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The Forum > Article Comments > Red-Green politics retrograde on prostitution > Comments

Red-Green politics retrograde on prostitution : Comments

By Matthew Holloway, published 21/11/2012

The Australian Left needs to examine the broader human rights issues at play in the prostitution debate.

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What will you do to slake the demand ?
Free Penthouse Magazines and KY jelly ?
Posted by Garum Masala, Wednesday, 21 November 2012 8:17:04 AM
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...And further; I defy anybody with a normal social conscience (IE: That little “intuition or judgment of the intellect that distinguishes right from wrong”) to oppose a new brothel to be installed in the center of your town under the new paradigm of decriminalized prostitution!

...You will be introduced to a State sponsored “Show-Trial” at your local Magistrates Court presided over by a compliant Judge of the “Land and Environment Court”, which will proceed to demonstrate to you and your community, just how insignificant you and your fellow citizens are in the scheme designed to officially divorce you from traditional Australian community morals.

...You will also observe evidence of the “Land and Environment Courts’” overarching power, as it strips away all rights from your local Council to maintain the expected standard of community morality by assisting prostitution in its broader entry into Australian life, unhindered by community standards.

...The State has now joined the “Prostitution Racket” under decriminalization legislation: What a disgrace!
Posted by diver dan, Wednesday, 21 November 2012 9:32:52 AM
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When men respect their manhood, they realise that women are not objects for trade, purchase or exploitation and that there is no such thing as a right to have women available on demand, for a fee, to be used for their sexual gratification.
Posted by Pat G, Wednesday, 21 November 2012 9:52:56 AM
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PatG:

...By assisting (sic) prostitutes with better outcomes and decriminalising prostitution, Governments have allowed themselves to become confused over the moral question which is strongly associated with prostitution: “What is more important, the welfare of the prostitute or the social stability and the accepted morality of our communities”?

...Governments have firmly landed on the “wrong” side in this decision by supporting the decriminalising of prostitution and running behind the "screen" by discounting out altogether a moral conflict which the community must themselves decide on, but are now unable since the moral question will not be officially debated...by LAW!
Posted by diver dan, Wednesday, 21 November 2012 10:26:48 AM
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Congratulations Matthew on clearly enunciating the issues here.

Prime Minister Julia Gillard announced in Phnom Penh, Cambodia, yesterday that Australia will fund a $50 million effort in a bid to reduce trafficking of people in Asia. The announcement made yesterday about people trafficking "aims to increase convictions and reduce opportunities for trafficking, while victims of trafficking will be supported through the criminal justice process" (news.com.au-20 Nov 12)

Legalising prostitution in Australian States is equivalent to rolling a red carpet out to sex traffickers; increasing opportunities for trafficking and exploitation.

The Australian Christian Lobby gave evidence yesterday in Canberra to the Joint Standing Committee Inquiry into Slavery, Slavery like conditions and People Trafficking in Australia supporting the Nordic approach to regulation (see below)

http://www.acl.org.au/2012/11/lyle-sheltons-statement-to-parliamentary-inquiry-on-slavery/

It is vital that State Parliaments investigate the Nordic approach which rightly respects the dignity of women and has been very successful in reducing sex trafficking, where implemented.
Posted by Dan Flynn, Victorian Director, ACL, Wednesday, 21 November 2012 10:53:43 AM
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There is something missing in the life of any man who feels a need to use the services of a prostitute, erotic masseuse, or stripper. Something must be closed in a man for him to use 'sex services.' His lust drives him to forget that the women in this 'industry' are someone's daughters, someone's sisters. They deserve better than to be treated as the object of someone's lust. Decriminalisation of prostitution is the wrong way to go. Rather, it should be a criminal offense for any man or woman to employ another person for 'sexual services' or to provide 'sexual services' of any kind. And concrete assistance needs to be given to the victims of sexual exploitation.
Posted by Jack Bigboots, Wednesday, 21 November 2012 11:49:36 AM
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It's time everyone realised women are EQUAL to men.

That does not mean they are ALL equal or all better or smarter than men.

It means there are as many corrupt buggers among women's ranks as there are in men's.

It means that young men, some 40-50% judging by divorce rates need emotional and fiscal protection from what are essentially bridezillas.

The best way to do this is by not only legalising prostitution but encouraging parents to take their sons to a prostitute upon puberty.

It is NOT a sin to introduce children to viruses to innoculate them at appropriate ages and it is NOT a sin to introduce them to the REALITIES of 'the SEX act' as opposed to 'love' at the right age.

If this measure served to make equal rights beneficial to BOTH sexes and save $trillions in wasted lives surrounding divorces then all MORALISIN objections should be proscribed forthwith.

The dumb MORALISERS are probably in the most dire need of visiting a prostitute to get rid of their BIGOTRY & IGNORANCE viruses.

The only downside here is that knowing the realities of the sex act, men will no longer put women on unrealistic pedestals. True women will applaud this. Only corrupt individuals of either gender will realise the losses this will incur to THEM.

But Sex has never been our enemy. The enemy has always been corrupt individuals, women moreso than men) who dangle it on a string to make PROFIT. Bring on the legalised prostitution and wave bye - bye to criminals. Imagine corporations without essentially prostitution adds because the allure has faded with the REALITY?
Half of them would go bankrupt and have to find something socially benficial to occupy them.

PS Sex with prostitutes is not addictive like drugs. There are many costs associated with prostitution & relatively small gains. Only societies that create 'suffering for profits' out of 'fools gold sexuality' can create the NEED for and obverse addiction to prostitution and self harm & self loathing in general.

Hint: The biggest voices against prostitution will be media &Corporate..
See Rupert twitch!
Posted by KAEP, Wednesday, 21 November 2012 12:20:48 PM
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How refreshing to see nations like Sweden, Norway and Ice Land, take the lead on this issue. Clearly they believe in equality. Legislating against profit obtained as a result of an employee being naked or semi naked is outstanding. Why are we doing the opposite? Our politicians and society must step up and consider such a law. None of us want our mother, sister or child to be exploited in this way. We should take measures to ensure no one else can be either.
Posted by Smiles70, Wednesday, 21 November 2012 1:26:03 PM
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So let me see. If I go to the pub, tell her a heap of lies about
how great she looks and push her emotional buttons to get into her
pants and have a freebie, if she is sucked in, that is ok then.

If she has sex with me as she thinks I have money and she can get
at it by marriage or cohabition for a bit, that is ok too.

But if both people are honest with each other, have no hang ups about sex, rather then just be friends with benefits, he actually gives her
some money, that should be banned according to you lot.

What a warped sense of values you have. Sex is natural and normal,
deal with it. We have moved on in the last 50 years.
Posted by Yabby, Wednesday, 21 November 2012 2:00:55 PM
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I knew a Yabby once.

I cooked and ate it!

Ha Ha!
Posted by KAEP, Wednesday, 21 November 2012 2:15:03 PM
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Well done Matthew.

How long will Australian State and Federal Governments cower in the corner whilst forward thinking nations are decisive on this issue?
Clearly prostitution will always be exploitative and harmful.

If we genuinely care about the well being and equality of women in our society we will refuse to decriminalise an industry that portrays women as willing commodities, that allows clients to gratify themselves at the expense of hurting vulnerable women, and normalises greedy pimps into "business managers".

I totally agree with another writer who pointed out that prostitutes are always someone's daughter, someone's sister. They are not nameless unfeeling bodies to be exploited.
Decriminalising prostitution only perpetuates this harmful myth to the buyers.

The Nordic model has been successful. Other countries rightfully have followed their lead.

Will Australia?
Posted by Mieke D, Wednesday, 21 November 2012 2:46:45 PM
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Since this thread gained momentum, predictably a SMH article about legalising marijuana has arrived.

The article points out 10 bogus advantages of THC and neglects the main game:

MJ Side smoke contains highly addictive THC. At present it is assiduously covered up so users don't get busted.

If legal, the side smoke will drift from a hyped up neighbour into you child's bedroom and by the age of 12 your child will have an unexplained addiction to cannabis and a life spriral into hell.

Great news for Corporate Australia which invests heavily into ANYTHING that make money. And Drugs make money by the bags.!

This is an interesting diversion to take the glare off legalising prostitution which is a danger for Corporations with sexualised advertising. It will ruin a lot of investor profits by unmasking the female MYSTERY and its current allure.

This Cannabis diversion not only does not work, it is, by its omission of fact, EVIL in intent.
Posted by KAEP, Wednesday, 21 November 2012 3:06:13 PM
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"allows clients to gratify themselves at the expense of hurting vulnerable women, and normalises greedy pimps into "business managers".

Huh?

The whole point of decriminalising is to give prostitutes rights so they can get rid of the pimps and provide society with a very important antidote to corporate window dressing that now surrounds something very basic and very unglamorous in nature.

Grow up Baby! You put women on pedestals! That is a fool's errnd.
Posted by KAEP, Wednesday, 21 November 2012 3:14:12 PM
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Well I see the wowsers are out in force today. You really have to wonder why they bother: it's known as the oldest profession for a reason. The horse has well and truly bolted on this one.

Most people like sex. Some have more Victorian sensibilities and think that sex and nudity are shameful, disgusting and sinful but they are a minority - albeit a noisy one. I don't see how money changing hands turns a good thing into a bad thing.

Cheers,

Tony
Posted by Tony Lavis, Wednesday, 21 November 2012 3:15:31 PM
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"Greedy Pimps" is a feminist myth and the subject of too many B grade hollywood dramas.
Is it not the case that in most brothels the management and procurers of sex workers are women? The normal set up is that some entity, most often a syndicate of men are the financiers and profiteers from sexual services but the day to day conditions under which the prostitutes work and the means by which they are recruited are overseen by other women, the "Madams" and their staff.
I lived on Gray St in St Kilda for some years and was something of a lowlife myself and the figure of the "Ponce" was ever present on the streets, the junkie sponger or the idler who lived in part off the earnings of a prostitute girlfriend but I never came across a "Pimp", The working girls I knew would work as runners for drug dealers, sell themselves and pull scams and rob people but I never heard of people standing over them forcing them do these things.
Posted by Jay Of Melbourne, Wednesday, 21 November 2012 3:35:21 PM
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Disagreeing about decriminalising prostitution makes me a wowser or perhaps a moralising victorian hater of sex and nudity? I think not.

Just look at the research in Matthew's article.

Many prostitutes do not want to be in the business but see no way out.
A great majority of prostitutes have been sexually abused as kids and many turn to drugs to depersonalise from what they think they have to do.
There is a thriving industry in trafficked women here in Australia.
Legalising prostitution will never discourage this. Illegal brothels turn up even more where it has been decriminalised.

Decriminalising validates the "profession". Is this just another job you can encourage your kids to think about as a worthy healthy career option?
Posted by Mieke D, Wednesday, 21 November 2012 4:38:35 PM
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oh dear the ACL is out in force, it's no wonder the pews are empty. Never mind prositution, can you guys focus on getting your peers to stop touching the kids.
Posted by Kenny, Wednesday, 21 November 2012 4:54:45 PM
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*Many prostitutes do not want to be in the business but see no way out.*

Many people do boring and mundane jobs every day, all their lives,
for a few bucks an hour, but see no way out. Now go and tell a
high class hooker who is charging businessmen 500$ an hour for
her time, that she is being exploited and should quit. Perhaps
she should have a choice, no matter what the Catholic Church thinks.

In Sweden what is has come down to is that a few rabid feminists
just can't bear the thought of men out there, enjoying themselves,
so they have hijacked the political agenda.
Posted by Yabby, Wednesday, 21 November 2012 6:27:09 PM
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While most of the managers of brothels and procurers of women may also be women, who actually owns the brothels and takes the lions share of the money? I have only come across one brothel owner, he is a sleazy, thuggish illiterate who says openly 'all women are whores', and lives like a lord a long way removed from his 'businesses'. His business partners are all men. If women actually want to be prostitutes all power to them, but how many are driven to it by poverty, homelessness, drug addiction, trafficking and stand-over men/women? How many girls aspire to be prostitutes when they grow up?
Posted by Candide, Wednesday, 21 November 2012 6:28:45 PM
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The sex police are out in force on this issue, condemning without any evidence in Australia that persons ( blokes as well) who work in the sex industry are being forced to particpate.
One does wonder what sort of sex life and personal relationships these anti sex people have. Queen Victoria died a long time ago, guess what, in those days they where many brothels and even the royals of the day enjoyed the experience, but there where no safe guards for the sex workers, is that what you lot want.
Posted by Kipp, Wednesday, 21 November 2012 6:56:50 PM
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The whole argument put here looks fundamentally paternalistic and sexist. Put into simpler terms, women are incapable of making informed choices for themselves, men are responsible for their involvementand should assume that the women involved are not capable of making their own choices.

I accept the proposition that some women are forced into "sex work" by circumstances which they may have had little control over and I'd also accept that some of those men who pay for sexual services have other ways of gaining some form of sexual intimacy in their lives.

I doubt very much that in any modern western nation the difference in control of their lives between prostitute and customer is as clearly differentiated as seems to be implied in the article.

Glad to see that the Australian left are apparently a lot more progressive than some of their peers and are closer to treating women as equal to men rather than the inferior status implied by the laws described in the article.

R0bert
Posted by R0bert, Wednesday, 21 November 2012 8:00:40 PM
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what about our asexual sparring partners here on OLO, the lefties ?
Posted by individual, Wednesday, 21 November 2012 8:52:18 PM
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Why is the ALP so out of line with its international counterparts when it comes to protecting the rights of women in this regard? Being a prostitute should not be the problem - paying for sex and therefore encouraging others with more access to choices (brothel owners and pimps) to profit from exploited women should be illegal. The 'Swedish Model' is good for exploited women, good for society, and bad for those trafficking in and profiting from this aspect of human misery. Wake up Australia!
Posted by Captain Kuhle, Wednesday, 21 November 2012 9:55:07 PM
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Wake up Australia!
Captain Kuhle,
That's a huge call !
Posted by individual, Thursday, 22 November 2012 5:50:18 AM
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Candide,
Most prostitutes are freelancers, mums, wives, students,normal women in other words who can tolerate the work without going mental or turning to drugs, in my experience the ones who are seriously exploited are treated so because, as you say they are at a disadvantage for some reason, either addicted, mentally ill or damaged in some other way, the type of woman who is exploited by everyone. Look at the "personal services" column in your local paper, before he passed on an elderly acquaintance of mine used to have a "date" once or twice a month with a nice young woman he found in that very section of the Leader, are we going to go after Newscorp as well for profiting from the sex industry?
Posted by Jay Of Melbourne, Thursday, 22 November 2012 8:20:25 PM
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I have always found it interesting that in the drug trade it is the "poor addicted users" who are considered the victims, & the bleeding hearts cry all over them, regardless of the criminal things they do others, to find the money required.

The suppliers are the bad ones, pushing their evil trade, & exploiting their addicted victims need.

In the sex trade, somehow the feminazis have managed to turn this around. The "poor addicted users", the men are the bad ones, who do nothing but pay handsomely for the offered service.

The suppliers the women pushing their evil trade, exploiting their victims need, have some how become the victims.

What utter twaddle.

One of the girls at uni with my daughter told her she had become a call girl on the side. She reckoned she got sick of putting out for a $40 dollar meal, expected by every bloke she went out with. Now she only put out for $500 plus a $75 meal, & quite often the sex was better.

Wouldn't it be lovely if one half would let the other half live their lives as they bleedingly please?
Posted by Hasbeen, Thursday, 22 November 2012 10:32:47 PM
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Reply to: Posted by Mieke D, Wednesday, 21 November 2012 4:38:35 PM

We spent 10 months in Camboida recently, I wouldn't believe most of the research you read, i't's mostly a bunch of twaddle to justify well funded NGO's getting more money to continue their existence. The worst culprit was Aus Aid themselves, I am sure they do some good, it just wasn't evident.

We talked to a few girls from a "Chicken Farm" the poorest of the poor prostitutes, the liked being their. It sure as hell beat the 12 hour days of back breaking work in the rice fields, or so they told us. We spoke to one girl who had been "interviewed" by and NGO, they paid her money, she told them what her friend said they wanted to here, so they would come back and give them more money.

I saw the author is concerned about "social justice", and ephemeral term if I ever heard one and working with a socially backwards organisation like the "Catholics" (how many Women priests are there exactly ? & no condoms so HIV is rife in developing Worlds because of their lunacy ! and they want to "preach" about "womens" issues ?. I suspect ensconced in Melbourne he has has little understanding of it at all. Go live with theses people for six months or so, make friends with them. Concentrate on education and health, the rest is mostly nonsense.

"Social justice" IS nonsensical when they barely have enough money to put food in their month or can't afford medical care for the plethora of ailments endemic in developing nations.
Posted by Valley Guy, Sunday, 25 November 2012 7:59:51 PM
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Hello Matthew,
Thanks for a great piece. I translated it in French as this libertarian drift of some alleged progressives is confusing a lot of folks here in French Canada. The text is up on my FB page at https://www.facebook.com/note.php?saved&&note_id=10152310800320595
Martin Dufresne
Posted by Let's talk, Monday, 26 November 2012 1:49:34 PM
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