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The Forum > Article Comments > Palestine - Jordan/West Bank bi-national state under discussion > Comments

Palestine - Jordan/West Bank bi-national state under discussion : Comments

By David Singer, published 16/7/2013

Creating a bi-national State in Jordan has always been the solution most likely to succeed in resolving the conflict between Jews and Arabs.

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Haaretz reported today that there are more than 6,800 arms exporters working in Israel.

As of the end of 2012, there were “6,684 individuals dealing with security exports in 1,006 companies and 312 independent businesses. The Israeli Defence Export Controls Agency issued 1,900 marketing permits and 8,716 export permits.”

Apparently some 6,684 Israelis are making a living selling death around the world.

http://www.veteranstoday.com/2013/07/15/the-death-merchants-of-tel-aviv/
Posted by MEH, Tuesday, 16 July 2013 11:29:32 AM
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"...witnessing conflict after conflict with intolerable suffering for both Jews and Arabs," observes the Singer.

As one who has watched the plight of the Palestinians over many years, I have not seen any evidence of 'the intolerable suffering of the Jews.'

What I have noticed is the Jews beating up on the Palestinians, humiliating them, demolishing their homes and farms, building Jew-only roads, shooting their children, holding them up at checkpoints, bombing and shelling them, using phosphorous munitions on them, starving them, blockading them, using tanks, Apache helicopters, warships, and F16s against them, withholding their taxes, building apartheid walls, stopping them from getting medical help and supplies from donor countries, etc, etc.

Sure, the Palestinians went through a period where suicide bombers and home-made rockets inflicted some minor harm but little in comparison with the deaths and destruction caused by the IDF. And, of course, people under brutal occupation are entitled to attempt to fight against those occupying them using any means.

Perhaps Singer could provide some hard evidence to support his claim that the Jews suffered intolerably!
Posted by David G, Tuesday, 16 July 2013 2:20:55 PM
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I agree with David G, and add that the wrong that the racists have done which has led to all the further wrongs that he has enumerated is to invade the inhabitants' country, steal their land, slaughter and exile them in a deadly orgy of ethnic cleansing, set up an über-racist state of their own on their cleared territory, and proclaim a right to it all on the spurious grounds of being "special".

On the ground of being too high and mighty to share all their real homelands as legal equals with everyone else, they are presenting an ongoing and escalating threat to the right of the rest of us to conduct our lives free of the threat of nuclear war brought by their expansionist aggression.

It seems the best defence is to target their lobby in the rest of the world, especially in America, as an enemy of the rest of us. Apartheid South Africa was finally weeded out by existential challenge and rejection. Israel is more difficult and more urgent because of its global pretensions.
Posted by EmperorJulian, Tuesday, 16 July 2013 6:06:16 PM
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David, unfortunately has a preoccupation with Jordan somehow being the solution to 'his bigger problem'.

Any attempt at real conversation regarding the Mandate and it's Articles are lost on David because he is a bigot.

Any half-brained nit-wit would realise that the lands now proclaimed as part of the 'broader Israel' resulting from the war of 1967 are based totally on a lie, one perpetrated by the Zionists.

Israel started this war, under the sneaky guise of a psychopath named Moshe Dayan and his political minions including the US government, that has been subverted by the Zionist regime since at least the late 1920s.

Israel is an 'Ersatz' political entity built on the bones of too many people to mention.

Singer won't decry the Arab (Palestinian) woes, nor their demise. He has but one bent, the creation of a false nation, based on a false religion, based on ..... well who knows what!

He will only continue to lie and attempt to justify his racists rants based on a myth, one that is unfortunately perpetuated by the current Israeli administration and their apologists, including the AIPC and the US government, not that these people have any real standing in a free and true society as most of us see it.

Why you bother David is beyond me!
Posted by Geoff of Perth, Tuesday, 16 July 2013 10:33:21 PM
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To add an insult to your injury David, I would like to add that at the current rate of oil extraction, one based on IEA and energy experts, I would expect the US to restrain further and further from supporting a false nation in the Middle East.

I care not for the end result, I just understand the basics of physics and the reality that political will to support a tragic misunderstanding in the broader Arab world will come to an end in the next 20 years or so.

You can continue to post your racist rants on this forum as much as you like, unfortunately the rapidly growing population of Muslims will see your dreams disappear as time marches on.

If you are so confident vis your mantra, do us all a favour and move to 'greater israel', I wish you luck, you will need it.

Oh, that's right, much easier to pontificate from here isn't it!
Regards Geoff
Posted by Geoff of Perth, Tuesday, 16 July 2013 11:02:58 PM
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Yes, Geoff of Perth, the colossal oil extraction expansion in and around California spells doom for the ridiculous Israel experiment. The foreign settlers in Palestine have three alternatives:

[1] Enter honest negotiations for a single, non-racist, secular, democratic state for everyone born in or exiled from Palestine over the last century.
OR
[2] Prepare for Sharia "Law", grow beards and buy body bags for the women to wear outside the home
OR
[3] Relocate to their own countries.

Worldwide effort needs to be directed to alternative [1], modelled more or less on South Africa whose laws recognise no "special" status for any race. Forget about Jordan - that "solution" is a lost cause.

A clue to why Mr Singer maintains his propaganda drive is set out at

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2009/jan/09/israel-foreign-ministry-media
Posted by EmperorJulian, Wednesday, 17 July 2013 2:32:03 PM
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#To Geoff of Perth

I am still waiting for you to substantiate your following statement - which I have asked you to do on at least five or six occasions:

" The 'benefits' ex servicemen and women get in Israel is just so vastly different to what is on offer in other countries, especially when we start talking about land and housing."

Why won't you answer?
Posted by david singer, Wednesday, 17 July 2013 5:51:11 PM
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Such nonsense! To read an article and comments so blinded by decades of Islamist propaganda at a time in history when the true nature of Jihadist imperialism is being exposed for all to see. Throughout the Middle-East, senior Muslim Clerics are delivering sermons and appearing on TV, telling their followers that Israel must be destroyed, that Jews must be exterminated as mandated by Islam and that It would not matter where in the world Israel was located, it would still be the duty of every Muslim to hunt down the Jews "behind every rock and tree and kill them" ....to quote the Qur'an! One Imam stated that Muslims should cease opposing Israel, stating that its existence conveniently concentrates a large number of Jews in one place, where their extermination will be that much easier. How you do-gooders believe that it is possible for Israel to negotiate peace with Islam, is mind-boggling. Arab leaders use the fundamental strategy of Teqqiya, sanctioned lying in the service of Islam, when they tell Western leaders they want peace and the next day tell their people, in Arabic, that Jihad is the command of Allah and his Messenger. Wake up Mr Singer! The stealth Jihad is well underway in Europe, America and here in Australia. That's why the Arabs reject peace with Israel on any terms other than if Israel submitted to Dhimmitude status and then only as a prelude to annihilation of the Jews. Listen to their own words and stop fantasising!!
Posted by OZSHRINK, Monday, 22 July 2013 9:52:03 AM
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#To OZSHRINK

I understand your frustration and am fully aware of the genocidal and ethnic cleansing intent of hundreds of millions in the Arab world in regard to Jews.

Nevertheless the alternative to a negotiated solution is too horrible to contemplate.

You accuse me of fantasising about a binational state being formed in the West Bank and Jordan. yet that is what exactly transpired between 1950-1967 - although until 1964 there was unanimity of opinion between Jordanians and Palestinians that they were one people - not two peoples.

If that is what they think now - then they can still express their wishes within the framework of a single state- since the attempt to create separate states is doomed to failure after 20 years of failed negotiations.

Short of any better idea - a return to the territorial status quo that existed prior to 1967 taking changed circumstances on the ground since then - still remains the best option available to end a conflict that has been going on for over 130 years.
Posted by david singer, Monday, 22 July 2013 12:10:46 PM
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I would venture to say that hundreds of millions of Arabs would dearly love to never hear the word 'JEWS' ever again. Though I'm not an Arab, I support them 100% and share their wish.

The Singer is a gift that keeps giving and giving. His mischievous mind it a fountain of ideas, all of which screw the Palestinians even more than they have already been screwed by God's Children since 1947.

The Singers tells us that the conflict has been going on for 130 years but I'm sure that if we take 1947 from 2013 we don't get 130 but then maths was never my strong suit!

Is there any possibility that we could all chip in a few dollars and send Singer and Sells on a long, long holiday, perhaps to the Artic? I could see them sharing an igloo and earnestly discussing whether God really did anoint the Jews or whether God really exists.

Only problem is that the heat of the debate might melt the igloo!
Posted by David G, Monday, 22 July 2013 1:11:03 PM
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#David G

2013 minus 130 = 1883 which is roughly when the conflict between Jews and Arabs in Palestine had its genesis.

If you believe the conflict started in 1947 then you have no understanding of the conflict.

Don't worry about my mathematics. Worry about your comprehension, level of understanding and appreciation of the dynamics that have led to the conflict remaining unresolved after many efforts to end it during those 130 years.
Posted by david singer, Monday, 22 July 2013 8:59:17 PM
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Singer, the conflict is unresolved because the Israelis have deliberately and continuously procrastinated and obfuscated and thrown red herring after red herring into the mix while, all the time, they have built illegal settlements as fast as they can, thrown Palestinians out of their homes, built apartheid walls, and engaged in genocide and war crimes.

The thing that amazes me is that they have done all these things yet they, like you, believe that they have nothing to answer for, no compensation to pay to the dispossessed whose land and homes they have swollen, etc.

The Israelis have outdone Hitler in terms of brutality and genocide and they deserve world condemnation for it!

No weasel words from you will ever change that reality!
Posted by David G, Tuesday, 23 July 2013 10:35:43 AM
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P.S. That should be 'stolen' not 'swollen'.
Posted by David G, Tuesday, 23 July 2013 10:39:39 AM
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#David G

Your Jew hating rants will get you nowhere.

Are you prepared to discuss the merits of a binational state in the West Bank and Jordan - accepted by UN Special Rapporteur Richard Falk as the best option now available to settle the Jewish-Arab conflict?

Give us your thoughts from that swollen head of yours.
Posted by david singer, Wednesday, 24 July 2013 12:51:33 PM
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Singer, what you class as Jew-hating rants is merely my attempt to present to the world what the Jews have done and are doing to the Palestinians.

I list a litany of Jewish transgressions and war crimes as often as I can and, strangely, you never question them. How could you?

The U.S. is the most hated country in the world and Israel must be a close second. In both cases, it's what each country does that brings about such hatred.

Change the behavior and the hatred will stop.

It's simple really!
Posted by David G, Thursday, 25 July 2013 9:35:12 AM
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To David G

I am prepared to answer any comments on my articles - not involve myself in dealing with your hate ridden genealized and unsubstantiated claims .

When you place America and Israel as the two most hated nations on earth above places like North Korea, Iran and Afghanistan - then any sort of rational discussion with you is a waste of time.

You are not interested in ending conflict - only perpetuating it.

Your continuing failure to discuss the bi -national state in Jordan and the West Bank as a solution to ending the conflict between Jews and Arabs shows you up for the war monger you are.
Posted by david singer, Thursday, 25 July 2013 1:26:40 PM
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Singer, Paul Craig Roberts recently wrote these words in his article about 'the two faux democracies'.

His website address is http://www.paulcraigroberts.org/

You should read the whole article, enlighten yourself for a change!

"Polls from all over the world consistently show that Israel and the US are regarded as the two greatest threats to peace and to life on earth. Yet, these two utterly lawless governments prance around pretending to be the “world’s greatest democracies.” Neither government accepts any accountability whatsoever to international law, to human rights, to the Geneva Conventions, or to their own statutory law. The US and Israel are rogue governments, throwbacks to the Hitler and Stalin era.

The post World War II wars originate in Washington and Israel. No other country has imperial expansionary ambitions. The Chinese government has not seized Taiwan, which China could do at will. The Russian government has not seized former constituent parts of Russia, such as Georgia, which, provoked by Washington to launch an attack, was instantly overwhelmed by the Russian Army. Putin could have hung Washington’s Georgian puppet and reincorporated Georgia into Russia, where it resided for several centuries and where many believe it belongs.

For the past 68 years, most military aggression can be sourced to the US and Israel. Yet, these two originators of wars pretend to be the victims of aggression. It is Israel that has a nuclear arsenal that is illegal, unacknowledged, and unaccountable. It is Washington that has drafted a war plan based on nuclear first strike. The rest of the world is correct to view these two rogue unaccountable governments as direct threats to life on earth."
Posted by David G, Thursday, 25 July 2013 3:09:12 PM
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#To David G

Paul Craig Roberts whoever he is - is talking nonsense.

Which of the following wars between 1990 - 2000 originated in Washington or Israel?

1990-1991 Gulf War/Persian Gulf War Iraq and Kuwait 20,000 - 200,000 KILLED
1990-1993 Rwandan Civil War, Rwandan Genocide Rwanda ~500,000 - 1,000,000 KILLED
1991-1992 War in South Ossetia South Ossetia ~2,800 KILLED
1991-1994 Djiboutian Civil War Djibouti unknown number killed
1991-1995 Croatian War of Independence Croatia 10,668 - 13,603 KILLED
1991-2002 Sierra Leone Civil War Sierra Leone ~100,000 KILLED
1991-2002 Algerian Civil War Algeria ~150,000 - 200,000 KILLED
1992-1993 War in Abkhazia Abkhazia ~4,000 - 34,000 KILLED
1992-1995 War in Bosnia and Herzegovina 96,175 - 102,622 KILLED
1992-1997 Civil war in Tajikistan Tajikistan 50,000 - 100,000 KILLED
1993-2006 Burundi Civil War Burundi ~300,000 KILLED
1994-1994 Yemeni Civil War Yemen - unknown number killed
1994-1996 First Chechen War Chechnya, Russia ~58,500 - 108,500 KILLED
1996-2006 Nepal Civil War Nepal ~12,700 KILLED
1996-1999 Kosovo War Kosovo, Former Yugoslavia 578 - 13,627 KILLED
1996-1997 First Congo War Zaire ~200,000 KILLED
1998-2000 Ethiopia-Eritrea War Ethiopia and Eritrea 53,000 - 190,000 KILLED
1998-2003 Second Congo War Democratic Republic of the Congo 3,500,000 - 4,400,000 KILLED
1999-1999 Kargil War India and Pakistan 2,921 - 6,564 KILLED
1999-2003 Second Liberian Civil War Liberia ~150,000 KILLED
1999-2007 Ituri conflict Democratic Republic of the Congo ~60,000 KILLED
2000-2007 Second Chechen War Chechnya ( Russia) ~55,000 KILLED

Do you want any more evidence going back over 68 years to thoroughly discredit Roberts claim?

As usual you rely on the unsubstantiated claims of others to make unsubstantiated claims of your own and broadcast them far and wide. That is what is called propaganda.

Again - are you prepared to discuss a bi-national state in Jordan and the West Bank as the solution to ending the Jewish-Arab conflict?
Posted by david singer, Thursday, 25 July 2013 4:22:09 PM
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Dear Singer, please don't feel deflated but I include for your edification a few details about Paul Craig Roberts. A full list of his accomplishments can be obtained from his website.

I'm afraid that what he says trumps you completely!

"Paul Craig Roberts has had careers in scholarship and academia, journalism, public service, and business. He is chairman of The Institute for Political Economy.

Scholarship & Academia

Dr. Roberts has held academic appointments at Virginia Tech, Tulane University, University of New Mexico, Stanford University where he was Senior Research Fellow in the Hoover Institution, George Mason University where he had a joint appointment as professor of economics and professor of business administration, and Georgetown University where he held the William E. Simon Chair in Political Economy in the Center for Strategic and International Studies.

He has contributed chapters to numerous books and has published many articles in journals of scholarship, including the Journal of Political Economy, Oxford Economic Papers, Journal of Law and Economics, Studies in Banking and Finance, Journal of Monetary Economics, Public Choice, Classica et Mediaevalia, Ethics, Slavic Review, Soviet Studies, Cardoza Law Review, Rivista de Political Economica, and Zeitschrift fur Wirtschafspolitik. He has entries in the McGraw-Hill Encyclopedia of Economics and the New Palgrave Dictionary of Money and Finance.

He has contributed to Commentary, The Public Interest, The National Interest, Policy Review, National Review, The Independent Review, Harper’s, the New York Times, The Washington Post, The Los Angeles Times, Fortune, London Times, The Financial Times, TLS, The Spectator, The International Economy, Il Sole 24 Ore, Le Figaro, Liberation, and the Nihon Keizai Shimbun. He has testified before committees of Congress on 30 occasions."

PCR's website address is http://www.paulcraigroberts.org/
Posted by David G, Thursday, 25 July 2013 6:00:43 PM
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To David G

Seems as though Roberts CV does not save him from making a complete fool of himself.

I ask you again:

Which of the following wars between 1990 - 2000 originated in Washington or Israel?

1990-1991 Gulf War/Persian Gulf War Iraq and Kuwait 20,000 - 200,000 KILLED
1990-1993 Rwandan Civil War, Rwandan Genocide Rwanda ~500,000 - 1,000,000 KILLED
1991-1992 War in South Ossetia South Ossetia ~2,800 KILLED
1991-1994 Djiboutian Civil War Djibouti unknown number killed
1991-1995 Croatian War of Independence Croatia 10,668 - 13,603 KILLED
1991-2002 Sierra Leone Civil War Sierra Leone ~100,000 KILLED
1991-2002 Algerian Civil War Algeria ~150,000 - 200,000 KILLED
1992-1993 War in Abkhazia Abkhazia ~4,000 - 34,000 KILLED
1992-1995 War in Bosnia and Herzegovina 96,175 - 102,622 KILLED
1992-1997 Civil war in Tajikistan Tajikistan 50,000 - 100,000 KILLED
1993-2006 Burundi Civil War Burundi ~300,000 KILLED
1994-1994 Yemeni Civil War Yemen - unknown number killed
1994-1996 First Chechen War Chechnya, Russia ~58,500 - 108,500 KILLED
1996-2006 Nepal Civil War Nepal ~12,700 KILLED
1996-1999 Kosovo War Kosovo, Former Yugoslavia 578 - 13,627 KILLED
1996-1997 First Congo War Zaire ~200,000 KILLED
1998-2000 Ethiopia-Eritrea War Ethiopia and Eritrea 53,000 - 190,000 KILLED
1998-2003 Second Congo War Democratic Republic of the Congo 3,500,000 - 4,400,000 KILLED
1999-1999 Kargil War India and Pakistan 2,921 - 6,564 KILLED
1999-2003 Second Liberian Civil War Liberia ~150,000 KILLED
1999-2007 Ituri conflict Democratic Republic of the Congo ~60,000 KILLED
2000-2007 Second Chechen War Chechnya ( Russia) ~55,000 KILLED

I don't know what your CV is - but I hope you have sufficient intelligence to point out which of the above wars originated in Washington or Israel.

Perhaps you could ask Paul Craig Roberts to provide the answers for you - if you don't know.

Drop him a line and get him to respond on your behalf.
Posted by david singer, Friday, 26 July 2013 9:39:26 AM
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Singer, I'm not a Palestinian who can be ordered around and punished and humiliated and, if needs be, taken to an Israeli jail and tortured or worse, bombed into submission.

And I see through your infantile array of tricks which try to divert any real discussion of the sixty-plus years of war crimes and brutality by Israel.

Paul Craig Roberts has a C.V. which is truly impressive. And he has the intelligence to see who are the real villains in our world.

Israel and the U.S. head the list!
Posted by David G, Saturday, 27 July 2013 11:36:16 AM
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To David G

Still waiting to your answers to the following question:

Which of the following wars between 1990 - 2000 originated in Washington or Israel?

1990-1991 Gulf War/Persian Gulf War Iraq and Kuwait 20,000 - 200,000 KILLED
1990-1993 Rwandan Civil War, Rwandan Genocide Rwanda ~500,000 - 1,000,000 KILLED
1991-1992 War in South Ossetia South Ossetia ~2,800 KILLED
1991-1994 Djiboutian Civil War Djibouti unknown number killed
1991-1995 Croatian War of Independence Croatia 10,668 - 13,603 KILLED
1991-2002 Sierra Leone Civil War Sierra Leone ~100,000 KILLED
1991-2002 Algerian Civil War Algeria ~150,000 - 200,000 KILLED
1992-1993 War in Abkhazia Abkhazia ~4,000 - 34,000 KILLED
1992-1995 War in Bosnia and Herzegovina 96,175 - 102,622 KILLED
1992-1997 Civil war in Tajikistan Tajikistan 50,000 - 100,000 KILLED
1993-2006 Burundi Civil War Burundi ~300,000 KILLED
1994-1994 Yemeni Civil War Yemen - unknown number killed
1994-1996 First Chechen War Chechnya, Russia ~58,500 - 108,500 KILLED
1996-2006 Nepal Civil War Nepal ~12,700 KILLED
1996-1999 Kosovo War Kosovo, Former Yugoslavia 578 - 13,627 KILLED
1996-1997 First Congo War Zaire ~200,000 KILLED
1998-2000 Ethiopia-Eritrea War Ethiopia and Eritrea 53,000 - 190,000 KILLED
1998-2003 Second Congo War Democratic Republic of the Congo 3,500,000 - 4,400,000 KILLED
1999-1999 Kargil War India and Pakistan 2,921 - 6,564 KILLED
1999-2003 Second Liberian Civil War Liberia ~150,000 KILLED
1999-2007 Ituri conflict Democratic Republic of the Congo ~60,000 KILLED
2000-2007 Second Chechen War Chechnya ( Russia) ~55,000 KILLED

Squirm and wriggle as much as you like. I will not let you off the hook until you admit that Roberts has made a claim which neither he nor you can substantiate.
Posted by david singer, Saturday, 27 July 2013 2:14:27 PM
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You won't let me off the hook! What a silly little man you are, Singer.

That you would criticize Dr Roberts given his massive C.V. is laughable. Compared to him, you are a one-eyed minnow and he is an intellectual elephant.

Tell you what, why don't you write to him and tell him that you are 'the' David Singer, an Australian lawyer and Israeli-apologist, and demand that he explain himself to you?

He would probably say "...er, David who?"
Posted by David G, Saturday, 27 July 2013 5:51:51 PM
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