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The Forum > Article Comments > Roads versus railways > Comments

Roads versus railways : Comments

By Everald Compton, published 14/7/2014

So, it is now time for a dramatic change in national infrastructure investment away from roads and back to railways, so long as our railways are brought into the modern era rapidly.

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I agree wholeheartedly with you Everald. The volume of trucks on our highways is a very expensive nightmare. Successive governments have failed us by not investing in efficient transport infrastructure.

One of the reasons rail has not progressed is the power of the unions in the rail sector. Many attempts by various governments over the years to make any rail system more efficient have been thwarted by union belligerence and thuggery.

The unions that are the millstone around the neck of efficiency and progress in this country. We are unlikely to see much of your vision until some of their power is reigned in.
Posted by Sparkyq, Monday, 14 July 2014 9:09:55 AM
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Good article, but come on Sparkyq get your hand off it. The fact that it took over 100 years to get a Adeliade to Darwin rail link was down to unions was it?
Is it Unions stopping a link up of the narrow guage track in South Australia....no it isn't is it.
Is it unions not investing in track control tech to move away from sector control practices.... no.

Do a little thinking before you type Liberal party/2GB/Murdoc talking points
Posted by Cobber the hound, Monday, 14 July 2014 10:39:05 AM
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I still firmly believe that a Mono Rail would be the best solution all round in Australia. No embankments, no bridges, no crossings, minimal environmental impact, no flood damage, etc etc.
What could possibly be a negative re a Mono Rail ?
Posted by individual, Monday, 14 July 2014 11:01:22 AM
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Individual,

What do you mean by a monorail?
An elevated misnamed "monorail" such as we had in Sydney?

There are a variety of monorail designs, many of which are not monorails at all.

Imagine, if you can, a monorail freight yard, the mind boggles.
Posted by Is Mise, Monday, 14 July 2014 11:19:13 AM
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It just won't work Everald, the cost of transshipment at each end make rail impractical.

Here is one of the areas your unions have destroyed rails viability. I had a tractor shipped from MacKay to Howard by rail. I have no idea how they got it onto a rail flatbed, but getting it off was a comedy of large proportions.

I once rode a train from Marlborough to Rockhampton in my one ton ute when the roads flooded. They ran a few trains to get the backlog of cars through.

When we got to Rockhampton they pilled 5 sleepers beside the flatbed, & we drove off onto the passenger platform, no problem.

I suggested to the Howard rail people I would do this with the tractor. Hell, I didn't even need sleepers for it. No way, they saw a chance to waste time.

They brought some shunting thing from Maryborough, split the train, & shunted things about for an hour to get the car the tractor was on, out onto a siding. They spent another hour getting the thing to the end of a loading ramp. Another hour so was used up putting some ramps from the end of the car, the 4 feet to the ramp. After 5 hours, with 4 men, + a shunting crew, I had my tractor.

I can't remember what the freight bill was, but I'm sure it was less than the labour used to unload the thing.

Oh & Cobber, it was unions that forced the steam workshop at Chullora, Sydney to stay fully manned, costing millions a year, for 20 years after steam was no longer used.

I don't like the roads full of trucks, but rail is never going to be the answer for anything except extremely long distance freight. Even there it would require something like container ports to be viable.
Posted by Hasbeen, Monday, 14 July 2014 11:33:53 AM
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Imagine, if you can, a monorail freight yard, the mind boggles.
is Mise,
yes, the mind boggles indeed if your imagination is that limited !.
Posted by individual, Monday, 14 July 2014 11:49:22 AM
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Don't worry too much about the cost. The CSIRO's prediction of $8 a litre
by the end of the decade might not be spot on but it will be between
$6 and $12 a litre.
This will enforce a redesign of our transport links.
Hasbeen, all those problems you cite re your tractor are fast becoming
history. Automatic transfer stations between trucks and rail flat cars
overcome what you experienced. I believe there is one in Brisbane.

Intermodel depots in Sydney, say two or three and then trucks pick up
their containers and deliver locally. From what I have read the time
for the transfer is less than one minute.
The truck parks next to the flat car and the machine lefts the load
across.
Anyway there is no choice, we either do it or we do not have other than local freight.

I think it is too late to afford a Very Fast Train (VFT) with our
population and distances. The alternative is a "Fast Enough Train".
Rail track reconstruction to UK standards would give us high speed
passenger and freight and cut costs significantly.
Posted by Bazz, Monday, 14 July 2014 1:43:15 PM
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Regarding parcel and less than one container shipments a little delving
into the past might be useful.
Remember when every rail station had a parcels office ?
Remember the electric parcel vans that used to roam around the suburban
rail network ?
That worked and in these days of parcel tracking etc would be very
effective. A company with parcels to deliver, or the local post office
would deliver to & from the railway station parcels office in their electric
van, when delivered at the destination station, be it in the country
or city, it could be picked up or delivered by a courier with an
electric van such as the Renault Kangoo electric van.

With the electrification of mainline railways the cost of fuel and
even its availability would no longer be a problem.
Express parcel trains or vans could be run all over the rail network.
Further food could be delivered in this way for supermarkets by
half or 1/4 size containers to be picked by supermarkets at the
freight office.

More to the point, it is coming ready or not.
Posted by Bazz, Monday, 14 July 2014 2:18:42 PM
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Individual,

You haven't yet said what you mean by a monorail?

Do you mean a system that uses a single rail and has wheels in a single line with each other or do you mean, as in the Sydney 'monorail' an elevated narrow gauge train with additional retaining/guide wheels?
The monorail in Sydney was not a public passenger carrier but was licenced as an amusement ride as it could not meet the standards required of a passenger carrier.

Monorail construction in most of Australia would be prohibitive and probably cost more than conventional rail.
Posted by Is Mise, Monday, 14 July 2014 4:28:37 PM
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onorail construction in most of Australia would be prohibitive and probably cost more than conventional rail.
is Mise,
Only if you engage australian engineers & consultants. Use competent engineers from overseas but use australian workers & manufacturing & it wouldn't be a problem at all.
Just because some tourist fad in Sydney wasn't up to scratch doesn't equate into a Mono Rail not being a viable option. I guarantee you that a Mono rail would be the best thing since sliced bread for Australia. Ask anyone not educated here.
Posted by individual, Monday, 14 July 2014 6:03:17 PM
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You still haven't said what your idea of a monorail is; do you mean a real monorail or a tracked vehicle using guide wheels instead of flanged wheels?

The largest 'monorail' in the world is but 72 km long and there are no freight monorails because, wait for it, switching is a big problem. On ground level tracks points (switches) can be complex whereas monorail points can only serve one purpose.
The very latest monorail is that in Mumbai and that only has 8.9 km operational; I'm looking forward to a ride on it next trip to India, it terminates at Chembur where my wife's aunt and her family live so I've got an excuse to have a ride.
http://static.indianexpress.com/m-images/Fri%20Jan%2031%202014,%2000:35%20hrs/M_Id_458919_Mumbai_monorail.jpg
This is getting closer to a true monorail but it still needs wheels in three planes to work.
Posted by Is Mise, Monday, 14 July 2014 6:40:13 PM
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This is getting closer to a true monorail but it still needs wheels in three planes to work.
is Mise,
Mono means one as in 1. As for rail you can have two rails or one so, a monorail would mean one rail if I'm not mistaken.
I'm certain that once some engineers from say Germany or the States put their ideas together they could come up with something that shouldn't be too hard for Australians to copy, especially if the use migrant labour.
Posted by individual, Monday, 14 July 2014 6:49:54 PM
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Individual,

The only true monorails are the suspended ones and they are very costly to construct, that's one reason why there are so few of them.

A true on top of the rail monorail, that is one without any guide wheels or other supports can be built using gyroscopes for stability but it must have some form of support when its motor(s) stop, otherwise it falls over.

Conventional rail is the answer, see:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_Railways

"Indian Railways (reporting mark IR / भा. रे) is an Indian state-owned enterprise, owned and operated by the Government of India through the Ministry of Railways. It is one of the world's largest railway networks comprising 115,000 km (71,000 mi) of track over a route of 65,000 km (40,000 mi) and 7,500 stations. In 2011, IR carried over 8,900 million passengers annually or more than 24 million passengers daily (roughly half of which were suburban passengers) and 2.8 million tons of freight daily. In 2011–2012 Indian Railways had revenues of INR1119848.9 million (US$19 billion) which consists of INR696759.7 million (US$12 billion) from freight and INR286455.2 million (US$4.8 billion) from passengers tickets".

See also:http://www.indianrailways.gov.in/
Posted by Is Mise, Monday, 14 July 2014 9:40:44 PM
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is Mise,
So, because in madly overpopulated India they have a system from the 1800's Australia should not look outside the square ? I think Australia could become a leader in Mono rail construction if only they would do it without idiot shareholders demanding irresponsible returns before the first passenger boards the carriage.
A National Service could be involved to get the homeless off the streets.
Posted by individual, Tuesday, 15 July 2014 7:54:55 PM
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If the future Bazz predicts comes to pass, public transport of any type will be something we peasants may be able to afford perhaps once a week if we are lucky.

With out the revenue from fuel excise/taxes & other motoring charges, the money will not be available to afford the huge subsidies required to make public transport viable, it will not be something someone uses to travel to work.

We have enough oil under the southern barrier reef to fuel us for a centaury, & will harvest it when the need becomes great enough. Meanwhile we can switch to gas reasonably easily, certainly more easily & cheaply than building new railway infrastructure. Hell we could even go electric, if we wake up to ourselves & go back to coal to generate the stuff.

Yes travel may become more expensive over time, but I doubt I'll see much change in my lifetime.
Posted by Hasbeen, Tuesday, 15 July 2014 8:41:32 PM
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Hasbeen and others;
I think you are too pessimistic about the viability of railways.
Two reasons, the road network is heavily subsidised and rail has
nowhere near that level.
Secondly, there is not all that much construction needed to bring it
all up to UK standards. As far as the closed branch lines are
concerned the right of ways are mostly still intact.

In the US the railways are experiencing a surge of new business and
are profitable. At the same time trucks are losing business.
They have started installing CNG refueling stops along the main
highways to save on expensive diesel.
No doubt that will happen here also, provided they don't sell it all to China and Japan !

Rhosty has also mentioned oil under the Barrier Reef. I have never
seen any figures quoted and as far I can tell no drilling has been
done so is it just sysmic surveys ?
I wonder how accurate they can be.
A lot of these reports of "Huge deposits" often end up when divided
by 90 million turn out to be just a months supply for the world.
Anyway if we get desperate enough it will be drilled.

I agree Hasbeen we will not see the full impact but we are already
experiencing the first signs. $1.62 today. TAPIS $112 a barrel
Posted by Bazz, Tuesday, 15 July 2014 10:15:25 PM
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Individual,

Time before last up in Mumbai there was a team from Sydney's City Raip learning a few things from the locals on how to run a city's railway.

Railways make their money from carrying freight there is ndt one freight carrying monorail in the world outside of manually operated ones inside factory complexes'

The thought of a monorail freight yard boggles the mind.

Here's another so-called monorail,
https://c1.staticflickr.com/9/8109/8506758843_6f8dc5775c_z.jpg
Posted by Is Mise, Wednesday, 16 July 2014 6:13:20 PM
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Sydney's City Raip learning a few things from the locals on how to run a city's railway.
is Mise,
Well, that's like saying Mumbay laundries vs a laundromat in Sydney. The Indians have perfected the system of not losing track of what belongs to whom. A Sydney Laundry with that many customes would lose track in less than 5 minutes.
If India were to put as much value on a human life as we are forced to do in Australia then India would go broke in half a day. Can you envisage the train from Circular Quay to Parramatta having people hanging off the carriages like grapes ?
A Mono rail could be used for anything from passengers to freight. I don't know what makes you think it wouldn't work, perhaps you're a shareholder & can't wait for a return. I'm thinking along the lines of environmental impact & social benefits from an Australia wide network that can be built over the next few decades, creating many jobs along the way. Just keep the shareholders out of the project & all will go well & end up well. I for one would not be so silly as to expect such a network up & running within a year / It'd be a long-term investment with our descendents benefitting & also the environment. You need to stop thinking the Leftie way of "I want it now".
Posted by individual, Wednesday, 16 July 2014 7:32:11 PM
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Individual, you have lost the plot.
A monorail it totally away with the fairies.

Imagine replacing Chullora with monorails, it would need four times
space and a vey complicated switching system.
Ahhh, wont spend anymore time on that.

Double stacked containers I believe go west from Parkes.
Unfortunately they can't come to Sydney because of the loading gauge.
A lot of freight goes by truck or trailers on rail flat cars in other
parts of the world. I think the automatic transfer system which is
much newer will be the way of the future.

Again today I saw a freight train going through the local station at
something like 80 or 90 km/hr with a very large number of containers
behind, I could not count fast enough and lost count but I got to 55
before half way. Anyone who sees that cannot possibly argue that
freight by road is better. Incidentally they mainly go at night, all night.

Where could the trucks & roads come from to handle all those containers if the railways were not there ?
Posted by Bazz, Wednesday, 16 July 2014 11:05:01 PM
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it would need four times
space and a vey complicated switching system.
Bazz,
On what do you base that on ? You're starting to make me see why Australia is heading the way it is heading.
Posted by individual, Thursday, 17 July 2014 6:28:44 AM
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I am in the US and traveled along the western part of California - Chicago Line (Santa Fe Railway). It's two standard gauge lines like our Indian- Pacific line but takes 10 time the freight. Forty trains each way, up to 100 flat cars with double stacked 53 ft containers; sometimes whole 'Pantec' trailers on board. That line wouldn't have cost much more per km to build and maintain than our lines but look what it carries - that's cost effectiveness. Obviously they have got over the container transfer problem - that's not rocket science.

So yes, Everald, we need to use freight rail more and level the playing field by getting trucks to pay their way.

RE passenger rail yes Bazz 'fast enough' is good, say 200 kph max. Very fast rail is too expensive. Monorail not necessary as all the high speed trains go fines on normal rails and fast trains too expensive (agree with you there Hasbeen).

Elevating sections of the lines is the way, though, and also subways and tunnels. Manhattan electric subways were first opened about 1900. Long Island rail, which is mainly elevated in the denser suburbs, eliminating the need for level crossings, takes more than 300,000 passengers per day. Without it, the subways and increasingly bicycle lanes New York would grind to a halt - wouldn't be viable.

Closer to my home, when the Perth- Mandurah rail was being built some Luddites said it would be cheaper to put the few passengers in Hyundais and taxis them. Now it's already packed on rush hours because it's faster(140 kmh) and more comfortable than driving on the periodically gridlocked freeway that runs beside it. New suburbs are being built around it with values higher the closer to the rail.

PS Hasbeen as usual you're firmly rooted in the early part of the last century when it comes to your 'fossil fixations'; New York State already has about 40% carbon free electricity and there's a strong movement for mega- offshore wind farms here.
Posted by Roses1, Thursday, 17 July 2014 7:16:52 AM
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Individual;
Observation.
Posted by Bazz, Thursday, 17 July 2014 9:04:17 AM
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Roses1, when I worked in the Sydney CBD I loved rail. I could catch a train in Cronulla, read my paper, & arrive at work, with a few hundred yards walk each end. I hate driving in peak hour traffic, so left a car at the office to use for business transport.

This worked beautifully, while I worked in the city, when the company moved to somewhere near Fairfield, driving was the only way to get there in under 2.2 hours.

I am still waiting for some public transport lover to answer my main problem. How does a mother get one kid to child care & one to school on her way to work, & do the shopping on the way home, while picking them up, with widely scattered venues.

Our cities have been built with private transport available, & even old cities are now dependent on it. Public transport really only suits CBD workers, so why subsidies the public servants using them.

Individual, who is going to pay for these grandiose plans, if not shareholders. The tax payer sure can't afford public servants to do it. It would cost double the earth. A lot of the money building things is either superannuation fund money, or retirees money. Neither of these are philanthropic societies.

Funds need returns to pay their members, & to attract new members. I could easily be dead in less than 10 years. I want a return now. I'm about spending my kids inheritance now, not adding to it.

If as claimed Indian railways actually make money, great. They would be the only one on earth today that do. Building new ones really would be yet another exercise in losing money, & losing more faster.
Posted by Hasbeen, Thursday, 17 July 2014 11:48:22 AM
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who is going to pay for these grandiose plans, if not shareholders.
Hasbeen,
The main reasons why money is short is 1; the public service is way to large & 2; shareholders expect too large a slice of the profits in comparison to their investment 3; Negative gearing & general writing off from tax. This is money that should be there for infrastructure & essential services etc.
The whole show is out of whack with reality. It's getting this country to its knees. Foreign ownership of australian soil is something that'll bite us in the backside before long.
Plans are not grandiose at all, the only thing grandiose are the expectations of the shareholders & the lack of interest in changing this unsustainable mentality before it is too late.
Posted by individual, Thursday, 17 July 2014 12:59:48 PM
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Some seem to have forgotten that there was a time when negative gearing
was removed. It caused such a disruption to rental property when all
those landlords put their properties up for sale that it had to be
reinstated.

Either short memories or too young.
Posted by Bazz, Thursday, 17 July 2014 6:31:44 PM
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I haven't seen a single objection here that couldn't be easily overcome by application of known technologies, including making an overhead monorail freight service function effectively, simply by gearing up current parcel and baggage routing systems to handle containers.
Efficient and ubiquitous public transport with privately owned electric cars for local travel, and most of the city/suburban congestion is a thing of the past.
All we need do to fund all this is to kick out the duplicitous Two-Party System that's raping our democracy with it's corruption and self-interest.
Give us a government that truly represents the population and doesn't kow-tow to the big end of town and the sky's the limit, if even that
Posted by G'dayBruce, Sunday, 20 July 2014 12:40:53 PM
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G'dayBruce said,

"I haven't seen a single objection here that couldn't be easily overcome by application of known technologies, including making an overhead monorail freight service function effectively, simply by gearing up current parcel and baggage routing systems to handle containers...."

Well Bruce. you must have missed my remarks re the mind boggling at the thought of a monorail freight marshaling yard.

There is a proposal for a freight monorail in the USA using the latest technology but its purpose will be to carry goods quickly between two ground level trucking terminals; but it's not off the ground yet (pun intended).
http://blogs.dallasobserver.com/unfairpark/2012/08/a_freight-only_monorail_could.php

and a true monorail, but expensive to build although it has lasted well, having been in operation for over a hundred years.
http://www.monorails.org/tMspages/TPdoub.html

What we need is a definition of a monorail, I suggest a system where only one rail is used and in which all wheels run on that rail.
Posted by Is Mise, Monday, 21 July 2014 9:10:23 PM
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individual,

I well remember when people hung out of the doors on Sydney's electric trains before all the modern safety features were introduced to slow down the operation of the system; my early training in Sydney stands me in good stead when in India, I can get into a Mumbai suburban train faster than many of the locals even during peak hours.
Posted by Is Mise, Monday, 21 July 2014 9:24:49 PM
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A well informed and positive piece, Everald, and I notice that you've encouraged some lively and positive discussion. My article from last December may also be of some interest to readers: http://www.onlineopinion.com.au/view.asp?article=15784
Posted by Dr James Page, Monday, 28 July 2014 9:03:34 PM
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