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The Forum > Article Comments > Progressives and feminists have been led astray on the question of the burqa > Comments

Progressives and feminists have been led astray on the question of the burqa : Comments

By Andrew Glover, published 13/10/2014

Capitalism celebrates individuals as independent creators of self-identity through the way we choose to conduct ourselves, the things we choose to buy, and particularly in the way we choose to dress.

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I think you would find most Australians do not care that much about the the scarf and head dress where the face is uncovered. That is a fashion statement cultural icon etc. However the veil and covering of the face goes against social norms and in this day where identity is important against our basic values and makes many of the population feel ill at ease, just as they would if a woman walked naked into a mosque.We have to fit into culturally accepted values. To use a religious ideology for something that is not from the Koran is pandering to a vocal minority saying our dress standards are not acceptable and we should change our values, rather than those that have chosen to come to live in this land.
Posted by hospas, Monday, 13 October 2014 4:10:39 PM
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Multiculturalism in Australia has its teething problems, yet some will say it’s a major fail. Wrong! They say one has to break a few eggs to make an omelette, is how this works. Generally Humans all get along quite well considering the national dress-sense that’s under fire and if that’s the problem, how shallow can you get? A very good trouble spot was raised on the fact of child/mother recognition abilities, seen to be another focal point. This to us, is a point of concern.
White/black and all shades of grey, Australians love their way of life and when threatened, they will beat their ape objections to the matter strongly, but not to the point of violence’s we see in other cultures of less real state. Street speaking, no-one gives a sh!t…if all you can do is point your fingers in someone else’s direction, you are in-fact, being a moron:) In Sydney, there’s too much money to be made, In Melbourne, they are just bored sh!tless, In SA, only psychopaths live there, In the top-end…well it’s just too hot to care about anything and last but not least:)…..WA……you will keep going into the water, won’t you:)
Jokes aside, Over-population is a mythical sense, as long as it don’t wipe us all out in the processes of us all just getting a foot hold on the planet science. (Leo lame)…Now, if three armed men/women was to entre a bank….not giving any ideas to the crime element…dressing up as a mail-box, then entering back into the general public….where there are lots of faces you can’t see, could be the perfect crime. $100,000 in cash:)
I would prefer seeing faces.

It makes us all feel better.

Tall
Posted by Tally, Monday, 13 October 2014 5:12:32 PM
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One point not covered re full cover is the matter of honor.
If a woman from a family that insists on the burqua went out without it,
the family would be highly offended and the father did not take action the
eldest son would.
The action could range from murder to thrashing with a cane.

I was in the lounge of a London hotel sitting next to a Turkish man and got talking about this and that.
He showed me a photo of his son. He did something very stange.
He covered half the photo with a card. As he put it away he partly exposed
the other half and it was obviously his wife.
Now if that is not very strange behaviour what is ?
It ties in with a quote I saw re the burqua;
"She has to wear it, I don't want other men looking at my wife !"
Posted by Bazz, Monday, 13 October 2014 10:13:58 PM
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I agree with most of the comments here, which is quite an achievement, considering I'm usually on the opposite side of most of the commenters.

I particularly agree with mac's comment that it's an issue that paints progressives and feminists 'into a corner'. From discussing this issue with many progressives and feminists, it's clear to me that they are troubled by the conflicting paradigms and fully admit to having 'mixed feelings'.

To say they have been 'led astray', as the author claims, is patronising to say the least.

As far as I'm concerned, and speaking as someone who considers myself (rightly or wrongly) as both a progressive and a feminist, I have no qualms whatsoever in endorsing moves to have the burqa and niqab banned in Western countries. As for Islamic countries, they can float their own boat.

However, the one argument I won't endorse is the one about 'the veil' being a foil for terrorists. Although there have been recorded cases where this has happened, I can think of much better anti-burqa arguments. I sense that right-wingers feel more comfortable with this argument, both because it plays on people's fears (which righties just love to do) and as a means to avoid having to address the arguments of progressives and feminists who blather on about individual choice and freedom of religion.

BTW - A poll taken by the Sydney Morning Herald a few days ago revealed a majority (54%) approving of an outright ban on the burqa/niqab. Considering this is the newspaper of choice for most progressives and feminists, it makes you wonder.
Posted by Killarney, Tuesday, 14 October 2014 1:50:04 AM
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bazz

'It ties in with a quote I saw re the burqua;
"She has to wear it, I don't want other men looking at my wife !"'

Your post made me think of the way things were when I was growing up in the 60s and 70s. I remember, as clearly as if it were yesterday, men often proudly proclaiming that 'No wife of mine is ever going to work'.

In fact, I used to hear this 'No wife of mine ...' declaration applied to lots of things - going into a pub, drinking beer (instead of ladylike soft drinks or shandies), driving a car, going on holiday or an extended trip alone, having their own bank account, buying things without their husband's permission ... etc.

That was only about two generations ago. And look how things have changed! In fact, I noticed that the same men who made those 'set-in-concrete' statements quickly changed their tune when they saw the benefits of all the money their newly independent working wives started bringing into the household.

What I'm saying is that, if we could leave Muslim cultures alone, the chances are that they will progress along the same lines as the rest of the world. What's restricting this is that Muslims are under constant attack and threat from the West, so they cling to their traditional belief systems - even though those belief systems have long since lost their relevance.
Posted by Killarney, Tuesday, 14 October 2014 2:08:38 AM
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Thank you for the article. It is helpful to start a dialogue on this issue.

Given time, I would just like to mention one major issue that you have so far overlooked (this doesn't mean that there aren't other issues that need to be taken up here). There is an entire sector of development, from which we have learned over decades now that imposing change from the outside does not work. Change must come from within culture. Genuine and sustainable change is best facilitated through a process of dialogue, identifying strong local leaders for change, supporting education of those discriminated, and supporting local movements to develop and implement their own agenda for change etc. this is particularly so in the context of the Western colonial beast being seen to impose its values on others.

Prohibiting the burqa just demonises the woman. It will often mean for example that she is then prohibited from leaving the house - further isolating her and excluding her from social interaction.

Women will not be used as tools against their own culture. They have seen gender be used to demonise their men and their culture time and time again. We have multiple identities and often multiple layers of discrimination. this issue is so very clearly the use of 'colonial feminism.' I suggest having a look at article by Michael Brull in which he shares Leila Ahmed's work - .https://newmatilda.com/2014/10/09/burqa-colonial-feminism-and-politics-dog-whistling ... It sets this position out briefly.

No one likes being told what they must or must not do. What better way to deeply embed the behaviour?? When will we learn from history?
Posted by EmmaS, Tuesday, 14 October 2014 3:04:12 AM
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