The National Forum   Donate   Your Account   On Line Opinion   Forum   Blogs   Polling   About   
The Forum - On Line Opinion's article discussion area



Syndicate
RSS/XML


RSS 2.0

Main Articles General

Sign In      Register

The Forum > Article Comments > Another 'True Believers' election? > Comments

Another 'True Believers' election? : Comments

By Jo Coghlan, published 4/9/2013

It's been 20 years since Keating won the 'sweetest victory of all'. Can Rudd top that?

  1. Pages:
  2. 1
  3. 2
  4. 3
  5. 4
  6. 5
  7. 6
  8. All
>>While political commentators and journalists are obsessed with opinion polls reflecting voting trends, they rarely consider the impact of voting trends on seats.>>

Balderdash!

The newspapers have been full of polling in marginal seats. Here is a recent one:

>>Poll blow for Labor in Vic marginal seats>>

http://news.theage.com.au/breaking-news-national/poll-blow-for-labor-in-vic-marginal-seats-20130823-2sez5.html

>>Labor looks set to lose two key Victorian marginal seats, but should hang onto a third, a Galaxy Research poll shows.

Liberal candidate Sarah Henderson is well ahead in Australia's most marginal seat of Corangamite, leading Labor MP Darren Cheeseman 56 to 44 per cent on a two-party preferred basis, the poll published in News Corp Australia papers shows.>>

If anything the polling shows that Labor is doing worse in the marginals than nationally.

Given that this piece starts from a demonstrably false premise further comment is superfluous.

Full disclosure:

I feel no affinity for any party. I shall neither celebrate nor mourn whatever the outcome on Saturday.
Posted by stevenlmeyer, Wednesday, 4 September 2013 7:34:09 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
I hope that the Australian people give 'the suppository' what he deserves given his non-release of costings.

I also hope they give Kevin the chance he deserves and prove beyond all doubt that Australians believe in the 'fair-go'.
Posted by David G, Wednesday, 4 September 2013 7:38:19 AM
Find out more about this user Visit this user's webpage Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
The sheer laughable stupidity of any Labor supporter acccusing the Liberals of not accounting for money properly just defies belief.

The selfishness, conceitedness, economic illiteracy, and thuggishness of the Labor voters is on display in this election as never before.

The best that they can claim for Labor, their supposedly high points of policy, namely Gonski and the disability scheme, still only amount to promises to spend lots of money they don't have. And that's what really impresses the rusted-on Labor voters! They operate at the moral and intellectual level of an infant.

While they certainly deserve the worst that Labor can do to anyone, the problem is, the rest of us don't, while democracy enables the grasping amoral moron sector of the population to externalise the costs of their stupidity onto everyone else.
Posted by Jardine K. Jardine, Wednesday, 4 September 2013 9:57:49 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
If Mr Rudd were actually a true believer, perhaps?
However, one can fool all of the people some of the time, some of the people all of the time, but not all of the people all of the time!
If there were no green party, I for one. would be putting New Labor at the bottom of the ballot paper!
Rhrosty.
Posted by Rhrosty, Wednesday, 4 September 2013 10:00:47 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
J.K.J. It is said that one third of us understand politics, another third understand economics; with the remaining forty percent, who understand neither, deciding all elections?
Rhrosty.
Posted by Rhrosty, Wednesday, 4 September 2013 10:05:47 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
The best long term hope for the ALP is a solid loss in which K Rudd loses his seat. This will enable the party to work out a new balance between its aspirational wing and its old time hard left wing. If Rudd continues in Parliament, however, he will distract all efforts at renewal with his relentless focus on himself. He will surely lose the leadership but if he holds his seat, the party will be faced with another three years of him undermining his replacement.
Posted by Senior Victorian, Wednesday, 4 September 2013 10:08:57 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Excellent comment Rhrosty, politics, economics and ignorance.

Your comment reminded me of a quote I had read while studying for an assignment.

Educate and inform the whole mass of the people... They are the only sure reliance for the preservation of our liberty.
Thomas Jefferson

http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/authors/t/thomas_jefferson.html#5Vp7DVhvrA2plzeX.99
Posted by RandomGuy, Wednesday, 4 September 2013 10:19:15 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
True believers scenario, what rubbish.

Keating won in 1993 by going against the very issues he supported passionately in the 1980s, the GST. Sure he exploited the issue like the political animal he was, but told where to go in 1996.

As for 2013, why should true believers vote again for the biggest tosser that ever led (and dominated) a Labor Party?

I am a true believer in what happens to battlers, but voting for Labor again would be one of my biggest acts of stupidity. This will be the second time (in a row) that I don't vote for Labor at a federal election. I would like to think I have better reason to vote for it next time, but who knows.

Get rid of Rudd forever would be a good first step. And look beyond Bill Shorten would be a sound second move.
Posted by Chris Lewis, Wednesday, 4 September 2013 10:19:45 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
David G,

I think TA’s reference to KRudd trying to present himself as the “suppository” of all knowledge is spot on. Slightly Freudian perhaps but lets face it, we all know from where KRudd pulls all his policies?
Posted by spindoc, Wednesday, 4 September 2013 10:32:25 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Excellent postmodern analysis of contemporary politics in Australian society with a complete disregard of reality.
The validity of any consequent prediction of the outcome of this Saturday’s election will undoubtedly stand, proudly, alongside the other fruits of postmodern theory.

So little evidence and so much opinion!

It is a good thing that this authors work is presented on a free blog otherwise it would represent an unconscionable waste of the paper upon which it was printed.

And by the way any thoughts on the discovery of faeries at the bottom of my garden?

'Ceterum autem censeo Kevinum Scardinium delendum esse'as others have said elsewhere.
Posted by CARFAX, Wednesday, 4 September 2013 10:36:18 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
I am wholeheartedly with those others who are saying that the best possible outcome for the ALP on Saturday would be a resounding loss. It would be fitting if Rudd were to lose his seat, but even as a back-bencher, I think we have all seen through him now.
It's not so much that I am an Abbott fan, although I do expect he will prove to be a better PM than has been predicted, but a loss will cause the ALP to look within itself and, hopefully, rise phoenix-like as a born-again great political party.
And I do hope they get a wriggle on. Australia will need an effective opposition to help Abbott govern for all of us.
Posted by halduell, Wednesday, 4 September 2013 10:55:43 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Rhostry
LOL. Too true.

I admit feelings of relief and gratitude towards those swinging voters who are about to kick Labor out. But then I reflect “Hang on. These are the morons who voted them in last time.”

It’s like, how could you look at anything that Labor said last time or in 2007, and not understand that it was an amalgam of lies and stupidity?

halduell
“and, hopefully, rise phoenix-like as a born-again great political party.”

It think that’s is a comment without understanding of history or theory.

The reason we keep getting bad governments, on both sides of politics, is because people persist in the belief that government is some kind of benevolent institution, and that the lies and anti-social actions of governments are some kind of strange coincidence. All experience, and true theory, prove otherwise.

The whole point of theory is to explain complex reality, so it’s time to jettison the failed theory that government “represents” society better than society represents itself, that government presumptively represents the greater good, and take a good critical look at the credulous adoration of the god-state underlying our repeating disappointment with the major parties.

Let’s try a rational theory with more explaining power.

"The government consists of a gang of men exactly like you and me. They have, taking one with another, no special talent for the business of government; they have only a talent for getting and holding office. Their principal device to that end is to search out groups who pant or pine for something they can’t get, and to promise to give it to them. Nine times out of ten that promise is worth nothing. The tenth time is made good by looting A to satisfy B.

In other words, government is a broker in pillage, and every election is a sort of advance auction sale of stolen goods."
H.L. Mencken
http://economics.org.au/

The missing value in Australian public discourse is freedom itself. We don’t need a bit more political messiahs with more visions of what to force everyone else into; we need a lot less.
Posted by Jardine K. Jardine, Wednesday, 4 September 2013 12:10:13 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Jo,

For there to be a "true believers" victory, there has to be true believers. There are many differences between Rudd's campaign and that of Keating.

The first is values. Labor under both Rudd and Gillard have flip flopped over nearly ever single policy, in addition they have promised much and delivered very little or the exact opposite of what they promised.

The second point is about personalities. Rudd has a nasty streak, and was not able to hold it in. While he was a back bencher he was popular, now he is in the public eye, people remember why they disliked him the first time. His crooked attempt to use phoney figures to discredit TA was shot down in flames by the Treasury and left him with no credibility on the issue.

The final point, is that Abbott is shrewd enough to learn from the past where Hewson in great detail laid out all his plans more than a year ahead of the election enabling Keating to cherry pick the good policies and run the mother of all scare campaigns on the rest. Abbott while holding the flame to Labor has kept most of his cards hidden until Labor has played theirs. Kevin's blunder has now given him a justification for doing so.
Posted by Shadow Minister, Wednesday, 4 September 2013 12:16:18 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Talk about wishful thinking. But Jo goes past mere wishful thinking, into the realm of self delusion. Delusion is not good, but self delusion gets to be dangerous. Once you get to that stage, you can talk yourself into believing almost anything.

What really worries me is that someone so inclined should be in a position to fill the minds of kids with this stuff.
Posted by Hasbeen, Wednesday, 4 September 2013 12:59:51 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
@Jardine K. Jardine
I have no trouble in agreeing with your utopian theory about how we need to get over being led by different groups of self-styled leaders with agendas of their own, agendas all too often hatched in those smoke-filled back rooms (are they still smoke-filled or is tobacco banned back there now as well?). But that just isn't how the game is played today. Nor is it how the game will be played tomorrow. Maybe someday in the future we can have a better system, but for now representative democracy seems to be the best option available.
Therefore, Australia needs an effective opposition to whichever group currently holds office to ensure that the office holders remain representative and govern for all of us. Hence I repeat my hopes that the ALP can clean out their stables and get back to being the great political party they once were.
Posted by halduell, Wednesday, 4 September 2013 3:30:06 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Keatinge didn't win, sense was outnumbered that's all.
Posted by individual, Wednesday, 4 September 2013 8:46:17 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Tony Abbott isn't going to win the election: he is just going to be the beneficiary of a landslide of votes against Kevin Rudd.
Posted by Candide, Wednesday, 4 September 2013 11:49:19 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Here you go, folks.

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/sep/04/tony-abbott-daughters-big-brother

This particular Messiah gets his jollies from draping himself between his daughters and saying "“If you want to know who to vote for, I'm the guy with the not bad looking daughters"

Well, I suppose if you're lacking in substance, it's as good a strategy as any.....
Posted by Poirot, Thursday, 5 September 2013 12:32:28 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Jo Couglan is right, Labor could win this election.

What nobody is thinking about, is how voting demographics have changed. Labor used to be the party of the working and disadvantaged demographic, but not anymore.

Labor has become the "Immigrants and Refugees Party", as evidenced by the fact that the Labor Party's new heartlands are in the Muslim and Asian electorates. Rudd is openly courting the Chinese vote, and every time you see him he is surrounded by Chinese. Perhaps he could run for mayor of Peking if he bombs out in the next election?

John Howard lost his seat in the blue ribbon liberal seat of Bennelong because the demographics had changed. High numbers of Asians, who want to bring the entire population of China into Australia, voted out Howard in favour of a mandarin speaker like Rudd who was obviously acceptable to China and it's people.

Labor leaders like Carr are making the right noises about perfidious Israel in the Bankstown and Auburn mosques to get the Muslim vote, and Labor probably gives 'How to vote Labor" pamphlets out at every citizenship ceremony.

The election now seems to be between the shrinking number of Australians who vote Liberal and the increasing number of foreigners who now live in Australia who vote in our elections, and vote Labor. Labor has done the maths and knows that it can breed out the Liberal Australian voters through immigration and birth rate differentials, and it knows that it will win in the end.
Posted by LEGO, Thursday, 5 September 2013 6:19:27 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
poirot,
That link is nothing short of what is expected of you. You're now reduced to childish spite.
How old are you . 14?
Posted by individual, Thursday, 5 September 2013 6:33:02 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Gosh individual - linking to a newspaper item is childish and spiteful? What is wrong with pointing out that Tony Abbott drapes himself with his daughters like Hugh Heffner with a pair of Playboy bunnies? Its downright weird.
Posted by Candide, Thursday, 5 September 2013 7:19:21 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
The reason that Poirot and Candida are having a hissy fit is that Abbott has raised 3 well balanced successful daughters who obviously adore him which punctures the propaganda put out by spin machines such as Getup. Abbott couldn't possible love his daughters and thus must be a Hefneresque pervert. Perhaps he should appear in Woman's weekly knitting with a Spoodle and lapdog Tim?

I saw KRudd kissing his grand daughter, using the same logic, he must therefore be a pedophile.

Dudd has ballsed up this campaign, and is now looking at faring worst than Juliar would. I am looking forward to the night of the long knives when Labor finally takes out the Ruddish and his supporters.
Posted by Shadow Minister, Thursday, 5 September 2013 9:55:44 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
SM,

No hissy fit.

"...... Abbott has raised 3 well balanced successful daughters who obviously adore him...."

That's all very nice....however, are you telling me that his deciding to dumb down his rhetoric for the Big Brother audience does him credit? Not only does he dumb it down, he has the temerity to use his attractive daughters as props - and sums up his brief election spiel with a plea to vote for him because he has two good looking birds hanging off his shoulder.

That they happen to be his daughters, makes it even more cringe-worthy.

You might think that is good form, but I think it's crap.

On the costings, it seems that the release of costings is not set to incude key poicies.

(So much for releasing policy costings well in advance - more BS)

"But missing from the independent costings will be the analysis on three of the Coalition's key policies: broadband, Direct Action and the plan to stop asylum seekers coming to Australia by boat.

The reason that the Coalition has not sent these policies to the independent Parliamentary Budget Office was because the PBO will not have access to the information outside of government and because the policies have "input from a range of external sources", a spokesman for Mr Hockey confirmed."

http://www.smh.com.au/federal-politics/federal-election-2013/key-coalition-policies-not-submitted-for-independent-costings-20130905-2t6dm.html#ixzz2dyLWnHbD

........

individual,

"How old are you . 14?"

Had to laugh at that, considering it's emanating from an intellectual giant such as yourself.

: )
Posted by Poirot, Thursday, 5 September 2013 10:13:53 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Shadowmonster and PullYerLego, as you gloat over the possible coming victory of the rightist 'enrich the wealthy and bleed the poor' party led by Phoney Abbott, keep in mind that you too may be caught in Tony's net when the audit is carried out.

Of course, both of you could well be supremos of capitalism and have oodles of investment properties and bulging share portfolios. Perhaps you have spent your whole lives money-grubbing said to be a worthy achievement by some. But not by me.

No, I think there are other more noble causes than money-grubbing. Murdoch and other billionaires to me is symbolic of a sick, 'law of the jungle' society. The fact that so few people share in a nation's wealth is an indictment of the whole society. Clive Palmer is grotesque and illustrates clearly why greed despoils the greedy.

On Saturday, the Forces of Evil will take over Australia and we will move closer to the Satanic Empire of the U.S.

What a hideous prospect!
Posted by David G, Thursday, 5 September 2013 10:26:22 AM
Find out more about this user Visit this user's webpage Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
P,

You may not like it, but as I said, it has more to do with its huge success with the Australian public, and your overworked partisanship.

DavidG,

Always amusing to read your rants from the far side.

I would guess that you are one of those socialist warriors that lives off welfare and is resentful that they cannot live like Palmer.
Posted by Shadow Minister, Thursday, 5 September 2013 10:40:06 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
SM, David G,

Looks like the balloon has gone up between Murdoch and Palmer....

http://m.theaustralian.com.au/news/investigations/why-we-need-to-worry-about-the-real-clive-palmer/story-fn6tcxar-1226710922127?utm_source=The%20Australian&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=editorial&net_sub_uid=6227217

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-09-05/clive-palmer-threatens-to-sue-murdoch2c-claiming-wife-is-a-spy/4936982
Posted by Poirot, Thursday, 5 September 2013 10:46:18 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Shadow Monster, no hissy fit, just intrigued. Abbott is clearly smart but he and his minders seem blind to the image he is portraying. There is nothing wrong with between being supported/accompanied by his daughters but why do they allow those creepy shots of him 'wearing' them. Holding hands with an adult daughter is just weird, he certainly wouldn't do it with a son. Like it or not, he does look like Hugh Heffner with a brace of bunnies. We can but hope the girls are allowed to get on with their lives before his first Cabinet meeting.
Posted by Candide, Thursday, 5 September 2013 10:46:34 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
P,

I am sure that RM is shaking in his boots.

Candida,

From what I saw neither of them are dressed anything like bunnies. Perhaps you have a repressed childhood and would prefer the daughters to wear burqas and walk 10 paces behind him?

Abbott has previously not involved his daughters, but now both are in their 20s and have openly expressed their desire to support their father. And each of them standing by his side with a hand on his shoulder is well within the bounds of intimacy expected of a close family.

That this is "weird" is the product of political bias or a diseased mind.
Posted by Shadow Minister, Thursday, 5 September 2013 11:21:15 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
The attacks on Abbott defy logic. He has also brought up very impressive daughters in terms of their persona. They seem intelligent and down to earth.

Give him a break and judge him on his policy record.
Posted by Chris Lewis, Thursday, 5 September 2013 11:50:12 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
To David G.

I have been around long enough to see the pattern. Liberals win, balance the budget and build up a surplus. Labor wins and squanders the surplus, running up a huge dept. Liberal win and balance the budget an return us to the black. Labor wins and puts us back into the red.

If Labor wins, David G, then you had better start learning Chinese and start bowing towards Mecca, while it is still voluntary.
Posted by LEGO, Thursday, 5 September 2013 11:53:48 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
SM,

Do you reckon that if Abbott's daughters resembled gorgons, that he'd be exploiting them the way he is?

He's overtly employing their attractiveness to attract votes - as if somehow their appeal has an impact on his ability to be PM and to lead a government.

The main point being that he isn't even doing it surreptitiously.

He's up-front that he's using his daughters' physical appeal as a reason to vote for him.

If Rudd was swanning around with his daughter highlighting her physical appeal as a vote buyer, I believe you'd be first to jump on it.

It's shallow and cretinous.

Where's his wife?

(She was missing from his Kitchen Cabinet gathering too)
Posted by Poirot, Thursday, 5 September 2013 11:55:59 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
P,

Please don't pretend to be so naive. There is a whole bunch of stuff that all pollies do that have nothing to do with their ability to govern. Both Dudd and Abbott have appeared with Annabelle Crabbe's cooking show etc etc.

That his adult daughters are good looking, smart, elegant and articulate adds to their ability to get the attention needed to "sell" their father. The same reason models look good. Their close relationship has completely torpedoed Labor's claims of misogyny, and his extensive community work has shown up Dudd's complete lack. The broader community view is that if Labor has lied about this, then why should we believe anything.

This strategy is clearly working, and all I see from the left whingers is sour grapes.
Posted by Shadow Minister, Thursday, 5 September 2013 12:56:24 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
oh the nastiness and hate (of course carefully disguised) is oozing. I wonder how well the luvvies on ABC will be able to hide themselves on Saturday night. Will Kerry O'Brien be able to call it an ABC election win again. Sit back, relax and enjoy it folk.
Posted by runner, Thursday, 5 September 2013 1:51:06 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Poirot you lot did actually remark quite a lot on appearance when Abbott was in his budgie smugglers, you still remark on this now. If Rudd had something to show off he would too, it's normal but then again you are against anything normal.
Posted by individual, Saturday, 7 September 2013 7:00:17 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
  1. Pages:
  2. 1
  3. 2
  4. 3
  5. 4
  6. 5
  7. 6
  8. All

About Us :: Search :: Discuss :: Feedback :: Legals :: Privacy