refugee intakes.

So suppose, against Houllebecq, the 'mob' swings to National Fronts, etc. ? Could the European parliament grow a pair and firm up its policy against uncontrolled refugee intakes ? Or will it roll over ? In relation to the ISIS-promoted 'invasion' from the three-thousand-mile southern shores of the Mediterranean, across to Europe's soft underbelly, will the newly-backboned EU then find that, quickly, it will have to invade that entire southern coast-line, in order to control it ?

Yes, it's a dreadfully complicated world.

Cheers,

Joe
Posted by Loudmouth, Saturday, 5 December 2015 11:35:52 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Loudmouth,

Yes, it's a dreadfully complicated world, made much more complicated, particularly in Europe, by that continent's political elites, who seem determined to run an uncontrolled social experiment and then hope for the best. The Turks appear to have successfully extorted concessions from the Eurocrats----visa free entry into the EU and a fast track for Turkey's membership. There must be very few times in history where states have capitulated to far weaker opponents because of lack of will.

The other obvious problem is that the Left, such as it is these days, has wilfully ignored the real totalitarian nature of Islam and left the realistic debate to the Right. The Eastern Europeans are not going to accept large numbers of Muslim refugees, they have long memories.

Regards

Russell.
Posted by mac, Saturday, 5 December 2015 5:15:36 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Hi Mac,

Yes, I think it's time to clarify who is Right, and who is supporting the extreme Right. There is no real Left any more, only apologists for the extreme Right Islamists - and the Right such as le Pen, Farage, Wilders, the Eastrn European governments , and (I suspect0 the ordinary masses of Europeans).

After all, surely, nobody is claiming that somehow the Islamists are 'Left' ? Christ, even they wouldn't be that hypocritical, only the children of the pseudo-Left are going to fall for that.

So perhaps we need to stress as often as possible that Islamists are far to the Right of what is considered the Right-wing in Europe. Le Pen, Farage and Wilders are, in fact, the champions of the New Post-Left.

You know it makes sense.

Cheers,

Joe
Posted by Loudmouth, Saturday, 5 December 2015 6:52:07 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
LM

As to your - in my opinion correct - point on Islamists being on the (far) right and nobody honestly claiming they are of the left, perhaps for clarity you could adopt a term rarely used these days in the mainstream media, but succinct in its meaning: "Islamofascists".
Posted by Jonathan J. Ariel, Sunday, 13 December 2015 7:43:24 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Hi Jonathan,

Yes, I've used that term myself a few times and it is used in this fascinating book:

http://www.conflicts.rem33.com/images/books/Ibn%20Warraq%20-%20Why%20I%20Am%20Not%20a%20Muslim.pdf

I guess the questions is whether ISIS and similar groups are some sort of fascist off-shoot of Islam, or is Islam itself at least totalitarian, certainly in many of its expressions in the modern world.

Joe
Posted by Loudmouth, Sunday, 13 December 2015 10:53:04 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
LM

Thanks for the link to the book. Apparently Christopher Hitchens claimed it was his favourite book on Islam.

That's a good enough recommendation for me to read it.
Posted by Jonathan J. Ariel, Monday, 14 December 2015 2:45:06 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Hi Jonathan,

In that case, I'll read it twice.

Joe
Posted by Loudmouth, Monday, 14 December 2015 3:06:07 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
  1. Pages:
  2. 1
  3. 2
  4. 3
  5. 4
  6. 5
  7. All

About Us :: Search :: Discuss :: Feedback :: Legals :: Privacy