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The Forum > Article Comments > Building in the wreckage: the reconstruction of Christian theology > Comments

Building in the wreckage: the reconstruction of Christian theology : Comments

By Peter Sellick, published 9/4/2014

Such a theology would abandon any idea that the thinking individual may come to clear and certain truths by means of his own reason. Descartes' promise has turned out to be absurd.

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Sells
I don’t think you or Barth dismiss other forms of knowledge as appropriate within their spheres, but as I understand it you dismiss both reason and material evidence as a basis for authentic belief in God. Only God can reveal God. Essentially that turns theology into a giant circular argument – albeit, in Barth’s case, an incredibly well-developed and internally coherent one. I see “faith seeking understanding” as more of a halfway house: the truths of faith are confirmed by human experience appropriated with the help of reason. But perhaps I’m too simplistic in my reading of Barth – I have spent much less time on him than you. Can you point me to his response to Bonhoeffer?

Sells and Yuyutsu
I think the reality of Jesus’ human existence is necessary to Christian theology. It is the very particularity of that life – grounded and expressed in a specific geography, history, culture and religion – that makes it able to express the divine to the human. It is also what differentiated Christianity from Gnosticism: if all we need is an abstract principle of goodness and spirit, we could have stuck with Greek philosophy.

William Temple described Christianity as the most materialistic of religions – by which he didn’t mean it values fast cars and big TVs, but that its focus is grounded in the reality of human existence in the here and now. God pronounces creation “good”; Jesus turns water into wine. I don’t think Christianity is sustainable without a human Jesus (which I’m sure Daffy and our atheist friends will agree with).
Posted by Rhian, Thursday, 10 April 2014 3:04:46 PM
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Rhian,

"reason and material evidence as a basis for authentic belief in God"

This misses Peter's point: reason and material evidence don't prove the existence of God.

Theology in not an argument, circular or otherwise.
Posted by RyanF, Thursday, 10 April 2014 3:17:07 PM
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how/to diss-miss..the cause...*of everything

101..SELLS...NAME*DROPPING..<<Newton..and his/friend..Samuel-Clarke>>
PRESUMABLE SAID..words..to THE affect..OF..

<<.What evidence..from nature/would you propose..can be used..for the existence of God?..>>..default/position=its..all/of..god

THEN..<<that any..*god..so proved..is..of the Monarchical monotheistic>>..WTF..<<.....identity..[?]..[AND?]..that does not approximate..the..*Triune-identity.>>..

the/holy-spirit..isnt..'god'.
so..you..resort to name dropping...IMPLIED/partial/biased..QUOTES AND AN..ULTIMATUM

<<..Any reliance..on evidence..[in nature?]..is vulnerable>>
I LOVE..THE BLANKET DISMISSAL..any..OF EVERYTHING..

VULNERABLE..<<to..[lol]..the next set...of experiments>>..[a religious-ritual?]..<<that proves>>..nuthin/much..if anything..at all.

IT..IN FACT PROVES..<<..that..the evidence..can easily be..[dis]..proved..to be..the result..of pure..[only]..mechanics>>..

even if not..simply/by..clever wording/exclusion..OF..all/HIS CREATION'S

IGNORING..OF COURSE..thus
THE CHIEF/true..MECHANICAL..[CREATIVE]..ENGINEER..OF COURSE

WHAT..we are/seeing here..iS ATHEIST..INDUCED..institutional/academic/BLINDNES..where..we know..the dates/names..but ignore..the mechanics..

no/know..[NUTHIN..TO SEE THERE..
NO.?..HOW DO..you/know...LOL]..wether god is.even/subject..or objective..or mechanic..so/certainly/..such/sure..finality...?

please realize..these people[academia]..are deceived..as much/as..they/decieve..materialistic/rewards...read/satan..has/so blinded them..To even/now..witnessing..life's..living/witness..[surrounding/us..as not anything..god physically..created/be..gone..from this realm..father?

result?..they see..nuthun/being/blinded/to\the bleeding obvious[all around them]

<<... Of course..this falls apart..for quantum mechanics.>>[off course?]

lol..of course..[after-all/we
are too clever/we alone..'know..it all/..lol
but lets..systematically[rote]..ignore that proof too?

DEMONS/CRY..GREAT..headed that one...off
at..the pass..[so..now..DO/GOD-ERs..cant prove anything]..so there..naa naa naa

<<..So...should we..evoke god>>..[insanity]

you provoke/god..even now..<<..at the quantum level?>>
so/whywaste ya breath?

<<Of what importance..would..*this god be..to us>>..to/you..lot..nuthin...so...yeah your right..

how do you sleep.at night?.....taking money/resources..given to god knowers..then*..ye know him not?..HUH?

YOU/even..deny him..CAUSE..and affect..in reality..[as if..the idea alone..is of..null affect

sells..MATEY..its pathetic
it really is..what is that term?..hypocrite?
you even...forgo the eternal spirit..you silly..BOYtWit WIT

<<..death bound...creatures...>>includes/you..deluded-few]..who are confronted..>>rather/than..comforted]..<<..by what Yannarus.?..describes...at[as?]..the ontological*problem>>of a living loving god

TOO/MANY...NAME DROPPING..PRETENDERS..are..WEARING SHEEP-[SKINS
[IF YOU CANT REVEAL..GOD...BY THYne..WORKS..you been deceived..out of trying

go ahead/quote..the/next..[ganti theod]o-isms..[
get out/of your temple..ou/.]..of the god business
write about things...you know..[godless/atheist writings]

what..ya cant find..a real job?
selling/stuff...you know/believe?
http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=16112&page=0
http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=16191&page=0

RECALL..THE EQUAL WAGES/PARRABLE=really applies....to GRACE..[lucky..eh?]
but heck..if ya deny reality..you deny..words/of god..too.?

your luckey jesus.isnt telling ya...a few home truths..

[oh..ye..unfaithful name/dropper]..
you see gods..self perfecting creation all around you/..and..yet..see nuffing...[poor thing?]

the next person..you see..look deeply..into
their eyes/..on the surface..its mirroring you/but look into the darkness/your looking at god...the one you deny...in writing..repeatedly

[whats with the peters..[sic]..of the world?...[all into denial?]
HEAR/THE ..feather duster/CROWING....MOOO?..

what benefits..your workings..to the one..inside of everyone
by denying..everyone..and everything?
Posted by one under god, Thursday, 10 April 2014 3:20:31 PM
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Ponder.

You said, "However, this belief is based upon the erroneous claim that an historical Jesus ever existed, ...."

Can you back up this statement?
Posted by Is Mise, Thursday, 10 April 2014 6:13:43 PM
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Dear Rhian,

I believe that Christianity can renew itself and adjust its theology accordingly.

There is of course no Christianity without Jesus, but historicity should not be required for keeping a vibrant Christian life.

The story and ideal of Jesus will still be told for ages to come and continue to inspire people to embark on the Way to God, but whether or not Jesus was once a historical man, is not important.

As I am not Christian myself, I believe that not one, but many perfect human examples like Jesus, who are one with God, were sent down across the ages to help mankind when religion was faltering, when the Way was lost and evil was on the ascent. Whether this or that particular example was in fact historical and verifiable is therefore less of essence. I trust that God would not allow the Way to be lost for those who seek Him: whether He uses this device or the other, this person or the other, is not that crucial.
Posted by Yuyutsu, Thursday, 10 April 2014 6:14:49 PM
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So, Peter, if we apply your principles to, say, rat-catching, the result would be that the last thing the rat-catcher should ever do is to confirm that there are, in fact, rats to be caught -- that would be a sign of appalling incompetence. No, the rat-catcher should go ahead and lay their baits and set out their traps on the blind unreasoning assumption that the rats are there; and lo, when no rats are caught, that only demonstrates that they are superfine rats of striking ineffability and incomparable evanescence!

My only question is: when rat-catching reaches this desirable state of profundity, who is going to pay the bills?
Posted by Jon J, Thursday, 10 April 2014 8:25:57 PM
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