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The Forum > Article Comments > Muslims immigrants and being Australian > Comments

Muslims immigrants and being Australian : Comments

By Abe Ata, published 15/4/2015

It is my hope and indeed my belief that the new Australian identity will come to see Muslim-Australians as Catholic-Australians, Italian-Australians, Irish-Australians, etc.… that is, both Muslim and Australian.

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The "Australian identity", presumably by 98% of the Australian population, scares me more than the "Muslim identity" by presumably only 2%.
Posted by Yuyutsu, Wednesday, 15 April 2015 9:55:50 AM
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“The second posits that if Australians were more knowledgeable about Muslims they would express more favorable opinions of Muslims and Islam.”

This is not necessarily the case. It is not relevant to know the details about a particular religion if you have already concluded that it is not relevant to know about religion. We do not need to know or understand the religious behaviour of Muslims as distinct from Christians of Jews – we just need to know that all religious behaviour is ultimately damaging society.

Australians are indulging in less religious behaviour as each generation passes. They are less inclined than ever before to deal with reality by resorting to religious practices. Religious behaviour does not permeate our society in the way it once did. When new arrivals come from predominately Muslim countries where most people respond to reality with religious practices they are challenged. They are forced to face the reality that religious behaviour is not the best way to deal with the things that life throws up. This is very unsettling for them but it is a truth that they have to face for their own good. The frustration and fear they have to deal with as a result of coming to Australia poses two options for them. They can try and hang on to religious behaviour and mould the rest of the country to their ways or they can face their own ways of doing things and change.

This is not a challenge to their culture or to their religion – it is a challenge to their humanity. It is an invitation to be more human and thus to be of more benefit to establishing a harmonious society. In this way coming to Australia may be the best thing that ever happened to them.

It is also very manipulative to play the ‘culture card’. Claiming that Islam is a fundamental part of their culture is very misleading. There are great things about their culture which we should embrace but Islam is not one of them.
Posted by phanto, Wednesday, 15 April 2015 10:05:32 AM
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The word Muslim in this country has become a euphemism for Arab and it's now used in a dishonest and counterproductive way by self styled "Anti Racists".
For one thing there's never been any such thing as an "Irish Australian", "Italian Australian", nobody spoke in those terms when I was growing up, Irish were Irish, Poms were Poms, Greeks were Greeks and the migrants and their kids certainly didn't think in those terms.
This "I am, you are, we are" nonsense is a relic of late 1980's-early 1990's Anti Racism, back when they still had some clout.
What's obvious is that Islam isn't the problem and the more "integrated" Arabs become the worse they are, the Lebanese in particular have been consciously de-assimilating as time has passed and the second and third generations have matured.
The pre 1945 Australian culture is gone, it's been purposely destroyed and denigrated, the succeeding Civic Nationalism and Multiculturalism of the 1970's and '80's is also defunct, what we have now is a cultural vacumm.
I don't know how a melting pot can operate in a vacuum, logic dictates that the fire would go out.
Posted by Jay Of Melbourne, Wednesday, 15 April 2015 10:28:42 AM
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I grew up with children of post war migrants. Whilst the parents may have still considered themselves Greek, Italian, Polish etc. Australians, the children certainly didn't. They considered themselves as just Australians.They did their best to integrate into the local culture and considered themselves Australian. They certainly didn't ask for separate services like access to swimming pools without having to share with the general public. Nor did they express offence at the sight of our symbols of celebration, like xmas or Easter.
But watching interviews with second generation Muslims,these people seem to still identify more strongly with their parent's birth place. " I am Lebanese" " I am Iranian".
There is no attempt to support the cultural values of the majority of the population, rather a distain for them, an attempt to distract away from them and towards the muslim's feeling of discomfort at having to see them.
We never hear complaints from Budhists, or Hindus , only Muslims. Which doesn't bode well for future relations between the groups.
Posted by Big Nana, Wednesday, 15 April 2015 10:49:46 AM
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Dear Nana,

<<We never hear complaints from Budhists, or Hindus , only Muslims.>>

That's because you never bother to listen unless complaints are accompanied with violence and threats of Jihad.

Non-Violence is the primary religious practice of Buddhism and Hinduism, which is why you will never be threatened by us in the way you are threatened by Muslims. This however doesn't imply the lack of complaints or that your culture is superior and worth assimilating into.
Posted by Yuyutsu, Wednesday, 15 April 2015 12:06:26 PM
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What brought them here?

An opportunity to recreate all that they rejected to come here!? We need to tear down that wall and those ghettos!

And leave these (angry) people with no other choice than to mingle, send their kids to our schools, muck in and take a turn or two manning the tuck shops; exposing us to their customs/attitudes and them to ours!

And when they've done that; if where and what they came from was better (b er)? Hike on back!

Sorry, but I'm offended by the sight of a dutiful wife trotting several paces to the rear, and red faced with exertion, carrying everything, including bubs and the shopping; (well there won't be too much of that now, will there!?) While his Majesty, sets up a cracking pace up front, all while he alone fills his face with a sweet treat or icy pole; and entirely on the public purse!

Our town occupies a natural amphitheater, and the sounds of women and kids being brutalized into submission almost daily, echoes throughout the place/robs me of my sleep/serenity!

And no you don't have to be a permanently angry Muslim to brutalize those you're charged with protecting, but I guess it has to help!?

And there they are the very next day, down at the local Mosque, telling Allah the merciful, what wonderful husbands and fathers they are!

That's not how it's done here, R sol!
Rhrosty.
Posted by Rhrosty, Wednesday, 15 April 2015 12:48:31 PM
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The author states early in his piece: "Clearly the cultural and historical differences between Christian and Muslim communities worldwide are too wide to make a complete reconciliation, but, given the alternatives, a creative dialogue must continue." WHY?

The reason why is because Muslims cannot get over the crusades; Muslims cannot accept other religions have as valid access to 'god' as they do; and Muslims cannot separate themselves from the negative tribal Arabic traditions such as Sharia Law and a male dominated morality system.

I'm happy to live and let live as long as the others can extend me the same courtesy. I have no problem with multiculturalism as long as everyone respects the others.

I am happy to accept the 2.2% Muslim population in Australia however I do not want that percentage to increase as it has in England and throughout Europe. Where the Muslim population has reached 4.5 - 5%, that's where the issues of Sharia Law, separate suburbs/boroughs, and increases in extremism have caused serious problems that start to rock the foundations of the host society.

Call me Islamophobic, I don't care, I want the borders closed to further Muslim immigrants and protection from the problems we will receive if we turn a blind eye to the reality like the politically correct are doing.
Posted by ConservativeHippie, Wednesday, 15 April 2015 12:51:25 PM
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Muslims can't get over their hatred of all other religions, the crusades were purely defensive, it amounted to what? Maybe 20 major battles in 200 years, Islam has been battering Europe constantly for 1400 years. The main front has shifted to Russia in recent times but once North Africa falls to ISIS and they take up piracy and slave raiding across the Mediterranean it'll be on again.
Posted by Jay Of Melbourne, Wednesday, 15 April 2015 7:36:31 PM
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Muslims live by the Koran; is there need to say more?
Posted by Is Mise, Wednesday, 15 April 2015 8:35:39 PM
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<<Muslims live by the Koran; is there need to say more?>>

Yes, Muhammad, peace be upon him, did not live by the Koran.

He didn't write it either - the Koran is a much later invention, edited since the 690's and into the 8th century - watch http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f3CfQlvivt4

Just show the Muslims that they were betrayed and diverted from following the true teachings of their beloved prophet - and all will be well.
Posted by Yuyutsu, Wednesday, 15 April 2015 10:37:07 PM
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"Just show the Muslims that they were betrayed and diverted from following the true teachings of their beloved prophet - and all will be well."

and how does one do that, whilst keeping one's head on one's shoulders?
Posted by Is Mise, Thursday, 16 April 2015 7:23:05 AM
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"... if Australians were more knowledgeable about Muslims they would express more favorable opinions of Muslims and Islam."

Probably just the opposite, the more knowledgeable Kuffars are about Islam, the more likely that they will acquire strongly negative attitudes towards Islam, that's certainly been my experience.
Islam is a totalitarian ideology that's inimical to Western liberal democratic traditions, the evidence is in the nature of modern Muslim-majority societies. No amount of multi-culti pixie dust will obscure the violent and chaotic reality of Islamic culture.

We're running an uncontrolled social experiment in the expectation that, in the long term, Islamic culture will be compatible with liberal democracy, let's hope.
Posted by mac, Thursday, 16 April 2015 8:48:14 AM
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"Many Muslims in Australia find themselves caught in the middle of two cultural traditions and wonder if their growing community is being accepted by mainstream society."

Virtually all cultural traditions are accepted by the so-called mainstream thought this pssage and the whole article somewhat raises the issue of what "the mainstream" is).
.

"It is my hope and indeed my belief that the new Australian identity will come to see Muslim-Australians as Catholic-Australians, Italian-Australians, Irish-Australians, etc.… that is, both Muslim and Australian."

The difference is the Catholicism v Protestant thing, that the author seems to be alluding to, was still not as much a difference as a Christian v Muslim thing (the then northern Ireland inspire Anglo-Saxon angst notwithstanding).

"People who advocate and promote a mono-religious and mono-cultural Australia may be motivated by a kind of loyalty, but they are hindering the development of a newly emerging Australian identity."

That is true, particularly as the newly emerging Australian identity is one without a religious overlay; at arms length from a religious umbrella.

The real issues in real life are away from people proposing nebulous rewards in an equally nebulous afterlife.
Posted by McReal, Thursday, 16 April 2015 9:15:23 AM
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'ere we go again...

Big Nana and Jay of Fantasyland, if you don't think that earlier immigrant waves identified primarily with their roots, I suggest you go and check out the various Greek Clubs that have formed the centre of a vibrant cultural identity for that community.

You might like to look up the enormously discriminatory treatment of Catholics (yes, Jay, many of them were Irish and you wouldn't have wanted your daughter to marry one) and the segregation that occurred within the Catholic community when the waves of Italian migration happened. There were Irish churches and there were Catholic churches and there wasn't much mixing. In some places there still isn't.

If you can stop the vapours caused by the thought of someone wearing a long dress and a veil long enough, you might be able to recall the sight of Greek and Eastern European Orthodox widows dressed in similar garb to commemorate their men lost to war or hard and dangerous work - not to mention the occasional Jewish Orthodox woman.

The article makes a powerful point and no amount of calamatising from the usual antisocial ratbags here will change it.

Wake up to yourselves.
Posted by Craig Minns, Thursday, 16 April 2015 9:50:10 AM
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Sorry, of course that should have been "There were Irish churches and there were Italian" churches
Posted by Craig Minns, Thursday, 16 April 2015 9:56:51 AM
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I reject the idea of Muslim Australians, Catholic Australians, Italian Australians, Irish Australians etc.
And I'm not being racist or intolerant of religions.
For my way of thinking - You're either Australian or a foreigner.
You can't be loyal to our country and call yourself a Australian citizen if your heart belongs in another land.
What if a war breaks out in your old nation?
Do you suddenly become a dissident and a problem in our country now?

Do I refer to myself as a Scottish Australian because my forefather came from Scotland on a British convict ship?
No, Im just an Australian.

The whole vibe I get from this practice is that were focussing on what makes us different instead of focussing on what we have in common.
And that line of thinking only ends up dividing people against each other.

So for me, I don't reject Australia's multicultural diversity, but home is where the heart is.
If you want to refer to yourself as an Italian Australian, you're not Australian, you're Italian.
If you want to refer to yourself as an Irish Australian, you're not Australian, you're Irish.
And if you wish to identify yourself by your religious denomination, say Muslim Australian, then you are openly trying to take advantage of and highjack our culture.
Maybe a true Australian should be someone who was born here.

If you wish to identify yourself as anything other than Australian, or hold dual citizenship you should not be able to hold office or public service positions.

You talk about the 'Newly Emerging Australian Identity'
What exactly was wrong with our existing identity?
Why do we have to morph into something new to appease those new gatecrashers to the country who may or may not be even Australians yet?
If they don't like it here they should go somewhere else.
Posted by Armchair Critic, Thursday, 16 April 2015 10:17:43 AM
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Pure religion as describes by Bible
'(Jas 1:27) Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, to visit orphans and widows in their afflictions, and to keep oneself unspotted from the world.'

Pure religion as described by Koran

kill the infidel.

Pure religion as modelled by secularist

its all about me

the last 2 have far more in common.
Posted by runner, Thursday, 16 April 2015 11:08:03 AM
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Runner, what about Matthew 10 ?

21 Brother will deliver brother over to death, and the father his child, and children will rise against parents and have them put to death, 22 and you will be hated by all for my name's sake. ... 23 When they persecute you in one town, flee to the next, for truly, I say to you, you will not have gone through all the towns of Israel before the Son of Man comes.

27 What I tell you in the dark, say in the light, and what you hear whispered, proclaim on the housetops. 28 And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul.

34 “Do not think that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I have not come to bring peace, but a sword.

35 For I have come to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law. 36 And a person's enemies will be those of his own household. 37 Whoever loves father or mother more than me is not worthy of me, and whoever loves son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. 38 And whoever does not take his cross and follow me is not worthy of me. 39 Whoever finds his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life *for my sake* will find it.
Posted by McReal, Thursday, 16 April 2015 2:02:34 PM
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What would happen, Critic, should a war breaks between Australia and the Kingdom of Heaven?

I for sure will side with the Kingdom of Heaven, while you can stay with your mythic "Australia", a bully British sub-culture which falsely believes it has exclusive rights over this whole continent.
Posted by Yuyutsu, Thursday, 16 April 2015 2:16:24 PM
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Armchair Critic, "The whole vibe I get from this practice is that were focussing on what makes us different instead of focussing on what we have in common.
And that line of thinking only ends up dividing people against each other."

There is power in it (and $$). A simple formula,
Difference -> claimed victimhood -> gravy train and a lifetime swinging from the taxpayer's teat.

Include the hordes of bureaucrats, advocates, journalists, lawyers and other professionals and it is a very big (victim) industry indeed.
Posted by onthebeach, Thursday, 16 April 2015 2:42:55 PM
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21 Brother will deliver brother over to death, and the father his child, and children will rise against parents and have them put to death, 22 and you will be hated by all for my name's sake. '

already happening Mc Real and mainly when Muslims convert to Christianity. also with the intolerance of secularism we see

'35 For I have come to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law. 36 And a person's enemies will be those of his own household.'
Posted by runner, Thursday, 16 April 2015 4:13:39 PM
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.
"the intolerance of secularism"
Posted by runner, Thurs, 16 April; 4:13:39pm

runner, secularism ism't quite the negative some believe or portray it to be, pejoratively.

eg. ""Secularism has been variously defined as 'promoting neutrality/fairness in the public square', 'separating governance from religion', 'managing a society of diverse beliefs', 'a regime of religious regulation', 'opposition to religious or spiritual influences' and 'eliminating religion from politics and society'. The first three are what could be described as 'pluralist' conceptions, the latter three 'eliminative'.

"Yet self-proclaimed proponents and opponents of secularity are often unclear about the distinction between these competing meanings, their relation to different claims about post/secularization (the shift from primarily associational faith-based societies to technical post- or a-religious ones), and the possibility of new horizons and approaches.

"It is our conviction that conscious attempts are needed to engage thinking people of both non-religious and varying religious persuasions in considering models of secular/religious life which may be received as an invitation rather than a threat, as plural rather than monolithic, as inclusive rather than exclusive, and which move from 'thin' to 'thick' descriptions of "the good" as part of a rigorous but respectful conversation between different traditions of reasoning.

"At present there is a grave danger that these issues are being mired in simplistic media arguments and "the politics of competitive grievance" on all sides.""

http://www.ekklesia.co.uk/SecularismReligion

.
Posted by McReal, Thursday, 16 April 2015 7:38:48 PM
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You have to hand it to Abe Ata. While educated western people think that always opposing the interests of their own people makes them into intellectual and moral giants, educated Muslims like Abe are still loyal to their own people.

Abe's people are Muslims. Thank you Abe, for confirming what most Australians already appreciated, that "Muslim/Australians" consider themselves more "Muslim" than "Australian."

Now Abe and his people have a problem. Australians are waking up to just how dangerous Muslims are, and how our stupid politicians have introduced a cancer into our body politic. So Abe goes the reassurance path, even though he does a bad job of it. He waffles on about multiculturalism, because he knows that this will strike a chord with the stupid Australians who think that they can end all human conflict if everybody on planet Earth just joined hands and just sat around the campfire singing "Kumbaya."

Abe's contention that "there will always be differences" sounds reasonable, until you realise what those little "differences" are. They include restrictions on free speech, the murder of authors, journalists, or cartoonists who criticise Islam, honour killings, female circumcisions, 11 year old brides, , "no go " zones for non Muslims, Muslim "decency patrols" in "Muslim" areas, terrorism, female teachers refusing to work in schools with high infestations of Muslim boys, the concept that secular law must be secondary to Muslim religious law, the Muslim tradition of wife beating, and a few other minor 'differences" like how "cat meat" Australian women deserve to be raped by Believers. Yep, they are "differences" all right, Abe. So too is the fact that the Australian Armed Forces are now in Iraq fighting against 70 "Muslim/Australians." Thankfully, 20 of the sods have already been killed.

What holds every society together is the general acceptance of what constitutes correct behaviour, and the belief that we are united as a community. Unless Abe can explain how diversity causes unity, and how diametrically opposed cultural values can bring us together, than this is just another puff piece meant to lull the infidels into accepting more Muslim immigrants
Posted by LEGO, Friday, 17 April 2015 7:57:41 AM
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Quote: “if Australians were more knowledgeable about Muslims they would express more favorable opinions of Muslims and Islam”

Fact: Anybody knowledgeable about Islam knows that it teaches hate and violence, so ‘favorable’ opinions depend only on ignorance or fear.

Quote: “Moderate Muslims who keep their faith on a personal level avoid bringing religion into politics …who feel embarrassed at violent actions taken under the banner of their religion”.

Riposte: Too bad “moderate” Muslims don’t feel embarrassed about the hate and violence toward nonMuslims in the Quran (those “lower than animal” infidels), or the evil deeds of their prophet (who attacked his neighbors for 10years, committing all manner of atrocities).

Quote: (Muslim essays) cover a range of themes including cultural pluralism, …interfaith dialogue, …tolerance

Response: Oh yes, nothing like Muslims to teach infidels such virtues as tolerance and coexistence – just like everywhere in the Muslim world! Just like the Muslim immigrants that threw nonMUslims into the sea this week.

Do Muslims ever read a paper? Do they watch TV? Do they have a clue about the evil they do based upon the teachings in the Quran and the vile example of their prophet?

How can anybody write such utter garbage? Anybody who says that an Islamic identity is “soul searching, self-critical, reflective” is ignorant of the basics of Mohammad’s religion. I sure would like to find a Muslim website that discusses the vile portrayal of non-Muslims in the Quran or the evil deeds of their prophet. Show me a Muslim site that questions Mohammad’s rape of captives or the morality of attacking villages by night.

As I have been saying here for 12+ years, Muslims cannot live in peace, in numbers, with nonMuslims. They will try to impose their evil values on us and/or attack and kill us. Yet even I had no idea of the brutal barbarism of modern Muslims as we have seen in the last year. But again, they are just doing what Mohammad did.

We are doomed to tears and blood because of the evil that is Islam and the stupidity of our leaders.
Posted by kactuz, Saturday, 18 April 2015 10:27:57 AM
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Gawd this site attracts some prats.
Posted by Craig Minns, Saturday, 18 April 2015 10:42:42 AM
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Another deeply researched and well reasoned post by Craig Minns.
Posted by LEGO, Saturday, 18 April 2015 11:22:35 AM
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Gawd this site attracts some prats...
Posted by Craig Minns, Saturday, 18 April 2015 11:35:20 AM
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Perhaps Mr Ata would care to enlighten us with his thoughts on today's foiled plot in Melbourne.

Who can it be? What ideology drives them to do this?

My guess is that these people, whoever they are, are the very ones Mr Ata says are seeking "creative dialogue" to share with the Australians around them as they work for their version of "spiritualized social change".

If it is not the Rotarians, then it must be the Methodists. Who else would randomly kill people for no reason at all?
Posted by kactuz, Saturday, 18 April 2015 2:57:43 PM
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Yeah, after all, look at how welcome we make these young men feel...

Did I mention that this site seems to attract a lot of prats?
Posted by Craig Minns, Saturday, 18 April 2015 3:50:38 PM
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Craig Minns premise, is that young Muslims are terrorists because Australians do not make them feel welcome.

Islam is an intolerant religion which stresses to it's followers that Muslims are one thing, and everybody else on the planet is something else. Unsurprisingly, young Muslim men are renowned in Australia for their belligerence, proneness for violence, and their sneery contempt for any non Muslim authority. The hostility between Vietnamese male students and Muslim male students is already legendary in Sydney. The fact that Muslim teenagers are very big while Vietnamese teenagers are slightly built, is the primary reason why Vietnamese students in Sydney often carry knives in School.

The sneering contempt which Muslim teenage students hold for teachers, and female teachers especially, has resulted in some relief teachers refusing to teach in schools with high Muslim infestation. Sydney now has six schools in the "troubled" South West of Sydney with permanent security guards to protect teachers and students from violent Muslim students. If you read a Sydney newspaper, the term "troubled South West of Sydney" is a euphemism for "Muslim areas." Multicultural Newspeak.

Then there is the fact that young Muslim teenagers drive their cars like kamikaze pilots on crack. Road rules are for infidels, not for Believers. Police at Bankstown courthouse routinely watch young Muslim men who have lost their licences walk out of court and jump in their cars and drive away. Muslims compose 2.2% of the Australian population but in Sydney, the Middle Eastern Crime Squad is the NSW Police's largest department.

Ex-Detective Sergeant Tim Priest noted how Muslim crime was different to other minority groups. Usually, minority crime involved the victims coming from the within the same minority group. But with Muslim gangs, it is white Australians who were the primary target. Almost all of the 70 Australian girls who were gang raped by Muslim race hate rape packs in 2000, in Sydney, were white Australian girls

But to Craig, it is all the white guys fault. Keep it up, Craig. When you make statements which contravene observable reality, everybody knows who the "prat" is.
Posted by LEGO, Saturday, 18 April 2015 6:21:44 PM
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Gawd this site attracts a lot of prats...
Posted by Craig Minns, Saturday, 18 April 2015 6:55:24 PM
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No need for all this wordy argument.
Just observe Britain and France.

That is all you need to do.

"How many Christians have you thrown overboard today ?"
Posted by Bazz, Saturday, 18 April 2015 6:59:37 PM
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SECULARISM-SECULARISM-SECULARISM!
Posted by lockhartlofty, Monday, 20 April 2015 9:56:49 AM
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Gawd this site attracts Craig.
Posted by Is Mise, Monday, 20 April 2015 11:37:50 AM
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I don't understand how this gentleman, a Palestinian Christian, can have such high hopes concerning the Muslim presence in Australia.

For starters, all devout Muslims pray against non-Muslims, including people who don't give two hoots about religion, during their daily prayers.

Contrary to what our weak politicians and other apologists squeal, it IS about Islam, and not just Abbott's 'death cults' like ISIS.

Islam is waging war against us; and unless people who have the power start realising this, Islam will be the victor.
Posted by ttbn, Tuesday, 21 April 2015 1:07:45 PM
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ttbn, "Islam" is an idea: ideas do not wage war, that is the exclusive preserve of people (and some groups of chimpanzees).
Posted by Craig Minns, Tuesday, 21 April 2015 6:00:54 PM
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Yes, Craig, and what a disgusting idea it is. The people intent on jihad are following the idea. There Is only one Islam, and all its adherents are expected to be loyal to it, and abide by its dictates - world domination; convert, die or live in dhimmitude; follow the example of Muhammad (a vile liar and hypocrite with a twisted personality who, when necessary, conveniently discovered that Allah suddenly had another vicious way of dealing with his (Muhammad's) problems as they arose.

The Koran (the book of ideas), the Sunna and the myriad of hadiths all support the current bunches of lunatics abroad, and the young nutters in our own country. It's all there to see, if foolish 'infidels' would look.
Posted by ttbn, Wednesday, 22 April 2015 10:31:21 AM
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Dear Ttbn,

Please leave Muhammad, peace be upon him, out of this: his memory is yet another victim to this political conspiracy by those Arab thugs calling themselves "Muslims", of which he was no part, nor did he write the Koran, nor are any of those hadiths true.

The Koran was written long after Muhammad, beginning around 790 A.D. and edited well into the 9th century. Around that time, vague memories surfaced about this saintly person, Muhammad, beloved of God, who lived in the 7th century as a symbol of perfection. Sitting around their campfires, it became popular to make up stories about this perfect person, Muhammad, imagining "what would a perfect person do, how would he live?", each according to their own concept of perfection.

We know of 100,000 pages of stories about Muhammad that existed at the time, but only 3,000 (3%) of them were selected and certified as "hadith", then were attributed a (fake and retroactive) lineage down to the time of Muhammad. Most other pages would describe Muhammad, peace be upon him, as meek and mild, but this particular gang censored most of those and instead attributed to him stories of conquest, violence and rape - in order to justify their own way of living.

'Islam', if it were ever followed, is a wonderful concept: it means "surrender to God", placing God's will above one's own selfish interests. The converse and ultimate un-Islamic hypocrisy was for those who like to kill and rape, etc. to present their own faults as the "will of Allah", smearing his prophet with their own bad character, then pretend to be following "His will". Please do not fall prey yourself to their frauds.
Posted by Yuyutsu, Wednesday, 22 April 2015 11:51:09 AM
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Yuyutsu

Thankyou for your comments.

I am not out to upset anyone. I like to to seek the truth as much a you seem to. It is my understanding that Muhammed was illiterate - not unsusual for the time; so he could not have written the Koran, as you say. The Koran, like the Bible, was written, in stages long after the death of Christ, too.

As for Muhammad himself, I am only going on several books written on his life (by scholars). These all come up with pretty much the same story. And, with respect, those stories are not very nice and reflect very badly on Muhammad's treatment of Jews and other non-Muslims, particularly in Medina: killing, rapine, plunder, and so on; all in the name of Allah, or so he claimed.

Now, what can people like us, with differing opinions, do to find the truth? It's too late to ask the providers of the raw material after 7 centuries; but, if we believe other historical 'facts', we have to believe that there were eye-witnesses to Muhammad's behaviour.

It's a hard one, but my first question is - do you know of any accounts of Muhammad's life that contradict the writings I am familiar with? If they exist, they would originally be written in classical Arab. Like 99.9% of people, I certainly don't understand that. But, I would have thought that, by now, such books, if they exist, would have been translated into English (or some modern language) to combat would you clearly and sincerely believe are incorrect reports on the Prophet.

Referring to your final paragraph, I have to say picking the fraudulent from the truth is a big ask; their are so many different stories coming out daily - particularly from self-styled 'leaders' of the Muslim community in Australia.

Best regards
Posted by ttbn, Wednesday, 22 April 2015 2:47:18 PM
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Dear Ttbn,

The use of scientific, forensic and archaeological materials, including not only pieces of evidence, but also the lack thereof, can teach a lot about the facts.

You may be interested in Robert Spencer's book, “Did Muhammad Exist?”. He also wrote other books on Islam and there are numerous talks on Islam by Robert Spencer on youtube - you can start here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OZ0uV1GjyXI

Relying on different spiritual sources, however, I disagree with Spencer's claim that Muhammad did not exist at all, yet I agree with him that any connection between the historical Muhammad, peace be upon him, and current Islam are fabricated and that in any case, we sadly know little about him today.
Posted by Yuyutsu, Wednesday, 22 April 2015 4:37:10 PM
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