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The Forum > Article Comments > Independent schools contribute significantly to Australian education > Comments

Independent schools contribute significantly to Australian education : Comments

By David Robertson, published 31/1/2014

The new school year has kicked off with many of the familiar themes once again in the media spotlight including, unfortunately, a revival of the old public versus private schooling debate.

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Dear Shadow Minister,

That is simply not true. The independent schools are class and religion segregated. The segregation exists to a very high degree.

There is a cost to that segregation.

I know you like to bash the unions, but the public schools are not failures. Eliminate government funding for the independent schools and devote that funding to improve public schools. There is nothing wrong with having a Teacher's Union and allowing that union a voice.

Independent schools are a parent's choice, and the general public should not have to pay for that choice. If the independent schools were really independent my taxes would not pay for them. It might help to stop the lying of calling them independent. There are no independent schools in Australia. Truly independent schools would not receive state subsidies.
Posted by david f, Saturday, 1 February 2014 12:29:25 PM
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David,

With all due respect, generally the people that make claims about private schools like you do, have seldom any experience of private schools.

Private schools draw most of their pupils from the surrounding area, and the ethic and other make up reflects this. The mix of Mosman High students does not differ from Redlands, this is also true of most other schools. My son's maths class includes a Malaysian Muslim, a Jew several Chinese and an Indian, amongst others and this is a GPS school.

As most private schools are not the high end Scotts college and the majority (about 75%) would close if the subsidy was removed flooding the existing public schools with a 60% increase. At the cost of education public school students costs the governments nearly double what private schools cost, the public schools would be left with less per pupil, crowded facilities, and based on existing outcomes results would plummet.

This is precisely why Labor while ideologically opposing private schools have not been stupid enough to abolish them.

As for the teachers' union, my wife worked as a teacher for a while, first in the public sector and then in the private sector, and is absolutely scathing of the protection offered to the significant incompetent teachers who were often paid more than other senior capable teachers simply based on seniority.
Posted by Shadow Minister, Saturday, 1 February 2014 1:53:07 PM
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SteeleRedux,

You are right, though I do not jump to the conclusion that the increase in private education is the cause of our small relative decline, just as I don’t jump to the conclusion that it was caused by the modest increase in expenditure over various periods. It is not the existence of private schools per se that does any damage. It is the social stratification that follows from the Howard Gonski funding model. If all private schools were free, they would not promote social stratification. This social stratification was ameliorated by the ‘no losers’ compensation of the Howard government, but the Labor government decided to phase this ‘no losers’ compensation out and force all schools onto the Howard SES model, a fact you will not read in any media coverage, so the social stratification will probably increase over the long term under the Gonski model.

Shadow Minister,

The teacher unions do not dominate the public system, at least in Victoria. If they did, teachers’ pay would not be far worse than it was four decades ago, their teaching conditions would not be worse than they were three decades ago, and their security of employment would not be worse than it was two decades ago. Nor would there be national testing or A-E reporting, as both were vehemently opposed by the teacher unions. The oft-made claims of union domination are, like the other oft-made claims of a highly centralised system, the ineffectiveness of smaller classes and huge increase in real expenditure, completely untrue. They are just repeated ad nauseam so no one even asks for evidence.
Posted by Chris C, Sunday, 2 February 2014 4:34:28 PM
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Chris,

I cannot comment on Victoria, but the public schools in NSW are virtually a closed shop, and the principles of the schools have only a minimal input into the hiring of teachers, and no power to dismiss them for anything other than criminal conduct.
Posted by Shadow Minister, Monday, 3 February 2014 12:06:35 PM
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Shadow Minister,

The media always writes as if NSW equals Australia. NSW is more centralised than Victoria, yet its results in NAPLAN are very similar to Victoria’s, telling us that school management autonomy does not make much difference.

The same accusation re “no power to dismiss teachers” is made here, but it simply is not true. Principals can initiate dismissal proceedings, but they have to follow natural justice principals. They can’t just sack a teacher on a whim. My experience tells me this is a good thing.
Posted by Chris C, Thursday, 6 February 2014 12:57:36 PM
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Chris,

With all due respect, While principals can initiate disciplinary procedures, most know that trying to do so will invoke the wrath of the unions and zero support from the department. I personally have never heard of a public school teacher being dismissed for incompetence. Perhaps you could enlighten me.

The hybrid option that Pynne is looking at where 25% of public schools are converted to fully funded independently run schools sounds like it has a good chance of improving the country's achedemics.
Posted by Shadow Minister, Thursday, 6 February 2014 1:23:33 PM
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