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The Forum > Article Comments > The ABC in deepest, darkest doo-doo land > Comments

The ABC in deepest, darkest doo-doo land : Comments

By Don Aitkin, published 30/6/2015

The more I look at what the ABC actually does, in the domain of news and cultural affairs, I come back to the view that the staff must see their role as to preserve what they see as the correct perspective on Australia and life generally.

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Your forgetting about a thing called free speech.
It was Voltaire who said that I may not agree with what you say but i will defend your right to say it.
If you were to ban such idiots from having their say where do you draw the line, ban anybody that disagrees with the government or your particular point of view. It is a slippery slope once free speech is not guaranteed.
The question that should be asked is, if this idiot was supporting a terrorist organisation why was he not arrested and read his rights then and there?
Posted by ponde, Tuesday, 30 June 2015 9:15:35 AM
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The ABC agrees with free speech as long as they decide who gets free speech, and those chosen are the adhrents of the Left and now, judging by recent advents, complete lunatics, with one conservative for the lunatics and the larger part of the audience to sneer and jeer at.
Posted by ttbn, Tuesday, 30 June 2015 9:29:05 AM
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The ABC needs balance. I don't know how to do it because the culture from top to bottom is far left, Greenie. Some how,wirther all of them should be replaced with presenters and journalists who are competent at their profession (i.e. not political advocates) OR half the presenters and journalists (virtually all of whom are of far left persuasion) need to be replaced with presenters and journalists who As far to the right as the ABC's current crop are to the Left.

The Left wing bias needs to be stopped. Or ABC becomes funded on a donations basis from those who want their partisan biased advocacy.
Posted by Peter Lang, Tuesday, 30 June 2015 9:34:51 AM
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Ponde, he wasn't arrested because he did nothing wrong. Well spotted.

ttbn, how curious that you argue for free speech by arguing against the free speech of those who disagree with you.

Peter, I think you're probably right about the overall political affiliation of the ABC staff, but I think it goes further than your argument. Australian journalism in general is a domain of so-called "progressive" politics by virtue of the self-selection into journalism of young people, mostly women, who want to "change the world" and then rapidly become exposed to the idea that it is possible to "frame debates" to do just that. Then they discover the political parties are now among the largest employers of journalistic talent and they learn that what's sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander.

This whole discussion is a storm in a teacup. Anybody who reads the news can spot a mile off that the majority of so-called "reportage" around politics is press-releases, leaks or editorialising.

The problem for our politicians and the reason they dislike the ABC so much (on both sides, let's not forget the fraught relationship of Rudd and Gillard with the national broadcaster) is that it is very difficult to make it cooperate with threats or bribes, unlike our commercial press which depends on the revenue from advertising that political alignment can help to ensure keeps flowing in.

We don't need more polarisation, we need a great deal less. That way, genuine arguments have to be made.
Posted by Craig Minns, Tuesday, 30 June 2015 10:01:12 AM
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Claims of left wing bias by the ABC are made by people with no idea where the left wing is on the political spectrum. Outside of Late Night Live, you do not hear socialist views, nor anarchist views, nor communist views, much at all. There are views that are recognisably centrist--in favour of reducing wealth disparity for example, moderate right wing views such as concerns about civil liberties, equal opportunities and opposing unfair discrimination. There are views about the environment, which don't fit on a left/right spectrum at all. There are pro-government views--mostly quite far to the right, (though by no means all of them) made by government spokesmen. Where are these left-wing views?

An interview where a government spokesperson presents a case and an ABC interviewer raises is difficulties is not biased. Two sides are presented.

If the ABC is to present all reasonable views equally, the heavy majority of its coverage will be antigovernment. There are not just two views on every topic.

Finally, how on earth was the ABC to know about Mallah's tweets?
Posted by ozbib, Tuesday, 30 June 2015 10:41:10 AM
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Those who argue that the ABC demonstrates left wing bias in its current affairs programs only demonstrate how right wing this country is. There is precious little "left wing" analysis or argument in the ABC or anywhere else in the msm.

There is for example, a wafer slice of difference between Labor and the Coalition on almost any area of substance, yet a representative of each is almost invariably on Q & A as if that represented a right v left perspective.

Even when the issues are not ideological but factual, there is precious little in the way of different analysis or substantially different viewpoints. Whole areas of importance are simply ignored; eg. the piracy, yet again, of Israel in stopping, in international waters, a ship attempting to break the illegal Israeli blockade of Gaza. Not mentioned on ABC or SBS yesterday, and missing from ABC on line today.

The coverage of the downing of MH17 is abysmal. Like the author I have made complaints to the ABC and received anodyne responses. There are many other examples.
Posted by James O'Neill, Tuesday, 30 June 2015 10:42:56 AM
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'Those who argue that the ABC demonstrates left wing bias in its current affairs programs only demonstrate how right wing this country is. There is precious little "left wing" analysis or argument in the ABC or anywhere else in the msm. '

Regressives and overpaid staff are the only ones upset about any cuts to the national broadcasters. Says it all. If it was so balanced then the balanced ones would be sad about about cuts.
Posted by runner, Tuesday, 30 June 2015 11:15:32 AM
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I agree with an eminently sensible Craig Minns and given the number of government representatives invited to speak, I just don't see this so called left wing bias.

My problem is with a patently right wing Tony Jones, who seems to lose control and give the government speakers more time to speak (the motor mouth Marabella show) than those who hold a different view, and the way he tends to ask leading questions to elicit certain answers as happened with Mallah.

It's just a pity we didn't have Man Monis on and given his head on Q+A; and thus known just how dangerous he really was?

And instead of some of our citizens murdered,and others traumatized, he deported to where his views are more widely accepted; which would be a good outcome if it could somehow be arranged for an equally dangerous and diabolically despicable (tweet tweet) Mallah!
Rhrosty.
Posted by Rhrosty, Tuesday, 30 June 2015 11:47:19 AM
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I have to agree with an eminently sensible Craig Minns and given the number of government representatives invited to speak, I just can't

My principle problem is with a patently right wing Tony Jones, who seems to lose control and give the government speakers more time to speak (the motor mouth Marabella show) than those who may hold a different view, and the way he seems to ask leading questions to elicit certain answers as happened with Mallah.

What a pity we didn't have Man Monis on and given his head on Q+A; and thus all of us known how dangerous he and his views were?
And instead of some of our citizens murdered,and others traumatized, he deported to where his views are more widely accepted; which would be a good outcome if it could somehow be arranged for an equally dangerous and diabolically despicable (tweet tweet) Mallah!
Rhrosty.
Posted by Rhrosty, Tuesday, 30 June 2015 11:54:21 AM
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Rhostry,

"the patently right wing Tony Jones"! Join the Mad Hatter. That is your craziest statement yet.
Posted by ttbn, Tuesday, 30 June 2015 12:42:33 PM
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Embarrassment seems to follow media and politicians alike. Too many embarrassing stories must seem to some people as planned created stories because embarrassing stories seems like open government transparency. Democracies I believe must look like open to all to see the mistakes governments make. The ABC government financed broadcaster must be seen as independent from politicians. Pretty obvious to me that occasional ABC embarrassments allows democracy governments and broadcasters to look independent from each other. Everyone wins and poor thinking populations are easily fooled and entertained. If there were an argument for why education teachers stupidity, easily believing embarrassing stories to be true is one argument.
Posted by steve101, Tuesday, 30 June 2015 1:23:28 PM
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The sad thing is it's not even about the ABC.

Another masterful distraction by Abbott he has somehow turned this into an issue to stop the talk believing about his new Terror laws.
The fact that the guy in question has made numerous TV appearances some of them live is beside the point.
Abbott has managed to get the sheepish Libertarians to be throwing poop at the ABC inside of him and so our democrazy is weaker.

There is no end to the Abbott fanboys who will fall over themselves to agree's with anything he says, mindless fools like ttbn who ignore the fact the Q& A has a Liberal polly on just about every week. The government of the day needs to govern for All Australia not just their supporters. Howard who always be ready to express his vision and explain himself. Abbott is a second rate man doing a second rate job at PM. He's just lucky we have a second rate opposition.

Power is all Abbott has been after and he will do anything and say anything to keep it.
Posted by Cobber the hound, Tuesday, 30 June 2015 1:24:22 PM
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It seems to me that the defenders of the ABC completely forget (or purposely ignore) that the ABC is publically funded. The ABC is supposed to present a balanced perspective and they don't! Anyone can see the ABC is very anti-government and generally supports every left-wing cause the UN can imagine.

I watch a lot of shows on SBS and sometimes watch The Feed which puts an interesting young perspective on the news. It doesn't bother me that The Feed is left of centre, I expect it to be. But week after week Q & A under the guise of a fair and balanced forum reveals itself to be anything but fair and balanced.

As an aside, I happened to watch The Feed's fourth year anniversary a few weeks ago. The show opened with the regular presenters pretending to be in a meeting to discuss how to celebrate. One of them says "the Government has given us $XX,000 dollars to wank ourselves, so let's have a party." Then the show officially opened with a panel and the main presenter said "welcome to our circle jerk". I'm no prude and I wasn't offended by the comments but it did make me wonder how grateful these people are about having their jobs and how loud they would scream if their funding got pulled.
Posted by ConservativeHippie, Tuesday, 30 June 2015 2:49:07 PM
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Like Monis Mallah deserves eventual special treatments.
Posted by plantagenet, Tuesday, 30 June 2015 4:37:16 PM
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Here we go again, analysing the replies of the ABC apologists.

Ponde claims it is all about free speech. No, the issue here is whether a taxpayer funded media organisation will ever live up to it's founding charter to be fair and impartial.

Craig Minns tries the old premise that the ABC is a counterweight to the commercial press, which he claims is right wing views on commercial media. It may be a counterweight to right wing views, Minns, but that is not it's charter. It's job is to be impartial.

Ozbib, Rhosty and James O'Neill chose to completely destroy their own credibility by claiming that ABC is not left wing. You boys should apply for the job as the new Iraqi Information Minister. Come on, boys. You can do better than that. When you say something that everybody else knows is self evidently wrong, all you do is make people think that you are loonies.

Steve 101 tries the "independent media" ploy. The ABC can be independent, Steve, but they still have to abide by the founding charter, or their reason to exist comes into question. That charter is to be fair and impartial.

Cobber the Hound completely ignored the issue under discussion and just mouthed off at Tony Abbott.

It is really amusing to see our resident finger waggers and moralisers running for cover over an issue in whch they know that they are completely morally wrong. You lot know that the ABC is the propaganda arm of the Labor Party and the Greens. You know that they are ignoring their founding charter to be impartial. But you desperately want to save "your" ABC from doing what it was originally set up to do.

For as long as the ABC remains a hotbed of fringe group opinions, you feel that your perverted and bizarre views have some basis in mainstream reality. The last thing that you want is for the ABC to be impartial and to have your favourite causes held up to the light of intelligent examination
Posted by LEGO, Tuesday, 30 June 2015 4:50:07 PM
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Sadly, it appears that some of the commentators here failed to pay attention in reading class.

"Australian journalism in general is a domain of so-called "progressive" politics by virtue of the self-selection into journalism of young people, mostly women, who want to "change the world" and then rapidly become exposed to the idea that it is possible to "frame debates" to do just that. Then they discover the political parties are now among the largest employers of journalistic talent and they learn that what's sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander.

This whole discussion is a storm in a teacup. Anybody who reads the news can spot a mile off that the majority of so-called "reportage" around politics is press-releases, leaks or editorialising.

The problem for our politicians and the reason they dislike the ABC so much (on both sides, let's not forget the fraught relationship of Rudd and Gillard with the national broadcaster) is that it is very difficult to make it cooperate with threats or bribes, unlike our commercial press which depends on the revenue from advertising that political alignment can help to ensure keeps flowing in."

The bit in quotes is mine, from an earlier post, if that helps the people who can read.
Posted by Craig Minns, Tuesday, 30 June 2015 5:02:31 PM
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Meanwhile you will seldom, if ever, hear anything about the organizations and their work that are listed or featured on these two references on either the ABC. And, even more so, the commercial media, especially that which is aligned to and promotes the Murdoch/IPA/Quadrant nexus
http://www.a-institute.org/resources.htm
http://www.dabase.org/GCF.htm
Or about the active work done by millions of people inspired by the book introduced here:
http://www.blessedunrest.com
Posted by Daffy Duck, Tuesday, 30 June 2015 5:12:11 PM
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Cobber the Hound,

Didn't take you long to bark about Abbott, and call me a 'mindless fool'. Your obsession with Abbott is pathetic; you really let him get to you. You can call me a mindless fool if you wish; at least I have more self-respect than to call myself a dog.

Dumb mutt that you are, you think I don't know that the dumb ABC has a token conservative it stupidily thinks makes it even, Big deal! Lets' s not mention the audience loaded with lefty nutters like you, and Tony (Stalin) Jones who takes every chance he gets to interrupt the lone conservative. It's a long time since I watched the muck, but I can't help but hear, regularly, that nothing has changed, and little puppies like you are still wetting themselves with delight over the embarrassing ignorance displayed.
Posted by ttbn, Tuesday, 30 June 2015 5:21:09 PM
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Trying to think of the last ABC production I watched regularly. Mother And Son? Countdown? Mr Squiggle?
Posted by Jay Of Melbourne, Tuesday, 30 June 2015 6:06:05 PM
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ttbn, you're reflecting your own idea's mate...I work for a mining company and I own a farm guess who I voted for! There are many Libs and Nats that don't like Abbott and have similar views to me, that why there are so many leaks.

Tony plays wedge politics and regularly lays down smoke trails. ie did he kick up a stink the other times this clown appeared on telly?

It would be interesting to understand the level of your thinking can you tell us what a show like Q & A would look like if you where in charge? Something tells me you think Conservepedia is fair and balanced.

Actually it would be an interesting exercise for all posters here to post who you think is the most fair and balance reporter/presenter on TV, ABC or other...
Posted by Cobber the hound, Tuesday, 30 June 2015 6:08:19 PM
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Thanks Cobber

For your offer.

I would choose Janine - pictured here: . http://www.marine.de/portal/a/marine/!ut/p/c4/NYq7CsJAEEX_aGYjEdHOuBDS2mjsxmQIg_sIw0QbP97dwnvgNOfiAwuJ3rKQSU4U8I7jJKfnByIp0Ms2DoHxVn8zw5QTW7VxMilelCwrrFkt1LKplgIy4-ga37mD-6_5Hvv-svPtvvVDd8U1xvMPZa1J_Q!!/

Now, she may be a Submarine Lieutenant in the German Navy, with little English and no media experience, but she has the looks and I have the hots.

see http://gentleseas.blogspot.com.au/2015/06/defence-distances-itself-from-tony.html

Cheers

Pete
Posted by plantagenet, Tuesday, 30 June 2015 6:18:55 PM
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I can tell you Cobber what it should look like, pretty much as is but minus the obnoxious audience, it was really the audience responses to Mallah and Ciobo that let the cat out of the bag, the program might attempt to play fair but the people who watch it are in the main beetle browed, narrow minded "progressives".
Posted by Jay Of Melbourne, Tuesday, 30 June 2015 7:42:47 PM
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Pete,
I'll see that and raise you one Crimean chief prosecutor and a brace of Russian police cadets:
http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/73700000/jpg/_73700152_73696960.jpg
http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2011/05/10/article-1385131-0BF94B7A00000578-556_964x632.jpg
Strong, powerful women.
Posted by Jay Of Melbourne, Tuesday, 30 June 2015 7:47:27 PM
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LEGO, what you think everyone else knows is actually just what people expect. And that's just because the government and the Murdoch Press keep refpeating it so much that people assume it to be true. But Ozbib is right – no objective analysis of ABC programming shows it to be biased, and the ABC does more to avoid bias than any other media content provider.
Posted by Aidan, Tuesday, 30 June 2015 8:59:29 PM
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Where ABC got it wrong was to allow a live question from Zaky Mallah coloured with an attack on the Libs most revered living icon, "As the first man in Australia to be charged with terrorism under the harsh Liberal Howard government in 2003, I was subject to solitary confinement, a 22 hour lockdown, dressed most times in an orange overall and treated like a convicted terrorist while under the presumption of innocence.
I had done and said some stupid things including threatening to kidnap and kill but in 2005 I was acquitted of the terrorism charges.
What would have happened if my case had been decided by the Minister and not the courts?"

Had he asked this question on tape, the ABC would have chopped the colourful bit, and things may not have escalated with Ciobo's ridiculous response in kind. We should expect better of our pollies IMO, rather than intemperate displays like his.

Mallah had every right to question the proposal of ministerial prerogative, given how it might have applied to him.

Whatever, the rest is history. Abbott did the bleeding Abbott-obvious, followed by the backing of his hysterical attack by the Team Australia front-bench, bound to solidarity over his every utterance since the recent bad look of cabinet dissent over the central matter. Then we had Tim Wilson bringing up the rear, getting all hot and bothered over Tony Jones just doing his job.

Kill the ABC. Kill the ABC. Kill the ABC. Kill the ABC. Kill the ABC........
Posted by Luciferase, Tuesday, 30 June 2015 9:37:29 PM
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Oh, and Paul Kelly last night intimating the ABC that it had better roll with the government or expect the unexpected. But then again, I guess, all he was saying was the bleeding obvious, that this government acts with extreme prejudice.
Posted by Luciferase, Tuesday, 30 June 2015 9:48:20 PM
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Aiden, the primary reason why most social regressives like yourself sprout your left wing views is because of a mistaken belief that it makes you look intelligent. It is a peer group thing. You identify with all those well off young university educated professionals living on their inherited wealth and parental trust funds in Balmain and Bondi, and you want to identify with them.

But if you stand up and say something completely stupid, like saying that the ABC is not biased, then most people know straight away that you are either intellectually challenged, or have some neuroses in which your ideology can completely short circuit self evident reality.

Claiming that the ABC is not biased, means that your opponents have won the debate before we even start. Most people will laugh at you. Some will feel sorry for you. Nobody will think you are intelligent. Not even the management of the ABC, who know that "their" ABC is a vehicle for left wing propaganda. They know perfectly well that that they are violating the ABC's founding charter, but they just want to keep their stranglehold on taxpayer funded media forever.

It is obvious that you do not read Murdoch's "The Australian" newspaper, because it is everything that the ABC will never be. It's editorials are usually right wing, although it supports gay "marriage" and Constitutional "recognition" of aborigines. It gives equal coverage to both sides on any contentious issue in it's widely read "opinions" page, and it even has notorious left wing journos like Mark Day, Phillip Adams and Graham Richardson on it's payroll.

One reason why Murdoch got rich was because he realised that all of the news media had become endemically left wing and that it was getting up the noses of the public. He made his media reflect largely the views of the public who were his customers. But he was a lot more concerned with impartiality than our ABC Soviet. That is why his media is successful and have credibility with the public, while the ABC infuriates the public and has the credibility of Pravda.
Posted by LEGO, Wednesday, 1 July 2015 6:11:51 AM
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Is there an unbiased publicly-funded broadcasting agency anywhere in the world? I can't think of one. Unbiased public broadcasting is a lost cause, simply because jobs that are paid from government funding are going to attract people who regard government funding as a good thing; or if they don't, their self-esteem will demand that they soon do. There is tremendous psychological and social pressure on people who get their salaries from taxpayers' funds to maintain that public money should be distributed in this way, and not only to them, but to everyone.

The ABC may have small-scale disputes with this government or that, but -- like the universities and the remainder of the public service -- the way that they are recruited and paid virtually guarantees that their sympathies will be in favour of government interventionism and public welfare. Which in Australia means leaning towards the ALP.
Posted by Jon J, Wednesday, 1 July 2015 7:00:30 AM
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Jon J, a good comment, but I'll make just one quibble.

In Australia the ALP has come to be regarded as a party of Government intervention only relatively recently and the LNP is a party of free-market "economic rationalism" only in concept, the reality is very different.

In other words, it's an artificial ideological dichotomy that has evolved mostly because of the changing industrial conditions that have lead both sides of politics to face a rapidly shifting set of voter demographics and voter concerns that has made more traditional (in the Australian context) political stances very difficult.

The National Party was and to some extent remains wedded to large Government interventions, which is only reasonable given its roots in an agrarian Bush, where seasons are variable, distances large and income very unevenly distributed with profits repatriated to the city.

The ALP was mostly driven by industrial policies that were formulated with an eye on the interests of both employers and workers and for a large part of its history that meant shorter working hours and maintaining employment in response to technological advances. It has had to shift to accommodate a largely Government work force which has made it lose focus on industry policy.

The Liberal Party was founded on the idea of the primacy of the individual over the collective and was always aimed at the prosperous bourgeois middle class, the middle management/foreman and artisanal tradesman who felt themselves deserving of recognition as a separate group from the proletarian worker, having proven themselves capable of making good. It appealled very strongly to women and that was part of the reason for the ALP adopting such a strong stance toward women's issues.

The ABC could span that divide because in reality there wasn't much of a divide at all. The divisions have been deliberately created by professional operatives within each party (including our own GY on this site) as a means of polarising votes.
Posted by Craig Minns, Wednesday, 1 July 2015 7:59:25 AM
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LEGO,

1. Why do you regard me as a social regressive?
2. If my objective were to look intelligent, why would I resort to the tactic of sprouting views that so many here have prejudged to be stupid?
3. Why do you think I identify, and want to identify, with the rich people of eastern Sydney?
4. Why do you again resort to the "it's true because everyone knows it's true" fallacy that I've previously criticised, while still ignoring Ozbib's objective criticism?
5. What opposing views do you think the ABC do not give adequate coverage to?
6. The Australian used to be objective, but it lost its objectivity years ago. Remember this is the newspaper that had a front page report about Victoria's wind turbines having failed to reduce Victoria's CO2 emissions, but failing to mention that the reason for this was that they exported the extra electricity to NSW!
Posted by Aidan, Wednesday, 1 July 2015 11:14:10 AM
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Cobber the Hound,

If you were not so busy blowing your own trumpet you would have noticed that I don't think much of Tony Abbott either. In fact, I have clearly stated that he has lost my vote for the the coalition, which means no vote for me at all at the next election.

You say that you are a miner and a farmer, so who do I think you would vote for. Well, I don't know. I had a father who was a businessman and a Rotarian who was as bigoted a Labor voter and branch member as any of them. He put me right off Labor, and I didn't get over the dictatorial old bugger until I was about 70 years old, and he had been long dead.

As for 'balanced' ABC presenters, I can tolerate Leigh Sales. Not because she is unbiased, but because she can take as good as she gives, to reverse the phrase. I do NOT watch Q&A. Haven't done for a long time. It should be scrapped. I don't hate the ABC. I watch many of its documentaries. It is unsurpassed for local and British drama, and it is ad-free. I am happy to pay my whack towards it for those things. But, the ABC is unashamedly biased politically, and it should be brought to heel for that.
Posted by ttbn, Wednesday, 1 July 2015 12:40:38 PM
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To Aiden.

1. I know that you are a card carrying social regressive because you are still advocating the preposterous idea that the ABC is not biased. Only a True Believer lefty could say that with a straight face and expect that anybody would believe him. Most trendies know that to say such a thing is ridiculous and they have moved on to the only slightly more credible excuse that the left wing ABC balances out the right wing commercial media.

2. Because you have been conditioned to believe that mainstream thinking is always wrong and that elitist thinking is always right. So if the proles think that you are stupid, you don't care.

3. What defines the elites is not monetary wealth, it is attitudes, education, and usually a position in the public service. The primary belief of the socially regressive brahmin caste, is that they are intellectually superior to the proles, and morally superior to the business class. As superior people on a mission to Save The World, they truly believe that they know how to solve all of the world's problems. All they need do, is just oppose everything that the proles and the bourgeoisie support.

4. Because I know the attitudes of my own white proletarian demographic group. Nationalism is still held in esteem in my class. In yours, it is a dirty word.

5. The philosophy of the ABC is white people are always wrong, minorities are always right, any means of making money is evil, the world is coming to an end because of capitalism, poor foreigners have an absolute right to barge into Australia because ordinary Australians are just happy and greedy consumers, Australia's friends, like Israel and the USA are to be despised, while terrorists like David Hicks, Mamdouth Habb, and Zacky Mallah should be portrayed as innocent victims of western injustice.

6. "The Australian" newspaper is right wing. . But unlike the ABC, it is not funded by the taxpayer and it has no obligation to be objective and impartial. But it is creditably objective and impartial on contentious issues
Posted by LEGO, Wednesday, 1 July 2015 5:11:26 PM
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To LEGO,

1. You don't know me at all. It is only your rightwing bias that makes the ABC look biased, not any objective assessment. And even if you think I'm from the Loony Left, what issue do you think that would make me regressive on?

2. I do not think that mainstream thinking is always wrong. My opposition to it, on the issues where I oppose it, is partly due to my Christianity, so I suppose at a stretch it might be reasonable for you to label it "conditioning" even though a more thorough analysis would show you it wasn't. But there's another reason I often oppose mainstream thinking: I am aware of the false assumptions that many mainstream arguments are based on.

I don't know where you got the idea that I consider elitist thinking always right. I don't agree with elites (by your definition) any more than with the general population, and elitists even less.

3. Though I do have a degree, I don't think intellectual superiority is class based, and I'm sure moral superiority isn't. Likewise, I do have the answers to many of Australia's (and the world's) problems, but it's certainly not based on doing the opposite of what any group or groups support. Indeed I'm not aware of any correlation, positive or negative, with what any social class support, though there's frequently a negative correlation with what the political Right support.

4. It's not nationalism I oppose; it's some of the things that people try to use nationalism to justify.

(TBC)
Posted by Aidan, Thursday, 2 July 2015 11:01:12 AM
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5. If that were the philosophy of the ABC, the ABC would indeed be biased. The fact that this does not describe the ABC at all suggests you haven't watched or listened to it much, and have based your impressions of bias on the views of the Liberal Party and the Murdoch Press.

Most of the people on the ABC are white, and they are neither portrayed as nor claim to be always wrong.
Minorities aren't regarded or portrayed as always right. However the ABC does try to ensure that minority opinions are heard. As it should.
I don't recall ever seeing or hearing anyone on the ABC claiming that any means of making money is evil – not even on LNL. It's certainly not the dominant philosophy.
I have occasionally heard people on the ABC espouse the view that "the world is coming to an end because of capitalism", but again, it's a minority viewpoint, very far from the dominant philosophy (which is unsurprisingly pro capitalist).
You're conflating three separate issues when you accuse them of having the philosophy that "poor foreigners have an absolute right to barge into Australia because ordinary Australians are just happy and greedy consumers". Have you any evidence the ABC does likewise?

The ABC recognises Australia's friends, like Israel and the USA should not be above criticism; it's you, not they, who interprets this as meaning they are to be despised!

The ABC should always stand up for the rule of law. You say "while terrorists like David Hicks, Mamdouth Habb, and Zacky Mallah should be portrayed as innocent victims of western injustice". But none of those three actually committed any terrorist act yet two were locked up in a military prison for years, with one having been tortured. The third was not portrayed by the ABC as an innocent victim of western injustice, though one of the panelists seemed to almost want him to become one!

6. The Australian used to be creditably objective and impartial on contentious issues, but it lost that impartiality years ago. Now it just toes the party line.
Posted by Aidan, Thursday, 2 July 2015 11:03:40 AM
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Reply to Aiden.

1. You are still claiming that the ABC is not biased. That equates to saying that the Earth is flat, and then demanding that I prove it is round. Once again, I remind you that most ABC supporters know that pretending that the ABC is not biased is utterly ridiculous. The audience would laugh at them uproariously if they had the audacity to advocate such nonsense in front of a random crowd of people. Your own supporters take the more credible position that the left wing bias on the ABC counters the right wing bias in the commercial media. Your position is so silly, it must be making your own supporters wince with embarrassment.

2. Mainstream thinking is that the ABC is hopelessly biased, and true to farm, as a social regressive, you say it is not because you reflexively oppose self evident mainstream thinking. Your ability to think that black is somehow white, because your peer group told you so, marks you indelibly as a social regressive. Such people have generally uniform opinions on a range of issues, especially on the "three 'R's". (Republic, Reconciliation, Refugees). They reflexively oppose whatever the proles, the bourgeoisie, and the patricians support. Amusingly, they even adopt fashions, music, opinions, and art forms guaranteed to get up the noses of the general public, and which mark them as a class apart from the herd.

3. Thank you for ticking the box and admitting you have degree. London to a brick it is in the Artz or Humanities where your muddled and inbred thinking is inculcated into you within the cloistered walls of academia. When was the last time you ever supported a cause that would be supported by the white Bogans who live in the west of Sydney? And thank you for ticking the box that you are of the opinion that you know how to solve all the world's problems.

Continued
Posted by LEGO, Thursday, 2 July 2015 5:28:57 PM
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Continued

4. It is permissible for a social regressive to say, cheer on an Australian sporting team. But anything that puts the interests of foreigners above Australians is automatically seized upon by your peer group as a cause worthy of embracing. This is so people like yourself can strut and preen yourselves as being morally superior to your own people, and an identifiably different class.

5. I don't watch TV, but I read the ABC news every morning, and I watch the trailers to Q&A and Four Corners on Youtube. They absolutely infuriate me with their constant and childish niggling at everything that Tony Abbot does. Please name one instance where the ABC has ever congratulated Tony Abbot on anything? Most Australians want boat people stopped. The ABC supports boat people because they are non white, it dilutes the white race which the ABC despises, and they know most white Australians hate multiculturalism. The ABC also loves boat people because they make great ALP voters. They go straight on the dole and most of them stay there forever, while they create an abundance of jobs for social workers, social security personnel, police, prison warders, and lawyers.

Once again, I reiterate that "The Australian" newspaper is infinitely more impartial than the ABC. If the ABC ever presented a discussion about the environment with a panel composed of a sporting shooter, a mining executive, a forest worker, a commercial fisherman, and the Australian head of Greenpeace, I might give your position that the ABC is unbiased some credibility. But you and I both know that that will never happen.
Posted by LEGO, Thursday, 2 July 2015 5:29:27 PM
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London to a brick, huh Lego? You've badly miscalculated there, for my degree is in civil engineering. The reason I know how to solve many (though not all) of the world's problems is because I can see many options that those in power fail even to consider. I'm not a republican (nor an ardent monarchist, but I did vote NO in the referendum). I don't put the interests of foreigners above those of Australians, but rather than advocating persecuting and ripping off foreigners, I look for solutions where Australians and foreigners can all benefit.

Thanks for finally admitting you don't even watch ABC programs so are relying on second hand information to support your claim that the ABC is biased. Now those reading this have absolute proof that it's you whose opinion is down to groupthink. You try to belittle my opinion, as if it was like saying the Earth is flat. But guess what? There's EVIDENCE the Earth is round, whereas the very widespread perception of ABC bias is one of the Howard government's most enduring myths. It was arguably true when they started it, but certainly false when they propagated it and it's been false ever since.

In real life there are many things thought to be true that later turn out to be false. For example, twenty years ago everyone thought too much aluminium caused Alzheimer's disease. We now know for sure that it doesn't.

Drop your groupthink and forget your silly stereotypes! Start looking at the evidence and thinking!

Most Australians are post racial and pro multiculturalism. But it has had a few failures, mostly in western Sydney. So I expect I'd disagree with the majority of bogans there on that issue, but I'm not going to try to second guess their opinions on other issues.
Posted by Aidan, Friday, 3 July 2015 1:05:26 AM
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BTW Shaun Micallef congratulated the PM earlier this year, but I don't remember whether he's been congratulated since then. I'm sure the ABC would congratulate him more if he let them interview him more and if he achieved more.
Posted by Aidan, Friday, 3 July 2015 1:17:56 AM
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ozbibb’s fatuous question“ how on earth was the ABC to know about Mallah's tweets “
During the research they did to ascertain that he was the insolent, arrogant, intellectually challenged terrorist supporter suitable to their purpose, it would have been obvious.
James O”Neill mimics the ABC nonsense that it doesn’t know what “left” means, and that its output is “centre” and not “left”. The ABC is lying.
It pretends that it is unaware that it supports homosexual marriage, climate fraud, despite almost 19 year of no global warming, opening of our borders to illegal immigrants, and any other anti-Australian left wing cause on offer, by refusing to give the conservatives any opportunity to present balanced, sensible commentary on the topic.
Mark Scott refuses to comply with the requirements of his employment and should be immediately terminated as the first step in reforming this mess.

Aiden, there is evidence that the earth is spherical.There is no evidence that it is flat, since the old fellow who used to sit up in Macquarie Street,with the easel and sketches on butchers paper illustrating why the earth is flat, is no longer around.

You saw no evidence, Aiden, that muslims treat reasonableness as a weakness. Have you managed to remain unaware that Sharouf lived on a disability pension in Sydney, which continued to be paid when he went to Syria on his brother’s passport, to join ISIS. You may also be unaware that there were organised groups who staged car accidents, upon which muslim “passengers” would pile into the vehicle not at fault, so that the could pursue a claim for compensation, for their “injuries”, on which they had to fool the doctor who supplied the report, if a middle eastern doctor was not available to give a false report. This just scratches the surface. There is plenty more, if you are willing to relinquish your ignorance.
Posted by Leo Lane, Friday, 3 July 2015 8:13:00 PM
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What a clown you are, Aiden. Micaileff congratulated Abbott for winning out over Turnbull, on the basis that his show was better with Abbott as winner, as Turnbull was too reasonable to make a good basis for the show.
The addled left wing thinking of the ABC gaggle would prevent any perception that Abbott should be congratulated. He would only earn their congratulations if he did something despicable and left wing. Turnbull’s initial despicable and disloyal support of the carbon tax earned the approval of the ABC, for which Turnbull should be thoroughly ashamed. Any decent person would hope that he never did anything to warrant the approval of the ABC
Posted by Leo Lane, Friday, 3 July 2015 10:42:29 PM
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To Aiden.

I know that you have never thought about it, but if you ever got yourself in a dark corner with no distractions, you would pretty soon figure out that human beings think using stereotypes. Human beings link stereotypes to create concepts. If I was to say to you that there is a "bird" sitting on a "car", you would link your personnel stereotypical image of a "bird" sitting on your stereotype of a "car" to paint a picture in your mind.

Your stereotype need not be completely accurate, only accurate enough to form a concept. But I understand how trendy lefties think. Somebody in your peer group told you that it is wrong to stereotype, and you unthinkingly accepted it. Because the person who said it sounded like they were intelligent, and you identify with people like that.

Saying that people should not stereotype because their stereotype might be wrong, is exactly like saying that people should not think because their thinking might be wrong.

You ticked two boxes for a stereotypical trendy lefty. If you are not an Artz grad then that hardly makes you less a trendy lefty than an flightless emu is no less a "bird." And if you don't believe in a republic, then with most groups, a certain amount of deviance is permitted while still maintaining identity. But trendy lefties as a group tend to be unforgiving of candidates who reject any doctrines of the Holy Orthodoxy. So I would not spread it around among your peer group that you are a republican heretic. You might be shunned for conduct unbecoming a trendy lefty.

I have probably watched three times as much ABC in my life as you have. But several years ago I just gave up. I got sick and tired of the ABC going on and on about "refugees", and David Hicks, and "refugees" and Mamdouth Habib, and "refugees" and Cornelia Rau, and "refugees" and Mark Latham is the new Messiah, and refugees and the monstrous, so called "stolen generations" lie.
Posted by LEGO, Saturday, 4 July 2015 9:36:08 AM
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Leo Lane, Micaileff congratulated Abbott several times since then.

Regarding Mallah's tweets, why should it be obvious? It was two tweets among thousands.

Unfortunately the consensus for gay marriage is across all media, not just the ABC.

The ABC does not support climate fraud. But your claim that there's been "almost 19 year of no global warming" makes it clear that you do. We know from satellite measurements that our planet is absorbing electromagnetic radiation faster than it emitting it.

I've yet to see any evidence the ABC wants open borders, but there's rightly a lot of criticism of the savage way we're currently treating asylum seekers.

And when has the ABC ever refused to give the conservatives any opportunity to present balanced, sensible commentary on any topic?

BTW I'm well aware there's evidence that the earth is spherical - in fact in the comment you were replying to, I informed LEGO of that fact.
Posted by Aidan, Sunday, 5 July 2015 7:11:22 PM
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LEGO, you may (though I doubt it) know what trendy lefties think, but certainly don't know what I think. I've never been trendy! I don't have a trendy lefty peer group, and nor have I ever sought one.

Humans do make assumptions when thinking, but for an assumption to count as a stereotype it has to be widely held, fixed and oversimplified. It's usually also negative, but that's not a defining feature.

Reliance on stereotypes is wrong not because of anything I unthinkingly accepted, but because it prevents you from giving people a fair go.

And your reliance on stereotypes is literally preventing you from thinking! You use stereotypes as a substitute for evidence even when the evidence is available. Hence you firstly assumed I was lying when I revealed some of the ways I did not fit the stereotype. When I explained some of the similarities and differences between myself and your stereotype, you took the view that the similarities proved your point and the differences didn't matter – even when you'd previously deduced from your stereotype that the chance of those differences were one in several billion.

So again I say to you: drop your groupthink (regarding ABC bias) and forget your silly stereotypes (which have blinded you to what should be obvious). Start looking at the evidence and thinking!
Posted by Aidan, Monday, 6 July 2015 12:44:31 AM
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To Aiden.

If you have the capacity to ignore self evident reality and claim that the ABC is not biased, then that in itself is a defining characteristic of a trendy lefty. The most laughable trendy lefty at the moment is the Greek Prime Minister, who unsurprisingly has been described as a "40 year old student activist", who just can't get it through his head that nobody is going to lend his country billions of euros anymore, just so that his socialist party can buy the votes of the Greek electorate and stay in power forever.

It just goes to show that a university education can not teach people common sense.

Human beings stereotype to think. The stereotype can be accurate, near accurate, or inaccurate. You can criticise the accuracy or inaccuracy of a stereotype, but you can not criticise stereotyping itself. And yes, you can positively stereotype. Nobody is going to whine if you say that the Italians have a flair for design, the Africans make exceptional athletes, or the Chinese work hard. But say that the Italians have a strong commitment to family, religion and graft, or that the Africans are not real bright and appear to be genetically prone to violent behaviour, or that the Chinese are greedy, and every trendy lefty for miles around will come out from under their rocks and scream "racism" at you.

You see trendies think it is alright to make positive stereotypes, but not negative ones. The reason why, is that their humanitarian worldview forbids them from ever criticising anybody who is not a white, western Caucasian. As an educated person, the idea that anyone or anything should be above criticism should be anathema to you.

So I say again, drop your groupthink, switch on your critical analysis circuit, and look at the ABC objectively. What is on the ABC this morning? Aboriginal "recognition" for a start. Every quoted person on that topic saying only good things about the idea of fighting racism by making aborigines a special race. Transgender people in Malaysia. "Traumatised" Gaza children. Oh gawd.
Posted by LEGO, Monday, 6 July 2015 4:59:19 AM
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To LEGO,

Calling something "self evident" tends to coincide with a lack of actual evidence. It seems to be a favourite tactic of racists – Robert Mugabe famously claimed it to be a self evident evil to deny a child a pure racial ancestry!

Greece is in trouble whatever it does, but continuing to implement austerity policies is the dumbest option of all, as it shrinks the Greek economy so they'd just end up in the same situation a few months later. An exit from the Euro is the least bad option left.

I can criticise stereotyping itself, as it is quite an ineffective way of thinking. Especially when you cling on to the stereotype in the face of the evidence!

Negative stereotypes are worse than positive ones because the latter don't prevent you from giving people a fair go.

"The reason why, is that their humanitarian worldview forbids them from ever criticising anybody who is not a white, western Caucasian"
I understand that view was still quite common thirty years ago, but I doubt any of the trendy lefties would still hold it now.

So I say again, drop your groupthink, switch on your critical analysis circuit, and look at the ABC objectively. Aboriginal recognition is certainly an issue worth discussing, as there's likely to be a referendum on it in the near future, and it's something Tony Abbott's spoken about today. But did anyone on the ABC claim that recognition alone would solve the problems? I don't recall hearing anyone expressing that view, though plenty on the ABC have expressed the opposite view.

Do you think support for Israel justifies ignoring the issue of traumatised Gaza children? I don't.

I haven't heard anything about transgender Malaysians for years. What's more newsworthy now is Abbott's ordering Barnaby Joyce not to appear on Q&A today.
Posted by Aidan, Monday, 6 July 2015 3:07:56 PM
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To Aiden.

Please read your first sentence again.. You just stereotyped "racists" by claiming that racists use the term "self evident" as a favourite tactic. Hahaha. Well, you just learned something Aiden, everybody stereotypes, because it is the way that all human beings think. Even you.

I doubt if you are going to invite the Hell's Angels over to your next party, because you have a negative stereotype about outlaw bikers. Aiden, human beings judge other groups of human beings every day as a survival imperative. And they classify them as a group, as good or bad, violent or non violent, trustworthy or non trustworthy, threateneing or non threatening, productive or lazy, smart or dumb. I am sure you have a negative stereotype of Nazis, ISIS, Bogans, and Ku Klux Klansmen, but according to your own reasoning, it is wrong to think negative thoughts about these groups of people, because you are not giving them a "fair go."

The reason why you think that stereotyping is wrong, is because it is a value that has been inculcated into your consciousness by the peer group that you admired. It was never something that you ever tested in your own mind because you did not think you needed to examine the premise objectively.

Back to the ABC. Regardles of whether you think that aboriginal recognition in the Australian constitution is a worthy cause or not, it is the ABC's duty to report both sides of the question, instead of putting one side only.

And if you want to know the real reason for "recognition", it is because government money for aborigines was being channelled by self appointed aboriginal leaders with very sticky fingers. That was why ATSIC was disbanded. it was unreformably corrupt. The Howard government, with the backing of the Labor opposition bypassed the corrupt aboriginal leaders and took over the responsibility of handing out benefits to dysfunctional aboriginal communities themselves.

The self appointed aboriginal leaders want a veto over any government actions directed at aborigines to make certain that they never have the money taken from their sticky fingers again.
Posted by LEGO, Monday, 6 July 2015 7:58:21 PM
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Aiden, I am not a researcher, but even I, amongst other questions, would have asked the little creep, knowing his background, as a criminal, if and where he posted tweets.
He requested to be included in the audience, so the onus was on the ABC to exercise care, even with someone who was not a convicted criminal. If the ABC staff were too incompetent to question him, they should have someone, with a bit of sense, prepare a pro forma questionnaire for use with applicants in the future. Knowing that he was a gaol bird, convicted of threats to government employees, does not seem to have alerted the ABC to the need for extreme caution.

Aiden, you are trying to shift the goal posts. The climate fraud is the assertion that humans are causing global warming. Are you able to refer us to science which shows that human emissions have any measurable effect on climate? If not, you are a fraud-backer. We only have to establish whether the basis is ignorance or dishonesty.
Posted by Leo Lane, Tuesday, 7 July 2015 1:43:12 PM
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To LEGO,
"You just stereotyped 'racists' by claiming that racists use the term 'self evident' as a favourite tactic. Hahaha. Well, you just learned something Aiden, everybody stereotypes, because it is the way that all human beings think. Even you."

Nice try, but it's merely an observation, and I specified that it SEEMS TO be a favourite tactic of racists – I never claimed it was a characteristic of all racists. And more importantly, it was a RESULT of thinking. I'm not resorting to the second rate thinking process of using stereotypes as a substitute for the information I don't have. And I would certainly never resort to the third rate thinking process of using stereotypes as a substitute for the information I do have, yet that is exactly what you've done.

My negative view of the Hell's Angels isn't a stereotype, but rather a conclusion based on their involvement in serious crime. Similarly with ISIS,; not a stereotype but a conclusion based on their attempt to literally wage war on those who don't share their evil ideology. Similarly with nazis; they systematically murdered millions of innocent people for something as trivial and uncontrollable as ethnicity. Similarly with Klansmen – members of a terrorist organization. I'd add the mafia to the list too – my animosity to all those organizations is based on their actions, not stereotypes.

But I'm surprised to see bogans on your list, as they're not an organization but rather a group of people loosely defined as being white, Australian born and culturally unsophisticated. The stereotype is that they like cars (particularly big V8s) and don't have much money (unless they work in mining). Is that really negative? I've got nothing against bogans, and I certainly don't think they should be denied a fair go.

Why, when you have the correct information, do you keep rejecting it in favour of a stereotype that time and time again has been proven wrong?

As for the ABC, they have reported both sides, but not the particular view you've put. But is your opinion based on fact? Or just stereotypes?
Posted by Aidan, Sunday, 12 July 2015 4:13:47 PM
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