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The Forum > Article Comments > A creed for the 21st century > Comments

A creed for the 21st century : Comments

By Brian Holden, published 24/4/2013

Assuming that you are in the majority, then you have abandoned the religion of your childhood.

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Interesting facts, Brian, but facts no values produce.

Experiencing the divine can occur while watching the sunset on the beach, or the stars, or while trying to solve a problem in geometry. But then it can also occur while looking for your lost keys.

The problem about it is that people who had a glimpse of the divine, tend to attribute it to their immediately-prior activity, thus you may have a creed of sunset-watchers, a creed of star-watchers, a creed of geometry-solvers and a creed of lost-key-searchers, all competing and fanatically insisting that theirs is the only way.

Dear Foyle,

While there are societies that have no concept of God, that does not make them in fact a "Society without God".

Atheists can be as religious as anyone else.
Posted by Yuyutsu, Thursday, 25 April 2013 1:05:51 AM
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Yuyutsu,
you wrote, "While there are societies that have no concept of God, that does not make them in fact a "Society without God".
Atheists can be as religious as anyone else."

You need to have some idea of what a religion is. Religion is usually considered to be belief that a supernatural being exists or that there is something in addition to the natural world.

If people accept, as I do, that only the natural world exists those people cannot be considered religious.

I accept that when my brain dies that is the end of me. All I can hope to do is leave behind some offspring and some worthwhile changes I have helped introduce
Posted by Foyle, Thursday, 25 April 2013 7:07:30 AM
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Dear Foyle,

<<Religion is usually considered to be belief that a supernatural being exists or that there is something in addition to the natural world.>>

Yes, this is often how religion is superficially considered, mistaking just one possible religious technique for the whole of religion. For many people, perhaps even for most and for most of their religious journey, believing in something outside the natural world is useful because it helps to loosen their attachment to the natural world. Nevertheless, it is only a technique and some religions do not even use it.

<<If people accept, as I do, that only the natural world exists those people cannot be considered religious.>>

Wouldn't you agree that many who do accept that things exist outside the natural world are irreligious, even if they go to church (take paedophile priests as an example)? Judging to what extent one is religious or otherwise is very difficult - one must consider their whole life, whether in fact they lead a life that brings them closer to God, not just what they happen to mentally believe in or not.

<<I accept that when my brain dies that is the end of me.>>

This sentence is self-contradictory:

WHO accepts that?

The brain? well surely when the brain dies it will be the brain's end, that's a tautology, but you just wrote "when MY brain dies" - WHOSE brain?
Posted by Yuyutsu, Thursday, 25 April 2013 10:36:54 AM
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Foyle – I don’t know why you just don’t answer the question, “What do you say to people who choose to do things, that impact upon you, that you don’t like?”

I would be very surprised if there are no jails in Iceland, Norway Sweden, Denmark, Finland and The Netherlands. But if there is no purpose to our existence, as Brian correctly asserts, in an atheistic universe, then whatever one person chooses to do is just as “good” or “bad” as what any other person does. Locking people up for doing certain things is just an exercise of raw power by those who are able to get away with it.

You say that you want to leave behind “some worthwhile changes I have helped introduce”. In a purposeless universe, the notion of “worthwhile changes” is completely incoherent. Change can only be meaningful if there is some objective goal that can be aimed for, but such a goal is clearly absent in a purposeless universe.

Of course if you are referring to your own subjective purposes that you simply happen to have made up, you can consider changes you make in that direction to be “worthwhile”. But equally you would have to concede that the changes that Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, etc, made to try and achieve their own subjective goals were equally as “worthwhile” for them. But would you really want to do that?
Posted by JP, Thursday, 25 April 2013 11:03:13 AM
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JP,

You've had your arguments on this topic (your only topic, apparently - I can only imagine how deep and complex your theology must be) discredited many, many times. But in true Christian fashion, you simply come back, repeat the same discredited nonsense, and somehow think that's okay.

I explained the absurdity of your position here at http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=13321#230298

Let's grant that a god (your god, even) exists. So what? Why should I do what they say just because they say it? That's like a parent saying, "Because I said so." That's not a reason. Not as much of a reason as, "Because my actions have consequences and I have to live and get along with those around me", at least.

Anyway, it's as I've said to you once before, if you can't see why immoral and criminal acts are bad without a god to tell you that they are, then you have sacrificed your humanity in deference to your god.

I suggest you keep your beliefs. You'd obviously be a danger to society without them; I'm sure you'd agree. Apparently you're incapable of living a civil, law-abiding life like most atheists, and a proportionately smaller percentage of theists, are.
Posted by AJ Philips, Thursday, 25 April 2013 8:31:34 PM
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A great point, AJ Philips:

<<Let's grant that a god (your god, even) exists. So what?>>

Excellent observation! Just above I wrote: "Interesting facts, Brian, but facts no values produce". In other words, existence is meaningless as it cannot form a basis for values, for love, for truth, for religion, for goodness - not even the existence of god.

<<Why should I do what they say just because they say it?>>

Indeed, God never said anything, but wise sages who knew God observed that "the kingdom of God is justice and peace and joy in the holy spirit": http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WL1_IhVTJmk

Now obviously there is no such place in existence that is "the kingdom of God" - what this statement means is that when one subjects him/herself to God and crown Him as one's king (willingly and lovingly, not because one 'should'), then one finds justice, peace, joy and much more.

Now it would be silly to suggest that people who do not believe in God cannot have values and even excellent values. One can crown God as one's king even unconsciously with no reference to any concepts and ideas. A concept of God may help, but is not strictly necessary.

You have such values yourself, which you seem to take for granted even if you mistakenly believe that they come from humanity. I would say that this is a technical error, that these values come from subjecting yourself to God, at least to some degree - but who cares: so long as you do have those values of goodness, however you rationalise them - then whether you believe so or not, you have at least a foot in God's kingdom.
Posted by Yuyutsu, Thursday, 25 April 2013 10:44:54 PM
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