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The Forum > Article Comments > Wind farms use fossil fuels for construction and operation > Comments

Wind farms use fossil fuels for construction and operation : Comments

By Gary Johns, published 29/7/2015

James Hansen, the former NASA climate scientist, wrote in 2011: 'Suggesting that renewables will let us phase out rapidly fossil fuels is almost the equivalent of believing in the Easter bunny.'

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///I think you're making up the claim that Amory Lovins says there's no real need for power at night. Is your comprehension so poor that you think that's what "there's no real need for baseload" means?

I think Keith Lovegrove put it best:
"People made plants that weren't very good at ramping up and down, looked for things to do with them and called them baseload".///
Nukes can be made to ramp up and down, nukes can also provide baseload that plugs into all today's night-time energy markets like off-peak (yes, created for plants that didn't ramp very well) and of course charging electric cars.

Lovegrove's quote typifies many who want to call RELIABLE electricity at night superfluous. Tell that to your German solar power owner when the nation's RE drops to 5% of capacity for weeks at a time!
Posted by Max Green, Thursday, 6 August 2015 11:08:28 AM
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Max, the 'many who want to call RELIABLE electricity at night superfluous" don't actually exist!

But there is no need for electricity to continue to be (or in some cases, resume being) cheaper at night than during the day.

BTW Lovegrove's area of expertise is solar thermal. Providing reliable electricity at night is his objective.
Posted by Aidan, Thursday, 6 August 2015 12:02:40 PM
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See my post below for details of Europe and world wide renewable electrical power generation.

http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=6942&page=7
Posted by warmair, Thursday, 6 August 2015 12:24:11 PM
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Max, I favor the approach of more efficient energy use and more renewable sources to reduce carbon emissions, not attempt to replace them completely in the foreseeable future. Fossil fuels should be reserved for those applications where they are difficult to replace, such as for transport. The most polluting fossil fuels should be reduced where it is easiest to do so, such as eliminating the use of brown coal for electricity generation.

Renewable energy sources, such as wind farms, can be used to replace some electricity supply and as storage options become available, they can be used for more of the base load. It would be preferable if this was done through a market mechanism, such as price on CO2 emissions.

Off grid is not currently an option as storage is too expensive. A continent-wide super-grid would not be worth the investment, as it will likely to obsolete before it can be built. Instead renewable energy can be used to supplement fossil fuels.

Electric cars are not worth the investment. Promoting public transport would a cost effective way to reduce carbon emissions from transport, even with conventional fossil fuel buses. One simple option is to paint bus-lanes on existing roads to make public transport more efficient and displace some cars. The autonomous technology now being incorporated into cars will also allow us to within ten years have a driver-less uber-like mini-bus service using the same bus-lanes.

ps: I teach how to reduce energy use using computers: http://www.tomw.net.au/ict_sustainability/introduction.shtml
Posted by tomw, Thursday, 6 August 2015 1:57:41 PM
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///The autonomous technology now being incorporated into cars will also allow us to within ten years have a driver-less uber-like mini-bus service using the same bus-lanes.///
I love this, especially the idea of driver-less and *much* cheaper taxis as the 'security blanket' for those nervous to go without a car at the moment. Investments in public transport should be massively improved, not just from a climate perspective but from the perspective of designing a more energy and traffic efficient city! If we all had cars and we all had charge, how are we going to get anywhere as Sydney hits 6 or 7 or 8 million people? (Not that I want it to get that big, but it seems inevitable with current government policy).

Transport as a service, rather than an individually owned vehicle. That's the meme to get out there! Car brands didn't make the top 20 coolest brands list with young people in Europe. Why drive when you could be in the back of a bus catching up on facebook?
http://www.theguardian.com/cities/2015/apr/30/have-we-really-reached-peak-car

But energy efficiency? It's always over-rated in these studies. Always. Don't forget Jevon's Paradox, which even the UN admitted means energy efficiency programs are limited by human behaviour which makes more use of *cheaper* energy to have an even better lifestyle, and even though that energy is now stretched further and doing more, we respond to the cheaper price signal and use more. It reduces the final energy saved.

Basically, we can supply all that, quickly, through clean SAFE nuclear energy! (Which is *thousands* of times safer than coal: so safe I don't know why people are not screaming *for* nuclear energy and against coal!)
Posted by Max Green, Thursday, 6 August 2015 6:21:23 PM
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Max, I am not sure we will be able to convince many Australians to do without a car, nor do we need to: we just have to stop them driving their cars as much. This is where public transport can help. You may have a car, but if you know you will be driving on a congested road (or a toll road), while the buses whiz past in their own lanes and you will not be able to find anywhere to park (or have to pay a lot), then perhaps you will leave the car at home.

I have just come back from a trip to Guangzhou, HK and London, so have seen how Sydney can have transport when it has a larger population. These cities have extensive underground metros and toll roads, which are expensive and controversial to build. But they also have buses, mini-buses and maxi-taxis, which are not. Cambridge even has a guided bus-way: http://blog.tomw.net.au/2015/07/longest-guided-busway.html

In teaching about energy efficiency, I remind students about the importance of considering human behavior. In green IT we have what I call the "beer fridge effect". This is where you buy a new fridge because it is efficient, but then keep the old one in the pool room for the beer. The result is you use more energy. The IT version is that you replace your old computers with more efficient ones, but then pass the old ones on to someone else who uses them: http://www.tomw.net.au/ict_sustainability/materials.shtml

I am not a big fan of nuclear energy, partly because of the safety issues and the capital costs, but also because it provides a false hope of cheap energy. What we need to do is accept energy will cost money and so use it sparingly.
Posted by tomw, Friday, 7 August 2015 11:04:12 AM
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