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The Forum > Article Comments > Criticism of Israel is not anti-semitic per se > Comments

Criticism of Israel is not anti-semitic per se : Comments

By George Browning, published 24/5/2013

Parliamentarians of both State and Federal Parliaments have been enthusiastically signing the London Declaration which condemns ant-Semitism.

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George, I support the thrust of your article but disagree that belittling of the religion of Judaism is deplorable. Would you not criticise the religion of the orthodox (male) Jew who thanks God daily that he was not born a woman?
Posted by Asclepius, Friday, 24 May 2013 9:05:17 AM
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@ Asclepius

Before coming out with, dare I say it, an antisemitic remark such as you have above, that you find out the reason behind it.

I won't bother telling you. Find out for yourself.
Posted by SF, Friday, 24 May 2013 9:43:33 AM
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one should always ask .what would Australia do if it was at war.Israel has a peace (cold )with Egypt,slightly better with Jordon.what looks like a constant low level war some times hot with the rest .this has been going on for nearly 80 years .

trying to get resolution Israel gave a lot and put itself in danger a number of times .so if security is the primary concern it is not hard to understand .

if the critics and those of alleged goodwill want to help look and learn Arabic and counter the hate education that is produced in Gaza by Hamas and their cohorts

i wish George would spend some time trying to run a church in Gaza about six month should give him an insight

ben
Posted by ben gershon, Friday, 24 May 2013 9:57:44 AM
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Christianity, Islam and Judaism are ideologies and like any ideology, are fair game for criticism.
Posted by mac, Friday, 24 May 2013 10:09:03 AM
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Nicely put - just about sums up my views.
I would go furthet and wonder about the legitimacy of
a nation state in Palestine that has been built
on mass migration from far away eastern Eiurope.
Posted by asho, Friday, 24 May 2013 10:26:06 AM
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Same old technique of racists everywhere - grab something that's not theirs to grab, then greet every challenge to the grabbing as "racism". And wheedle the racists' sponsors into echoing the howl of "victimisation".

Jews have every right to application of the same standards as apply to everyone else. That doesn't extend to any right to grab someone else's land as their (proclaimed) race's special "homeland", extend and hold the enclave by force and violence.

Nor does it extend to any right to quarantine any superstition (including "God promised us your territory") from the ridicule and hostility to which every religious or non-religious ideological claim is rightly subject under common standards in a free society.

A few decades ago "the virus of anticommunism" was a swear-phrase deployed by Soviet scammers against any rejection of Communism. Not racist but essentially the same special pleading as that of the Zionist scammers over "antisemitism".
Posted by EmperorJulian, Friday, 24 May 2013 10:37:42 AM
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Here's a question:
Why is holocaust denial against the law pretty much all over the world, and yet al-Nakba denial is not?
And another one:
Is there another historical event in recorded human history about which it is deemed against the law to ask questions?
Just asking...
Posted by halduell, Friday, 24 May 2013 12:03:15 PM
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Mr Browning, you do seem to be quite touchy about your 'mere criticism' of Israel being called antisemitic. Believe it or not, you aren't the first person to express such shock at your 'mere criticisms' being received in such a way.

What would help us all, Mr. Browning, would be if you could provide examples of instances where you were so unfairly maligned, and let us decide for ourselves whether what you claim to be true, does in fact happen to be so.

I mean, I'm sure your 'mere criticisms' of Israel have always been completely innocent, and therefore, you have nothing to hide. Right?

As for your claims that Israel "controls the volume of water Palestinians can drink," I seriously must ask - on which planet do you draw breath, sir?

I think I've actually hit upon your problem. It may have something to do with the fact that your 'mere criticisms' of Israeli policy are 100% disconnected from reality, so excuse those of us who reside in the real world for justifiably perhaps wondering if you might maybe be driven by hatred?
Posted by JayinPhiladelphia, Friday, 24 May 2013 12:05:00 PM
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Good article until the final paragraph. There is nothing wrong with criticizing or belittling any religion. They are all as ridiculous as each other, and if people choose to hold ridiculous beliefs then they will become targets of ridicule.

I do however have concerns about the London declaration and our politicians clamouring to sign it. As much as Jews have faced serious persecution at times during history, they are hardly alone in this.
Many groups have been persecuted and some continue to be today. To single out hatred of Jews suggests that it is somehow worse than hatred of blacks, Muslims, Chinese or untouchables in India, and seems to elevate Jews above the rest of humanity. It is such elevation of one race over another that leads to racism in the first place.
In addition, I don't think Jews in Australia face any real level of racism. Certainly not when compared to aboriginal Australians. I doubt there are many Jews that get knocked back for a job or a tenancy due to their Jewishness. I don't think the same could be said for aboriginals.

It also seems particularly hypocritical given the Israeli attitudes towards the indigenous people of the lands they occupy. One would think they ought get their own house in order before lecturing the rest of humanity on how to treat minority groups.
Posted by Rhys Jones, Friday, 24 May 2013 12:06:32 PM
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JayinPhiladelphia,

Let's set some parameters in regard to "anti-Semitism"--

Say a critic of Israel described the creation of the country as "a colonialist project that resulted in the dispossession and subjugation of the Palestinians"

Would that be an anti-Semitic statement? If so,why?
Posted by mac, Friday, 24 May 2013 2:28:49 PM
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It's a matter of what you do, not who you are.

The holocaust was a horrific and shameful thing but has nothing to do with me, and probably nothing to do with the majority of Israeli citizens.
I acknowledge it and agree that it should always be remembered as an example of religious intolerance and political scapegoating.

However, it's as personally significant to me now as was the Battle of Hastings.

To use the 70-year old blood of the innocent as some sort of "get-out-of-jail-free" card to justify what they do now is becoming less and less relevant in the eyes of the world and devalues the memories of those who died by converting it into some sort of moral currency.

I have no problem with Judaeism but don't agree with many of the practices of Zionism.

I can like Germans but detest Nazis but I'm yet to hear a Nazi claim that I am racist.
Posted by wobbles, Friday, 24 May 2013 3:20:44 PM
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I am appalled

"However, it's as personally significant to me now as was the Battle of Hastings"

You should be ashamed at such a remark.

The battle of Hastings was in 1066 the Holocaust happened in this life time. There are people still alive today who somehow lived through it.

"what they do now is becoming less and less relevant in the eyes of the world"

They are doing nothing. I would suggest you visit and see for yourself.
Posted by SF, Friday, 24 May 2013 3:57:11 PM
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The problem with Israel-Palestine is not that its full of
Jews, Muslims and God forbid it, Christians, per se, but its full of
religious people.

Up Secularism, for peace. Thats what we enjoy in Australia.
And I'm not prejudiced, bigoted or dwarfgoted, per se, or nuffing.

And regarding Bishop Browning's future doctorate regarding "climate change and the Church" - climate change as we know is God's will, isn't it?

Poyda
Posted by plantagenet, Friday, 24 May 2013 4:06:13 PM
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@asho

"wonder about the legitimacy of
a nation state in Palestine that has been built
on mass migration from far away eastern Europe."

E Europe is nearer to Israel than the countries most of the Arabs in the region come from.

FYI most of the people who **FLED** to Israel in 1948 onwards were not from E Europe. Conservedly 1 million were evicted from Arab lands, as opposed to around 600,000, most of whom fled from Israel at the insistence of their leaders, with the promise they would return when "the Zionist entity had been exterminated. All verifiable
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1THQ94yF1Ng
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FuGqpFxogRg

These people you object to from E Europe had closer blood ties and are genetically proven to be from the region. Most Arabs are not.
Posted by SF, Friday, 24 May 2013 4:09:49 PM
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Israel is not a nation state, it is a rogue statelet without borders or constitution that encroaches illegally on land that does not belong to them.

Why on earth Australians have to have this place shoved down our throats day in and day out as if we have to love it or else beats me.

I don't love the place, I do care that we were helped by Palestinians in 2 world wars and then shafted them by voting in an illegal, immoral and non-binding vote to steal 56% of the land and give it to people who had no right to it just because the west did not want the people involved.

WE actively kept jews out of Australia for decades to protect the white Australia policy, the Brits and US made a deal to make them stay in Europe during the war and so on.

We don't now get to make the Palestinians suffer for our immoral and repulsive treatment of jews in the hands of the Nazis because we helped the Nazis by not helping the jews.

Just as today we prop up scabby brutal dictators all over the world and persecute those who escape.
Posted by Marilyn Shepherd, Friday, 24 May 2013 4:48:54 PM
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Jews were not evicted from Arab countries, Tom Segev in his excellent book 1967 has long and detailed histories of how and why arab jews got to Israel, I suggest you read it and get back to us.
Posted by Marilyn Shepherd, Friday, 24 May 2013 4:50:54 PM
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Mac -

First, let's stop putting antisemitism in square quotes. There's a parameter for ya, buddy.

Second -

"Say a critic of Israel described the creation of the country as "a colonialist project that resulted in the dispossession and subjugation of the Palestinians"

Would that be an anti-Semitic statement? If so,why?"

Yes, that would be antisemitic. Because for starters, the phrasing of your 'question' clearly indicates that you oppose self-determination for the Jewish people, alone amongst all people in the world.

This makes you a bigot, sir, whether you'd like to admit it or not.

Also, I would note that the Jewish people are the one ethnoreligious who have the most solid, indisputable claim to the land of Israel, Palestine, etc etc.

The Arab colonists who call themselves "Palestinians" have no such similar claim, and though a handful of them very well may have lived in and on this particular plot of land for generations, they are by no means native, and therefore to claim that they are being 'dispossessed,' as a result of their ancestors attempting, and failing, to ethnically cleanse the Jews from our homeland, is, pardon me for saying so, frankly insane.

Btw, colonies need a motherland. What would the motherland be in this case of alleged 'colonialism,' genius?
Posted by JayinPhiladelphia, Friday, 24 May 2013 4:56:20 PM
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Marilyn - I'm amazed that you can even see straight enough to type, considering the vicious hatred that must be oozing out of your eyes.

The Farhud...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Farhud

...is just one of the better documented instances of the ethnic cleansing of Jews from Arab countries, which affected hundreds of thousands, and which took place within just the past couple of generations.

Just because you don't like that history, doesn't mean it didn't happen.
Posted by JayinPhiladelphia, Friday, 24 May 2013 5:03:21 PM
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Hi Marilyn

As usual you speak more sense than the God-lovin troglodytes who populate this thread.

The book by Tom Segev, to which you refer, is:

"1967: Israel, the War, and the Year that Transformed the Middle East"

which can be purchased from any reputable Capitalist bookstore.

Airmail from Great Britain or Uncle Sam, of course.

Cheers

Pete
Posted by plantagenet, Friday, 24 May 2013 5:04:29 PM
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what amazes me is how blind people are to the fulfilment of prophecy. Hard to believe that George as a bishop believes the gw fantasy and is ignorant that God oversees history. Make sure you come to the right conclusions with gw George otherwise you won't get a pass for your doctorate. One never seems to ask the obvious question as to why the Palestinian knocked back their own state years back.
Posted by runner, Friday, 24 May 2013 5:11:48 PM
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Apart from your blatant racism and antisemitism, you aren't very bright either. You have some severe issues that need to be dealt with too.

You are also pathetic beyond words. If you bothered to read reviews of Tom Segev's 'work' you will see it is all imaginary the way he perceives it. In other words it isn't factual. He is merely challenging it.

There is far too much in the written word in Arabic too that the Arabs were asked to stay. Abu Mazen confirmed his family did not have to leave but did so at the behest of the Arab leadership.

Even Norman Finkelstein, another self-hating Jew does not agree with him.

How on earth can you possibly think that Palestinians helped in World Wars? In fact quite the reverse.

In 1941, Haj Amin al-Husseini went to Germany and met with Adolf Hitler, Heinrich Himmler, Joachim Von Ribbentrop and other Nazi leaders. He wanted to persuade them to extend the Nazis’ anti-Jewish program to the Arab world. He became an ally and formed the Muslim Brotherhood.

Firstly, the name Palestine was INVENTED in Moscow, by Russians in 1964 when they created the Palestinian Liberation Organization, the "PLO". The term "Palestinian People" as a descriptive of Arabs in Palestine appeared for the first time in the preamble of the 1964 PLO Charter, drafted in Moscow.

The Arabs started calling themselves Palestinians on June 4th 1967

There has never been any Palestinian state, neither any Palestinian archaeological find nor coinage. The present-day "Palestinians" are an Arab people, with Arab culture, Arabic language and Arab history. They have their own Arab states from where they came into the Land of Israel about one century ago to contrast the Jewish immigration. That is the historical truth.
Posted by Sam C, Friday, 24 May 2013 5:41:58 PM
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Tom Segev imagined his book? REally? For heaven's sake not one Israeli ever said it was merely imagined.

Israel could not get Europeans interested in going to Palestine from 1848 onwards so they bribed and bullied arab jews.

And I have zero hate for jews, I just despise Israeli policy.
Posted by Marilyn Shepherd, Friday, 24 May 2013 5:55:05 PM
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JayinPhiladelphia,

"Also, I would note that the Jewish people are the one ethnoreligious who have the most solid, indisputable claim to the land of Israel, Palestine, etc etc."

That's ethno-relgious religious chauvinism, "my people are special" and the natives should just disappear. The history of humanity is a record of migrations and invasions, what is so remarkable about the Zionist claim to Palestine. The "solid, indisputable" claim is a fantasy conceived by Zionist anti-Arab bigots.

"Btw, colonies need a motherland. What would the motherland be in this case of alleged 'colonialism,' genius?"

The various countries which supplied Jewish "settlers" -- obviously.

"a handful of them very well may have lived in and on this particular plot of land for generations, they are by no means native, "

How, do you know that as a fact? Remember, the bigotry of religious chauvinism doesn't provide facts. There's often remarkable genetic continuity of populations over millennia, even if the Arabs all arrived in the 7th century the Zionist claim is still ethically bankrupt.

Your comments are as expected, first ad hominem attacks, then explicit racism and relgious chauvinism, however, nowhere was there an ehical defence of Zionism
Posted by mac, Friday, 24 May 2013 6:02:44 PM
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My last comment was directed at Marilyn.

Marilyn you are delusional. We never actively or otherwise, kept Jews out of Australia ever, never mind your fantasy of decades.

Jews were on the First Fleet and indeed were the first to do many things in this country.

The Hobart Synagogue was built in 1845.

Esther Abrahams came to Australia as a convict on the First Fleet. She later married George Johnston, who was briefly governor of the colony. If you’ve heard of Johnston St in Annandale. That was their estate.

The first Jewish wedding in Australia was in 1832

The first Australian born Governor General Sir Isaac Isaacs was Jewish.

The list is far too long to go into.

The most famous Jew was the best General this country has ever had Sir John Monash

In fact Australia is the ONLY COUNTRY IN THE WORLD, other than Israel, to have Jews as its Founding Members.

Learn your own history before mouthing off and making yourself look more ignorant than you already do. I know where I am coming from I have recently been involved in research with USYD on this issue.

As for your assertion that the British and Americans made a deal to keep Jews in Europe during the WW2. That is truly pathetic. They were locked in ghettos and Concentration camps. The Allies and that included Australia were trying to free them.

Your Arab friends could have had a country of their own at any time since 1948, they don’t want it. The last time was 2008 when Olmert meet with Abu Mazan 35 times in an 18 month period and offered more than they were offered in 1948 and he knocked it back too.
http://www.timesofisrael.com/hand-drawn-map-shows-what-olmert-offered-for-peace/
Posted by Sam C, Friday, 24 May 2013 6:14:48 PM
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Mac -

The 'chauvinism;' here is all yours, when you ludicrously claimed something so ridiculous that I can't even recall...

Oh wait, let me look it up. Oh, here it is.

You said -

""Say a critic of Israel described the creation of the country as "a colonialist project that resulted in the dispossession and subjugation of the Palestinians""

Your ridiculous claim of 'colonialism' aside, you are the one engaging in chauvinism here.

The only difference between you and me is that I have facts on my side. I'd like to think that matters.

in response to clarification as to who the 'motherland' is in your claim that Israel is a colony, you say -

"The various countries which supplied Jewish "settlers" -- obviously."

This actually proves my point that you have not one clue as to the real situation on the ground, and you only bandy about the 'colonial' charge out of complete ignorance of what such a word means.

Or are you claiming that Israel is a 'colony' of Egypt? Or Iraq? Or Yemen? Or Iran? Or Libya? Or Syria? Or Bahrain? Or Azerbaijan? Or Morocco?

Let's face it. You don't have one clue as to where Jews actually come from, nor do you have any idea what words like 'colonialism' mean, aside from that you clearly think they're pretty cool buzz words to use...

Your comments so far draw an eye roll from me, sir, and nothing else.

Your pathetic flailings elsewhere draw even less. I understand you may be mad at me for pointing out your racism and Judeophobia, but in the end that is ultimately nobody's fault but your own.
Posted by JayinPhiladelphia, Friday, 24 May 2013 6:23:58 PM
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In 1938 at the Evian Conference in France Australia stated " as we don't have a racial problem, we are not desirous of importing one"".

I am not delusional, I read a lot of history written by people with open minds and not closed traps.
Posted by Marilyn Shepherd, Friday, 24 May 2013 6:25:01 PM
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"The most famous Jew was the best General this country has ever had Sir John Monash"

Just getting up from the floor after laughing so much I fell off my chair!

You have got to be kidding me, Monash was one of the most useless military leaders this country has ever seen. Just like his English peers, he was trained and used military tactics that cost thousands of un-needed and un-necessary deaths (he may of well have gone back to the days of the thin red line the way he wasted his own men's lives).

I am sure Peter Cosgrove would counter your view too, but then again, he is a true leader and probably would not bother to get into this silly little fight.
Posted by Geoff of Perth, Friday, 24 May 2013 6:48:10 PM
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May well you may be rolling in the aisle like the proverbial Jaffa in thinking that Monash was one of the most useless military leaders this country has ever seen, I would highly recommend you speak with the ANU, as they have a completely different version of history to you. I have just finished reading a précised version of his life story.

"As a general, Monash had the first essential qualities, the capacity to bear great strain and to make quick and clear decisions. His sheer intellect, breadth of grasp, his articulateness especially, together with his forceful personality, induced respect and confidence among his juniors. He worked closely with his staff, extracting the best from them: the partnership with his devoted admirer at corps, Brigadier General (Field Marshal Sir Thomas) Blamey was famous. He developed the practice of conferences of senior officers, not merely to cover a mass of detail, but to facilitate knowledge of what was expected right down the line. He held the view that warfare was essentially a problem in engineering, of mobilizing resources, like the conduct of a large industrial undertaking; in 1918 the men in the line knew that all was right behind them"

To Marilyn Shepherd. You are delusional. Check Wikipedia for the History of Jews in this country. As for a comment of yours a couple of pages back. FYI I have a screen shot of that
Posted by Sam C, Friday, 24 May 2013 8:16:13 PM
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Jews are special. Nobody but Jews have the right to turn someone else's land into a homeland for themselves and only for themselves. This right is spelled out and guaranteed in the Bible by God. Until there was an Israel, Jews in every other country were deprived of a homeland. England is no homeland if you are a Jew. Neither is Australia. Neither is America. Or France, or any other country in the world except the one designated a homeland for Jews. Australia is my homeland but it is not a Jew's homeland. My great-great grandfather's homeland was Britain. His Jewish colleagues, friends and neighbours didn't have a homeland.

OK, does this qualify to the racist writers on this list as not being antisemitic?

But of course “Jews are special” is extremely racist hogwash. It is the sort of arrogant drivel peddled by the Zionists - the "special breed". Claiming a racial land promise from God is blasphemous. Britain and Australia and France and America and every other civilised country is homeland for its inhabitants whether Jewish or not. Jews are not special. Neither is any other race. Jews are not entitled to a state designated as a Jewish state. Neither is any other race entitled to a state designated as being for their own genetic stock. This notwithstanding the bullying "how dare you!" coming from the language police pretending to sniff out hidden "antisemitism" in goys who reject their special-status pretensions and "self-hating" in Jews like Finkelstein and Pappe and Sand who rumble them.

The central tenet of the of the Zionist language police like SF and Sam C and the guy in Philadelphia is that rejecting the idea that Jews are a "special race" is "antisemitism" which is embodied in rejecting the idea that there is such a thing as a "special race"
Posted by EmperorJulian, Friday, 24 May 2013 8:39:25 PM
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'In response to JayinPhiladelphia:

'Say a critic of Israel described the creation of the country as "a colonialist project that resulted in the dispossession and subjugation of the Palestinians"

'Would that be an anti-Semitic statement? If so,why?"

'Yes, that would be antisemitic. Because for starters, the phrasing of your 'question' clearly indicates that you oppose self-determination for the Jewish people, alone amongst all people in the world.

'This makes you a bigot, sir, whether you'd like to admit it or not.'

Wrong. It is not bigoted to criticise Zionism. Zionism is discriminatory. It favours one particular ethno-religious group over everybody else. To have a nation established to favour one particular ethno-religious group over everybody else is discriminatory. Israel systematically discriminates against its non-Jewish citizens. Contrast Israel with Kazakhstan. I did an assignment about human rights in Kazakhstan at university. Kazakhstan, like other former Soviet republics, is named after the major ethnic group in the area - Kazakhstan for Kazakhs, Armenia for Armenians, Georgia for Georgians, Uzbekistan for Uzbeks, etc. But Kazakhstan is NOT a nation for Kazakhs. It is a nation for Kazakhstanis. Kazakhstan's citizenry includes Kazakhs, Uzbeks, Russians and Uighurs. They are all Kazakhstanis. Just like Australia is a nation for all people who are citizens of Australia.

'Also, I would note that the Jewish people are the one ethnoreligious who have the most solid, indisputable claim to the land of Israel, Palestine, etc etc.

'The Arab colonists who call themselves "Palestinians" have no such similar claim, and though a handful of them very well may have lived in and on this particular plot of land for generations, they are by no means native, and therefore to claim that they are being 'dispossessed,' as a result of their ancestors attempting, and failing, to ethnically cleanse the Jews from our homeland, is, pardon me for saying so, frankly insane.'

Genetic studies show Palestinians are descendants of the original Canaanites, who were there first.

'Btw, colonies need a motherland. What would the motherland be in this case of alleged 'colonialism,' genius?'

Israel was created by the Zionist colonial project.
Posted by fungus, Friday, 24 May 2013 9:01:07 PM
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SF,

Your response proves my point.

It's the eternal trump card trotted out to excuse everything from selling arms to South American dictators, invading territories, assassinations, oppressing populations and constantly defying UN decisions.

They certainly don't "do nothing".

Although I wasn't even born then and played no part in what happened I have stated that I find it horrific, but it's not an excuse to be used by others.

I know some holocaust survivors are still alive but does that mean in 20 years, all bets are off?

Otherwise, do the Muslims have a valid reason to avenge the Crusades?
Posted by wobbles, Friday, 24 May 2013 9:03:01 PM
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In response to Sam C:

'There has never been any Palestinian state, neither any Palestinian archaeological find nor coinage. The present-day "Palestinians" are an Arab people, with Arab culture, Arabic language and Arab history. They have their own Arab states from where they came into the Land of Israel about one century ago to contrast the Jewish immigration. That is the historical truth.'

No it isn't. See my above post. The Palestinians have been there for millennia.
Posted by fungus, Friday, 24 May 2013 9:07:00 PM
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Also in response to Sam C:

'There is far too much in the written word in Arabic too that the Arabs were asked to stay. Abu Mazen confirmed his family did not have to leave but did so at the behest of the Arab leadership. '

Really? So how do you explain all those massacres and rapes committed by Zionist terror groups in 1947/1948? How do you explain the Absentee Property Law? How do you explain successive Israeli governemnts denying Palestinian refugees the right to return?
Posted by fungus, Friday, 24 May 2013 9:12:39 PM
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Criticising Israel may not be antisemitic, but when other nations escape criticism for acts that are truly criminal, then the critics are Jew haters.
Judaism can be criticised, but when other religions are merely mocked, while criticism of Jews leads to attacks, then criticising the faith of Jews is antisemitism. This criticism needs to be juxtaposed to the privileged status and protection given to Islam despite Taliban massacres, al Qaeda depradations and the recent butchery in London.
The "Palestinians" are a KGB construct. They are no different to their neignbours. And among themselves they admit to that. The Palestinians I met in my DP camp in Germany after WW2 were members of the Haganah trying to help survivors of the Holocaust.
Land theft is of course unacceptable. But every war Israel faught and won was defensive. Demanding that Israel return to the 1948 ceasefire line only invites more attacks; aggressors must pay. Further, every time Israel conceded anything, it led to more demands.
There never was a Palestine, so the assertion that Israel occupies Palwstinian land is a lie. Moreover, UNSC 242 demands that borders must be negotiated and as Wikileaks and recently revealed documents from Olmert reveal, the most generous offers for a statehood were rejected by the so-called Palestinians. The truth is that those Arabs do not want a state, all they want is to deny the Jewish people self-determination.
The claim that Israel killed and raped is just recent propaganda. In fact a far left wing girl got an MA a botu 4 years ago on the topic that the non-rape by Jews was a sign of racism.
And lastly, Israel is not stealing water or anything. It is the PA which encourages water theft and tolerates other crimes.
Posted by paul2, Saturday, 25 May 2013 12:53:56 AM
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paul2

"There never was a Palestine, so the assertion that Israel occupies Palwstinian land is a lie"

What nonsense, what does it matter if Palestine ever existed prior to the Zionist invasion?
The people living in what is now "Israel" existed they had families, hopes for the future, land and most of that was annihilated by the Zionists, whatever they called themselves--"Palestinians" or "Arabs" is irrelevant. Aren't they human beings?

"the truth is that those Arabs do not want a state, all they want is to deny the Jewish people self-determination."

The " truth" whose truth? More racial stereotyping. Since Jewish "self determination" really means dispossession and "ethnic cleansing" of the Palestinians it's not surprising that they resist.


"..every war Israel faught and won was defensive."--- yeah sure, Israel will conquer the ME in "self defence."

Your arguments are poorly constructed and transparently racist, but of course, Zionism is a racist ideology, who can defend the indefensible?
Posted by mac, Saturday, 25 May 2013 10:32:49 AM
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In response to Paul2:

'The claim that Israel killed and raped is just recent propaganda.'

Zionist terrorist groups DID commit massacres, assassinations and rapes in the 1930s and 1940s. Many have been uncovered by Israeli historians.

I am also disgusted that numerous commenters in this thread are continually denying the Palestinians' existence. Regardless of what the Palestinians may have called themselves, they were a well-established population with villages, farms, schools, towns, and businesses. And under the British Mandate, "Palestinian" was a full-fledged nationality with a national flag, currency and passports. If the best you can do is just deny the Palestinians existed, then you have instantly lost the argument.
Posted by fungus, Saturday, 25 May 2013 2:01:07 PM
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Fungus you are speaking about over 80 years ago. No doubt,and it’s a matter of record , crimes were committed, far more by Arabs than Jews and still are. The Jews didn't kill without justification. The Arabs committed more and far more horrific crimes. Please don’t argue here, my family was in Palestine from 1920. I’ve heard accounts from my grandmother, my father and his siblings, all 7 of them. The family in Israel is still friends with relatives of Arabs they grew up with and they tell the same stories. They also have their version of what happened at Partition
http://www.zionism-israel.com/Hebron_Massacre1929.htm
http://www.zionism-israel.com/Gush_Etzion_Massacre.htm
http://www.zionism-israel.com/his/Hadassah_convoy_Massacre.htm
……and more.

The most recent massacre, 2 years ago, was the Fogel Family in Itamar, who were butchered , stabbed to death whilst sleeping. The Parents and three children aged 11, 4 and a three-month-old Hadas baby. Fortunately the other three children were spending the night with friends.

An uncle , my father never knew, was killed in one such massacre in Tel Aviv in 1922, he was 19.

It is still going on today, just look at what is going on in the ME right now. The streets of West Sydney are ready to explode with this sectarian violence, as is evidenced by a documentary a week ago. It was rapidly pulled, as was a YouTube video. Fortunately it was picked up overseas and was reposted with French title.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qtt0ZbCUFEM&feature=player_embedded#!

I will most likely have to wait for my 24hr to be up before I can post more.
Posted by SF, Saturday, 25 May 2013 7:22:04 PM
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SF, yes I know Arabs also committed serious crimes against Jews. But my point was to counter the claim that the Zionists wanted the Palestinian Arabs to stay. If they wanted them to stay, then how does one explain the massacres and rapes?

"The Jews didn't kill without justification."

That is a truly reprehensible comment.

And the Israeli military has been implicated in numerous war crimes since that time. I'm not denying that there have been numerous Palestinian war crimes, but there have also been Israeli ones. Therefore, the bloodletting is not one-sided.
Posted by fungus, Saturday, 25 May 2013 9:29:11 PM
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@ Fungus

PLO executive committee member, Zahir Muhsein said 31/March, 1977 with Dutch newspaper, Trouw.
" Palestinian people do not exist. The creation of a Palestinian state is only a means for continuing our struggle against the State of Israel for our Arab unity. In reality today there is no difference between Jordanians, Palestinians, Syrians and Lebanese. Only for political and tactical reasons do we speak today about the existence of a Palestinian people, since Arab national interests demand that we posit the existence of a distinct ‘Palestinian people' to oppose Zionism.

There have never been Palestinians, neither has there ever been Palestine. It always was a region, named in the first century CE by the Romans, to rid the area of its Jewish Connections. The area was Canaan, Judea and Samaria.

"Palestinian People" were created by the Soviets in 1964 when they created the "PLO". It appeared for the first time in the preamble of the 1964 PLO Charter, drafted in Moscow.

‘Palestinian’ was first used June 4th 1967. Prior to 1967, no one referred to Arabs as "Palestinians". The Middle East conflict was known as the Arab-Israeli Conflict .

All documentation, UN Resolutions etc., is stated as being between Israel and Arabs, not Palestinians.
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/Articles/Article.aspx/747#.UaB05Jz4Ict
http://www.israelifrontline.com/2010/11/when-arabs-became-palestinians.html

** Hamas Minister of Interior and National Security said Palestinians came from Egypt, Yemen, and Saudi Arabia. (Précised)
He said all Palestinians have Arab roots, blood ties in various countries on the Arabian Peninsula and Egypt. Hammad said that half of his family was Egyptian and over thirty large families are Al-Matzri, from Egypt. Half of Gazans came from Egypt; the other half from Saudi Arabia and Yemen. He repeated: “Who are Palestinians? We have many families named Al-Matzri, whose roots are Egyptian. They came from Alexandria, Cairo, Dumietta, the North, from Aswan and Upper Egypt. We are Egyptians. We are Arabs. We are Muslims. We are a part of you”.
This is in contrast to the conception that Palestinian Arabs have lived within Israel’s borders from “time immemorial”.**

The link to view Hammad’s comments on MEMRI TV:
http://www.memritv.org/clip/en/0/0/0/0/0/0/3389.htm
Posted by SF, Sunday, 26 May 2013 5:27:16 PM
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SF, I said before that regardless of how Palestinians may have identified themselves in the past, the truth is that they already had a thriving society in Palestine by the time of the Zionist movement's creation. They are indigenous to the area - as the genetic studies linking them to the ancient Canaanites proves. Whether or not Palestinian identity is a new thing, the Palestinian people are not. They have been there for many centuries. So your post's point is moot. Like I said, if the best you can come up with is to deny the Palestinians' existence, then you have lost the argument.
Posted by fungus, Sunday, 26 May 2013 7:19:51 PM
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'The Arabic word "Filastin" ["Palestine"] has been used to refer to the region since the time of the earliest medieval Arab geographers. It appears to have been used as an Arabic adjectival noun in the region since as early as the 7th century CE.[45] The Arabic language newspaper Filasteen (est. 1911), published in Jaffa by Issa and Yusef al-Issa, addressed its readers as "Palestinians".[46]'

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_people#cite_note-Kishp200-45
Posted by fungus, Sunday, 26 May 2013 7:36:21 PM
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Here you go your whole argument is out of the window.

""From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The neutrality of this article is disputed. Relevant discussion may be found on the talk page. Please do not remove this message until the dispute is resolved. (April 2013) ""
I am not surprised having a quick glance through it. I noticed a photo of Arafat labelled as a so-called Palestinian. He was from Egypt. It lists Queen Rania of Jordan, she is from Kuwait. Rashid Ismail Khalidi born in New York. Nathalie Handal is English

Everything I check out on that link according to Wikipedia has major issues. I wouldn't use Wikipedia as a source of information. It's not reliable. I can tell you that I am an editor.

The people from "Filastin" were a sea faring nation from somewhere in the Mediterranean or some other sea, but they were not Arabs

Book written in 1695
http://www.think-israel.org/goldreich.palestina.html

From another source "There was always a strong Jewish presence in the land – particularly in and around Jerusalem. In 1854, according to a report in the New York Tribune, Jews constituted two-thirds of the population of that holy city. The source for that statistic? A journalist on assignment in the Middle East that year for the Tribune. His name was Karl Marx.

A travel guide to Palestine and Syria, published in 1906 by Karl Baedeker, illustrates the fact that, even when the Islamic Ottoman Empire ruled the region, the Muslim population in Jerusalem was minimal. The book estimates the total population of the city at 60,000, of whom 7,000 were Muslims, 13,000 were Christians and 40,000 were Jews."
There have been some Arabs in the region going back a thousand or so years, but very few. The land couldn’t sustain them. They started to arrive when the land blossomed under the hands of the Jews.

There is little evidence anywhere in the region that the Arabs had much influence. If there was, there would be archaeological evidence such as there in Spain, to back it up.
Posted by SF, Sunday, 26 May 2013 9:11:04 PM
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>>I wouldn't use Wikipedia as a source of information. It's not reliable. I can tell you that I am an editor.<<

Ummm... isn't it your job, as an editor, to make it a reliable source of information? Or do you just not care? I like to rely on wikpedia as a source of accurate, up-to-date information about the world and d!ckheads like you treating it as their own personal political football ground doesn't make it any easier. Knowledge is such a beautiful thing that it should be shared freely by everyone, not made into some sort of cheap and childish contest over who's political doctrine is best.

Thank god I only rely on wikipedia for accurate technical info - an area in which it is quite good - and not for the *informed* political comment, an area which is clearly edited by cowboys, retards and half-wits.

Cheers,

Tony
Posted by Tony Lavis, Sunday, 26 May 2013 9:36:59 PM
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This might interest you

Please spare me on you so-called information of the genetic make up of the region. I was heavily involved in research prior to retirement.

Arabs are NOT indigenous to the region. They originate in Arabia, now Saudi Arabia as do the Bedouin. Arabs-Arabia. Jew-Judaea

Everything else is too technical to elaborate on. Jews have a large number of genetic diseases, in fact we have more than any other race, which isn't so great let me tell you.
There are nearly 4,000 genetic diseases known that afflict the world’s population. However, in almost every ethnic, racial, or demographic group, certain genetic diseases occur at higher frequencies among their members than in the general population.
Most diseases are severely incapacitating and some are tragically debilitating, leading to death in infancy or early childhood. Tay-Sachs may be the most recognised.

It's not only genes that are involved, it's the various types of DNA in conjunction with Y-chromosomes. Then there are haplotypes. It's not easy. It's even possible to show Tribes in a couple of instances.
Posted by SF, Sunday, 26 May 2013 10:02:32 PM
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SF,

Eh?

So all "Arabs" originate in Arabia, that statement implies that all the Arabs around the Mediterranean migrated from the Arabian Peninsula in the 7-8th century and replaced the existing population. Many of the populations in the ME and North Africa were "Arabised" by a small ethnic Moslem Arab ruling caste. Your Zionist racist argument is as morally repugnant as other versions on they racial purity theme.
Posted by mac, Sunday, 26 May 2013 10:37:06 PM
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>>Everything else is too technical to elaborate on.<<

Try us. You'd be surprised at what a wealth of technical info we understand.

>>Jews have a large number of genetic diseases, in fact we have more than any other race, which isn't so great let me tell you.<<

Which suggests a high degree of inbreeding. Not necessarily a bad thing if you have a broad enough population but still not something to be encouraged: inbreeding increases the likelihood of unfavourable mutations being passed along. My understanding is that ethnic (rather than religious) Judaism is carried through the female line: by marrying off their women to heathens the Jews stand to vastly increase their population as well as reducing the incidence of debilitating genetic disease. But they don't. What's up with that?

Cheers,

Tony
Posted by Tony Lavis, Sunday, 26 May 2013 10:57:40 PM
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On the Palestinians' Canaanite ancestry:

http://www.stml.net/text/Populations.pdf

Also, your statistics about the population of Jerusalem do not mean that there were few Arabs in Palestine compared to Jews. It just means that there were more Jews in Jerusalem than non-Jews.

At the time of the beginning of the Zionist movement, the vast majority of the population of Palestine were Palestinian Arabs.

Regarding the Wikipedia entry I posted, I included the footnotes so that people in this forum could check the claims in that particular passage.

And people such as Queen Rania, Yassir Arafat, etc. - they are included because they have Palestinian heritage.
Posted by fungus, Sunday, 26 May 2013 11:11:40 PM
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By the way, SF, I do not think you should be having a go at me for providing a link to a supposedly biased resource, when all the links you have provided so far are to Zionist websites.
Posted by fungus, Sunday, 26 May 2013 11:14:43 PM
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=pMERSh8jFFE#!

Well worth watching.
Posted by Sam C, Monday, 27 May 2013 9:12:34 AM
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My last post was worth watching. This is worth reading from Gulf News written by a Saudi

http://www.arabnews.com/arab-spring-and-israeli-enemy
Posted by Sam C, Monday, 27 May 2013 9:16:27 AM
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The Israelis go on the defensive when the Arabs refuse to acknowledge the legitimacy of their State yet they themselves refuse to acknowledge the existence of the Palestinians as a legitimate population with a historic geographic presence.

Palestinians, whose ancestors may have lived in the region for generations cannot "go home" because of the seizure of their land, yet anybody anywhere in the world who can demonstrate their mother is Jewish is able to call Israel "home" and settle there with impugnity.

Israelis claim to be the victims of terror campaigns yet invented the use of car bomb as a modern political weapon to attain Statehood.

Israelis live in fear of the possibility of Iran (their one-time ally and military partner) developing nuclear weapons but refuse to comply with international law to reveal even the existence of their own secret stockpile.

They claim sovereign national borders but are willing to break international passport conventions when assassinating political targets in foreign countries.

As well as abusng international passport rules, Mossad agents have even been caught posing as fake Al-Quaeda terrorist cells in other countries.

Always the innocent victim - never the aggressor, but there are limits to international patience and tolerance.

Priceless.
Posted by rache, Monday, 27 May 2013 1:50:00 PM
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There is significant misunderstanding of the Jewish Islamic confrontation.

Since 642AD the Islamists have been pressing the Jews to either go or
be killed as the Islamists invaded the Jewish and Christian areas of the middle east.

When the Jews returned after Hitler failed to do the job for them the
Islamists had to start again to either kill or expel them.

I think the Jews have had enough and will now stand and fight.
Posted by Bazz, Tuesday, 28 May 2013 11:31:11 AM
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Well said Bazz.

Let us also bear in mind here, which most people do not know and that is the Muslim Brotherhood was founded on the Nazi Party when Amin Al-Husseini, the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem met with Hitler in Germany

http://www.tellthechildrenthetruth.com/amin_en.html
Posted by Sam C, Tuesday, 28 May 2013 2:56:54 PM
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sam c and Bazz

its refreshing to see more people starting to know a few facts despite decades of deceit and propaganda from our national broadcasters.
Posted by runner, Tuesday, 28 May 2013 3:00:00 PM
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Well if you're going to bring up Amin-Al-Husseini's support for Hitler, we might as well also bring up the the support for Hitler and Mussolini provided by a number of Zionist individuals and organisations. The Jewish American historian Lenni Brenner has written about this in his books "Zionism In The Age Of The Dictators" and "51 Documents: Zionist Collaboration With The Nazis". A particularly egregious example is the Zionist terrorist group the Stern Gang offering to ally itself with the Third Reich in World War Two. A high-ranking member of the Stern Gang was Yitzak Shamir, who went on to be Israeli Prime Minister.
Posted by fungus, Tuesday, 28 May 2013 3:36:45 PM
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fungus,

The hidden agenda behind the so-called "anti-Semitism declaration".

http://www.newmatilda.com/2013/05/28/not-how-you-fight-anti-semitism
Posted by mac, Tuesday, 28 May 2013 7:37:44 PM
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New Matilda, David Shoebridge and John Kaye all in one place!!
That friends is one hate filled anti-Semitic trio.
Not even worth reading.

It's is quite astounding how people of like mind get drawn to such trash.

Likewise quoting Lenni Brenner who is an American Marxist and follower of Trotsky. This is scraping the bottom of the barrel.

As to the Stern gang that was a life time ago, that was people fighting for the return of their land, as they saw fit. The Muslim Brotherhood with its hatred to the West and things not Muslim grows stronger daily and is of on growing concern.

The movement is also known for engaging in political violence. They were responsible for creating Hamas. They believe in the subjugation of women, sharia law and forming the entire world into a caliphate
Posted by Sam C, Tuesday, 28 May 2013 9:17:59 PM
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In response to Sam C:

'New Matilda, David Shoebridge and John Kaye all in one place!!
That friends is one hate filled anti-Semitic trio.
Not even worth reading.'

In what way are they anti-Semitic?

'Likewise quoting Lenni Brenner who is an American Marxist and follower of Trotsky. This is scraping the bottom of the barrel.'

No it isn't. The documents he uncovered speak for themselves.

'As to the Stern gang that was a life time ago, that was people fighting for the return of their land, as they saw fit.'

Well Amin Al-Husseini's meeting with Hitler was a lifetime ago too, but you brought it up. So why have a go at me for bringing up the Stern Gang's alliance offer to the Nazis? Also, rather than being 'people fighting for the return of their land', the Stern Gang was a terrorist organisation fighting to take Palestinian land.

Also, the Muslim Brotherhood started in Egypt in the 1920s.
Posted by fungus, Wednesday, 29 May 2013 10:39:32 AM
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errr Fungus, "fighting to take Palestinian land."

No it wasn't. It was Jewish land long before it was Arab land.
The Arabs & the Romans drove them out and they want it back.
Then when Israel was established the Arabs drove the Jews out of Nth Africa and some other places in the Middle East.
So where should they go now ?

BTW I have no truck with the Stern Gang they seemed to have been a very
fanatical gang.
Posted by Bazz, Wednesday, 29 May 2013 3:38:01 PM
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Bazz, are you actually saying that the Palestinians had no claim to the land of Palestine? That they didn't own any of it?

I have already pointed out in previous posts that the Palestinians are descended from the Canaanites, who were there first.

In answer to your question of 'where should they (the Jews) go now?', I say that the Jews, like everybody else, should be able to live wherever they want to in the world. What I have a problem with is the idea of a nation being established to favour one specific ethno-religious group.
Posted by fungus, Wednesday, 29 May 2013 3:49:11 PM
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Bazz,

Read the previous comments where, for the umpteenth time, it's been explained that Zionism is a racist fantasy--perhaps your questions are really a wind-up and shouldn't be taken seriously.
Posted by mac, Wednesday, 29 May 2013 4:02:28 PM
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I don't get what you don't understand that "There are no such people as Palestinians" They say it themselves for heaven's sake
Nor were there any people called Canaanites

**Are Modern Palestinians Descended from the Canaanites?
No, of course not. It is not politically correct to make a point of this, of course, but I actually have people asking me about this as an honest question, so I making this post.

The ancient Canaanites were neither Arabs nor did they call themselves "Palestinians." Further, over the course of time, like many ancient peoples, they have vanished from history. In no sense are the Canaanites the ancestors of the current Arab population in Palestine, which arrived there in the course of the current era.**

http://rcg.org/articles/patp.html

Hamas Minister of the Interior and of National Security "Fathi Hammad" Says:
"Half of the Palestinians Are Egyptians decent and the Other Half Are Saudis"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j3-GBsGmE54

"Allah be praised, we all have Arab roots, and every "Palestinian", in Gaza and throughout Palestine, can prove his Arab roots - whether from Saudi Arabia, from Yemen, or anywhere. we all can prove our origin. So where is your affection and mercy?
[...]
Personally, half my family is Egyptian. We are all like that. More than 30 families in the Gaza Strip are called Al-Masri ["Egyptian"]. Brothers !, half of the Palestinians are Egyptians and the other half are Saudis ! ! !.
Who are the ""Palestinians"" ?? We have many families called Al-Masri, whose roots are Egyptian. Egyptian! They may be from Alexandria, from Cairo, from Dumietta, from the North, from Aswan, from Upper Egypt. We are Egyptians !. We are Arabs !. We are Muslims !. We are a part of you.
Posted by SF, Wednesday, 29 May 2013 7:14:30 PM
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In response to SF:

'I don't get what you don't understand that "There are no such people as Palestinians" They say it themselves for heaven's sake
Nor were there any people called Canaanites'

Yes there are such people as Palestinians. The Palestinians do not claim to not exist. You have cited a couple of examples of Palestinians who question the Palestinian national identity, but here are countless Palestinians who would disagree with them. And the Palestinians are descended from the Canaanites, as the link I provided earlier shows.

It is ridiculous to deny the Palestinians' existence. To do so is to assert that all those Palestinian villages, towns, businesses, churches, mosques, synagogues, farms, and schools never existed.
Posted by fungus, Thursday, 30 May 2013 12:10:47 PM
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinians

'The Palestinian people, also referred to as Palestinians, are the modern descendants of the peoples who have lived in Palestine over the centuries, and who today are largely culturally and linguistically Arab due to Arabization of the region.[17][18][19][20][21][22][23][24]'

Scroll down to where the cited footnotes are and you will be provided with more information showing that the Palestinians are indigenous to the historic region of Palestine.
Posted by fungus, Thursday, 30 May 2013 1:20:29 PM
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Tell that to the UN. If what you believe to be fact is true, that makes every UN Resolution and addendum to those Resolutions null and void.

How Soviet Russia created the "peace process" and incited the Muslim world against the US.

**The "peace process" is a charade. The revelations of the highest ranking Soviet bloc defector, Major General Ion Mihai Pacepa, show that the peace process is, and has from the outset, been nothing but a charade.

It all started with the creation of a fictitious "Palestinian People" who allegedly demand political self determination. This collective noun was created by the Soviet disinformation masters in 1964 when they created the Palestinian Liberation Organization, the "PLO". The term "Palestinian People" as a descriptive of Arabs in Palestine appeared for the first time in the preamble of the 1964 PLO Charter, drafted in Moscow. The Charter was affirmed by the first 422 members of the Palestinian National Council, handpicked by the KGB.

http://www.imninalu.net/myths-pals.htm
Posted by SF, Thursday, 30 May 2013 3:21:00 PM
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How does believing in the Palestinians' existence negate UN resolutions?

As I have already written, regardless of how the Palestinian may have identified themselves in the past, the truth is that they already had a thriving society at the time of the beginning of the Zionist movement. So your supposed point is null and void.

Your whole argument seems to be, "It doesn't matter how Israel treats the Palestinians, and it doesn't matter what situation the Palestinians are in, because the term 'Palestinian' is relatively new, therefore the Palestinians do not exist."

Give it up, SF.
Posted by fungus, Thursday, 30 May 2013 3:45:08 PM
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If you think that the Arabs were a thriving society in the mid-1800s you are sorely mistaken

Try reading this if you can overcome your blatant hatred and closed mind. It's a very good insight into the region

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/Articles/Article.aspx/747#.UabxtJz4Ict

My family lived in Palestine from 1920 and I can assure you the Arabs were thin on the ground and very much like they are today always ready to fight. My father, who was 2 years old, lost a 19 year old brother in 1922, killed in one of the many Arab riots. Arabs starting arriving from Egypt, Yemen, Lebanon and Syria, which the names will attest to, in the 1930s when the Jews created work for them to do.

Most of the Palestinians did not originate in the land and this is “evident from the family name of many Palestinians:
al-Masri - (Egypt),
al-Iraqi – (Iraq),
al-Trabelsi – (Tripoli, Lebanon), al-Khurani – (southern Syria), al-Tzurani – (Tyre [Tzur], Lebanon), al-Tzidoni – (Sidon, Lebanon), al-Zarkawi – (Zarqa, Jordan)
Posted by SF, Thursday, 30 May 2013 5:21:33 PM
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Bizarre "Palestinian history" argument between Arabs
Posted: 29 May 2013 06:00 AM PDT
In Assabeel, Abdullah Azzak quotes a paper by Muslim Brotherhood personality Professor Abdel Fattah Dukhan. Given at a conference on Palestinian Arab issues, Dukhan argues that the ancient Canaanites were Arabs who fiercely defended their land from the invading Hebrew hordes and held off the invasion for 140 years before David conquered Jerusalem and the Jews occupied this Arab land (way before the Arabs came from, um, Arabia.)

Azzak is pained at this view of history, especially coming from the Muslim Brotherhood. To him, this argument ignores the holiness of the Land of Palestine and Dukhan is ignoring the Quran.

http://elderofziyon.blogspot.com.au/2013/05/bizarre-palestinian-history-argument.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Feed:+blogspot/PDbq+%28Elder+of+Ziyon%29

You see, Allah did promise the land to Abraham - who was, of course, Muslim. All the prophets who followed him - Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, Moses, Jesus - were Muslim too, and they understood the importance of Palestine to the Muslim people. The Hebrews were an Arab tribe and their language is just a variant of Arabic.

The Quran says that David was not a Jewish king but a Muslim as well, and it describes his conquering Palestine as a great event. How can Dukhan ignore this clear Quranic fact??

Today's Jews are not the descendants of the holy prophets of old. Today's Jews are all Khazars, as everyone knows. Hamas founder Ahmed Yassin, and Islamic Jihad founder Fathi Shikaki, and Fatah leader Abu Jihad, are the real descendants of Abraham and the other prophets who Allah promised Palestine to, says Azzak.

You see? It is a fundamental disagreement between people who believe history from a book of myths and those who create their own modern myths.
Posted by SF, Thursday, 30 May 2013 5:32:45 PM
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How does believing in the Palestinians' existence qualify as "blatant hatred"?

That article on "Israel National News" cites Joan Peters' book "From Time Immemorial". That book was systematically debunked by Norman G. Finkelstein. You can read Finkelstein's debunking of "From Time Immemorial" in his book "Image & Reality Of The Israel-Palestine Conflict", and in the book "Blaming The Victims: Spurious Scholarship & The Palestinian Question". The latter was edited by Christopher Hitchens and Edward Said.

The Palestinians are descended from the Canaanites. Yes, their culture became "Arabised" after the Arab conquest, such as by adopting the Arabic language. But they are still indigenous to the area.
Posted by fungus, Thursday, 30 May 2013 5:42:57 PM
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How come you take the word of the loony Left?? Amazing. Finkelstein another self hating Jew!! Your non existent people calling themselves Palestinians are Arabs. Research has shown that.

**PART ONE**

The PLO was founded as an antisemitic movement
Ma'an reports:
President Mahmoud Abbas on Tuesday hailed the creation of the Palestine Liberation Organization as the most significant event in Palestinian people's history.

"(Ahmad) Shuqeiri was asked to figure out what the Palestinians wanted, and he returned with the convention for the PLO," Abbas said at a meeting to mark the 49th anniversary of the PLO's founding.

"We should remind ourselves that this is the most important and significant event in the history of the Palestinian people," the president added.
It is nice that Abbas is admitting that the "Palestinian people" aren't very ancient. What other people who have been around for millennia would say that their most significant event was the founding of an organization in 1964? Imagine the Greeks saying that the most important event in their history was something so trite and recent.

However, this anniversary gives us the opportunity to revisit the original PLO charter, which stated:
Article 24: This Organization does not exercise any territorial sovereignty over the West Bank in the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan, on the Gaza Strip or in the Himmah Area.
According to the PLO, areas occupied by Arabs were already "liberated." Only the parts controlled by Jews were meant to be targeted to obtain their goals.

Curiously, the words "state" and "independence" are also missing from the charter in relationship with its goals. So is any mention of an ancient and historic Palestinian Arab people.

If the original goal of the PLO was not to create a state, not to be independent, and not even to re-establish an ancient homeland, then what was its raison d'être?
Posted by SF, Thursday, 30 May 2013 10:08:49 PM
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'How come you take the word of the loony Left?? Amazing. Finkelstein another self hating Jew!! Your non existent people calling themselves Palestinians are Arabs. Research has shown that.'

How is Finkelstein a self-hating Jew?

Yes the Palestinians are Arabs. That doesn't mean they don't exist.

Here is a link to a website called 'Palestine Remembered'. It's a memorial website to all the Palestinian villages that you claim never existed. It also has statistics for Palestine's 19th Century population that you say never existed. http://www.palestineremembered.com/

Here's a quote from page 14 of Ilan Pappe's book 'A History of Modern Palestine: One Land, Two Peoples': 'On the eve of the Crimean war, about half a million people lived in the land of Palestine. They were Arabic-speaking. Most were Muslims, but about 20,000 were Christians of various denominations, and around 20,000 were Jews.'
Posted by fungus, Friday, 31 May 2013 3:02:26 PM
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You are right about NewMatilda, SamC. I got chucked off after only five posts.

Can anyone beat that?

No wonder the left has such inbred views. One thing that these "tolerance" advocating lefties do not tolerate, is diversity of opinion.
Posted by LEGO, Saturday, 1 June 2013 8:26:03 AM
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LEGO, Sam C claimed that New Matilda is anti-Semitic.
You say Sam C is right.
Can you please provide us with the evidence that New Matilda is anti-Semitic.
Posted by fungus, Saturday, 1 June 2013 7:04:37 PM
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Hi Fungus.

My quip to SamC, that his assertion that Newmatilda was anti Semitic, was because NewMatilda regularly regurgitates the standard left wing party line that the Joos are responsible for the endless cycle of violence in that part of the world. And NM doesn't like anyone who opposes their twisted view.

I got chucked off within 5 posts, which is indicative of how intolerant the left is with anyone who opposes their views on anything.

Could I make an observation here? The left was always a supporter of Israel, but that changed when the Israelis kept winning. People like yourself believe that all human conflicts are caused by oppressors being naughty to victims. Winners are always the oppressors, and losers are always the victims.

Faced with a war where the losers were the oppressors, was just too much for the left. It was a contradiction in their most holy orthodoxy. And many lefties also think that war is caused by racism. The Joos, who are the usual victims of racism by everybody else, should have been the left's natural allies in their campaign against racism.

But what did the Joos do? They created a racist state themselves out of self preservation, just like everybody else has done. This was anathema to the left. The Joos as racist as everybody else? It was unthinkable. It was treason.

So the left swapped sides and made the Israelis the oppressors of the poor little Arab Muslims, who were the world's experts at genocide and ethnic cleansing. Even Muhammad himself was an ethnic cleanser. It is funny when you think about it.

The real reason why the Muslims hate Israel is because it was a land conquered by Islam and it has left the caliphate and become Jewish again. THAT is absolute anathema to Islam. Hitler once said that Nazism could only advance, and he refused to allow his soldiers to ever retreat. THAT is Islam's attitude, exactly.

But in the same way that Lenin scoffed at the West's "useful fools", the Muslims have got you fooled with your own peculiar ideology.
Posted by LEGO, Sunday, 2 June 2013 11:16:47 AM
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As a regular reader of New Matilda, I can honestly state that I have never seen an article on it that claims that the Jews are responsible for the endless cycle of violence in the Middle East.

There have been articles on it about the Israeli/Palestinian conflict, but none of them have claimed that world Jewry is responsible. There is a marked difference between the nation of Israel and the Jewish people.

Your claim that the Arab Muslims are "the world's experts at genocide and ethnic cleansing" is blatantly racist. It tars every Arab Muslim with the same brush. It also completely disregards the validity of the Palestinian plight. If those are the kinds of comments you made on the New Matilda website then I am not surprised they banned you.
Posted by fungus, Sunday, 2 June 2013 9:40:48 PM
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This list of writers pretty much says what the New Matilda web site is about. Plus those who write for it, all on the far left and anti-Israel. Anthony Loewenstein being a very antisemitic self-hating Jew, who I have had the misfortune to cross paths with on occasion.

In May 2007, the policy section of newmatilda.com separated to become the Centre for Policy Development, a left-wing think tank.

• Andrew Bartlett Bartlett is currently the convenor of the Queensland Greens

• Robert Fisk Middle East correspondent of The Independent for over thirty years, based in Beirut. Very left leaning publication

• Clive Hamilton Australian Greens candidate

• Antony Loewenstein No more comments

• John Pilger Far left, with charges against him for his inaccuracies and bias against Israel

• Helen Razer Writes for the Age and SMH. Pretty much sums her up

• Stuart Rees Getting further left a we go along. Director of the Centre for Peace and Conflict Studies at the University of Sydney

• Lee Rhiannon Full blown RED

• Tim Soutphommasane The Financial Times, the Age and SMH.

• Marcus Westbury The Age
Posted by Sam C, Sunday, 2 June 2013 10:38:48 PM
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In response to Sam C:

'Anthony [sic] Loewenstein being a very antisemitic self-hating Jew'

How is Antony Loewenstein an anti-Semitic self-hating Jew?

The others you listed you have only described as being left-wing. You haven't explained how they are anti-Semitic.

'John Pilger Far left, with charges against him for his inaccuracies and bias against Israel'

What charges?
Posted by fungus, Monday, 3 June 2013 11:21:11 AM
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Hi Fungus.

And of course, you would not tar Nazis, KKK members or One Nation supporters (who you probably think are one and the same anyway) with the same brush? Islam is a belief system, and Nazism is a belief system. What is good for the goose is good for the gander.

Everybody, my dear Fungus, identifies groups of people that we don't like. We don't like them because we object to their beliefs, or we object to their behaviour. We all condemn individuals according to their group memberships unless those individuals clearly, publically and unreservedly distance themselves from the values, attitudes and behaviours of their peers.

Britain was once considered by left wingers as the scum of the earth, because Britain once had the greatest empire of all. I can still remember the maps on the wall of my school classes that had red all over them denoting the extent of empire. But where is that empire now? Consider the empire of Islam. Wherever the Muslims went, so went ethnic cleansing and forced conversion, coupled with the death penalty for apostates. So the Caliphate empire of Islam is still there. It seems to me that the Muslim practice of empire that mandated genocide and ethnic cleansing on religious grounds was far more effective as a means of colonial expansion than the British system of paternalism.

But NewMatilda was never going to allow me to say that. The truth hurts their ears.
Posted by LEGO, Thursday, 6 June 2013 8:27:22 AM
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LEGO, caliphates allowed people to practice other religions aside from Islam. That is why there are Arab Jews, Arab Christians and Arab Druze
Posted by fungus, Friday, 7 June 2013 12:09:08 PM
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