An even better solution would be for Israel, Palestine and Jordan to form a single secular democratic nation and the whole world could jump for joy.

It is a crime of reason to persist with this religious state. Aside from Iran, we see this no where else but in Israel. All the accumulated wisdom of history says, move on. Every holocaust victim cries, move on. The Religious state is by any measure of decency wrong, anachronistic, barbaric, anthropological.

It is high time for the world to turn its back on this bile. Israel is a pariah, a grotesque mistake. To expunge the guilt of repeated pogroms and the holocaust the Western World made a grave mistake in enabling a religious state. The hypocrisy of continuously criticising a billion Muslims for their outdated prejudices and practices whilst at the same time defending an equally culturally backward and religious State of Israel makes no sense.

The road map to peace must begin with ending the religious apartheid. To achieve this the international community must unite as it did against South Africa: economic sanctions, trade sanctions, cease diplomatic ties, sporting and cultural ties. Only, when we have the courage to be honest and confront Israel by well established standards of decency will Israel take any serious steps towards a resolution with their Palestinian brothers or their neighbours.

Until such times, these peace roadmaps merely embolden Israeli settlement expansion and enmity towards their Palestinian victims.

Whats up David the 4 corners program bit to close to the truth for you,I see you are back to your usual prattle,you & your Zionist friends are loosing the war Dave.
And you on here posting BS about things aint going to stop it,as the Germans murdered Jews you have no problem with Settlers murdering Palestinian men,women,children & steal their homes land water what a great bunch of people your defending.
But then given the way you think everything the IDF and Settlers do and say is OK by you,all because of the deluded beliefs written down by tribes people describing myths and legends.
That in truth never happened,and no amount of your propaganda can make it different,I see more evidence is emerging about the WAR CRIMINAL Sharon just another bunch of Arabs murdered by him because they got in his way,every one involved knew but no one said a word.
Add that to his Lebanon murders among other things,but you Dave will defend him to the end,Israel learned well from the NAZIs so they are trying to use the same methods on the Palestinians.
They say imitation is the sincerest form of flattery,ring a bell Dave

#Yebiga

You state:

"It is a crime of reason to persist with this religious state. Aside from Iran, we see this no where else but in Israel."

Are you aware there are 57 Islamic States in the world - about 20% of the world's population?

In your words - is it "high time for the world to turn its back on this bile"

Are the following States also "pariahs"? Do they not practice "religious apartheid"?:

Afghanistan, Guyana,Pakistan, Albania,Indonesia Palestine,Algeria Iran,Qatar,Azerbaijan,Iraq,Saudi Arabia,Bahrain,Jordan,Senegal,
Bangladesh,Kazakhstan,Sierra Leone,Benin, Kuwait,Somalia,Brunei-Darussalam,Kyrgyz Republic,Sudan,Burkina,Faso,Lebanon,Suriname,
Cameroon,Libya,Syria(presentlysuspended),Chad,Malaysia,Tajikistan,
Comoros,Maldives,Togo,Cote d'Ivoire,Mali,Tunisia,Djibouti,Mauritania,
Turkey,Egypt,Morocco,Turkmenistan,Gabon,Mozambique,Uganda,Gambia,NigerUnited Arab Emirates,Nigeria,Uzbekistan,Guinea-Bissau,Oman,Yemen

Give them your message - loud and clear:

"The Religious state is by any measure of decency wrong, anachronistic, barbaric, anthropological."

Gosh - with a little bit of luck they might just put out a fatwa on you - and all your friends with the same views as you.

To #John Ryan

You are definitely in need of some calming down to eradicate your vile Jew-hatred.

Here are some recent developments by my "Zionist friends"

· Two major Israeli discoveries that could revolutionize treatments for Alzheimer’s.
· A new Israeli treatment for Attention Deficiency Disorder
· Israel won an international award in recognition of the number of women in Israel’s parliament.
· Israeli humanitarian work is expanding in both Syria and in the Philippines.
· An Israeli company is building Honduras’ first geothermal power plant.
· Apple buys Israeli gesture technology company PrimeSense for $350 million

Hate on ...

The 4corners program was edited to convey a specific, biased anti Israeli view, instantly absorbed by the witless to confirm their narrow media directed view. In this instance, the ABC was acting as a mere mouthpiece for the usual UN garbage.

As for the IDF? Well, perhaps when "Youssef Zeidan, a prominent Egyptian scholar and author, declared in a televised interview that Muslim anti-Semitism and anti-Israel attitudes were attributable to indoctrination, ignorance …and stupidity", he could have been referring to the latest ABC 4 corners episode. The Al Jazeera news anchor then asked on camera why Arab armies couldn’t be as humanitarian as the Israeli army in terms of trying to prevent civilian casualties".

I guess the ABC 4 corners mob left that bit on the cutting room floor, didn't quite fit the narrative you see.

Back to the substance of Mr Singer suggestion. The Jordanians, whether they like it or not, are a key player in the equation and will be feeling the discomfort of this position. I do not see why they should feel this way because, as stated by AbuIyad - "You cannot make a distinction between a Jordanian and a Palestinian....all those who tried in the past and are still trying to create divisions between the Jordanian and Palestinian people have failed". I guess we watch with interest to see what unfolds here.

David, the Israeli achievements you mention are not necessarily those of Zionists. I dislike two things about your articles: they convey the impression your Zionist views are those of all Israelis and they appear far too frequently on OLO without counterbalancing articles.

Candied. I take your point. For a countervailing view you could access the ABC, Bob Carr or even Tanya Plibersek. Unfortunately, they come without any links or reference to either current or historic legal support.

David, why do you not live in "Israel", instead of living here in Australia; a democracy.

David

But your list of countries who are supposedly practicing religious apartheid is perverse.
Turkey, Indonesia, Kazakhstan, cameroon - your not serious

Did you just pick these out at random?
Many of the countires you picked have like morocco 99% Muslim population.
Surely, one essential requirement would be at least some percentage together with a history of systemic violence and prejudice against its minorities.

By any sensible definition, Isreal is virtually on its own.

I am happy for you to cite legitimate examples.

I concede there are more religious states , however, than I had previously believed. On the flip side, it must surely be sobering for Israelis and their supporters to reflect on the company you keep by being classed with these theocracies.

Dear Yebiga,

We have just discussed this issue on Singer's previous topic, yet I am disappointed to see you repeating, many times over, the claim as if Israel is a religious state.

Say what you say about Israel - there is nothing religious about its behaviour.

The Jewish god is not God, but their own nationalistic invention. God never instructed anyone to behave that badly - you are offending without any true grounds all religious people, and not just Jews, by naming such perverse attitudes and actions as "religious". Please refrain from doing this injustice.

#Yebiga

The 57 countries I mentioned are members of the Organisation of the Islamic Conference:

Chapter II(2)of the Organisation's Charter provides:

"Any State, member of the United Nations, having Muslim majority and
abiding by the Charter, which submits an application for membership may join the Organisation if approved by consensus only by the Council of Foreign Ministers on the basis of the agreed criteria adopted by the Council of Foreign Ministers."

Get it - Muslim majority.

I am not perverse, I am serious, I did not pick these out at random.

Your views and opinions are ill-informed and directed by a hatred of Jews.

You round off your comments with this little gem:

"I concede there are more religious states , however, than I had previously believed."

An admission at last that your pompous utterance was wrong and revealed no real basis of the rubbish you were spouting.

Of course you cannot try to crawl out from under with this bit of arrant nonsense:

"On the flip side, it must surely be sobering for Israelis and their
supporters to reflect on the company you keep by being classed with these theocracies."

No Yebiga - if you have any vestige of credibility you should be shouting from the rooftops that these 57 States are in your own words:

"by any measure of decency wrong, anachronistic, barbaric, anthropological."

Bet you have never expressed this view about any of these countries. Israel seems to be the sole focus of your hatred.

Candide:

My views are those of a Jew who supports the right of the Jewish people to have its National Home in its ancient biblical and legally recognized homeland - recognized as the one Jewish State in the world alongside 57 Islamic States recognized in the world.

What is your view? Do you support the right of the Jews to have their own State?

Kipp:

What an inane contribution.

Have you anything to say about what appears in my article - anything?

If not - I suggest you crawl back under the rock with all your other Jew-hating friends.

Well David, implicit in my advice for Israelis was to consider the company they keep with these theocracies. Surely this suggests I am condemning them. Being a lawyer, I am surprised something so patent escaped you.

It appears impossible for you to post a single reply to me without wasting both our time casting an anti- Semitic slur. It surely must be apparent, I don't give a rats whether someone believes me racist or not. The term racist for someone like me living in a secular multicultural country like australia, who is not an apologist for violence against any people is entirely meaningless. You on the other hand have some serious psychic issues to grapple with. Moreover, Arabs and Jews are traditionally at least both Semites. So the whole anti-Semitic slur is simply nonsensical

It is of course no accident that you must at all times find anti-Semites. For what but anti-semiticism enabled Israel? What but this anti-semiticism sustains it, defines it? The very survival of Israel requires anti-semiticism. Lets be totally frank, Israel can not survive a peace - any peace.

Consider that, when I concede an error, you see this weakness as an opportunity to humiliate me and dismiss me. Concessions normally act as lubricant for greater rationality, reasonableness and even cordiality. You on the other hand have just found another anti-Semite.

You know full well that a secular australian such as myself is naturally repulsed by the kind of intolerant religious prescriptions prevalent in Saudi Arabia, or any kind of strict fundamentalism. If you doubted it, you could have asked.

Well, david we do understand. Anyone who looks at the Israeli problem understands. To support Israel requires more than a little fanaticism. The constant referencing to anti-semitism, the holocaust is vital - it is the only thread to humanity. It is all that is left of it. It defines everything and without it there can be no justification for Israel

Yuyudsu
I am sorry if my use of the word religion or religious is offensive to you. It is, however, virtually impossible to discuss Israel without referencing Religion. For it is precisely religion as that detailed in the Old Testament which supports and justifies the title claim for the land known as Israel.

Thus, I am at a loss as how to assuage your feelings and still take any part in this discussion.

Dear Yebiga,

Had the Old Testament indeed been directly dictated to Moses by God, as some believe, then we could have called that text 'religious'.

However, I believe that we both and practically everyone else on this forum, agree that this is not the case (including Mr. Singer, for otherwise he wouldn't be commenting here on the Sabbath, contrary to God's instructions).

Anyone can write a book with anything they like in it, but Zionists want you to believe that theirs is a religious scripture, that it has God's own stamp on it, no less. They would very much like to convince you that Judaism is a religion and their actions religiously-motivated, which simply isn't true!

I can therefore suggest that for example instead of 'religion' you could use 'Judaism'; instead of 'religious' you could use 'Judaic' or 'Hebrew', etc. These are only suggestions as I have of course no desire to interfere with your style and content.

To the person who reckons that 4 corners was biased I suppose if you think telling the truth is bias,funny thing is that it was a co production.
With guess who, The Australian dear old OZs greatest Israel supporter,to David, the Anti Semite line is a bit tired old son,but you seem to cling to it like a security blanket.
But then like Zionists everywhere you to can see the clock ticking,it may take a long time but you will lose & a single state will be formed.
As for you biblical reference utter rubbish.

Dear John,

What made the city of Sodom a symbol of sinfulness?

Nowadays, most people would lazily answer that it was for their "unnatural" sexual practices.

But the original legend is different:

Accordingly, they had a particular bed in Sodom where all guests to the city were made to lie in:
Those that were found longer than the bed were chopped down, while those that were found shorter than the bed were stretched until they reached the bed's length.

That's what will happen if you force Israelis and Palestinians, of such different cultures, to enter the same bed - none will enjoy the experience!

Have you ever asked the ordinary people of either side whether THEY want to live together with the others (I mean to actually live with daily, as good neighbours, not to dispatch the others away), or is it just some international ideology which you try to impose on both, as if they haven't suffered enough already.

Yes, the occupation and the hostilities must end, as they all deserve to live in peace and dignity, but let them each wear their own shoes!

David
I was wondering if you would grace us with your take on the growing number of Jews who are critical of the very existence of Israel. The Jews not Zionist movement which purports that The entire Jewish religion has been subverted by Zionism.

I for one would deeply appreciate you views and whether you could explain this phenomena.

#Yebiga

You use the term "anti-semitism" eight times in your response to my post. I never used that term once

I use the term "Jew-hatred" or "hatred of Jews" to describe people with views like yours - views that call for the elimination of the only Jewish State whilst apparently supporting the right of Moslems to maintain 57 Islamic States.

I can only point out the hypocrisy in your refusal to say outright exactly the same things about those 57 Islamic States that you say about the one Jewish State.

That is a clear case of double standards - one for the Moslems another for the Jews.

That is your entitlement. Don't weep crocodile tears and claim victimhood when your Jew-hating credentials are exposed to the light of day.

You aren't the first Jew-hater and regrettably you won't be the last.

BTW - please identify specifically who you claim to be "the growing number of Jews who are critical of the very existence of Israel".

How many are there and where are they based? Have you any articles you can point me to so we can have a facts based discussion?

I need to know where you get the information relied on by you which has prompted your question to me - especially since your ridiculous claim that Israel and Iran were the only two religious states in the world has been shown to be a load of codswallop.

Furnish the information and I will respond.

#Yuyutsu

There are many strands of Judaism who interpret the Old Testament in different ways -as there are different strands in Christianity and Islam.

Some Jews reply on Saturdays - some don't.

I find it intriguing that the "comments" section continues to be hijacked by people like Yebiga and John Ryan who have no intention of discussing or commenting on my articles.

That to me is a compliment in that they can find nothing they can challenge in my articles - seeking to divert attention from the message whilst preferring to engage in attacking the messenger .

There is a peace process under way - yet most people do not want to discuss it.

I wonder what motivates people to take the time to write as they do - mostly anonymously.

They seem hell bent on ending the Jewish- Arab conflict by getting rid of the Jewish State.

You grasp this cannot and will not happen.

Separation of Jews and Arabs as far as is possible has always been the goal of international diplomacy since the decision in 1922 to restrict the Jewish national Home to just 22% of the land of Mandatory Palestine originally intended for that purpose.

It continued with the Peel Commission in 1937, the UN partition Plan in 1947, the Oslo Accords in 1993, Camp David in 2000/1, the Roadmap in 2003, the offers made by Israel in 2008 and in the current negotiations.

All have been rejected by Arab leaders not prepared to divide Palestine between Jews and Arabs - whose rejectionist views still seem to find favour with many people like #Yebiga and #John Ryan.

The real regret is that the ordinary Palestinian Arab in the street has only once been given the opportunity to have his say.

You sum up the position so well:
"Yes, the occupation and the hostilities must end, as they all deserve to live in peace and dignity, but let them each wear their own shoes"

Dear David,

<<Some Jews reply on Saturdays - some don't.>>

Some Jews take the bible seriously and believe that its first 5 books were dictated directly by God to Moses who wrote them down accurately, intact with every tag, including even its music notes.

Other Jews believe that this is not so, who in fact consider the bible as nonsense, including many Jewish atheists who rely on archaeological, contextual and grammatical evidence to the contrary.

Then there are a third type of Jews who do not believe in the divine origins of the bible, but nevertheless use it when convenient with poker faces, notably among them, those who think that the bible starts and ends with the book of Joshua.

Do you personally believe that the bible was handed by God?
If so, what makes you deny the bible's verses which clearly instruct Jews not to light fire on the Sabbath (including the official oral tradition which is considered an integral part of the bible, according to which electricity is a form of fire as it produces sparks), but to accept wholeheartedly those verses where God promises the land to the Jews, then again deny those other verses, from both the Pentateuch and the prophets, which condition that same promise on appropriate conduct?

<<You sum up the position so well:>>

So if you so much agree with me, how come you do not reach the same conclusion - that Israel should withdraw from the occupied territories ASAP, build the big wall on its 1967 border, then make it known that after that withdrawal if any Palestinian dares even to stick their tongue across the wall, then all Palestinians will be bombarded and reduced to ashes?

You know very well that once Israel returns to its 1967 borders with no 'ifs' or 'buts', then there will no longer be there 'Left' or 'Right', 'National camp' or 'Peace camp', but instead a united Israel, armed to its teeth, willing and able to face any danger - that would surely stop any hostilities!

David
The peace process has been going on for 60 years. Entire generations have passed away without the slightest progress. During the same time the Irish and British have found common ground, even Stalins evil USSR has progressed and relinquished its Empire.

But Israel's inhuman contempt for Palestinians will not be restrained. The daily humiliation, persecution and intimidation of 2.5 million Palestinians can no longer be overshadowed by peace talks which are a mere ruse to divert global outrage.

We see you David, we know you. The tricks and lies are no longer effective, just sad. Playing the victim no longer cuts it. Israel is a well equipped, nuclear power, playing the victim may for a time still work at the highest levels in Washington but those days are number too.

It is time for Israel to join the brotherhood of man and stop making itself a pariah, a grotesque cruel embarrassment. As for jews not Zionists - you have heard of google?

David
I have no problem with Israel existing within its original UN endorsed boundary. I don't support the Zionist use of the bible to justify the claim to territory. What religious book was ever written that doesn't side with the home team? Just today we have report that parts of the bible are now proved to be nonsense - http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/andrewbrown/2014/feb/13/old-testament-camels-zionism-genesis - not that we should be surprised about that.

#Yuyutsu

Unilateral disengagement was tried by Israel from Gaza in return for which it received 12000 missiles fired indiscriminately into civilian population centres and numerous terrorist attacks and infiltrations into its sovereign territory.

Would you have advised Israel in your own words "after that withdrawal if any Palestinian dares even to stick their tongue across the wall, then all Palestinians will be bombarded and reduced to ashes?"

You are being extremely naive in calling for a unilateral disengagement by Israel from the West Bank.

I believe that any withdrawal by Israel from the West Bank will only take place after a negotiated agreement or after unilateral annexation of parts of Areas "B" and "C".

In my view that will not occur with the PLO but there is a chance it might occur with Jordan - the last Arab state to occupy the West Bank and East Jerusalem from 1948-1967

#Candide

Nice to know you are not calling for the elimination of the Jewish State of Israel.

I don't believe a Jewish state within the boundaries of the 1947 partition Plan is a possibility any longer. Too much has happened since then to make it a possibility.

The refusal of the Arabs to accept the Partition plan believing they could push the Jews into the sea was an enormous error. They still persist with this idea. Whilst they do so - any hope of resolving the Jewish-Arab conflict is on hold.

The best one can hope for is a return - so far as is now possible - to the situation prevailing at June 1967 that will have to take into account the realities now existing - namely 500000 Jews living in the West Bank and Jerusalem where none lived between 1948-1967 after all the Jews who had then been living there for decades had been driven out of these areas as a result of the 1948 War.

The PLO has made it clear it will never agree to such a proposal.

Maybe Jordan will.

Time will tell.

#Yebiga

You state:

"The peace process has been going on for 60 years. Entire generations have passed away without the slightest progress. "

You are wrong once again for the following reasons:

1. the peace process has been going on for 94 years since the San Remo Conference and the Treaty of Sevres in 1920.

2. Amazing progress has been made with:
(a) the Arabs obtaining exclusive control of 78% of Palestine in 1922
(b) Egypt signing a peace treaty with Israel in 1979
(c) Israel and the PLO signing the Oslo Accords in 1993
(d) Jordan signing a peace treaty with Israel in 1994
(e) 95% of West Bank Arabs now being under the full administrative control of the PLO
(f) 100% of Gazan Arabs being under full administrative and security control of Hamas

I am still awaiting your response to the following request:

"BTW - please identify specifically who you claim to be "the growing number of Jews who are critical of the very existence of Israel".

How many are there and where are they based? Have you any articles you can point me to so we can have a facts based discussion?

I need to know where you get the information relied on by you which has prompted your question to me - especially since your ridiculous claim that Israel and Iran were the only two religious states in the world has been shown to be a load of codswallop.

Furnish the information and I will respond."

When can I expect your response?

History can sometimes offer interesting parallels and warnings. The Jewish people of the 1st and 2nd century AD made such a continuous nuisance of themselves fighting with their neighbours and constantly dissimulating that the Romans lost patience and destroyed Jerusalem, evicted them, sold into slavery, dispersing them across the empire.

An entirely unusual and extraordinary thing for the Romans to do. In a 800 years of Roman Empire history it stands out as one of the more shameful actions by the Romans.

Here we are 2000 years later, they return and behold nothing has changed. They can't get on with their neighbours, they revolt, stomp, plead and infuriate. Poor dears Everyone hates them, everyone wants to destroy them.

no agreement can be reached without it being breached before the ink dries.

I fear it will end poorly. When the Rome of today, Washington, inevitably loses patience with this vexatious, take my ball home stomping, the never ending sooking and moaning, the billions of US gifted dollars will dry up, the boycott, divestiture, sanctions will become universal.

Dear David,

Are you so naive to believe in a piece of paper, or is it instead that you rely on the reasonable assumption that this paper will never arrive?

Suppose in the unlikely event that the Palestinian leaders sign a formal piece of paper granting Israel everything it ever asked for, even stating that they love the Jews more than their mother - are you going to believe them?

Wouldn't it be better to save the tree that was used to make that paper?

Ah, so there is Jordan: such agreement would be totally against their interests, but yes, if you grab them by the neck and tell them "sign here or I'll cut your water-supply", they may in fact sign - how kind and neighbourly!

If you so eagerly want this piece of paper even from someone other than those actually living in the West Bank, then why not ask Micronesia? They will surely give you that desired page with golden ornaments.

The 1967 poison destroys Israel from within. If Israel continues along that path, having lost its moral compass and no longer deserving to exist, it will disintegrate on its own: the Arabs don't need to do anything but wait! Israel's only hope is to run away from that curse, then lick its wounds.

Even if Abbas pretends to accept Israel's continued partial occupation, I will not and most of the world will not, not even one square millimetre resulting from the cursed 1967 war. Israel cannot hope to avoid sanctions that way and would remain at war - not with the Palestinians, but with the rest of the world.

If however, Israel fully withdraws, then it will become united from within and will also have my support and the support of almost the entire world (except some lunatics). Israel never ever enjoyed that status, even after its withdrawal from Gaza, because its occupation did not end. If at that point in time those silly Palestinians, despite having their land and everything, still play with fire, then Israel could nuke them out with the world's blessings.

Yuyutsu
You are now approving a nuclear strike by the Talmudic regime on Palestinians- I understand it is conditional - but nevertheless amazing and your religious you say?

It appears any kind of close contact with zionist Talmudic methods can cause people to lose their reason. Sorry, yuyutsu but all these anthropological religions are a curse upon the world and must not be tolerated.

The only acceptable solution in Palestine and Israel is a single secular state with Palestinian and jews living side by side. Anything else is criminal and will only precipitate further inhumanity.

The day of reckoning is at hand, the subterranean crimes are exposed. Wow to the servants of mendacity.

Dear Yebiga,

When peaceful people are attacked by madmen, unprovoked, they may use whatever is necessary to defend themselves, including nukes. This has nothing to do with what they happen to believe or practice in their internal affairs. I wish we in Australia also had nukes of our own so we wouldn't have to lick the Americans' bottom for our protection.

At the moment Israel is NOT peaceful and is driven by a coalition of secular pig-headed racist expansionists and a crazy messianic cult, the followers of Rabbi Kook (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zvi_Yehuda_Kook#Settlement_movement), who (falsely of course) believe that God wants them to conquer that land.

If however, Israel becomes peaceful and demonstrates that it has no territorial ambitions by withdrawing COMPLETELY from the areas it gained in 1967 and no longer interfering with the life of its neighbours, then it will be a normal country (already containing a 20% Palestinian population) and on the same footing as any other normal country.

If even after that the Palestinians still attack Israel, then it would be no different than Germany suddenly attacking France, in which case the French would have a legitimate right to respond with whatever weapons they have.

#Yebiga

You seem to have plenty of time to keep posting - but continue to ignore what is now my third request to you:

"BTW - please identify specifically who you claim to be "the growing number of Jews who are critical of the very existence of Israel".

How many are there and where are they based? Have you any articles you can point me to so we can have a facts based discussion?

I need to know where you get the information relied on by you which has prompted your question to me - especially since your ridiculous claim that Israel and Iran were the only two religious states in the world has been shown to be a load of codswallop.

Furnish the information and I will respond."

When can I expect your response - or are you unable to back up your claim with substantive facts?

Put up - or have the decency to withdraw your unsubstantiated statement.

#Yuyutsu

Some pieces of paper mean something - like the peace treaties between Israel and Egypt and between Israel and Jordan.

Others can be meaningless - like the many agreements between Hamas and the PLO for reconciliation.

Given Jordan's 15 year peace treaty with Israel - an agreement on dividing the West Bank between Israel and Jordan could reasonably be expected to be capable of being honoured and respected by both sides.

No agreement is possible with the PLO . Twenty years attempting to get such an agreement is evidence enough to support that conclusion

Dear David,

So here is one thing we agree on:

- No agreement is possible with the PLO.

Yes, Jordan's beloved and great king is reliable, but taking on the West Bank (or parts thereof) would be against his and Jordan's interests - there is no need from him to inherit Israel's curse and he is not an idiot!

Yes, Israel could probably blackmail Jordan to take the West Bank, as Jordan cannot survive without the water it gets from Israel - but that would prove that papers signed by Israel mean nothing either.

Given no agreement will ever occur, it all boils down to the simple question: should Israel retain the territories it took in 1967 forever, or not.

Myself and the rest of the world will not allow Israel to keep its 1967 territories, but even if we do nothing, those territories will prove Israel's nemesis which will eventually end it from within.

David
This existance of anti zionist jews has you in a fever it seems. I advised you several posts ago to google it - jews not Zionists.

While I have your attention, can you perhaps explain to me this paradox. How is an intelligent person, educated, informed of history and mans historical struggle to overcome barbarism to reach this contemporary level of sophistication, technical know how etc; how can such a person regress into nationalism, make of his religion some crusade, distinguish him/her self by these anarchronistic, tribal, ancient blood rituals?

You see David, the difference between you and me. I am no man, or every man, I am brother to Jew, Muslim, Christian. Buddhist or atheist alike. I care not for their private relationships with their imaginary friends as I expect them not to care for mine.

You on the other hand live and reside in this country to consistently promote nationalistic, religious distinctions. Constantly harping on these distinctions here and abroad. This is your game, a cruel and despicable game - the results of which are always brutality, hatred and mendacity.

You motivations are best known to yourself and your maker. My purpose is simple, to protect the natural wisdom of the australian character from any further regression into this ancient blood lust.

#Yuyutsu

You labor under a serious misapprehension when you state (as do so many others):

" should Israel retain the territories it took in 1967 forever, or not."

The territories taken by Israel in 1967 have been divided into Areas "A", "B" and "C".

The PLO has gained complete administrative and security control of Area "A" and complete administrative and joint security control of Area "B" - both areas covering 40% of the West Bank and 95% of the Arabs who live in the West Bank.

Israel currently retains full administrative and security control of the remaining 60% -(Area "C")- in which only 5% of the West Bank Arab population lives.

Since the total area of the West Bank fits into Tasmania twelve times - the area of land we are talking about in Area "C" is very small - but strategically important for Israel - besides forming part of the ancient and biblical homeland of the Jews in which the Jewish National Home was to be reconstituted pursuant to the Mandate for Palestine.

Israel has indicated in offers made in 2000/2001 and 2008 that it would be prepared to withdraw from a substantial part of Area "C" in return for that piece of paper you seem so keen to ridicule.

It cannot get the PLO to sign up - as the last 20 years has proved.

Jordan can do the deal and thereby restore the status quo to that area it obtains which existed prior to June 1967.

With the PLO, Hamas and Al Quaida breathing down his neck - Abdullah needs Israel and America's support if he wants to preserve 90 years of Hashemite rule in Jordan - 78% of former Palestine.

Add a few billion dollars to economically revive the Arab parts of the West Bank returned to Jordan - and there is a formula that could work.

Not one Arab or Jew would have to leave his home or business in the West Bank under these proposals

If I was their lawyer - I would urge Jordan to grab the offer with both hands.

Wouldn't you?

#Yebiga

One day:

"I am brother to Jew, Muslim, Christian. Buddhist or atheist alike. I care not for their private relationships with their imaginary friends as I expect them not to care for mine."

On another day:

"The Religious state is by any measure of decency wrong, anachronistic, barbaric, anthropological.

It is high time for the world to turn its back on this bile."

Some brother...

For the fourth time:

"Please identify specifically who you claim to be "the growing number of Jews who are critical of the very existence of Israel.

How many are there and where are they based? Have you any articles you can point me to so we can have a facts based discussion?

I need to know where you get the information relied on by you which has prompted your question to me - especially since your ridiculous claim that Israel and Iran were the only two religious states in the world has been shown to be a load of codswallop.

Furnish the information and I will respond."

I am not going to search the Internet to find out whether there is any basis for your claim. You made it. You substantiate it. I will then be happy to discuss it.

In the face of your continuing evasive responses I can only conclude you do not have any evidence to support your claim.

Dear David,

<<in Area "C" is very small - but strategically important for Israel>>

Small as it may be, it's strategically important for Israel to have nothing to do with it, as area "C" contains, along with Eastern-Jerusalem, the most virulent strain of the poisonous sting which Israel swallowed in 1967.

<<Jordan can do the deal and thereby restore the status quo to that area it obtains which existed prior to June 1967.>>

(that status-quo, BTW, included ALL West-Bank and Eastern-Jerusalem)

But it would be suicidal for them. Why should anyone want to stick their healthy head in a sick bed, or have anything to do with the Palestinians and their cursed land? Do Jordanians want to become land-occupiers? Would Jordan like the Boycotts-Divestment-Sanctions movement to turn against them instead?

<<Abdullah needs Israel and America's support>>

Which you suggest to withdraw unless his majesty succumbs and participates in dirty schemes.

<<Add a few billion dollars to economically revive the Arab parts of the West Bank returned to Jordan - and there is a formula that could work.>>

If you have those billion dollars to spare, why give them to a middleman? Jordan is indeed a poor country, but not THAT desparate (have you seen their beautiful new terminal-building in Amman, built about a year ago instead of the decrepit old terminal that was falling apart? That shows that they can handle themselves quite well).

<<Not one Arab or Jew would have to leave his home or business in the West Bank under these proposals>>

This should be their private affair: nobody should be pulled out of their home by force, as it was a grave mistake in Gaza, but the Jews who decide to remain across Israel's border should not expect to be protected by Israel.

<<If I was their lawyer - I would urge Jordan to grab the offer with both hands.

Wouldn't you?>>

Of course I would, as lawyers always like to seduce their clients into mischief, but then I would also end up in hell once departing this temporary existence... Thank God I am not a lawyer!

David it is patently obvious that there is entirely no point in discussing anything with you.

I congratulate your cult on its amazing success. Its ability to twist logic, to subvert morals, to manipulate emotions, to rewrite history across a global theatre is unprecedented. Joseph Goebbels is a greenhorn in comparison. I perfectly understand why anyone would succumb to this patent display of superiority.

Having now reached the pinnacle of power thru a repeated formula of ingration and betrayal, how do you ensure the same formula does not now consume itself? Why would the cycle of betrayal stop? The seeds of self destruction are planted on the road to triumph. People will work together for a purpose but once a purpose is realised its always anti-climactic. The exulted position being impossible to sustain quickly chases its own destruction. The historical examples of what I have just revealed to you are countless.

The other lesson from history worth remembering is to be careful who you offend on the way up, because they will not forget you, when you are on way down

#Yebiga

After another diatribe you still fail to justify your statement claiming there are a "a growing number of Jews who are critical of the very existence of Israel."

I asked you the following questions:

"How many are there and where are they based? Have you any articles you can point me to so we can have a facts based discussion?

I need to know where you get the information relied on by you..."

Your continued failure to respond after making such an allegation is regretted.

In your own words:
" it is patently obvious that there is entirely no point in discussing anything with you."

David, my G-d, I am sorry
I think I have the answer, its so obvious , as the best answers usually are.

The Palestinians just simply convert! You see! Its genius!
They convert to Judaism enmasse - all hatred over, its amazing. I can't see a single flaw.

Infact, I think the whole world, we all just convert. We become Jews! All of us - its
Universal peace. What's in a name anyway, as The Bard said.? As far as I am concerned we can rename the earth too to Zion - that's optional of course.

But yes, I am now a Jew. We all are.its one big Jewish world. Its not like the Torah is that foreign to Christians and Muslims. Its a simple transition.

I am going to sing this to the world - oh it's beautiful
It is just like john lennons song imagine, well its close, no religion or one religion same - no distinctions.

May G-D bless you and forgive me for my previous ignorance.

Dear Yebiga,

Please read Genesis chapter 34 before being so hasty.

Yuyutsu
Genesis chapter 34 is good advise not to rape a woman

On this subject the relevant citation is Exodus Chapter 24: 30 to 33

Dear Yebiga,

<<On this subject the relevant citation is Exodus Chapter 24: 30 to 33>>

Then we should all convert to Judaism on the 30th this month.