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The Forum > Article Comments > Is Abbott the conservatives' liability? > Comments

Is Abbott the conservatives' liability? : Comments

By Malcolm Colless, published 30/10/2012

Rather than responding directly to these ludicrous claims Abbott should let his policy do the talking.

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'Let his policies do the talking'? What policies would they be? - apart that is from a relentless, bloody-minded negativity and the many promises to negate every forward move introduced by the Labor government.
It is hard to imagine a worse political scenario for Australia than Abbott as PM, Hockey as treasurer, Pyne as anything at all, and the rest of the dis-functional coalition front bench being let loose with with the various cabinet duties.
Posted by GYM-FISH, Tuesday, 30 October 2012 8:18:21 AM
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Good article. Thank you.

“[Liberal Party supporters] are quick to stress that they are not advocating a change in the leader. Then they add the rider: "I can't put my finger on it but there is just something about Tony that worries me."

At this stage of the election cycle it would be foolish for Abbott to be rolling out the Coalition’s policies. Labor has far too much resource to throw at picking at bits and pieces of the total policy framework, taking bits out of context and creating doubt and confusion in the minds of electors. That is what Keating did against Hewsen’s policies in 1992-93.

Instead, what the Coalition needs to be doing is to continue to explain very clearly to the electorate why this government is incompetent, the damage it’s policies are doing to Australia and what it would continue to do if re-elected. The government is incompetent because it is comprised of union thugs who have negligible management experience. What Labor is very good at is thuggery. The Labor members, who are mostly ex-union bosses and apparatchiks, could not have got to the positions they achieved in the union movement unless they were thugs. They learnt the thuggery trade in the union movement and it is all they know. That’s why they behave as they do in Parliament. They know no other way.

Incompetent government – here’s just one example:

Rudd in the 2007 election: “I am a fiscal conservative”
Rudd: took a $4.6 billion NBN to the 2007 election. Then, Conroy got on a plane trip and sold Rudd a ten times bigger NBN – a $46 billion NBN. No cost benefit analysis whatsoever but Rudd and Cabinet signed up to it. Projections show it would cost hundreds of billions to complete and will be obsolete before it is complete. Furthermore, it is another government owned monopoly – the PMG (Post Master General’s Department) revisited. Perfect for enhancing union membership and more funds for Labor’s re-election campaigns.

This is just one of the many atrociously incompetent policies Abbott should be highlighting.
Posted by Peter Lang, Tuesday, 30 October 2012 9:15:25 AM
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There will be a test for the coalition today in parliament, concerning the boat people.
Abbott has pledges in blood, that will concern the libs.
What policies do they have.
Turnbull should be the head man.
Posted by 579, Tuesday, 30 October 2012 9:27:54 AM
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Seeking to let Abbott's policies do the talking is currently akin to seeking a conversation with a deaf mute statue.

If the last election's unsuccessful charade is anything to judge by, the uncosted, unaudited variable grab-bag of so-called Liberal policies which will emerge during the runup to the election will be completely unreliable. Why is Tony not doing something positive about building his team and informing the electors? Is he so ashamed of his party's stance that he cannot allow it to be discussed publicly?
Posted by JohnBennetts, Tuesday, 30 October 2012 9:45:02 AM
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I have advocated for some time that the Coalition should do NO talking at all.

Instead, it should simply be publishing the key graphs that show how effective and capable the Howard/Costello government was, and just how incompetent and wasteful the Rudd/Gillard government is.

Here is a starting list. No doubt there are more.

1. Budget forecasts v outcomes
2. Surplus/deficit
3. Total spending
4. Total revenue
5. Boat arrivals
6. Public service employees
7. Numbers on welfare
8. National debt
9. Unemployment
10. Budget v outcomes for spending, revenue, deficit

I think you will find that, presented with this information, the public will certainly "get it". Then all the Coalition has to do is to develop a plan to show how they are going to fix it.

Oh, and by the way, the $70 billion "black hole" that keeps being raised, as I understand it, is over 5 years which doesn't sound all that unmanageable. I have been baffled why the Coalition spokespeople don't simply say that.
Posted by Herbert Stencil, Tuesday, 30 October 2012 10:20:20 AM
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"Then all the Coalition has to do is to develop a plan to show how they are going to fix it. "

Isn't that the point? The criticism of the Coalition (and Abbott) is that they have no policies (or plan as Herbert puts it). They are not going to come up with convincing policies in the next few months to the election because they do not have any and are unlikely to do so. Policy has never been a Coalition strongpoint. Their apparatchiks are motivated by the fact they don't hold power and that is an unconscionable thought from their point of view.

If one looks at the actions and policies of the present government it is actually quite difficult to distinguish them from the Howard years. Despite being allegedly from the "left" faction of the Labor Party Gillard pursues conservative policies. Her allegiance to the US and Israel is just as puppet like as Howard ever was. She shares many key social policies with Abbott and the points of difference are largely smoke and mirrors wrapped in the rhetoric of political correctness.

Even the currently much lauded (by Labor) Asian Century policy is largely a retread of a report written by Ross Garnault 20+ years ago.

As Chris Hedges brilliantly pointed out yesterday in his Truthdig column the choice is not between Romney and Obama but between corporate capitalism and us. Accordingly he is voting for a third party. Ceteris paribus the same equally applies in Australia. Anybody who claims otherwise is simply not being realistic.
Posted by James O'Neill, Tuesday, 30 October 2012 10:49:29 AM
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The public is simply sick of seeing Gillard and Abbott! I cringe whenever I see either of them.

Both should be replaced ASAP. We need new faces with new ideas. The old melodrama has gone on for far too long.

Gillard and Abbott are both rank opportunists, both driven by psychotic self-interest.

Begone!
Posted by David G, Tuesday, 30 October 2012 10:57:08 AM
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James O'Neill is right about Obama and Romney.What's your choice of war mongerer who will use austerity to finance Wall St's theft and the Fed Reserve's theft via counterfeiting (Quantitative Easing) of our currencies?

If Abbott has any integrity and chooses to back the people instead of the bankers,then the popular media will demonise him.I doubt he will back the people.
Posted by Arjay, Tuesday, 30 October 2012 11:15:19 AM
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Abbott will lead the Liberals to the next election, they have no other choice. Abbott is the best Australian opposition leader ever and there is no need for him to spell out any policies, yet. This Government is giving him more ammunition than he can handle!

As for Malcolm, he will not be Liberal leader for the next election, if ever. There are 3 things about Malcolm, he has brilliant intellect, strong ambition and appaling judgement.

He was leader of the Australian Republic Movement when the referendum was lost (all States voted against it). He found out the hard way that you don't take on the Prime Minister based on a dodgy e-mail (Utegate), and finally why oh why did he try to negotiate an ETS with the government when it was plain at the time that public opinion on this issue was rapidly heading South.

As for Julia, she knew carbon pricing was electoral poison but HAD to do it due to foolish Greens' insatiable demands.
Posted by John M, Tuesday, 30 October 2012 11:27:14 AM
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Is Abbott the conservatives" liability? I believe he is, and history supports my view?
Peter Lang's enduring loyalty is commendable, if misplaced?
History informs us that no long term opposition Leader from either party has ever gone on to win an election?
Roll-back Beasley came close, with 51% of the vote. But not enough in the seats he needed to win, to take govt from Howard.
Ditto fight-back Hewson, in a head to head with Hawke.
Abbott put most members offside with his recent, [Dr No,] attempted intervention, in grass roots branch pre-selection?
And in so doing, exposed that part which others inside the party, can't quite put their finger on?
Arguably, the inner power hungry control freak, my way or the highway intransigence, inflexible, recalcitrant, tyrant?
If only the pulpit pounding, commie hating, homophobic DLP, were still part of the current political landscape, Tony would find his natural home?
Tony only holds his place at the coalitions' helm by one vote, and he has resisted all attempts to reinstall a rebadged work choices, amended with a no disadvantage test!
[I mean, even patently pragmatic Scandinavian socialist democracies, have traded away unfair dismissals, for a larger job start/earn or learn benefit!]
That one vote has since gone scuttling in disgrace, to the cross benches!?
If a spill were held today, those conservatives, with an ear to the ground and or pursuing the female vote, might just opt for a much more moderate, less aggressive Malcolm, [return bill,] Turnbull?
All those battles Julia is fighting for on the front foot; Carbon pricing, border control, the Malaysian solution, will be thoughtfully resolved, with genuine reservations; by a true statesman and a thorough Gentleman?
Leaving Labour with nothing to blame on the coalition?
Which would likely seal Julia's fate as a one term PM, but particularly, if the "promised" surplus fails to manifest!
After all, it is the economy stupid, Quote, unquote.
Rhrosty.
Posted by Rhrosty, Tuesday, 30 October 2012 11:43:49 AM
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Herbert Stencil,

“Here is a starting list. No doubt there are more.

1. Budget forecasts v outcomes
2. Surplus/deficit
3. Total spending
4. Total revenue
5. Boat arrivals
6. Public service employees
7. Numbers on welfare
8. National debt
9. Unemployment
10. Budget v outcomes for spending, revenue, deficit

I think you will find that, presented with this information, the public will certainly "get it".”

I agree this is the approach the Coalition should take. However, I expect the reason they do not do more of this is that the population at large don’t understand charts and figures, or are not interested or get switched off by them,. I think many people do not recognise the connection between the economics and the outcomes they want. I think that is especially true of many of those of Left persuasion. They do not realise that if we want better Health, Education, infrastructure, cities, welfare and expenditure on environmental controls and remediation for example, we need a strong economy. And the stronger the economy the better for society and for people’s well being.

The Left especially do not seem to be able to make the connection. They do not seem to understand, for example, that the $30 billion committed to funding and subsidising renewable energy through to 2020 is pure waste. There are enormous net costs to society and no net benefits. The $30 billion could be far better spent elsewhere or even better left in the productive part of society to allow us to be even better off.

Your starting list of charts is excellent. I commend them to other readers.
Posted by Peter Lang, Tuesday, 30 October 2012 11:47:38 AM
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What makes me laugh is that during the Howard years I remember the
liberals saying labour has no policies, what are their policies there are none.
Labour then replying, you will see our policies before the election.
etc etc.

Does labour have that short of memory ? Oh they do, do they !

So don't be stupid and keep on regurgitating that nonsense.
It is the logical thing to do, so grow up and accept it.
Posted by Bazz, Tuesday, 30 October 2012 12:14:25 PM
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Gym-Fish, no one knows just how good a PM Abbott would turn out to be.
Likewise, no one knows how good a treasurer Hockey would be.

I think they are likely to be quite reasonable ones, and perhaps even
good ones.
The one thing we do know is our current crop are an unmitigated disaster.
Even the labour party itself mumbles that under their breadth.
If labour gets back in I may go to New Zealand for a few years.

Ha Belly, how about a couple of years in YJ8 or ZL5 ? Join me ?
Posted by Bazz, Tuesday, 30 October 2012 12:24:14 PM
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After all, it is the economy stupid, Quote, unquote.
Rhrosty.

No it isn't !
It is energy stupid !
Posted by Bazz, Tuesday, 30 October 2012 12:30:15 PM
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Peter Lang if I said all right wing voter beat their wives, it would be as accurate as you're assertions.
Posted by Kenny, Tuesday, 30 October 2012 12:38:45 PM
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Abbott does not have statesman quality. His only skills so far shown are no, crap, pledges in blood.
How can anyone say he may be a good leader.
With out knowing anything about his economic skills.
They do not talk economics, in fact they do not talk anything that has to do with the welfare of AU.
Foot in mouth disorder, is dangerous.
You can not vote for a blind and mute person.
No matter what you think of the incumbent, the alternative may be dangerous.
No doubt Abbott,s plan is to sack hoards of people, as they do to create an unemployment pool
Labors way is to have people employed, and still aim for a surplus.
Posted by 579, Tuesday, 30 October 2012 2:48:20 PM
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Abbott's three core ideas as revealed to Paul Kelly are good enough for me. The MSM would continue the baseless smears on any new Liberal leader anyway.

The first is a deep commitment to the prudent state typified by surplus budgets, debt reductions, dismantling “Labor values” spending and an attack of sorts on the entitlement culture, an idea pushed by economic spokesman Joe Hockey, long seized by the fiscal task he faces.

Second, the Coalition seeks a rebalancing between enterprise and the environment with a sweeping agenda to dismantle Labor “green and red tape”, purge regulatory complexity, facilitate development, promote northern Australia as an export food bowl and run environmental policies that are more direct and practical. In this sense, carbon tax repudiation, important in its own right, symbolises a decisive switch in values, policy and political culture.

Third, as a social fabric conservative Abbott wants to curb the idea that “government knows best”, limit interference in people’s lives, cut social engineering and, as a perpetual volunteer in his personal life, promote Edmund Burke’s concept of “little platoons"-Abbott’s notion of social communities based on individual initiative and much greater personal responsibility.

http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/andrewbolt/index.php/heraldsun/comments/abbott_the_conservative/
Posted by Peter Bobroff, Tuesday, 30 October 2012 3:52:02 PM
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Of course Abbott is a liability to the Conservative Party.
But a bigger liability is the complete absence of Coalition policies coupled with an incredibly mediocre front bench.
Hockey? Pyne? Bishop? I know - it sounds like the punchline to a bad joke.
Fortunately, the latest polls show Labor almost even with the Coalition, so it's clear that the electorate is wising up.
Hopefully, Labor will be re-elected, as their excellent policy record indicates.
Especially when one considers the following facts:
* Australia has one of the highest per capita incomes in the world;
* Australia's national debt is around one tenth of the average of developed nations;
* Australia's unemployment is enviably low, one of the lowest among developed nations;
* Australia has come through the GFC without even going into recession.
So, there's a good chance that Labor will be re-elected, hopefully with a majority in both houses, so that it can continue its excellent work without the hindrance of the current whining opposition.
What a first class PM Julia Gillard is becoming.
What a joke Abbott is becoming.
Anthony
http://www.observationpoint.com.au
Posted by Anthonyve, Tuesday, 30 October 2012 4:07:19 PM
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579, you talk as if Tony Abbott would be a one man government if the Coalition were elected. How can you sustain that position? They will be like any other government - a team. There are some very talented and experienced people in the Coalition. Tony Abbott is their leader, but the strength of a leader is the degree to which he can encourage members of the team to perform constructively as a team, and to the best of their ability.

Tony Abbott doesn't have the complete suite of skills required, but nor does anybody else. That means that a government simply must draw upon the diversified skills base of the team, and also access the skills and knowledge available within the public service, and also in the wider community.

The reality is that very few of the Labor leaders have ever done anything to do with establishing and running a business, and that is one of the reasons that they have got themselves into the pickle they have. They simply have no idea about the most basic elements of how to run an effective organisation, how to budget accurately and deliver according to those budgets. About the only thing that they are good at is throwing money at those who they think will vote for them in gratitude at the next election. Classy.
Posted by Herbert Stencil, Tuesday, 30 October 2012 4:46:11 PM
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Is Abbott the conservatives' liability?
Malcolm Colless,
Only on Labor's & the wish list. To the intelligent in our society he is not a liability.
Posted by individual, Tuesday, 30 October 2012 4:55:22 PM
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I must say, I like Herbert's idea of just presenting graphs.
Let's look at them one by one.
1. Budget forecasts v outcomes
Austrai is coming in with actuals closer to budget than almost any other developed nation.
2. Surplus/deficit
We're still in surplus, unlike most devloped nations.
3. Total spending
A meaningless number unless compared to something.
4. Total revenue
Affected by world commodity prices, which are not under gov't control, otherwise, looking good.
5. Boat arrivals
Not under Australia's control.
6. Public service employees
Not abnormally high.
7. Numbers on welfare
Low, as our excellent unemployment numbers support.
8. National debt
One of the lowest in the developed world. Looking excellent.
9. Unemployment
Under 6% far better than most of our competitors.
10. Budget v outcomes for spending, revenue, deficit
All in good shape.
This strategy should guarantee Labor's reelection.
Go Gillard/Swann
Anthony
http://www.observationpoint.com.a
Posted by Anthonyve, Tuesday, 30 October 2012 5:06:20 PM
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I see a lot of public servants on this site backing a criminal Labor.They would rather see us go into more debt so they keep their jobs.The Coalition traditionally does a slash and burn on un-necessary PS jobs to cut the debt.

The same rules should apply to the PS as in private enterprise.When times are tough,sheltered workshops have to go.
Posted by Arjay, Tuesday, 30 October 2012 5:46:54 PM
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backing a criminal Labor.
Arjay,
Einstein once said this; "I fear the day when technology overlaps with our humanity.
The world will then only have a generation of idiots."
Considering the emphasis on computers & ipads etc. in our education system i.e. (Kevin 07) a laptop for every student ? Hmmh !
Posted by individual, Tuesday, 30 October 2012 6:34:06 PM
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Isnt it interesting that Herberts list does not include interest rates. hmmm
Posted by mikk, Tuesday, 30 October 2012 7:31:56 PM
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Good one Mikk. I asked for additions. Go for it.
Posted by Herbert Stencil, Tuesday, 30 October 2012 8:33:31 PM
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True, interest rates are falling.
Another clearly measurable sign that this Labor Government is managing the economy extremely well.
And another reason for another term of the kind of high quality government that Labor typically brings to the table.
Gillard for PM in 2013.
Or alternatively, ABA.
Anybody but Abbott - the master of misogyny; the hero of hopelessness; the furher of failure.
Anthony
http://www.observationpoint.com.au
Posted by Anthonyve, Tuesday, 30 October 2012 10:42:26 PM
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This has been an intriguing discussion, conducted in a welcome spirit of inquiry.

Herbert Stencil posted ten excellent criteria for assessing government competance and comparing regimes. He noted, appropriately, “no doubt there are more”.

Here is a supplementary list. How many of these should we regard as relevant in assessing the relative successes/failures of recent governments and competing parties?

1. Economic growth
2. Job participation rates
3. Income per person
4. Economic freedom
5. Interest rates
6. Inflation rates
7. Taxation as a % of GDP
8. Value of the Aussie dollar
9. International credit ratings
10. Awards such as ‘world’s best treasurer’
11. Promises broken with no sound justification
12. Promises broken by force of external circumstance
13. Blatant lies to the people (as in statements made knowingly untrue)
14. Ministerial sackings and resignations in disgrace
15. Backbenchers convicted of criminal offences

Cheers,
AA
Posted by Alan Austin, Wednesday, 31 October 2012 12:38:37 AM
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Have you ever noticed that conservative posters like Herbert Stencil and Alan Austin simply want to judge a government based economic issues see the AA list above. These people have no understanding of the society we live in, that's correct we all live in a society not an economy. Granted economic issues are important but they are not the be all and end all of having a great society to live in.
Just spent a couple of weeks with one of our near neighbors, the people of Vanuatu, living with the locals. On the AA list their society performs poorly, but I don't think they much care about GDP and international credit ratings (I don't think they have one). Despite having little in the way of material things, no one has a mobile or an Ipad, you will not find a more happier and loving people.
Their main concerns are education for their children, proper health services etc, things we in Australia take for granted. Australia is Vanuatu's major aid sponsor and the people there "very much like Australia". Our aid money, about $70m, is being very well spent.
Australians could learn a lot from the Melanesian people.
Posted by Paul1405, Wednesday, 31 October 2012 6:38:11 AM
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- Appointees to key positions with links to the government of the days party.
- Suicide rates (possibly with a factor for single occupant, single vehicle fatalaties)
- Levels of homelessness, alcoholism etc. eg things that provide indicators of the real pressures on people.

R0bert
Posted by R0bert, Wednesday, 31 October 2012 6:54:55 AM
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Herbert stencil. Govt works as a team. The coalition have not shown they work as a team in opposition, and neither has Newman in QLD.
Belchin Joe was a dictator, Newman is a dictator, and Abbott is a dictator.
The amount of times he has put his foot in mouth, and yet he remains leader, says heaps about the depth of quality in the coalition.
Abbott's front bench is a sham, and dangerous.
At this point in time there is no option, but to stay with labor.
While Abbott is leader, they will never get my vote.
Posted by 579, Wednesday, 31 October 2012 7:41:38 AM
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I'm with 579.
The prospect of Abbott as PM is an invite to disaster.
And what's worse is that there's no depth to his Shadow team.
Hockey, Pyne, Bishop, Andrews, et al; an extraordinarily inept group.
Anthony
http://www.observationpoint.com.au
Posted by Anthonyve, Wednesday, 31 October 2012 10:02:47 AM
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R0bert,

According to Alan Austin our international credit rating is more important than such things as alcoholism/drug addiction, suicide, poverty etc, they don't get a mention, in fact the first 9 of his top 15 are economic based, his other 6 are a political attack on the government itself. According to the conservatives, who cares about a poor glue sniffing child who necks himself, as long as we have a AAA credit rating so the big banks can borrow O/S at the best possible interest rate.
Posted by Paul1405, Wednesday, 31 October 2012 10:07:16 AM
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Hi Paul,

Are we at cross purposes here, perhaps? Probably my fault for being less direct than I might have been.

The 15 supplementary variables were not posited as a list of important values at all. You are absolutely right that generosity, sharing, integrity, love, sacrifice, truthfulness, leisure, creativity, music, dance and telling stories to children are way more vital to a healthy community than economic growth and interest rates.

I’ve also spent enormously rewarding periods working in Aboriginal communities, in New Guinea and in the outer Eastern islands of Indonesia. Have learned heaps from people in these amazing communities about what life should be about - as it seems you have also.

That list was simply 15 factors on which it can now be positively demonstrated that the current reformist Government of Labor, the Greens and the Independents has performed much better than earlier Coalition Governments. That’s all.

This was to challenge the view, above, that “Labor leaders … simply have no idea about the most basic elements of how to run an effective organisation, how to budget accurately and deliver according to those budgets.” I think that can be shown to be not true.

Which is not to say everything the present Government does is to be applauded. Far from it.

We are probably in agreement pretty much, Paul, on most things. Including on the wish that both sides of Australian politics valued non-material aspirations more than the financial.

Cheers, AA
Posted by Alan Austin, Wednesday, 31 October 2012 10:52:42 AM
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My apologies Alan, your last post shows that I misunderstood your position. I was wrong about what I perceived to be your views, and again I say sorry.
I love the people of Vanuatu, I'm jealous of them, in many ways they have everything, and many of us, rich in materials, yet oh so poor in so many other ways.

Cheers Paul.
Posted by Paul1405, Wednesday, 31 October 2012 11:28:05 AM
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No problem, Paul. All good.

You are greatly blessed to have been to Vanuatu. I worked in New Guinea (Churches of Christ missions) many years ago with a couple from New Hebrides - as it was then. Just the most wonderful people.

My Dad has been there several times working as a volunteer, and my son was a teacher there for a short time recently. So I have heard lots about the people and seen heaps of photos.

I agree with you that we in the West - I'm now in France - have much to learn from less materialistic communities.

Hope to get there myself one day, Paul. We shall see.
Posted by Alan Austin, Wednesday, 31 October 2012 11:51:49 AM
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The coalition have lost the plot, they continually divert away from the politics that matter to AU.
A mob of six graders could do what Abbott is doing.
Their front bench are not with the program at hand, or they are not allowed to talk politics.
The same negative agenda, every day.
I believe they are running a DLP agenda, they are certainly not running a liberal agenda.
The last liberal in parliament was Howard.
Posted by 579, Wednesday, 31 October 2012 3:17:02 PM
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The last liberal in parliament was Howard.
579,
so, going by your measuring of standards Curtain would then have been the last Labor Prime Minister.
Posted by individual, Wednesday, 31 October 2012 8:22:17 PM
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579, I must agree with you, the conservative front bench looks rather lackluster. The Mad Monk has a history of being a poor performer. I think it would be a huge mistake if Australia should vote this feeble bunch into office.
I do question the conservatives claim that they are the paramount economic managers that they believe they are, their past record seems to be nothing more than smoke and mirrors with little of substance to back their claim. The conservatives in Australia have in the past had the good fortune off being in office when international conditions have been on the up and up. I wonder how well the conservatives would have managed the GFC, given the chance. The secret of conservative economic management is based on cut, cut, cut in areas of most need, add in massive middle class welfare and do little else, a steady as she goes philosophy.
In the past, when the conservatives have been in office and there has been a major economic catastrophe hit, they have lacked policy and direction to deal with problems. Under these conditions the conservatives tend to preach doom and gloom,adopting a "batten down the hatches" mentality, avoiding government intervention believing the market will correct itself, eventually, and then hopefully we can ride out the storm. A philosophy which has been totally discredited and seen to be a complete failure.
Posted by Paul1405, Thursday, 1 November 2012 6:38:11 AM
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579 & Paul1045,
I must say you two really are a special set of numbers. You are very much like my senior line bureaucrat. Hugely impressed by certificates & presentation & achievement is measured by accreditation whilst the whole show is falling into a heap all around. Actual useable performance is totally disregarded. I only hope that people with that mentality will become less in numbers as the next federal election draws near. Those of us who work & think can no longer afford to keep the likes of you. Sad but true. Instead of putting your efforts into denigrating the capable may I suggest you ty & pull your own weight out there instead of hanging off the public service's apron. You certainly don't make it sound like you know what work is & how to do it.
Posted by individual, Thursday, 1 November 2012 6:56:23 AM
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I have no idea what he said. The noalition will slash and burn, Newman is in that department. Give to the rich and let the rest fend for them self. Always the same agenda.
When times are tough the people traditionally vote labor.
The coalition seem to think we are doing it extraordinarily tough.
The carbon tax has run out of steam, with blunders by the score from the opposition. Not one prediction got over the line.
Surely they can come up with a leader that can talk rationally with-out the daily dose of blunder.
Posted by 579, Thursday, 1 November 2012 7:11:47 AM
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Good morning all,

Interesting exchanges here.

@individual: You appear to be challenging 579 and Paul1045 in your last post - and they are certainly capable of speaking for themselves.

But you seem to be leading with your chin when you say "the whole show is falling into a heap all around" with regard to current federal Government.

On asylum seekers and Indigenous affairs there seems not a cigarette paper between the two major political groupings - both equally bereft of vision.

But on economic progress, legislative achievement and ministerial competence, the evidence shows they are in different universes.

Earlier, these 15 criteria were listed:

1. Economic growth
2. Job participation rates
3. Income per person
4. Economic freedom
5. Interest rates
6. Inflation rates
7. Taxation as a % of GDP
8. Value of the Aussie dollar
9. International credit ratings
10. Awards such as ‘world’s best treasurer’
11. Promises broken with no sound justification
12. Promises broken by force of external circumstance
13. Blatant lies to the people (as in statements made knowingly untrue)
14. Ministerial sackings and resignations in disgrace
15. Backbenchers convicted of criminal offences

These are areas where the current wonky amalgam of Labor, Greens and Independents has run rings around the previous Howard Government.

So in what way is what show falling into what heap?

Do you have any actual evidence to support this claim? If not 579 and Paul1045 probably don’t need be troubled too much by your ad hominem slurs.

Cheers, AA
Posted by Alan Austin, Thursday, 1 November 2012 7:19:14 AM
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579 is absolutely correct.
Today's Age is reporting falls in the costs of many houshold consumables with the cost of living total coming in at lower than average wage increases.
Absolute, empirical evidence that Abbott and his band of con artists have gotten out of bed every morning and lied, day after day after day, to the Australian people.
And even with measurable data proving his daily lies, he is still persisting with them;
thus proving beyond doubt that Abbott is totally lacking in strategic thinking ability, as well as being an addicted liar.
Not a wondeful combination in a potential - god help us - leader of our nation.
Anthony
http://www.observationpoint.com.au
Posted by Anthonyve, Thursday, 1 November 2012 7:21:53 AM
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"Those of us who work & think can no longer afford to keep the likes of you" individual, I will put my work history up against yours any day.
Over 40 years in the workforce, as a professional engineer, adding value to society in a practical way not being a desk jockey, building things. what have you contributed to Australia?
Raised a family in Australia, never worked for the PS, always worked in the private sector, and never collected the dole.
Seen every Australian government from Pig Iron Bob to Gillard, so I understand history.
Are you a member of generation 'U' university educated and useless!
Now put up your wrap, selling life insurance to little old ladies which they don't need? What is it.
Posted by Paul1405, Thursday, 1 November 2012 7:53:23 AM
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Paul1405,
Engineer eh. Mate you sound exactly like my EO. So busy thumping his chest that he can't see the show from falling into a heap. But never mind, as long as the AAA ratings keep the tossing circle happy.
If you can't see that things aren't falling into a heap than you'd better start talking by those who are losing their jobs, their homes & their dignity. All because of those academic experts who think themselves into believing how wonderful they are. No wonder you're so taken in by Labor. That's exactly the kind of spin that overlooks reality.
I am in an industry which is at the mercy of consulting engineers & let me tell you it's not their competence that makes things work, it's the workers who perpetually rectify & modify those engineers' follies. As to you question as to what I have contributed to Australia ? A lot more than many Australians I can assure you. One thing I have never done is leave a job for another just for money like so many here do. Nothing I have ever put up or built had to be torn down again because it didn't work. I constantly have to modify our engineers' master pieces. If only I could reveal to you how much taxpayers money these people waste you'd probably agree with me. Unfortunately, telling the truth is an indictable offence in our society.
Posted by individual, Thursday, 1 November 2012 2:12:24 PM
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Another day of nothing. Rumblings in the libs party room. They are becoming increasingly nervous. Abbott's weaknesses are showing.
Abbott now does not believe in opinion polls.
Is Turnbull up for the challenge.
Posted by 579, Thursday, 1 November 2012 2:33:00 PM
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In the letter box today, a leaflet claiming hospitals will be paying an extra 600,000 $ / yr for gas and power charges, as a result of the carbon tax. This was authorized by Wendy lovell MLC.
There is no carbon tax on hospitals.
Why do the liberals resort to deliberate lies, and send them in the post.
Posted by 579, Thursday, 1 November 2012 3:41:23 PM
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579 raises an excellent point.
In fact, Tanya Plibesek spoke about this at length during Question Time today.
It turns out that the Federal Government has handed over >100MAUD to the State Gov't, but they haven't yet cashed the cheque.
In fact, far from being cut, federal health expenditure has risen by 26% over the last - I think it's - four years.
I'm wondering if the Liberals under Abbott are taking a leaf out of Romney's playbook. The old Mittwell has been caught out on endless lies and back flips during this presidential campaign cycle.
Another issue raised in Question Time today is how can it be that the Liberals have voted AGAINST a bill to allow more competition in our international wheat sales, even though the wheat farmers desperately want it.
It seems that rural Coalition members were told to shut up and toe the party line because Abbott doesn't want Labor to have a win, even if it's good for our farmers, and the nation as a whole.
Oh, yeah, what a great PM he would be.... Not!
Anthony
http://www.observationpoint.com.au
Posted by Anthonyve, Thursday, 1 November 2012 4:17:22 PM
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Something's in the making. This sudden flood of Labor biased comments is starting to become too obvious. Are federal Labor going down the same path as the Qld Bligh Government & offer thousands of meaningless Public Service positions just so the next Coalition Government will be faced with the same dilemma as Campbell Newman by having to make themselves unpopular for having to cut this unsustainable workforce ?
Posted by individual, Thursday, 1 November 2012 5:27:34 PM
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individual, you seem to be harboring a rather strong resentment for workers with qualifications
You say "it's not their (engineers) competence that makes things work, it's the workers who perpetually rectify & modify those engineers' follies," from this I gather you are some kind of 'Super Tool' dashing here there and everywhere righting the wrongs of the gross incompetent, an unsung hero. You then go on to say:
"Nothing I (individual) have ever put up or built had to be torn down again because it didn't work. I constantly have to modify our engineers' master pieces" Society is so fortunate to have 'Super Tool' on the job, what would we do without you, society is eternally in your gratitude.
As my old man would often say "Son, anyone who has never made a mistake, has never made anything." Seems my ols man was wrong, then again he never met you individual.
Posted by Paul1405, Thursday, 1 November 2012 5:34:53 PM
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Arrrgggghhhh !
What bl*&^dy liars and hypocrites !
I just heard our illustrious immigration minister say;

"we are sending them back by plane to Sri Lanka and not risking the
lives of our sailors by towing them back."

He made it a dig at the opposition, but of course the reason they are
sending them by air is because of the distance.
Why couldn't he have just said we are sending by air because it is
cheaper than tying up a naval ship to tow them all the way there
Posted by Bazz, Friday, 2 November 2012 9:12:11 AM
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Paul1405,
Ah, our resident engineer spotted a loophole & presto, takes advantage of it. Well I did say nothing I ever put up or built had to be torn down again because it didn't work.
I must humbly admit that I failed to say that nothing I ever built at great expense to the taxpayer by unwaveringly ignoring the advise of people who have experience & impose my "expertise" albeit only on paper signed by someone equally incompetent, onto some equally incompetent & unaccountable bureaucrat & demand being paid unreasonably well from taxpayers money only to have it torn down again & rely on the ingenuity of some low-life worker's improvisation to rectify the design faults & make it work.
I do not harbour resentment for competent workers I however loath the wasteful arrogance of so-called qualified experts whose only expertise appears to be having a hold over incompetent bureaucrats blowing our dough in return for crap facilities & plants.
Posted by individual, Friday, 2 November 2012 5:34:48 PM
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Driven by the church is not a good situation, especially when there is several different denominations out there.
Women's issues of abortion, same sex unions. How can anyone with pre set ideas handle those questions.
The church have made a mockery of their rulings, and have no place in politics.
Posted by 579, Sunday, 4 November 2012 10:44:03 AM
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Hmmmm. Not sure, 579. Perhaps it depends what we mean by "driven by" and what we mean by "the church".

Many nations including Australia have had effective leaders who have been faithful church members.

And, of course, not all churches are the same in what they require of members, including on the issues you mention - abortion and same sex unions.

The problems with Mr Abbott and the church seem to exist on several levels. Most disturbingly, he was shown on national television to have blatantly lied about even meeting Cardinal Pell, as satirised here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZvYzLIywCiA

The reason for that meeting was explored to some extent here and elsewhere, but never explained satisfactorily.

http://www.independentaustralia.net/2011/politics/while-abbott-is-opposition-leader-gillard-is-safe/

If there have been other meetings between the two, and what transpired, we will probably never know.

This is probably one of the issues underlying Mr Abbott's continuing poor standing in the polls.

But is it fair to generalise from this to all church members who are party leaders, or to all churches?
Posted by Alan Austin, Sunday, 4 November 2012 8:12:43 PM
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Abbott as a former inmate of the catholic church, i believe would have pre set ideas and belief. The mentioned situations are important to the persons involved, especially women's issues Contraception and Abortion.
Why would Abbott want to cover up a meeting with the head monk. Maybe it had something to do with the investigation that is going through the catholic church now.
I was not talking about religion in general, my comment was specific to Abbott.
Posted by 579, Monday, 5 November 2012 7:30:09 AM
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