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The Forum > Article Comments > Why would you give a Gonski? > Comments

Why would you give a Gonski? : Comments

By Tom Lovell, published 12/4/2013

What should be clear is the government gets far better for its money from independent schools than government ones.

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I have no brief for the Teachers' Federation, but nonetheless it seems obvious to me that an education which is subsidised by parental fees will cost less than an education which is not. Just as if I decide to buy a private jet for my own use, pay 50% of the cost myself and charge the rest to the government, it will cost the government less than buying a private jet for itself. So what? The real issue is whether I should have a private jet at all, and if so, why the taxpayers should be obliged to pay for ANY proportion of it.

If I choose to go out to films and shows when I could stay home and watch TV for nothing, I expect to pay the full price for my choices. Why aren't people who choose to send their children to private schools, when free schools are available, treated the same way?
Posted by Jon J, Friday, 12 April 2013 6:55:33 AM
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Jon J, that argument sounds reasonable but it is not well thought through. Let's look at the bigger picture of public/private.
Private health cover - I take it out because I can afford to. It saves the government billions (not me personally!) but means on top of my premiums, I am always out of pocket when I access medical services.
By your argument, I have "chosen" this private service, so should pay the lot.
This goes for many other examples as well.
Education is the same. The government simply cannot afford to fund all education services in Australia, so private education exists.
Does the funding formula need to be looked at? Absolutely (and this from someone who works in private education).
Posted by rational-debate, Friday, 12 April 2013 8:27:46 AM
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I agree with the author.
The Government should be encouraging more private schools.

At least then, those parents that can pay more for their kids education would have to do so. Government schools should cater for those students with parents on low incomes , welfare payments and healthcare cards.

I do believe however that the Government should supply a basic education payment for every child...but not to the parents, to the schools.
Posted by Suseonline, Friday, 12 April 2013 8:34:02 AM
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Private schools should be prevented from indoctrinating their students with religious propaganda.

Schools should be completely secular until the student is seventeen years of age and is able to think for him or her self.

How else will we rid our society of the derangement and divisiveness that religion brings?
Posted by David G, Friday, 12 April 2013 8:38:13 AM
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The author – like almost every person who has reported or commented on the Gonski review in every newspaper, magazine and blog that I have read – does not understand the current funding system or the recommendations. He says, “The Gonski review and its supporters suggests that private schools should receive(sic) less funding from the government determined by means testing the parents of students who attend.” This is the current system. Repeat: this is the current system. The means test is applied by calculating the SES of the neighbours of the students who attend the school via census collector districts. The Gonski panel proposes keeping this initially and then refining it to the SES of the mesh blocks and eventually the SES of the parents themselves. The current system and the Gonksi system are both SES models. Repeat: the current system and the Gonksi system are both SES models. If you oppose the Gonski SES model, then you ought to oppose the Howard SES model. Strangely, the supporters of the SES model (e.g., the Coalition) now oppose it, while its former opponents (e.g., the AEU) now support it.

The Gonksi panel has endorsed the Howard government’s SES funding model. You won’t read that in the press, as journalists have shown themselves to be credulous in the extreme.

I refer anyone who wants the facts to
http://www.aph.gov.au/Parliamentary_Business/Committees/House_of_Representatives_Committees?url=ee/auseducation/subs.htm (No. 46)
http://community.tes.co.uk/forums/t/576719.aspx?PageIndex=1
http://community.tes.co.uk/forums/t/576719.aspx?PageIndex=6
http://www.deewr.gov.au/Schooling/ReviewofFunding/SubGen/Documents/Curtis_Chris.pdf
http://www.deewr.gov.au/Schooling/ReviewofFunding/SubGen/Documents/Curtis_Chris_Attachment_1.pdf
http://www.deewr.gov.au/Schooling/ReviewofFunding/SubGen/Documents/Curtis_Chris_Attachment_2.pdf
http://www.deewr.gov.au/Schooling/ReviewofFunding/SubEip/AtoF/Documents/Curtis_Chris.pdf
and
http://www.deewr.gov.au/Schooling/ReviewofFunding/SubResearch/AtoM/Documents/Curtis_Chris.pdf.

I can’t be bothered commenting on the anti-union gibberish in the article.
Posted by Chris C, Friday, 12 April 2013 10:00:51 AM
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Private schools give better education and cost the government less.

The Gonski proposal is to throw more money at the failed Union controlled public system. When this has been done before and failed, why will it work now?
Posted by Shadow Minister, Friday, 12 April 2013 11:52:57 AM
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Oh dear what i think is clear from reading this is the author most likely has not read the Gonski report. He has more than likely read what the right wing press have said the report says and taken it a face value.
Some of the comments are the usual don't let the facts get in the way of your opinion we say by posters on this site.
All Australian kids should have access to a good education no matter what the personal circumstance of the parents. That means kids with disabilities or in remote or regional areas, kids with developmental or behavioural problems should all have equal access.
Private schools have the option of turning these kids away, an option that they exercise regularly.
Posted by Kenny, Friday, 12 April 2013 12:32:49 PM
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Kenny,

That private schools don't cater for children with disabilities is not surprising, since the subsidy they get is the same for a normal child as a disabled one. Public schools catering for disabilities get up to $36000 per child whilst the private schools still get about $6000.

Kids with "behavioral" problems such as assault and bullying, not only disrupt the teachers, but the learning for all the other students. They should be separated from those that actually want to learn.
Posted by Shadow Minister, Friday, 12 April 2013 1:25:01 PM
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Kenny, private schools do not have the option of turning away children with disabilities any more than public schools do. It is against the law.

The reason why many children with disabilities do not attend private schools, is that their parents quickly realise they can access much more funding, and many more services, if they attend a public school.

But that's not reverse discrimination at all...
Posted by rational-debate, Friday, 12 April 2013 2:43:34 PM
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maybe we should focus a little on fairness and equity in education, at the expense of economics.
Posted by peter mills, Friday, 12 April 2013 4:04:08 PM
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We need to look at the desired outcome due to education. Do you want mindless consumers such as with which our society is now plagued with or do we want a clear & sober thinking society.
If you want the former stick with the public schools, if you want the latter help supporting them by paying for your children to attend them. One proviso, to make private education affordable you need to support the parents first & they can then support the schools.
A flat tax would make this achievable in one political term. With decent politicians at the helm of course.
Posted by individual, Friday, 12 April 2013 5:52:27 PM
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Shadow Minister, if you think that the reason most private schools strive to avoid having to accept their share of our country's difficult and disruptive students is because of funding disparities, you need a reality check. The reason they prefer not to have them is because they are hard work and mitigate against their chances of securing the kinds of test results that they can boast about on their prospectuses and benefiting from the accompanying, often completely undeserved, gushing praise from a largely credulous popular media. It seems you actually understand this from your final comment which suggests you think the best place for difficult students is on some educational scrap heap somewhere, probably in the local government school.

Rational Debate: <Kenny, private schools do not have the option of turning away children with disabilities any more than public schools do. It is against the law.>

Could you please identify the law that you claim prevents private schools from turning away students they don't want and explain why, if such a law exists, the great majority of difficult and disadvantaged students are cared for by public schools, not private. Are you saying that private schools habitually flaunt the law?
Posted by GlenC, Friday, 12 April 2013 11:10:13 PM
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I'll also point out, SM, that children with developmental delays and similar challenges are far more likely to be the targets of bullying behaviour than the instigators.

We all know how accommodating so-called "normal" kids are to those who don't quite fit within the round holes.
Posted by Poirot, Friday, 12 April 2013 11:26:01 PM
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Would someone please explain why a baby born to uneducated, drug addicted, lazy .... etc .... parents does not deserve exactly the same excellent education as one born to hard working educated and self disciplined .... etc.... parents!
Posted by Atlarak, Saturday, 13 April 2013 8:27:46 AM
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a baby born to uneducated, drug addicted, lazy .... etc .... parents does not deserve exactly the same excellent.
Atlarak,
Of course it should but how can you reasonably expect that to happen with such parents. It has been done in the past with children from Britain & mixed race/indigenous children. The only big problem with that was the children had to be removed from unfit parents. Sadly, many children were also taken from fit parents.
Good will is not always the same in others' eyes. If we remove children from their left-wing drugged up moron mums & dads we'll be accused of stealing them all over again.
I put the greater percentage of blame for unfit parents straight at the feet of our bureaucrats. If they did what they were hired for & get paid for & if we had a National Service & a flat tax the incidence of young parents failing their children would be cut by 75% overnight.
teachers are so overpaid now that most their concentration goes into protecting their Super instead of planning for the next class.
Posted by individual, Saturday, 13 April 2013 4:23:28 PM
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GlenC,

I never said that private schools turn away kids that are disruptive, nor do they turn away kids with disabilities. For kids with learning disabilities, they don't cater for the 2 teachers per class, or slower curriculum that those with severe learning disabilities need. Otherwise they don't discriminate against students.

My kids schools have taken kids with behavioural problems, and they quickly learnt that there were immediate and severe consequences. Many reformed to acceptable (but not perfect) behaviour, those that didn't left. Public schools have a code of conduct, but don't enforce it with inevitable results.

Atlarak,

Good question, considering that many independent schools have no better funding than public schools, but on average out perform the public schools, the question then is why not privatise more schools?
Posted by Shadow Minister, Saturday, 13 April 2013 4:36:36 PM
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on average out perform the public schools,
Shadow minister,
That is simply a reflection of the public service system. You still get paid no matter how ineffective you are in your job. From those whose tax dollars too many bureaucrats live off ,
thank you inconsiderate Unions.
Posted by individual, Sunday, 14 April 2013 9:41:29 AM
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There is one reason Atlarak. In my experience all too many of those kids don't want the education when offered, & disrupt everyone else when forced to attend schools.

In one well run public high school in a city fringe/country area, the head instituted a number of automotive work classes, & farming practices classes.

Some of the students involved discovered reading & arithmetic were actually useful, & started learning academically. Others may not have learnt to read any better than previously, but at least had something they enjoyed doing at school, & aquired some life skills.

It is not more money that's required, just imagination, & decent teachers, a couple of things not that common in public schools.
Posted by Hasbeen, Sunday, 14 April 2013 10:25:31 AM
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Well, Hasbeen, I have to agree with you on this one.

When young people are given the opportunity to apply their knowledge or to learn by life application, they are furnished with a sense of continuity....it makes "sense".

It's all very well to think that you can merely stuff children full of "knowledge", and at some future juncture they'll have the opportunity to apply it. But that's not how humans work...they need to experience the knowledge and the application coming together in a life situation for it to attain true meaning
Posted by Poirot, Sunday, 14 April 2013 10:37:21 AM
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Good article.

In response to an early inane comment: It is government responsibility to provide an effective education for every school student, within the limits of the individual student's capabilities. Doing that by partially funding Private schools is demonstrably highly effective, keeps school fees down so that more parents are able to take advantage of the private school system, and maximises public expenditure. Whereas, reducing this partial funding, or eliminating it, would cause their fees to escalate, so Private schools would have to become elitist - with only the children of well-off parents being able to attend. A definite Lose!
And what then of the public system? More students, more money wasted in a flawed and failing system - failing the students that is.

Want top-class education? Then support the development of more Private schools.
Support for students with special needs: Some can only benefit from attendance at Special Schools - and there should be more of these.
Also, I personally know of one Private school which went the extra yard with a student with some reading/writing, and hence learning, difficulty. (And, he's now at University.) His former PUBLIC school offered Nothing!

There are so many lousy public schools, simply throwing money at them could never remedy their inherent systemic problems.
The private schools have an effective formula, at a lower cost to the public purse per student, so it would be far better if there were more of them and fewer (and much improved) public schools.
Fewer public schools, with fewer students, could then be upgraded (by applying similar employment and resource-use measures applied in Private schools), facilitating greater attention to students with 'needs', so as to possibly become 'best practice' schools serving the needs of lower income families and 'troubled' or disruptive students.
If public schools can still not rise to the mark? Go Private altogether. (And, take Education Off the States!)
Posted by Saltpetre, Sunday, 14 April 2013 1:10:07 PM
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At last I think I'm getting the idea. Every time you add another private school, you increase the number of kids who finish up above average and you reduce the amount it costs to educate them. So if we replaced all government schools with private schools, in no time at all every school kid in the country would be above average and the cost of educating them would have dropped to nearly nothing.

Why has it taken everybody so long to twig to this?
Posted by GlenC, Monday, 15 April 2013 12:06:24 AM
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Why has it taken everybody so long to twig to this?
GlenC,
Not everybody, only those academic bureaucrats in authority !
Posted by individual, Monday, 15 April 2013 7:01:54 AM
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Glen C, you comment "Could you please identify the law that you claim prevents private schools from turning away students they don't want and explain why, if such a law exists, the great majority of difficult and disadvantaged students are cared for by public schools, not private. Are you saying that private schools habitually flaunt the law?"

The law is the Disability Discrimination Act, a federal act, and it applies to all schools in Australia. Any hint that a school, public or private, had breached the act, would be followed up. To date, not one school that has been charged, has been successful in defending itself.

Could you please give me one example of a school, private or public, that has breached this act? Put up or shut up.

As I said earlier, it is generally parents of disabled children who choose not to go to Private schools, because they see that the funding is simply not available to assist them.
Posted by rational-debate, Thursday, 18 April 2013 5:48:44 PM
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